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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:08 pm 
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assfly wrote:
beachboy wrote:
It is a Catch 22. Surely by allowing the people smuggling boats to land/be accepted on the European coastline you are encouraging (hundreds of) thousands of people to make perilous journeys to the Med and then to take a highly risky sea journey. That is surely a lot worse. Those that are keen to help together with governments could rather encourage people to apply via an office in their home country with lower entry criteria where the proper criminal/war crime checks can be done and the not so strong or wealthy would have a chance. That would be a better solution to control entry and give some the chance to better their lives.


You have a very idealistic view of the world. It just simply doesn't work that way.

Humans make these incredible journeys not because they can or want to, it's because they are willing to risk their lives (and their family's lives) to improve their situation. I can't even contemplate what sort of mindset you have to be in to make that decision.

For me, the only solution is to work with these countries to tighten their borders and - as an end goal - help improve their situations so that the people don't want to leave, or at least the cost will appear to outweigh the benefits.



You want countiries to ban people with passports leaving ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:10 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
You want countiries to ban people with passports leaving ?


Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:12 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
As usual, the consensus (or that of the vocal minority who frequent these threads more than the more reasonable posters) seems to be to continue to demonise asylum seekers... people in the main fleeing from some form of tyranny or violence.

What Hermes' post suggests your ire could be more productively aimed at organised crime structures who are really doing the damage in this situation, world wide.



As usual , there's posters who use the term asylum seekers rather than migrants even though the fact point to them not being asylum seekers at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:13 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
You want countiries to ban people with passports leaving ?


Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.


Quote:
For me, the only solution is to work with these countries to tighten their borders and - as an end goal - help improve their situations so that the people don't want to leave, or at least the cost will appear to outweigh the benefits.



Who's borders do you want tightened ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:16 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Who's borders do you want tightened ?


The countries where the most migrants come from. Part of the problem is the fluid borders that exist in some places. I accept that you can't fence and guard the entire border of Nigeria, but perhaps some technical assistance can be provided to ensure better monitoring of popular smuggling routes. Passports don't even come into it.

Local governments can also put in place information about the perils of the journey, to counter the misinformation that exists spread by people smugglers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.



How has climate change doubled populations in some parts of the world in 2 decades?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm 
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.


Last edited by Santa on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:17 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Who's borders do you want tightened ?


The countries where the most migrants come from. Part of the problem is the fluid borders that exist in some places. I accept that you can't fence and guard the entire border of Nigeria, but perhaps some technical assistance can be provided to ensure better monitoring of popular smuggling routes. Passports don't even come into it.

Local governments can also put in place information about the perils of the journey, to counter the misinformation that exists spread by people smugglers.



So you want migrants home countries to stop their people with passports leaving ? How on earth can that be right ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:19 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.



How has climate change doubled populations in some parts of the world in 2 decades?

:lol: :lol:

Who... HOW did you get that?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Santa wrote:
Andalu wrote:
Was slightly tongue in cheek but I'm talking about a distant future. Don't see our current problems continuing forever unless there is a global catastrophe that sends us back into the stone age.


Can you explain why borders should be open.


Population of New Zealand would be 50m at least with open borders. Japan, Italy and UK all handle that.

I'm talking about a distant future where we have solved problems with poverty/environment/overpopulation/education etc.

My point is that we can cross that bridge if and when we come to it, and that we aren't there yet. I'm still optimistic though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:20 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.


A couple of forecasts regarding climate change have the equatorial regions rendered uninhabitable.

Think about how many people live in the 30 degrees of latitude straddling the equator. Imagine ice melt stopping the Atlantic Conveyor in conjunction with that shift. You'd have half the UK uninhabitable or incapable of supporting any population density.

People all over the planet are going to be on the move. We need to work out how we're going to feed everyone and provide energy. Push factors....? small change.

One factor re. asylum seekers that never really gets attention is the smuggling. Hermes' has specifically outlined that aspect in his excellent post and no-one wants to talk about addressing that.



But currently weather conditions are providing an environment where populations are booming.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:21 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
So you want migrants home countries to stop their people with passports leaving ? How on earth can that be right ?


