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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:08 pm 
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An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:


Fait accompli.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:00 pm 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:


I don’t believe I’ve even seen the process? Which are the farcical and ridiculous bits?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:08 am 
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Salient wrote:

Think things are getting real strange at AB HQ, apparently the contenders have to bring on in their supporting staff :shock:


Similar process to 2007 and I suppose 2011. In 2007, I read one of the big reasons Ted got the gig again was because of the quality of his coaching team. Apparently Robbie Deans hadn't even thought about who his assistants would be.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:54 am 
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The reality is that, Laurie Mains appointment aside, there has always been a succession in NZR appointments, though it is interesting that coaching at Soup level is not an automatic pathway, even though it perhaps should be. The NZRU, apart from Mains, has always placed greater emphasis on overseas experience.
My personal preference is the Jamie Joseph/Tony Brown combo. I had a bit to do with them, under Mains, all those years ago, and really liked their attitude to the game. It must be remembered though that Stu Forster and Marc Ellis were key elements in those teams, and jeez, you couldn't keep those guys down for even five minutes. It was a great environment...... and people said Mains was stodgy.......... no way!
Anyway, who would be on Foster's team: Scot McLeod is the only certainty I guess? Joe Schmidt maybe (but hard to see him as a number two), John Plumtree maybe (but he's very 'up and down' isn't he?), Maybe Clark Dermody an ex-AB, who seems to make things happen around him? No one really sticks out as his off-siders do they?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:16 am 
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Hansen talking to his replacement :P
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:07 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:

Tell us more AC, what is the farcial and ridiculous recruitment process??


Last edited by Dan54. on Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:25 am 
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Auckman wrote:
Salient wrote:

Think things are getting real strange at AB HQ, apparently the contenders have to bring on in their supporting staff :shock:


Similar process to 2007 and I suppose 2011. In 2007, I read one of the big reasons Ted got the gig again was because of the quality of his coaching team. Apparently Robbie Deans hadn't even thought about who his assistants would be.

I don't know where you heard that.
My recollection is that Pat Lam was to be his forward coach.
Not that it made any difference.
He never got the job.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:06 am 
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BillW wrote:
Auckman wrote:
Salient wrote:

Think things are getting real strange at AB HQ, apparently the contenders have to bring on in their supporting staff :shock:


Similar process to 2007 and I suppose 2011. In 2007, I read one of the big reasons Ted got the gig again was because of the quality of his coaching team. Apparently Robbie Deans hadn't even thought about who his assistants would be.

I don't know where you heard that.
My recollection is that Pat Lam was to be his forward coach.
Not that it made any difference.
He never got the job.


Steve Hansen

Pat Lam's a new one. Never heard that before.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:13 am 
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Has to be - makes sense


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:56 am 
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Auckman wrote:
BillW wrote:
Auckman wrote:
Salient wrote:

Think things are getting real strange at AB HQ, apparently the contenders have to bring on in their supporting staff :shock:


Similar process to 2007 and I suppose 2011. In 2007, I read one of the big reasons Ted got the gig again was because of the quality of his coaching team. Apparently Robbie Deans hadn't even thought about who his assistants would be.

I don't know where you heard that.
My recollection is that Pat Lam was to be his forward coach.
Not that it made any difference.
He never got the job.


Steve Hansen

Pat Lam's a new one. Never heard that before.

Sorry Auckman I missed your reply but yes, Pat Lam was to have been Dean's assisstant.

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand ... 8783705327


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:13 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:


I don’t believe I’ve even seen the process? Which are the farcical and ridiculous bits?


What's farcicial is that the system is so clearly rigged in favour of Ian Foster as to make it an exercise in futility.

Firstly, why would NZR approach 26 individuals to apply? That's a ridiculous number given that realistically on 2-3 candidates are in with any chance. NZR is trying far too hard to appear to be casting their search far and wide.

Secondly, why force candidates to name their support team before interviewing? That greatly advantages incumbents like Ian Foster who have all the benefits of being inside the NZR system at their disposal. By making it about the coaching 'team', NZR is desperately trying to divert attention away from Ian Foster's mediocre record as a head coach. How is someone like Scott Roertson meant to have assembled an International coaching team together when he is a SR coach?

I would have thought that the best system would have been to appoint the individual who NZR thought was the best man for the job of Head Coach, and then allow this person some time to bring a team together? Once appointed as AB head coach it would infitintely easier for the successful candidate to persuade talented assistant coaches to get on board. By forcing applicants to name their team beforehand, NZR is doctoring the outcome of this process because only Ian Foster currently has that kind of team.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:34 am 
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Tony Brown looked like a man with barely a care in the world yesterday when I spotted him partaking in some brews at the Dunedin beer festival.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:06 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:


I don’t believe I’ve even seen the process? Which are the farcical and ridiculous bits?


What's farcicial is that the system is so clearly rigged in favour of Ian Foster as to make it an exercise in futility.

Firstly, why would NZR approach 26 individuals to apply? That's a ridiculous number given that realistically on 2-3 candidates are in with any chance. NZR is trying far too hard to appear to be casting their search far and wide.

