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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Lobby wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
As usual, the consensus (or that of the vocal minority who frequent these threads more than the more reasonable posters) seems to be to continue to demonise asylum seekers... people in the main fleeing from some form of tyranny or violence.

What Hermes' post suggests your ire could be more productively aimed at organised crime structures who are really doing the damage in this situation, world wide.


And at politicians announcing open door policies with very little thought for the consequences of their actions; actions which have, in Hermes' words "showered these networks with unimaginable quantities of cash and resources".


Yes, that too.

There is a very real possibility for millions of people to be on the move in the near future, mass migratory type movements we've never seen. Climate change alone is going to force people to move and coupled with that will be battles for resources as simple as food and water.

Simplistic solutions ain't going to cut it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:51 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Lobby wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
As usual, the consensus (or that of the vocal minority who frequent these threads more than the more reasonable posters) seems to be to continue to demonise asylum seekers... people in the main fleeing from some form of tyranny or violence.

What Hermes' post suggests your ire could be more productively aimed at organised crime structures who are really doing the damage in this situation, world wide.


And at politicians announcing open door policies with very little thought for the consequences of their actions; actions which have, in Hermes' words "showered these networks with unimaginable quantities of cash and resources".


Yes, that too.

There is a very real possibility for millions of people to be on the move in the near future, mass migratory type movements we've never seen. Climate change alone is going to force people to move and coupled with that will be battles for resources as simple as food and water.

Simplistic solutions ain't going to cut it.


You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:59 pm 
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assfly wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Feel sorry for the kids, but the adults know the risks of crossing. We have no legal obligation to accept these illegal immigrants (that's what they are, they're not refugees), and no moral obligation either.

Good on Italy for saying 'non'!

I think the best way to tackle it without a humanitarian disaster is to firstly arrest all the NGO crews out in the Med helping them, secondly arrest and execute any of the people smugglers who are caught. Then no harm comes to the migrants, and they can stay in Africa.


What about the migrants from the Middle East and South East Asia? Do they also have to stay in Africa?


Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
assfly wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Feel sorry for the kids, but the adults know the risks of crossing. We have no legal obligation to accept these illegal immigrants (that's what they are, they're not refugees), and no moral obligation either.

Good on Italy for saying 'non'!

I think the best way to tackle it without a humanitarian disaster is to firstly arrest all the NGO crews out in the Med helping them, secondly arrest and execute any of the people smugglers who are caught. Then no harm comes to the migrants, and they can stay in Africa.


What about the migrants from the Middle East and South East Asia? Do they also have to stay in Africa?


Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


Correct. The med has to close.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


Thankfully most of the people who make these decisions have more humanity than you do.

I'm sure if you were born into the situations these people are, you would also do everything in your power to improve your situation.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:08 pm 
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assfly wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


Thankfully most of the people who make these decisions have more humanity than you do.

I'm sure if you were born into the situations these people are, you would also do everything in your power to improve your situation.


Ok, give me a number, and confirm to me that if we move absolutely everyone out of the shithole they came from, then the same shithole will not have been created here.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Having sympathy doesn't mean you ignore the reality of the constraints of infrastructure.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
Ok, give me a number, and confirm to me that if we move absolutely everyone out of the shithole they came from, then the same shithole will not have been created here.


Number of what?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Lobby wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
As usual, the consensus (or that of the vocal minority who frequent these threads more than the more reasonable posters) seems to be to continue to demonise asylum seekers... people in the main fleeing from some form of tyranny or violence.

What Hermes' post suggests your ire could be more productively aimed at organised crime structures who are really doing the damage in this situation, world wide.


And at politicians announcing open door policies with very little thought for the consequences of their actions; actions which have, in Hermes' words "showered these networks with unimaginable quantities of cash and resources".


Yes, that too.

There is a very real possibility for millions of people to be on the move in the near future, mass migratory type movements we've never seen. Climate change alone is going to force people to move and coupled with that will be battles for resources as simple as food and water.

Simplistic solutions ain't going to cut it.


You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.

Or we could address the root causes.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Having sympathy doesn't mean you ignore the reality of the constraints of infrastructure.


I agree, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but I certainly know a shit answer when I see one.