It's got nothing to do with passports. I'm not sure what you're getting at.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:27 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.



How has climate change doubled populations in some parts of the world in 2 decades?

:lol: :lol:

Who... HOW did you get that?



The population of some of the donor countries have doubled in 20'years, now most people would say the environment supporting that has been successful rather than blighted.

What "could" happen is due to unsustainable "local"populations more than anything else.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:27 pm 
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bimboman wrote:


But currently weather conditions are providing an environment where populations are booming.


The population is increasing alarmingly, yes... but not solely down to weather Bimbo. What are you driving at with this line?

When I was born, in the early 60s, the global population was 3bn

Image

now it's more than twice that. Climate change, you reckon?

https://www.unfpa.org/world-population-trends

Quote:
The huge growth in the world population over the past two centuries is largely the result of advances in modern medicines and improvements in living standards. These have significantly reduced infant, child and maternal mortality, contributing to an increase in life expectancy. Although fertility levels have declined, they have not fallen at the same pace as mortality levels.

The world population will continue to grow for decades to come. This is the result of ‘population momentum’: Because of improved survival rates and past high fertility levels, there are more women of reproductive age today. This will contribute to a relatively large number of births, even if those women have fewer children on average. Although population growth is, today, largely attributable to population momentum, after 2060 it will almost exclusively be driven by fertility levels in the world’s least developed countries.


Last edited by guy smiley on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:28 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
So you want migrants home countries to stop their people with passports leaving ? How on earth can that be right ?


It's got nothing to do with passports. I'm not sure what you're getting at.



I'm wondering who and how you expect countries would stop people leaving ? My point is fairly f ucking clear.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:32 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:


But currently weather conditions are providing an environment where populations are booming.


The population is increasing alarmingly, yes... but not solely down to weather Bimbo. What are you driving at with this line?

When I was born, in the early 60s, the global population was 3bn

Image

now it's more than twice that. Climate change, you reckon?

https://www.unfpa.org/world-population-trends

Quote:
The huge growth in the world population over the past two centuries is largely the result of advances in modern medicines and improvements in living standards. These have significantly reduced infant, child and maternal mortality, contributing to an increase in life expectancy. Although fertility levels have declined, they have not fallen at the same pace as mortality levels.

The world population will continue to grow for decades to come. This is the result of ‘population momentum’: Because of improved survival rates and past high fertility levels, there are more women of reproductive age today. This will contribute to a relatively large number of births, even if those women have fewer children on average. Although population growth is, today, largely attributable to population momentum, after 2060 it will almost exclusively be driven by fertility levels in the world’s least developed countries.



I've not claimed at all that climate change is causing population growth , that's an idiotic misrepresent ion of my posts.

Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


Last edited by bimboman on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:33 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
I'm wondering who and how you expect countries would stop people leaving ? My point is fairly f ucking clear.


No need for profanities Bimboman. I'm simply questioning why you keep bringing up passports.

Part of the problem in a place like West Africa is fluid borders. Most people can walk across the border to Benin, Cameroon or Niger (and onwards to Europe). I would propose that the local police and army at least slow this down but monitoring some of the main routes. An example of how this was done is the Zimbabwe South Africa border. Fences were improved, patrols were made and the numbers illegally crossing slowed down. It's just one suggestion that has to be part of a broader plan.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:35 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:35 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'm wondering who and how you expect countries would stop people leaving ? My point is fairly f ucking clear.


No need for profanities Bimboman. I'm simply questioning why you keep bringing up passports.

Part of the problem in a place like West Africa is fluid borders. Most people can walk across the border to Benin, Cameroon or Niger (and onwards to Europe). I would propose that the local police and army at least slow this down but monitoring some of the main routes. An example of how this was done is the Zimbabwe South Africa border. Fences were improved, patrols were made and the numbers illegally crossing slowed down. It's just one suggestion that has to be part of a broader plan.


Well I bring it up as I'm still unsure of how we stop people legitamly leaving a country.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:36 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:38 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Well I bring it up as I'm still unsure of how we stop people legitamly leaving a country.


