Planet Rugby Forum

happyhooker wrote:

The Sun God wrote:

sewa wrote:

The Sun God wrote:

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:Silly question but I'm woefully ignorant on the topic: are we going to end up paying more for cars in Ireland due to the British factories closing down or being behind import tariffs? Or are right-hand drives routinely produced on the continent too?

Don't think so with the exception of some very high end motors. After Brexit Ireland and Malta will be the two remaining 'drive on the left' countries in the EU.... I guess that will cause issues at some stage down the road.

Nope, Dacia for example have only one manufacturing facility. Yet they sell a lot of cheap to medium priced right hand drive motors in Ireland

Didn't know that about Dacia.....

I'm surprised you've even heard of them

The EU-Japan FTA which allows finished cars to eventually be sold tariff free in both markets as well as harmonization of vehicle regulations would I suspect have killed off UK based Japanese production...it was nice while it lasted but they simply do not need to do it anymore.

No doubt Brexit has played its part in this and its a tragedy regardless of the cause but being inside the CCP and single market would have not saved these plants IMO.

Rugby2023 wrote:Apparently all European market production is returning to Japan. Tomlinson is the local MP:

@JustinTomlinson

Honda: @RobertBuckland & I have already spoken to the Business Secretary & Honda. They are clear this is based on global trends and not Brexit as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021.

The Japanese can't openly blame brexit, as they want to keep as on side as possible with the Tories for a UK Japan deal... not as beneficial to the UK as the current one, but like "OK" for the UK.... better than nothing.

The Sun God wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:Apparently all European market production is returning to Japan. Tomlinson is the local MP:

@JustinTomlinson

Honda: @RobertBuckland & I have already spoken to the Business Secretary & Honda. They are clear this is based on global trends and not Brexit as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021.

So bye bye Nissan in the near future also yeah ?

Japanese pharma cannot be far behind...

tc27 wrote:The EU-Japan FTA which allows finished cars to eventually be sold tariff free in both markets as well as harmonization of vehicle regulations would I suspect have killed off UK based Japanese production...it was nice while it lasted but they simply do not need to do it anymore.

No doubt Brexit has played its part in this and its a tragedy regardless of the cause but being inside the CCP and single market would have not saved these plants IMO.

Is shipping cheap enough to be almost irrelevant? I presume so seeing that they're moving production back home, but it amazes me a bit. I'd have thought it was a considerable extra cost for heavy and voluminous items like cars.

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brexiteer Justin Tomlinson has a few old tweets he may want to delete as they are now doing the rounds

Ive worked in industrial and robotic automation for close to 30 years and a lot of that has been involved with car plants. All the manufacturers with multiple sites benchmark each site to see best practice and sometimes close the worst. Anyone who thinks they’re just moving back to Japan because it will be easy, fun, local and this is just a concidence is frankly a bit deluded or stupifyingly stubborn.

Mullet 2 wrote:Financial Trading
Pharma
Logistics
International trade
Agriculture
Manufacturing
EU Institutions
Foreign Relations
Third level funding
Veterinary Science
Entrepreneurship
Telesales
Motivational speaking
Car production
Just in time
Belgium
Electrician
The mind of others
Maastrict Treat
Counter terrorism
IRA Weapons Caches
State Aid Law
The Good Friday Agreement
Crime Statistics

PCPhil wrote:Ive worked in industrial and robotic automation for close to 30 years and a lot of that has been involved with car plants. All the manufacturers with multiple sites benchmark each site to see best practice and sometimes close the worst. Anyone who thinks they’re just moving back to Japan because it will be easy, fun, local and this is just a concidence is frankly a bit deluded or stupifyingly stubborn.

Or if you’re like Dimbo and qualify under both headings.

The Sun God wrote:

Rugby2023 wrote:Apparently all European market production is returning to Japan. Tomlinson is the local MP:

@JustinTomlinson

Honda: @RobertBuckland & I have already spoken to the Business Secretary & Honda. They are clear this is based on global trends and not Brexit as all European market production will consolidate in Japan in 2021.

So bye bye Nissan in the near future also yeah ?

Yep. The tariffs, and uncertainty etc...

Bimbo and rugby2023 just don't get it.

Brexit in an industry with fine margins makes British factories uncompetitive. Uncertainty, potential tariffs in an industry which requires longer term planning means that any UK factory is by default uncompetitive therefore will get hit by any cuts/shutdown. It is the sensible business decision. With the current situation and slowdown in the car industry where you are trying to plan long term brexit ensures British factories will be the ones cut by default. Without brexit some might suffer shutdown/reduced production/cuts due to the economic situation but not all.