What is happening now isn't working, we need a better way of doing it. But forcing people to stay in "Africa' ffs isn't being sympathetic or rational or in any way helpful to the debate.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:15 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?


I think you'll find the French are well antiquated to that method, with poor results.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:16 pm 
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assfly wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Having sympathy doesn't mean you ignore the reality of the constraints of infrastructure.


I agree, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but I certainly know a shit answer when I see one.

What is happening now isn't working, we need a better way of doing it. But forcing people to stay in "Africa' ffs isn't being sympathetic or rational or in any way helpful to the debate.

TBF the best case scenario is they don't feel the need to leave which may mean people who want a better life stay and make it better.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
assfly wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


Thankfully most of the people who make these decisions have more humanity than you do.

I'm sure if you were born into the situations these people are, you would also do everything in your power to improve your situation.


Ok, give me a number, and confirm to me that if we move absolutely everyone out of the shithole they came from, then the same shithole will not have been created here.


This. Countries are a product of the people inhabiting them, and their culture.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:19 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Absolutely wrong. Firing money at them will not create institutions and stability - precursor to any and all wealth and development growth.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:21 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
assfly wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


Thankfully most of the people who make these decisions have more humanity than you do.

I'm sure if you were born into the situations these people are, you would also do everything in your power to improve your situation.


Ok, give me a number, and confirm to me that if we move absolutely everyone out of the shithole they came from, then the same shithole will not have been created here.


This. Countries are a product of the people inhabiting them, and their culture.


It is incredibly racist to say that Nigeria is Nigeria because Nigerians live there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:24 pm 
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nardol wrote:
Absolutely wrong. Firing money at them will not create institutions and stability - precursor to any and all wealth and development growth.

Its a massively sifferent continent. Money in Ghana may well work. In DRC not so much. Infrastructure there will though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:24 pm 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
bimboman wrote:
assfly wrote:
nardol wrote:
send them back is the only way


But it's not the only way. Which North African country will have them? Will they simply form an orderly queue to disembark and think "ah well I tried"?

You can't underestimate the desperation of these people. They'd sooner throw themselves overboard and try to swim to Europe than simply go back home.



They're the rich from their countries , they've found 1,000's of dollars to get on the boat, their desperation is "value for money" mainly.


Many have stumped up a couple of thousand in cash for the smugglers to move them. No question of that. Usually the money is gathered up from extended family and pooled for a young man to travel. By definition these are not the neediest people in the regions they leave behind.

But when I was living in Italy, criminal networks had developed the whole routine to a point where you could travel now and pay later. Many of the street hawkers you see in Italian cities carrying tat and sprinting off whenever the cops turn up are such guys. A lot of them in Florence were from Senegal. From the moment they arrive on Italian soil they are effectively the property of the bad guys and have to work their debt off over several years. It's an extremely unpleasant and violent underworld by all accounts. Penalties are harsh for those that don't sell enough. But so long as the arrivals are able to enter the country and sell stuff, the crooks will make their money and the whole circle will keep turning. Very, very, very few of them get through the other end and then manage to integrate themselves into local life effectively. I knew only three. Big tough ombres that bar/club owners liked to have on their doors. The rest were just fodder for rackets run by organised crime.

Of course, this is news to precisely no one who's paid attention. I mentioned a year or two ago how wiretaps on criminal figures in Rome had revealed that organised crime now sees people smuggling as the central plank of their business. Incredibly, it's overtaken the trafficking and selling of drugs in terms of profitability. Their 'people' have key positions in ports and landing sites across southern Italy and Sicily where they manage arrivals into the networks. This is a jaw dropping revelation that reveals just how serious the issue is. And Merkel's open-doors policy showered these networks with unimaginable quantities of cash and resources. Not just in Italy but all around Europe. No one did more to boost organised crime. The problem is not going to go away until the flow of human cargo is properly stemmed. I have no difficulty understanding how politicians determined to stamp this stuff out have been voted into office in Italy where the issue is so intricately bound up with organised crime. Whether the new politicians can change anything in the long term is a whole other question though.


Europe as a supposed Union has dealt with the crisis in a fcuked up manner - there's no centralized plan to deal with the issue which is why you've got some countries at the forefront taking on a massively disproportionate amount of the burden, countries like Germany, Greece and Italy while other's do fcuk all


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.


