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None of that supports your claim that I am obsessed with Ireland. More likely I got into some spat years ago, and it gave a false impression of how much I dwell on Ireland. I don't.

From UnHerd

UnHerd is non-partisan. We are home to fresh thinking and free minds from across the political spectrum. We want to challenge groupthink – particularly in the media – and to help our readers break out of their political echo chambers.

I see their problem

Mullet 2 wrote:

bimboman wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:Ireland will bring down the Euro
Greece will bring down the EU
The PIIGS will bring down the EU
Eh it's just Greece again but it's going to happen
The Dutch will elect a far right Government
The immigration crises will bring down the EU
The French will elect Le Pen and bring down the EU

And now it's Italy

When they're wrong here it will become Hungary or fúcking Malta

Yep, all those issues are solved.

An on que the dumbass is here again to tell us all of them are still going to bring down the EU

Unless there's much more fiscal and political union the Euro cannot survive. You believe any old shite.

Mick Mannock wrote:None of that supports your claim that I am obsessed with Ireland. More likely I got into some spat years ago, and it gave a false impression of how much I dwell on Ireland. I don't.

From UnHerd

UnHerd is non-partisan. We are home to fresh thinking and free minds from across the political spectrum. We want to challenge groupthink – particularly in the media – and to help our readers break out of their political echo chambers.

I see their problem

That's great and all but I sure hope people read and judge their articles and partisanship for themselves, and not simply go by some editorial cue.

I often wonder do news sites and blogs sincerely believe they are non-partisan - when they claim to be - or is it some cheap marketing trick to appeal to the sort of type who thinks "the middle-ground" is where one finds the truth and nub of the issue.

I will engage also

The article seems to me to have a good handle on the weaknesses of the EU at the moment. The Union is stretched by political and economic tensions. Italy is a problem, there is (as there often has been) tension between France and Germany. There are external factors at play (which affect all of us inside and out, by the way).

However, and with respect to the author who doubtless knows a lot more than I do, I do not accept that she has proved her opening para:
"Its default modus operandi pushes back against serious problems by rigidly asserting its own internal doctrines and hierarchies, and by expressing its commitment to a rules-based international order. This approach is peculiarly unsuited to the troubles at hand."

I don't agree with the first premise - negotiations both internal and external have over the years been characterised by the sense that the EU will always find a way to compromise to achieve whatever goals it has set - this, after all has been one of the strong assumptions on the Leave side, that the EU would sacrifice principles for a pragmatic outcome

I don't accept the conclusion as it applies to the Brexit process and I note that the article does not claim this either. The adherence to the Four Freedoms has held the 27 together in the face of forces that might be a further existential threat to the Union.

p.s. I still maintain that the first post invited responses in the same way as the Jonny May thread or claiming Sexton is as good as Carter was

Mick Mannock wrote:None of that supports your claim that I am obsessed with Ireland. More likely I got into some spat years ago, and it gave a false impression of how much I dwell on Ireland. I don't.

From UnHerd

UnHerd is non-partisan. We are home to fresh thinking and free minds from across the political spectrum. We want to challenge groupthink – particularly in the media – and to help our readers break out of their political echo chambers.

I see their problem

Did I say that? I stated that claims by you that nobody wants criticism of the EU is either a lie or a delusion. I'm giving you credit on the delusion part.

Nice sweep onto UnHerd - what's that got to do with what you posted and responded to me on? Pivoting?

Growth since 2009: China 139%; India 96%; US 34%. Eurozone -2%.

Thats a challenge for the EU.

Mick Mannock wrote:None of that supports your claim that I am obsessed with Ireland. More likely I got into some spat years ago, and it gave a false impression of how much I dwell on Ireland. I don't.

From UnHerd

UnHerd is non-partisan. We are home to fresh thinking and free minds from across the political spectrum. We want to challenge groupthink – particularly in the media – and to help our readers break out of their political echo chambers.

I see their problem

Yes, there’s a lot in that article that hasn’t already been talked about before. Any publication whose a is to be edge lords can generally be relied upon to come up with shit takes on a regular basis. There’s nothing virtuous about shopping around for an opinion that suits you.

Mullet 2 wrote:

Conservative Eddie wrote:

Mullet 2 wrote:Ireland will bring down the Euro
Greece will bring down the EU
The PIIGS will bring down the EU
Eh it's just Greece again but it's going to happen
The Dutch will elect a far right Government
The immigration crises will bring down the EU
The French will elect Le Pen and bring down the EU

And now it's Italy

When they're wrong here it will become Hungary or fúcking Malta

Hmm, conceivably one or more of the above could have occured (or could still occur). However, you just can't shake the impression that any such analysis all too often falls foul of the author's own sincere desire to see any one of them transpire in the most spectacular manner possible.