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:

tc27 wrote:The EU-Japan FTA which allows finished cars to eventually be sold tariff free in both markets as well as harmonization of vehicle regulations would I suspect have killed off UK based Japanese production...it was nice while it lasted but they simply do not need to do it anymore.

No doubt Brexit has played its part in this and its a tragedy regardless of the cause but being inside the CCP and single market would have not saved these plants IMO.

Is shipping cheap enough to be almost irrelevant? I presume so seeing that they're moving production back home, but it amazes me a bit. I'd have thought it was a considerable extra cost for heavy and voluminous items like cars.

It's expensive to move production facilities, but if they were going to have to move them out of the UK anyway they could have chosen to relocate somewhere in Europe and save on transport costs or go back home to Japan. Relocating in Europe would have been a big investment just to keep the status quo. It seems a more sensible idea to expand their production back at home and take the hit on transport rather than build new facilities in the EU.

SamShark wrote:brexiteer Justin Tomlinson has a few old tweets he may want to delete as they are now doing the rounds

"Some people wanted to embrace the global economy, some people felt that what they had voted for in the 70s now wasn't what was there today.

"The country has an appetite for change."

PCPhil wrote:Ive worked in industrial and robotic automation for close to 30 years and a lot of that has been involved with car plants. All the manufacturers with multiple sites benchmark each site to see best practice and sometimes close the worst. Anyone who thinks they’re just moving back to Japan because it will be easy, fun, local and this is just a concidence is frankly a bit deluded or stupifyingly stubborn.

That's what I would have thought also...

SamShark wrote:brexiteer Justin Tomlinson has a few old tweets he may want to delete as they are now doing the rounds

https://twitter.com/IanMSanders/status/ ... 8886542336

This reply sums it up imo

The Sun God wrote:

PCPhil wrote:Ive worked in industrial and robotic automation for close to 30 years and a lot of that has been involved with car plants. All the manufacturers with multiple sites benchmark each site to see best practice and sometimes close the worst. Anyone who thinks they’re just moving back to Japan because it will be easy, fun, local and this is just a concidence is frankly a bit deluded or stupifyingly stubborn.

That's what I would have thought also...

Brexiteer Standard Answer two- " When under the cosh, find a way to pin it on the nasty EU and repeat"

PCPhil wrote:Ive worked in industrial and robotic automation for close to 30 years and a lot of that has been involved with car plants. All the manufacturers with multiple sites benchmark each site to see best practice and sometimes close the worst. Anyone who thinks they’re just moving back to Japan because it will be easy, fun, local and this is just a concidence is frankly a bit deluded or stupifyingly stubborn.

You don't understand, any company that states it is closing or moving because of Brexit is lying and trying to hide its incompetence and/or profiteering behind the lie. But any company saying it is closing or moving and its nothing to do with Brexit is telling the simple truth.

sewa wrote:

SamShark wrote:brexiteer Justin Tomlinson has a few old tweets he may want to delete as they are now doing the rounds

https://twitter.com/IanMSanders/status/ ... 8886542336

This reply sums it up imo

Honda UK warns MPs of consequences of leaving EU customs union

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... _clipboard

Toulon's Not Toulouse wrote:

tc27 wrote:The EU-Japan FTA which allows finished cars to eventually be sold tariff free in both markets as well as harmonization of vehicle regulations would I suspect have killed off UK based Japanese production...it was nice while it lasted but they simply do not need to do it anymore.

No doubt Brexit has played its part in this and its a tragedy regardless of the cause but being inside the CCP and single market would have not saved these plants IMO.

Is shipping cheap enough to be almost irrelevant? I presume so seeing that they're moving production back home, but it amazes me a bit. I'd have thought it was a considerable extra cost for heavy and voluminous items like cars.

Yeah pretty much - Daewoo and Kia export direct to the EU and significantly undercut the coast of European built cars. My Mazda was built in Japan and was still reasonably priced even with the shipping and 10% tariff that was then in place.

Twitter....

Companies relocating/reducing staff in the past month:

Honda
Nissan
Jaguar Land Rover
Panasonic
Sony Europe
Dyson (etc etc)

All nothing to do with Brexit, you understand.

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Leffe wrote:Twitter....

Companies relocating/reducing staff in the past month:

Honda
Nissan
Jaguar Land Rover
Panasonic
Sony Europe
Dyson (etc etc)

All nothing to do with Brexit, you understand.