Secondly, why force candidates to name their support team before interviewing? That greatly advantages incumbents like Ian Foster who have all the benefits of being inside the NZR system at their disposal. By making it about the coaching 'team', NZR is desperately trying to divert attention away from Ian Foster's mediocre record as a head coach. How is someone like Scott Roertson meant to have assembled an International coaching team together when he is a SR coach?

I would have thought that the best system would have been to appoint the individual who NZR thought was the best man for the job of Head Coach, and then allow this person some time to bring a team together? Once appointed as AB head coach it would infitintely easier for the successful candidate to persuade talented assistant coaches to get on board. By forcing applicants to name their team beforehand, NZR is doctoring the outcome of this process because only Ian Foster currently has that kind of team.


I understand your misgivings, there are pros and cons to forcing coaching teams to apply as opposed to being confirmed afterward. But you seem to think Foster is the only one with this in place. I don’t think foster has an assistant does he? And Joseph has Brown in his camp. Foster appears to be on the back foot right now to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:08 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
An absolutely farcical and ridiculous recruitment process that has been clearly established to ensure Ian Foster gets the job. I'm calling it now. NZR are a disgrace :thumbdown:


I don’t believe I’ve even seen the process? Which are the farcical and ridiculous bits?


What's farcicial is that the system is so clearly rigged in favour of Ian Foster as to make it an exercise in futility.

Firstly, why would NZR approach 26 individuals to apply? That's a ridiculous number given that realistically on 2-3 candidates are in with any chance. NZR is trying far too hard to appear to be casting their search far and wide.

Secondly, why force candidates to name their support team before interviewing? That greatly advantages incumbents like Ian Foster who have all the benefits of being inside the NZR system at their disposal. By making it about the coaching 'team', NZR is desperately trying to divert attention away from Ian Foster's mediocre record as a head coach. How is someone like Scott Roertson meant to have assembled an International coaching team together when he is a SR coach?

I would have thought that the best system would have been to appoint the individual who NZR thought was the best man for the job of Head Coach, and then allow this person some time to bring a team together? Once appointed as AB head coach it would infitintely easier for the successful candidate to persuade talented assistant coaches to get on board. By forcing applicants to name their team beforehand, NZR is doctoring the outcome of this process because only Ian Foster currently has that kind of team.



I think if I were on the appointment panel, I consider my job is to help appoint the new coaching team, not just one man.

The overall strongest team, be it Razor, Rennie or JJ, should be the ones in the job next year.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am 
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Counter argument is that forcing teams together won’t necessarily get the best results. Is it better to leave it to the coaches to determine who they decide to work with and judge them as a package?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:51 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Counter argument is that forcing teams together won’t necessarily get the best results. Is it better to leave it to the coaches to determine who they decide to work with and judge them as a package?


The problem is that if you are assessing the quality of the entire team then you need to be interviewing and appointing the entire team. The entire team would need to go through a merit recruitment process. But that's not happening. They are hiring one person, the Head Coach, but using the quality of his support staff as a key criteria. That's unusual, IMO. It certainly isn't a normal way to recruit someone as it allows for an immense amount of subjectivity.

.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:36 am 
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Well, according to media reports, this is the current state of play:

Foster team:
Ian Foster, Scott McLeod, and possibly although unlikely, Joe Schmidt.

Robertson team:
Scott Robertson, Ronan O'Gara

Joseph team:
Jaime Joseph, Tony Brown

Rennie team:
Dave Rennie


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:49 am 
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Auckman wrote:
Well, according to media reports, this is the current state of play:

Foster team:
Ian Foster, Scott McLeod, and possibly although unlikely, Joe Schmidt.

Robertson team:
Scott Robertson, Ronan O'Gara

Joseph team:
Jaime Joseph, Tony Brown

Rennie team:
Dave Rennie


Rennie. The one man wrecking ball


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:05 am 
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What does the gatland team look like...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:06 am 
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Is Ronan O’Gara confirmed or speculated? Would the fact he is not nz hinder them? I’m assuming yes...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:57 pm 
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kiwigreg369 wrote:
What does the gatland team look like...

warren gatland team:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Auckman wrote:
Well, according to media reports, this is the current state of play:

Foster team:
Ian Foster, Scott McLeod, and possibly although unlikely, Joe Schmidt.

Robertson team:
Scott Robertson, Ronan O'Gara

Joseph team:
Jaime Joseph, Tony Brown

Rennie team:
Dave Rennie



“Media reports”...

This is the NZ media, right. So some fans with laptops are speculating wildly. Perhaps with gay abandon.

Essentially playing out the same drama that goes on in here but getting paid for it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:16 pm 
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I agree with Ali. Choose the coach only. Tony Brown is forced to choose in advance whose camp he is in. Surely better that whoever is named head coach can then approach whoever to be their assistants. Tony Brown may be happy to be assistant to more than one head coach. Same with others?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Is Ronan O’Gara confirmed or speculated? Would the fact he is not nz hinder them? I’m assuming yes...