I mean, the often intense interest in recent European elections - and a particular focus on the far-right - within the British press and from some of our English friends on here, seems to be more than merely academic in nature.

These people had convinced themselves the UK was the first domino.

Turns out they were last in the line and they knocked it over facing out

I have never seen the UK as the first domino - of tht a domino run was desirable. The Eu is a fine idea - for other people!

I just give you the facts.

The Irish debt crisis got reams of discussion and criticism from the bored/Irish - FACT
Ditto the Greek crisis and the Euro - FACT
The EU State Aid case against Apple/Ireland, lots of coverage - FACT

Sure they have - but by and large w/out the mindless antagonism much of the Swarm have brought to the Brexit debate. In fairness, plenty of Remainers are the same.

There's good arguments for an against Brexit. A genuine inability to see Brexit as anything other than an obvious mistake and/or the result of bad faith, is telling.

Benthos wrote: Thanks, M. Ronfleur. Enjoyed my toes' first dip into Unherd's limpid waters:

https://unherd.com/2019/02/why-are-illi ... hallenged/

A Trinity boy - the Swarm will hate him!

zzzz wrote:

I just give you the facts.

The Irish debt crisis got reams of discussion and criticism from the bored/Irish - FACT
Ditto the Greek crisis and the Euro - FACT
The EU State Aid case against Apple/Ireland, lots of coverage - FACT

Sure they have - but by and large w/out the mindless antagonism much of the Swarm have brought to the Brexit debate. In fairness, plenty of Remainers are the same.

There's good arguments for an against Brexit. A genuine inability to see Brexit as anything other than an obvious mistake and/or the result of bad faith, is telling.

Yes antagonism.

The UK press (including the supposed broadsheet the Telegraph) literally spent decades posting headlines about the EU and foreigners and have continued to do so and it is all the Swarm.

The UK press cried when Tusk mentioned Cherries ffs. Only a donkey would say the EU or Eurozone doesn't have challenges (but then, what doesn't?), people are just a bit of bored of the constant drip of doom.

zzzz wrote:

I just give you the facts.

The Irish debt crisis got reams of discussion and criticism from the bored/Irish - FACT
Ditto the Greek crisis and the Euro - FACT
The EU State Aid case against Apple/Ireland, lots of coverage - FACT

Sure they have - but by and large w/out the mindless antagonism much of the Swarm have brought to the Brexit debate. In fairness, plenty of Remainers are the same.

There's good arguments for an against Brexit. A genuine inability to see Brexit as anything other than an obvious mistake and/or the result of bad faith, is telling.

There are no good arguments for Brexit, at least if there is you boys have yet to make any of them

sewa wrote:

zzzz wrote:

I just give you the facts.

The Irish debt crisis got reams of discussion and criticism from the bored/Irish - FACT
Ditto the Greek crisis and the Euro - FACT
The EU State Aid case against Apple/Ireland, lots of coverage - FACT

Sure they have - but by and large w/out the mindless antagonism much of the Swarm have brought to the Brexit debate. In fairness, plenty of Remainers are the same.

There's good arguments for an against Brexit. A genuine inability to see Brexit as anything other than an obvious mistake and/or the result of bad faith, is telling.

There are no good arguments for Brexit, at least if there is you boys have yet to make any of them

I have no idea why anyone would volunteer an opinion that facile. As a matter of interest, are there any other popular politcal or public policy positions that you think are literally not supported by any argument?

Benthos wrote:

zzzz wrote:

redderneck wrote:

zzzz wrote:

ManInTheBar wrote:
To be fair you have bowled a slow, knee-high full toss. It's fair game

Really? I posted an opinion piece by the Professor of Political Economy at Cambridge University and and get a bunch of snide bollocks from idiots who are too stupid to realise editor's don't write everything on their paper and some frankly bizzare Nazi allusions.

The frankly bizarre allusions were thrown in by me - and I accept they are indeed totally OTT - to point out that it is not and cannot be permissable to seperate the content of an opinion from its source, not just its author but it's publisher/delivery channel. I'm trying to hammer that lesson home to my kids and guess I got stuck in the rails.

No more than that. Just a heavy handed reminder to dig deeper in order to frame whatever content might follow.

The EU has major issues to deal with and one upshot of what now appears to be the inevitable peeling away of Britain which I find upsetting, was that it has taken something as drastic as this to bring needed debate on the future of the EU to the surface, only to see it submerged again in the hysteria wrought by proximity to the precipice. Mea culpa on that score.

I believe this debate SHOULD have been possible from within an EU construct. And whether that is practical, realistic, or fanciful - time will tell.

The dust is going to need to settle on this before calmer debate can occur.

Fair enough - but you should give unherd a go. There's some interesting stuff on it. As well as Helen Thompson - who's very smart in my book and a bit of an EU sceptic - they also have that shouty-crackers-starkers woman who, err, isn't.