To play Devils advocate out of all of those its only really the EU head office move (Sony?) that can be directly attributed to Brexit - really if their are viable reasons for it to happen regardless then you would have to be able to prove that they would have stayed in the counter factual scenario.

Its certain Brexit is going to cause job losses and diminished inward investment however and those who peddled it based on denying this will hopefully get the blame.

Brexit: Japan warns firms may move European HQ out of Britain
5 September 2016

The strongly worded report from Japan's foreign ministry says the firms might want to move "if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK".

Japanese firms employ an estimated 140,000 workers in the UK, with Nomura bank, manufacturing giant Hitachi and carmakers Honda, Nissan and Toyota all having major bases in the country.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-37270372

Petej wrote:

tc27 wrote:

Leffe wrote:Twitter....

Companies relocating/reducing staff in the past month:

Honda
Nissan
Jaguar Land Rover
Panasonic
Sony Europe
Dyson (etc etc)

All nothing to do with Brexit, you understand.

To play Devils advocate out of all of those its only really the EU head office move (Sony?) that can be directly attributed to Brexit - really if their are viable reasons for it to happen regardless then you would have to be able to prove that they would have stayed in the counter factual scenario.

Its certain Brexit is going to cause job losses and diminished inward investment however and those who peddled it based on denying this will hopefully get the blame.

It's not just about job losses thou, it's about the UK attractiveness in general.

BokJock wrote:

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Whilst the EU and China do not have a formal FTA that removes tariffs they do have dozens of non tariff related legal agreements to facilitate trade as does the EU and pretty much every major economy.

No advanced economy trades just on WTO terms - its complete bullshit to suggest this happens.

Leffe wrote:

tc27 wrote:

Leffe wrote:Twitter....

Companies relocating/reducing staff in the past month:

Honda
Nissan
Jaguar Land Rover
Panasonic
Sony Europe
Dyson (etc etc)

All nothing to do with Brexit, you understand.

To play Devils advocate out of all of those its only really the EU head office move (Sony?) that can be directly attributed to Brexit - really if their are viable reasons for it to happen regardless then you would have to be able to prove that they would have stayed in the counter factual scenario.

Its certain Brexit is going to cause job losses and diminished inward investment however and those who peddled it based on denying this will hopefully get the blame.

It's not just about job losses thou, it's about the UK attractiveness in general.

I agree - the UK will no longer be a foothold inside the EU's single market and common customs area for foreign investors..its clearly going to have an effect.

tc27 wrote:

BokJock wrote:

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Whilst the EU and China do not have a formal FTA that removes tariffs they do have dozens of non tariff related legal agreements to facilitate trade as does the EU and pretty much every major economy.

No advanced economy trades just on WTO terms - its complete bullshit to suggest this happens.

I am inclined to believe you rather than Bimboman - mostly cause it did sound like bullshit in the first place

tc27 wrote:

BokJock wrote:

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Whilst the EU and China do not have a formal FTA that removes tariffs they do have dozens of non tariff related legal agreements to facilitate trade as does the EU and pretty much every major economy.

No advanced economy trades just on WTO terms - its complete bullshit to suggest this happens.

Indeed and despite numerous articles from various experts telling us this, one particular poster still peddles the WTO only nonsense at every opportunity

Petej wrote:

bimboman wrote:

sewa wrote:Nissan also moved the X trail back to Japan, that was supposed to be built in Sunderland after the 61 million pounds bribe they received. These free trade areas seem to be good for business

Finally the penny drops. Imagine being able to sign more than 4 of them.

Lets not overload werrity-fox he has only managed to continue 4 of the EU's 40 plus arrangements. 2.5 years work so continuing at the same rate he might replicate worse versions in 25 years time.

They'll rattle in post actually leaving, most of the deals fox is doing are mutual recognition rather than actual trade / tarif deals. We only have to chase down Mexico, South Korea and most importantly Japan.

tc27 wrote:

Leffe wrote:

tc27 wrote:

Leffe wrote:Twitter....

Companies relocating/reducing staff in the past month:

Honda
Nissan
Jaguar Land Rover
Panasonic
Sony Europe
Dyson (etc etc)

All nothing to do with Brexit, you understand.

To play Devils advocate out of all of those its only really the EU head office move (Sony?) that can be directly attributed to Brexit - really if their are viable reasons for it to happen regardless then you would have to be able to prove that they would have stayed in the counter factual scenario.

Its certain Brexit is going to cause job losses and diminished inward investment however and those who peddled it based on denying this will hopefully get the blame.

It's not just about job losses thou, it's about the UK attractiveness in general.

