Planet Rugby Forum

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Two years ago the 6 Nations agreed to play more tests against tier two test nations in the July window. Than Pichot launched his abomination of a World League which goes back to a closed shop for over a decade, trying to follow what UEFA are doing with their Nations League and four of the 6 Nations unions appear to be against it.

I'd be more accepting of the world league if

1) It was once every two years

2) The Lions year was used to tour the tier 2 nations. Maybe the 4th November test was used to host a Tier 2 nation.

3) Relegation and promotion was in.

I'm equally concerned for all this extra money that teams will lose cash from ticket sales. Usually the 6 Nations put in a years advertising for the November tests. Now they will be advertising tickets without knowing what team will turn-up. Lots of Rugby fans love the AIs specifically because they want to see Australia or The All Blacks.

I'm also concerned about this language "to give test more meaning". Since when do tests have little meaning? Certainly up north they have huge meaning, I suspect because there aren't are repeat games like in the SH.

Last paragraph it is just drivel from Pichot. It would be like saying that the majority of tests played before 1987 and outside of the Five Nations are meaningless due to not being part of a competition. Bullshít and also insulting to those players who played in those test matches.

Re ticket sales grassroots clubs also sell those tickets as a fundraiser.

CM11 wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Jeff the Bear wrote:Anyone else tried to do the maths on this mythical 5 billion?

5 billion divided by 12 years, divided by 12 competitors = approximately 35 million each, per year.

Yet the talk is of only 10 million per team per year. What's happening with the other 25 million per team?

Wasn't the rest supposed to be invested by World Rugby? There is also the fact they'll set-up a women's version and invest in the women's game to speed up the development in many countries. Some of the money will be going to tier two nations and global infrastructure.

Still doesn't add up. If you work it the other way round, then 10 mill a year equals 1.44 billion over 12 years for 12 participants. Good money perhaps, but I'm not sure those 12 are going to sign up to a 5 billion project, when they are seemingly only going to get less than 30% of the dosh.

Growing the game is lovely and all, but the reason we're in the middle of a bidding war is because they're money grubbing plum looking to get their faces in the trough...I just can't see how 30% of any deal, even if that 30% is decent money, is any kind of deal these people will accept.

Like I said, something just doesn't add up.

It's 10m extra.

World Rugby’s proposed Nations Championship has hit a major barrier after the Rugby Football Union said that England’s relegation from the Six Nations would be “catastrophic” for the game on these shores.

The acting chief executive, Nigel Melville, is determined to avoid the doomsday scenario – however unlikely – of a two-year spell outside of the sport’s most successful annual tournament. It has been speculated that were England to drop into a tier two competition, then Twickenham may have to be sold to cover for the inevitable collapse in revenue.

In a comment that appears to end the prospect of the Nations Championship being approved, Melville insists the RFU will not allow ownership of its 82,000-seater ground to ever be threatened.

Reflecting on that possibility, Melville said: “I think we make sure it doesn’t arise. That solves that problem. You just don’t want to get into a situation where you’re making decisions like that.

“For us it could be catastrophic being relegated, commercially. To be relegated, the catastrophe isn’t just the team being relegated, it’s our ability to fund the game as a governing body in England.

“Can we fund the community game in England to the level we do now if we don’t have the revenues we have? And on the point of promotion and relegation, there’s no promotion and relegation in a Lions year and there’s no tournament in a World Cup year.

“So when you’re relegated, you’re relegated for two years, not one. It’s not quite up and down, one season on the naughty step and go back up, it’s actually two years and that could be a disaster for people.”

The Nations Championship is World Rugby’s vision for the global game after Japan 2019 and takes the format of a cross-hemisphere league that would result in the top teams from the Six Nations and Rugby Championship meeting at the end of the year.

Relegation and promotion based on overall league performance is a foundation of the plan in the hope it will create depth by offering tier two teams a place among the elite, but some European unions including Ireland and Scotland are vehemently opposed.

World Rugby insists it has investment of £5bn over 12 years to inject into the Nations Championship, while the Six Nations have their own cash source in the shape of a large offer from private equity firm CVC Partners.

The RFU board will continue its discussions before another meeting of the Six Nations unions is held. A decision must be made in two weeks and for the Nations Championship to proceed, there has to be unanimous support from all teams involved.

naki wrote:

camroc1 wrote:“With the proposed model incorporating competitions that are not owned or run by World Rugby, not all unions are presently in favour of immediate promotion and relegation,” World Rugby (WR) stated. “We continue to consider the feedback, but remain absolutely committed to an eventual pathway for all.”

At least two current members of the Six Nations are believed to be strongly resisting relegation.

These nations will never be in favour of pro/rel, which makes the entire concept a waste of time.

Can't see how this league would ever get off the ground without ring-fencing, yet WR cannot possibly ring-fence a competition of this scale and still call themselves "World" Rugby with a straight face.