A couple of forecasts regarding climate change have the equatorial regions rendered uninhabitable.

Think about how many people live in the 30 degrees of latitude straddling the equator. Imagine ice melt stopping the Atlantic Conveyor in conjunction with that shift. You'd have half the UK uninhabitable or incapable of supporting any population density.

People all over the planet are going to be on the move. We need to work out how we're going to feed everyone and provide energy. Push factors....? small change.

One factor re. asylum seekers that never really gets attention is the smuggling. Hermes' has specifically outlined that aspect in his excellent post and no-one wants to talk about addressing that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Lobby wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
As usual, the consensus (or that of the vocal minority who frequent these threads more than the more reasonable posters) seems to be to continue to demonise asylum seekers... people in the main fleeing from some form of tyranny or violence.

What Hermes' post suggests your ire could be more productively aimed at organised crime structures who are really doing the damage in this situation, world wide.


And at politicians announcing open door policies with very little thought for the consequences of their actions; actions which have, in Hermes' words "showered these networks with unimaginable quantities of cash and resources".


Yes, that too.

There is a very real possibility for millions of people to be on the move in the near future, mass migratory type movements we've never seen. Climate change alone is going to force people to move and coupled with that will be battles for resources as simple as food and water.

Simplistic solutions ain't going to cut it.


You are dead wrong. The only solution that will cut it is the most simple. They cannot move to Europe.


that should work a treat....die in your own country and leave us alone except if we need something....cant imagine a problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:28 pm 
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assfly wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
Ok, give me a number, and confirm to me that if we move absolutely everyone out of the shithole they came from, then the same shithole will not have been created here.


Number of what?


The number of people that Europe should accept to avoid being viewed as inhumane.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Last edited by Leinster in London on Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
assfly wrote:
englishchief wrote:
Feel sorry for the kids, but the adults know the risks of crossing. We have no legal obligation to accept these illegal immigrants (that's what they are, they're not refugees), and no moral obligation either.

Good on Italy for saying 'non'!

I think the best way to tackle it without a humanitarian disaster is to firstly arrest all the NGO crews out in the Med helping them, secondly arrest and execute any of the people smugglers who are caught. Then no harm comes to the migrants, and they can stay in Africa.


What about the migrants from the Middle East and South East Asia? Do they also have to stay in Africa?


Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


the Paddy in London :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:28 pm 
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I'm fairly optimistic that improvements in technology, trade and education will be the rising tide that raises all boats, and open borders should become the norm eventually. We aren't there yet though, and rushing too quickly into it could lead to a backlash.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Absolutely wrong. Firing money at them will not create institutions and stability - precursor to any and all wealth and development growth.

Its a massively sifferent continent. Money in Ghana may well work. In DRC not so much. Infrastructure there will though.


Fair point. Well made.

Very few countries stable enough where investment would pay off though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:30 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.


A couple of forecasts regarding climate change have the equatorial regions rendered uninhabitable.

Think about how many people live in the 30 degrees of latitude straddling the equator. Imagine ice melt stopping the Atlantic Conveyor in conjunction with that shift. You'd have half the UK uninhabitable or incapable of supporting any population density.

People all over the planet are going to be on the move. We need to work out how we're going to feed everyone and provide energy. Push factors....? small change.

One factor re. asylum seekers that never really gets attention is the smuggling. Hermes' has specifically outlined that aspect in his excellent post and no-one wants to talk about addressing that.


Half the UK already is uninhabitable. No one lives north of Leeds. Its all moors.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:33 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.


A couple of forecasts regarding climate change have the equatorial regions rendered uninhabitable.

Think about how many people live in the 30 degrees of latitude straddling the equator. Imagine ice melt stopping the Atlantic Conveyor in conjunction with that shift. You'd have half the UK uninhabitable or incapable of supporting any population density.

People all over the planet are going to be on the move. We need to work out how we're going to feed everyone and provide energy. Push factors....? small change.

One factor re. asylum seekers that never really gets attention is the smuggling. Hermes' has specifically outlined that aspect in his excellent post and no-one wants to talk about addressing that.