I agree - the UK will no longer be a foothold inside the EU's single market and common customs area for foreign investors..its clearly going to have an effect.

The UK needs foreign investment, that investment is made on the analysis of lots of factors and companies moving their HQs, major job losses or not, does not laint the picture of an attractive, business friendly and successful country.

For me as a brit expat, th silver lining is that the NL is benefiting.

tc27 wrote:

BokJock wrote:

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Whilst the EU and China do not have a formal FTA that removes tariffs they do have dozens of non tariff related legal agreements to facilitate trade as does the EU and pretty much every major economy.

No advanced economy trades just on WTO terms - its complete bullshit to suggest this happens.

They "trade" under WTO rules and schedules, the deals are about standard recognition to allow for quick and mostly unchecked customs regarding standards. The trade is under WTO schedules, sorrow EU - USA.

It's bullshit to describe clearing arrangements as trade deals.

BokJock wrote:

tc27 wrote:

BokJock wrote:

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Whilst the EU and China do not have a formal FTA that removes tariffs they do have dozens of non tariff related legal agreements to facilitate trade as does the EU and pretty much every major economy.

No advanced economy trades just on WTO terms - its complete bullshit to suggest this happens.

I am inclined to believe you rather than Bimboman - mostly cause it did sound like bullshit in the first place

Bullshit would suggest an attempt to deceive, are you both happy ruling out catastrophic levels of ignorance?

The UK needs foreign investment, that investment is made on the analysis of lots of factors and companies moving their HQs, major job losses or not, does not laint the picture of an attractive, business friendly and successful country.

For me as a brit expat, th silver lining is that the NL is benefiting.

2018 the UK were 2nd globally for inward foreign investment.

I realize that there aren't too many Brexiteers posting on this forum but to the few that are, on a macro level is this whole debacle not stinking to high heaven at this stage. Almost three years of chaos and confusion costing billions in trade not to mention the reputational hammering that the UK is taking on an almost daily basis.

Surely it's time to take a deep breath and reset.

bimboman wrote:

Petej wrote:

bimboman wrote:

sewa wrote:Nissan also moved the X trail back to Japan, that was supposed to be built in Sunderland after the 61 million pounds bribe they received. These free trade areas seem to be good for business

Finally the penny drops. Imagine being able to sign more than 4 of them.

Lets not overload werrity-fox he has only managed to continue 4 of the EU's 40 plus arrangements. 2.5 years work so continuing at the same rate he might replicate worse versions in 25 years time.

They'll rattle in post actually leaving, most of the deals fox is doing are mutual recognition rather than actual trade / tarif deals. We only have to chase down Mexico, South Korea and most importantly Japan.

You believe they will rattle in post leaving. I don't. after the last two years this trade thing seems to be a bit more complex than werrity-fox thought. Didn't the ex disgraced defence minister promise that all of these would be ready for march the 29th?

bimboman wrote:

tc27 wrote:

BokJock wrote:

bimboman wrote:
Those trade deals aren't changing WTO terms as much as material recognition for import / export. EU China trade under WTO for example.

Is this true - genuine question?

Whilst the EU and China do not have a formal FTA that removes tariffs they do have dozens of non tariff related legal agreements to facilitate trade as does the EU and pretty much every major economy.

No advanced economy trades just on WTO terms - its complete bullshit to suggest this happens.

They "trade" under WTO rules and schedules, the deals are about standard recognition to allow for quick and mostly unchecked customs regarding standards. The trade is under WTO schedules, sorrow EU - USA.

It's bullshit to describe clearing arrangements as trade deals.

They are deals that need to be replicated however.

bimboman wrote:

Petej wrote:

bimboman wrote:

sewa wrote:Nissan also moved the X trail back to Japan, that was supposed to be built in Sunderland after the 61 million pounds bribe they received. These free trade areas seem to be good for business

Finally the penny drops. Imagine being able to sign more than 4 of them.

Lets not overload werrity-fox he has only managed to continue 4 of the EU's 40 plus arrangements. 2.5 years work so continuing at the same rate he might replicate worse versions in 25 years time.

They'll rattle in post actually leaving, most of the deals fox is doing are mutual recognition rather than actual trade / tarif deals. We only have to chase down Mexico, South Korea and most importantly Japan.

The Japan that just said the UK will get a worse deal than it has now? That Japan?

The Japan that you just said is really important to the UK, and that they (japan) said the UK is going to get a worse deal?

The Japan that the UK just insulted?*

Should I now mention the China insult and subsequently cancelled trade meeting?