Thanks, M. Ronfleur. Enjoyed my toes' first dip into Unherd's limpid waters:

https://unherd.com/2019/02/why-are-illi ... hallenged/

I stopped reading as soon as it hid behind the magic Catholic church sky fairy. I will be concerned at the point the professor is being chemically lobotomised or imprisoned. Until then it just a bit of noise.

The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

Petej wrote: The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote: The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

Left in 2015 not really surprising.

Petej wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote: The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

Left in 2015 not really surprising.

Don't get me wrong - he wouldn't get many invites to dinner parties in Islington. But he aint a red in tooth and claw free marketeer.

Petej wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote: The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

Left in 2015 not really surprising.

Is that a turning point year in becoming "right wing" ?

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote: The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

Left in 2015 not really surprising.

Don't get me wrong - he wouldn't get many invites to dinner parties in Islington. But he aint a red in tooth and claw free marketeer.

You live in Islington? Do you know that nice chap, with a beard, seems harmless, on the telly bit wossiname Jerry something?

Petej wrote:

Benthos wrote:

zzzz wrote:

redderneck wrote:

zzzz wrote:
Really? I posted an opinion piece by the Professor of Political Economy at Cambridge University and and get a bunch of snide bollocks from idiots who are too stupid to realise editor's don't write everything on their paper and some frankly bizzare Nazi allusions.

The frankly bizarre allusions were thrown in by me - and I accept they are indeed totally OTT - to point out that it is not and cannot be permissable to seperate the content of an opinion from its source, not just its author but it's publisher/delivery channel. I'm trying to hammer that lesson home to my kids and guess I got stuck in the rails.

No more than that. Just a heavy handed reminder to dig deeper in order to frame whatever content might follow.

The EU has major issues to deal with and one upshot of what now appears to be the inevitable peeling away of Britain which I find upsetting, was that it has taken something as drastic as this to bring needed debate on the future of the EU to the surface, only to see it submerged again in the hysteria wrought by proximity to the precipice. Mea culpa on that score.

I believe this debate SHOULD have been possible from within an EU construct. And whether that is practical, realistic, or fanciful - time will tell.

The dust is going to need to settle on this before calmer debate can occur.

Fair enough - but you should give unherd a go. There's some interesting stuff on it. As well as Helen Thompson - who's very smart in my book and a bit of an EU sceptic - they also have that shouty-crackers-starkers woman who, err, isn't.

Thanks, M. Ronfleur. Enjoyed my toes' first dip into Unherd's limpid waters:

https://unherd.com/2019/02/why-are-illi ... hallenged/

I stopped reading as soon as it hid behind the magic Catholic church sky fairy. I will be concerned at the point the professor is being chemically lobotomised or imprisoned. Until then it just a bit of noise.

The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

Well that was quick. Though I guess the whole "we're non-partisan/apolitical" should have been enough of an indicator. The phrenologist's blog pulls the same schtick, though the whole thing is obviously even more transparent.

ManInTheBar wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote: The website name and use of the terms on it is try hard I would take a wild guess it is funded by right wing money. It is a proper right wing circle jerk.

Funded by Paul Marshall co founder of marshall-wace hedge fund. Brexit supporter with positions betting against the UK economy.

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

Left in 2015 not really surprising.

Don't get me wrong - he wouldn't get many invites to dinner parties in Islington. But he aint a red in tooth and claw free marketeer.

You live in Islington? Do you know that nice chap, with a beard, seems harmless, on the telly bit wossiname Jerry something?

Me? Christ no! Would rather smash my bollocks between two house bricks.

zzzz wrote: Me? Christ no! Would rather smash my bollocks between two house bricks.

Well obvs but would you like to live in Islington as well?

zzzz wrote:

ManInTheBar wrote:

zzzz wrote:

Petej wrote:

zzzz wrote:

That'll be the Paul Marshall who bankrolled the Lib Dems.

Left in 2015 not really surprising.

Don't get me wrong - he wouldn't get many invites to dinner parties in Islington. But he aint a red in tooth and claw free marketeer.

You live in Islington? Do you know that nice chap, with a beard, seems harmless, on the telly bit wossiname Jerry something?

Me? Christ no! Would rather smash my bollocks between two house bricks.

Is that how jezza refers to Dianne Abbott's butt cheeks?

Petej wrote:

zzzz wrote:

ManInTheBar wrote:
You live in Islington? Do you know that nice chap, with a beard, seems harmless, on the telly bit wossiname Jerry something?

Me? Christ no! Would rather smash my bollocks between two house bricks.

Is that how jezza refers to Dianne Abbott's butt cheeks?

I suspect they are not on the, err, firm side.