My opinion: firstly, improve their situation and address their reasons for leaving. Secondly, deter them from leaving by showing the hardships they are likely to experience, thirdly tighter control of borders. Realistically, it will probably take a generation to achieve all three.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:41 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Well I bring it up as I'm still unsure of how we stop people legitamly leaving a country.


My opinion: firstly, improve their situation and address their reasons for leaving. Secondly, deter them from leaving by showing the hardships they are likely to experience, thirdly tighter control of borders. Realistically, it will probably take a generation to achieve all three.



Again who's border controls ? Are you genuinly saying donor countries should stop people leaving ? How on earth do their human rights work on that one ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:42 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.


I brought that in to illustrate the serious shortcomings inherent in current efforts to deal with mass migration type events. I never tried to suggest it was a current issue...

but it's not far off. There are some Pacific Island nations facing the real prospect of having to move soon as their islands are basically almost underwater. Extrapolate that effect out to the SE Asian coastal regions. Now the US. Miami is already regularly flooding with rising seas simply flowing back up the drains.

Then there's the thing about food, and water.

Bit irrelevant right now? Good o, come back to us when you run out.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:43 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Again who's border controls ? Are you genuinly saying donor countries should stop people leaving ? How on earth do their human rights work on that one ?


The host country should control their own borders.

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with Africa?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Forget trying to stop them leaving their own country, without control the money would be wasted on corrupt governance. The only way is to stop them getting in ours. The attraction will wear off once they know they'll be told to piss off and they'll find a new target.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Perhaps migrants could be housed in those countries most responsible for C02 emissions if those emissions are responsible for global warming.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:57 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.

Well. No.
There is a strong argument that man made climate change is currently driving many of the economix migrants due to their inability to make a living off the land they currently have. Its impossible to quantify as we dont know what would have happened without climate change.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:59 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.


I brought that in to illustrate the serious shortcomings inherent in current efforts to deal with mass migration type events. I never tried to suggest it was a current issue...

but it's not far off. There are some Pacific Island nations facing the real prospect of having to move soon as their islands are basically almost underwater. Extrapolate that effect out to the SE Asian coastal regions. Now the US. Miami is already regularly flooding with rising seas simply flowing back up the drains.

Then there's the thing about food, and water.

Bit irrelevant right now? Good o, come back to us when you run out.



Pacific islands that have been about to disappear for a generation now. Let's concentrate on food water and TRADE.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Farva wrote:
bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.

Well. No.
There is a strong argument that man made climate change is currently driving many of the economix migrants due to their inability to make a living off the land they currently have. Its impossible to quantify as we dont know what would have happened without climate change.


Well we know populations have doubled..... Doesn't sound like a failure to me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:04 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Again who's border controls ? Are you genuinly saying donor countries should stop people leaving ? How on earth do their human rights work on that one ?


The host country should control their own borders.

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with Africa?



So Libya for example ? These people do have passports though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Mick Mannock wrote:
Perhaps migrants could be housed in those countries most responsible for C02 emissions if those emissions are responsible for global warming.



In fairness that mean Europe and America.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:08 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Sorry, is climate change a factor in current migration, and if so is it as big a factor as the population boom ? Demographics btw show a decline in global populations post 2050.


The UN has three simplified models for population forecasting. Only the most 'optimistic' shows any real decline and that is to a point marginally short of where we stand today.

Climate change will affect migration as various parts of the world become either uninhabitable or, in low lying coastal zones, simply not available.



But completely irrelevant right now then. Glad we cleared that up.


I brought that in to illustrate the serious shortcomings inherent in current efforts to deal with mass migration type events. I never tried to suggest it was a current issue...

but it's not far off. There are some Pacific Island nations facing the real prospect of having to move soon as their islands are basically almost underwater. Extrapolate that effect out to the SE Asian coastal regions. Now the US. Miami is already regularly flooding with rising seas simply flowing back up the drains.

Then there's the thing about food, and water.

Bit irrelevant right now? Good o, come back to us when you run out.



Pacific islands that have been about to disappear for a generation now. Let's concentrate on food water and TRADE.