Absolutely. Addressing climate change is not just about Africans migrating to Europe. Its a global issue. And I think it can be solved.
The smugglers are an issue. But when there is money to be made, catxhing them will just allow others to step in. Mind, that shouldnt halt the chase.
What worries me is the attitude of send them back. Where? Why would Libya, Morocco or Tunisia accept migrants from a different country and culture when far richer countries wont? And if noone will take them do they float around on the Med forever? Its not a solution.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Leinster in London wrote:
The number of people that Europe should accept to avoid being viewed as inhumane.


That's irrational. And I'm not accusing Europe of being inhumane, on the contrary I believe places like Spain and Italy have been incredibly accommodating thus far. It's your Daily Mail-esque solutions that are ridiculous.

My point is that you can't ignore the problem, it won't go away. The world actually isn't that big, there will always be a knock on effect. Like it or not, migrants want to come to Europe and they will die trying.

Obviously the main solution is to have an environment where people want to stay in their home countries. That is not something that can be achieved by pushing boats back or through the barrel of a gun. It involves working together with said 'shitholes' to come up with a solution, and doing so with an attitude that is better than yours.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:35 pm 
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assfly wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
The number of people that Europe should accept to avoid being viewed as inhumane.


That's irrational. And I'm not accusing Europe of being inhumane, on the contrary I believe places like Spain and Italy have been incredibly accommodating thus far. It's your Daily Mail-esque solutions that are ridiculous.

My point is that you can't ignore the problem, it won't go away. The world actually isn't that big, there will always be a knock on effect. Like it or not, migrants want to come to Europe and they will die trying.

Obviously the main solution is to have an environment where people want to stay in their home countries. That is not something that can be achieved by pushing boats back or through the barrel of a gun. It involves working together with said 'shitholes' to come up with a solution, and doing so with an attitude that is better than yours.

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:35 pm 
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A consequence of the largely open door policy is seing the rise of certain parties in Europe.

Front national PVV etc


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
I'm fairly optimistic that improvements in technology, trade and education will be the rising tide that raises all boats, and open borders should become the norm eventually. We aren't there yet though, and rushing too quickly into it could lead to a backlash.


Why should open borders become the norm?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:40 pm 
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nardol wrote:
A consequence of the largely open door policy is seing the rise of certain parties in Europe.

Front national PVV etc

The Italian parties that came into in power recently too, in part anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Santa wrote:
Andalu wrote:
I'm fairly optimistic that improvements in technology, trade and education will be the rising tide that raises all boats, and open borders should become the norm eventually. We aren't there yet though, and rushing too quickly into it could lead to a backlash.


Why should open borders become the norm?

Because someone will need to fill the empty flats when our great-grandchildren are on Mars.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Santa wrote:
Andalu wrote:
I'm fairly optimistic that improvements in technology, trade and education will be the rising tide that raises all boats, and open borders should become the norm eventually. We aren't there yet though, and rushing too quickly into it could lead to a backlash.


Why should open borders become the norm?

Because someone will need to fill the empty flats when our great-grandchildren are on Mars.


Makes more sense than a Farva post I suppose.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Was slightly tongue in cheek but I'm talking about a distant future. Don't see our current problems continuing forever unless there is a global catastrophe that sends us back into the stone age.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Andalu wrote:
Was slightly tongue in cheek but I'm talking about a distant future. Don't see our current problems continuing forever unless there is a global catastrophe that sends us back into the stone age.


Can you explain why borders should be open.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Santa wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Was slightly tongue in cheek but I'm talking about a distant future. Don't see our current problems continuing forever unless there is a global catastrophe that sends us back into the stone age.


Can you explain why borders should be open.


Can you explain why people should be allowed to drown in the Med?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Santa wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Was slightly tongue in cheek but I'm talking about a distant future. Don't see our current problems continuing forever unless there is a global catastrophe that sends us back into the stone age.


Can you explain why borders should be open.


Population of New Zealand would be 50m at least with open borders. Japan, Italy and UK all handle that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Population of New Zealand would be 50m at least with open borders.


Proportionally, that will mean that the Whitelock family will grow to 30,000 people, completely dominating every rugby team on the islands.


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