Mick Byrne was Australian.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:44 pm 
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Grandpa wrote:
I agree with Ali. Choose the coach only. Tony Brown is forced to choose in advance whose camp he is in. Surely better that whoever is named head coach can then approach whoever to be their assistants. Tony Brown may be happy to be assistant to more than one head coach. Same with others?


Exactly. This system means that the best assistants available may be overlooked because they were not aligned with the best head coach. Similarly, the best head coach may miss out because his assistants aren't s good as another candidate.

It's a farce, and it's designed to ensure that Ian Foster is able to secure the role. I wouldn't have had such a problem with Ian Foster getting the job if we had won the RWC, but given we got booted out of the tournament by England in the semi finals without even firing a shot, I think some change is what is needed. Another 4 years of endless selection uncertainty and rotating players will do my head in.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Is there anything stopping assistants saying they will join different head coaches depending on who gets it, meaning both Hansen and Razor could apply with the same assistant? I had the impression Tony Brown had done that initially, then decided to stick with Joseph.

Murdoch wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Is Ronan O’Gara confirmed or speculated? Would the fact he is not nz hinder them? I’m assuming yes...


Mick Byrne was Australian.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:08 pm 
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We didn't hear anything about Steve Hansen's assistants when he was appointed as Head Coach 8 years ago.

The only reason why the 'assistants' are such a huge thing for this recruitment process, and are getting discussed more than the actual Head Coach applicants, is because NZR's favoured candidate Ian Foster has virtually no pedigree as a Head Coach.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:14 pm 
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I still don’t think it gives him an advantage, not when the hottest of hot properties has been locked up by Jamie Joseph.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
I still don’t think it gives him an advantage, not when the hottest of hot properties has been locked up by Jamie Joseph.


Except Jamie Joseph's record as a head coach is only average as well. One SR title in a RWC year when all the other Kiwi teams were forced to rest players, and then a QF loss with a brave but under-manned Japan. Of course no-one will ever forget Joseph's decision to start 6'3" prop Jacob Ellison at lock against Canterbury in the 2008 Air NZ Cup Final, which lovingly handed the red'n'blacks that year's title. That was the worst selection I've ever seen a coach make.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Joseph and Brown for me.......AB history behind this pair.....and successful international careers.

Foster may be a nice guy but he has had eight years?......new era starting....need new ideas.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:25 pm 
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AB coaches have form making poor selections in crucial play-off matches. Maybe it will help Joseph? :blush:

Something also worth mentioning. The media (and public opinion) seem heavily against Foster. I reckon that will weigh in quite a bit.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:35 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Auckman wrote:
Well, according to media reports, this is the current state of play:

Foster team:
Ian Foster, Scott McLeod, and possibly although unlikely, Joe Schmidt.

Robertson team:
Scott Robertson, Ronan O'Gara

Joseph team:
Jaime Joseph, Tony Brown

Rennie team:
Dave Rennie


“Media reports”...

This is the NZ media, right. So some fans with laptops are speculating wildly. Perhaps with gay abandon.

Essentially playing out the same drama that goes on in here but getting paid for it.


All true but some of them might actually have some "sources" we don't know about. Who knows.

All that said though, Tony Brown has definitely hitched his horse to Jaime Joseph's cart. Whether Joseph gets the ABs or goes back to Japan, Brown is sticking with him. The only thing Brown will refuse to do (all jokes aside) is follow Joseph to the wallabies if that became a possibility.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:19 am 
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Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
Tony Brown looked like a man with barely a care in the world yesterday when I spotted him partaking in some brews at the Dunedin beer festival.


I shared a urinal with him at the end of the day. Friendly bloke and highlight of the day.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:27 am 
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Tony Brown is the Charlie Ngatai of coaches. His reputation is just growing and growing, and it doesn't really align to his achievements.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:59 am 
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mr bungle wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
Tony Brown looked like a man with barely a care in the world yesterday when I spotted him partaking in some brews at the Dunedin beer festival.


I shared a urinal with him at the end of the day. Friendly bloke and highlight of the day.


Too friendly .


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:02 am 
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Murdoch wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Is Ronan O’Gara confirmed or speculated? Would the fact he is not nz hinder them? I’m assuming yes...


Mick Byrne was Australian.



Still is, as far as I know?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:16 am 
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mr bungle wrote:
Ghost-Of-Nepia wrote:
Tony Brown looked like a man with barely a care in the world yesterday when I spotted him partaking in some brews at the Dunedin beer festival.


I shared a urinal with him at the end of the day. Friendly bloke and highlight of the day.


Saw him at U2 queuing for the urinal in Auckland on Friday night. So he gets around.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:18 am 
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Used to see Brown around a lot when I was at uni.

Of course he was first five for the Landers at the time so that wasn't unexpected.

Seems a pretty laid back sort of a bloke. Quite the drinker back then too.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:19 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
Murdoch wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Is Ronan O’Gara confirmed or speculated? Would the fact he is not nz hinder them? I’m assuming yes...


Mick Byrne was Australian.



Still is, as far as I know?


He supposedly did great things for the All Blacks as 'skills coach' and there was much consternation when he went back to the Wallabies. The results didn't really bear out those fears.


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