:lol: :lol:

fudge off.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:29 pm 
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englishchief wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
assfly wrote:
Leinster in London wrote:
Stay in Africa are the operative words.
If they travelled half way around the world from SE Asia or went south after leaving ME, to end up in Africa, I see no problem in forcing them to stay there.


Thankfully most of the people who make these decisions have more humanity than you do.

I'm sure if you were born into the situations these people are, you would also do everything in your power to improve your situation.


Ok, give me a number, and confirm to me that if we move absolutely everyone out of the shithole they came from, then the same shithole will not have been created here.


This. Countries are a product of the people inhabiting them, and their culture.


With all due respect that is utter bollocks. A country is the sum of hundreds/thousands of years (history) of external conquers, wars, subjugations, external ingerence AND of the people inhabiting them, culture is also a sum of all those condiments.

Saying that inhabitants of a country are responsible for their own fate is right but the same rationale has lots of ***.

Africa suffered during hundred of years subjugation, wars created by invades, slavery, european greed, etc. etc. saying that the conditions that their inhabitants have are 100 % responsibility of those individuals is plain wrong and ignores a great deal of the foreign intervention those countries suffered in the past and are suffering nowadays.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Quote:
Africa suffered during hundred of years subjugation, wars created by invades, slavery, european greed, etc. etc. saying that the conditions that their inhabitants have are 100 % responsibility of those individuals is plain wrong and ignores a great deal of the foreign intervention those countries suffered in the past and are suffering nowadays.


African people have subjugated more Africans for longer than any invader managed. They've also had a fairly good crack at getting it right.

Despotic leaders don't help the issue either.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:49 pm 
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bimboman wrote:
Mick Mannock wrote:
Perhaps migrants could be housed in those countries most responsible for C02 emissions if those emissions are responsible for global warming.



In fairness that mean Europe and America.


USA, China, India.

Germany is the only European nation in the top 10 if one discounts Russia


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:02 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.


A couple of forecasts regarding climate change have the equatorial regions rendered uninhabitable.

Think about how many people live in the 30 degrees of latitude straddling the equator. Imagine ice melt stopping the Atlantic Conveyor in conjunction with that shift. You'd have half the UK uninhabitable or incapable of supporting any population density.

People all over the planet are going to be on the move. We need to work out how we're going to feed everyone and provide energy. Push factors....? small change.

One factor re. asylum seekers that never really gets attention is the smuggling. Hermes' has specifically outlined that aspect in his excellent post and no-one wants to talk about addressing that.


If 50 million people have to die in sub Saharan Africa to allow us Brits to grow Champagne grapes in the UK I think we can all agree that that is a price worth paying eh eh??


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:07 pm 
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This is classic bimboman.

You said this

No I didn't

See!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:26 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
bimboman wrote:
Farva wrote:
nardol wrote:
Farva, that would involve USA style interference. You up for some assassinations and the introduction of a new era of colonialism?

Guy had mentioned climate change. Addressing that doesnt involve assassinations.
The easiest one though is to meet our foreign aid pledges and do it without conditions. We are a long way off at the moment.
Most people dont want to leave their home and walk 1000s of kms to get on a boat. Lets assist the removal of the push effects. Its not too late IMO.



How has climate change doubled populations in some parts of the world in 2 decades?

:lol: :lol:

Who... HOW did you get that?


that was a head scratcher to put it mildly .....


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:34 pm 
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slick wrote:
This is classic bimboman.

You said this

No I didn't

See!



Sorry, directly quote where I claimed I DIDN'T say something ?

Classic slick.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:57 pm 
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assfly wrote:
bimboman wrote:
I'm wondering who and how you expect countries would stop people leaving ? My point is fairly f ucking clear.


No need for profanities Bimboman. I'm simply questioning why you keep bringing up passports.

Part of the problem in a place like West Africa is fluid borders. Most people can walk across the border to Benin, Cameroon or Niger (and onwards to Europe). I would propose that the local police and army at least slow this down but monitoring some of the main routes. An example of how this was done is the Zimbabwe South Africa border. Fences were improved, patrols were made and the numbers illegally crossing slowed down. It's just one suggestion that has to be part of a broader plan.


As soon as you wrote that, I thought of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEec3IjVnuM


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