Odds still firmly on the status quo remaining for the foreseeable future.

LandOTurk wrote:Money aside, which of course you can't, but the beauty of the 6N is its relative proximity. You can get to any of these locations in 3 hours or so - very cheaply. And they are all developed countries.

Looking at Div2 has this been put together by a boredie or is it official?

European Conference Div 1 = 6 Nations
European Conference Div 2 = Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Belgium

I'd have Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Belgium. So Portugal and the Netherlands would miss out. If there was a way to incorporate these into the 6N, and not worry about the rest of the world. Keep that as it is. The 6Ns job would be to help develop Europe and Europe only. Play our A sides against them in two conferences that flipped every two years much like the P14.

Conf 1: England Saxons, Scotland A, Italy A, Georgia, Russia, Belgium - home or away
Conf 2: Wales A, Irish Wolfhounds, France A, Romania, Spain, Germany - home or away

Home games not played in Cardiff, London, Dublin etc but in Llanelli, Bath, Limerick, Tblisi, Bucharest etc. I think you'd get a good turnout (cheap tickets, maybe free for kids under 12 - as tv money is the big revenue driver) and could wrap it into the same 6N weekends. Any 6N tv deal includes this 2nd tier 6N moving forward. As this would eat up the P12 countries' professional players, you'd have no P14 for 2 months. I could handle that.

Working Class Rugger wrote:

LandOTurk wrote:Money aside, which of course you can't, but the beauty of the 6N is its relative proximity. You can get to any of these locations in 3 hours or so - very cheaply. And they are all developed countries.

Looking at Div2 has this been put together by a boredie or is it official?

European Conference Div 1 = 6 Nations
European Conference Div 2 = Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Belgium

I'd have Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Belgium. So Portugal and the Netherlands would miss out. If there was a way to incorporate these into the 6N, and not worry about the rest of the world. Keep that as it is. The 6Ns job would be to help develop Europe and Europe only. Play our A sides against them in two conferences that flipped every two years much like the P14.

Conf 1: England Saxons, Scotland A, Italy A, Georgia, Russia, Belgium - home or away
Conf 2: Wales A, Irish Wolfhounds, France A, Romania, Spain, Germany - home or away

Home games not played in Cardiff, London, Dublin etc but in Llanelli, Bath, Limerick, Tblisi, Bucharest etc. I think you'd get a good turnout (cheap tickets, maybe free for kids under 12 - as tv money is the big revenue driver) and could wrap it into the same 6N weekends. Any 6N tv deal includes this 2nd tier 6N moving forward. As this would eat up the P12 countries' professional players, you'd have no P14 for 2 months. I could handle that.

What happens if/when these teams start to manage to beat the A sides? Would promotion be an option or will it remain a closed shop? That and the Pro 14 nations not being overly keen on taking a 2 month break mid season are the only questions that I would need answered. Similar could be done with the RC. Add Japan and Fiji to the 1st division and then have the current 4 run A teams or in NZ case Maori in a similar two conferences:

Conference 1: South Africa A, Jaguars XV, Namibia, Kenya, Uruguay, Brasil.
Conference 2: Maori, Aus A, Samoa, Tonga, U.SA, Canada

Each team plays each once for 11 games plus a top 4 finals series. Would include arguable the top 24 teams in the world playing 11 games a year. They could the use the respective regional championships to promote nations who can compete for the right to play the bottom placed team in the 2nd division for the right to participate in the next years competition.

mdaclarke wrote:

Working Class Rugger wrote:

LandOTurk wrote:Money aside, which of course you can't, but the beauty of the 6N is its relative proximity. You can get to any of these locations in 3 hours or so - very cheaply. And they are all developed countries.

Looking at Div2 has this been put together by a boredie or is it official?

European Conference Div 1 = 6 Nations
European Conference Div 2 = Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Belgium

I'd have Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Belgium. So Portugal and the Netherlands would miss out. If there was a way to incorporate these into the 6N, and not worry about the rest of the world. Keep that as it is. The 6Ns job would be to help develop Europe and Europe only. Play our A sides against them in two conferences that flipped every two years much like the P14.

Conf 1: England Saxons, Scotland A, Italy A, Georgia, Russia, Belgium - home or away
Conf 2: Wales A, Irish Wolfhounds, France A, Romania, Spain, Germany - home or away

Home games not played in Cardiff, London, Dublin etc but in Llanelli, Bath, Limerick, Tblisi, Bucharest etc. I think you'd get a good turnout (cheap tickets, maybe free for kids under 12 - as tv money is the big revenue driver) and could wrap it into the same 6N weekends. Any 6N tv deal includes this 2nd tier 6N moving forward. As this would eat up the P12 countries' professional players, you'd have no P14 for 2 months. I could handle that.

What happens if/when these teams start to manage to beat the A sides? Would promotion be an option or will it remain a closed shop? That and the Pro 14 nations not being overly keen on taking a 2 month break mid season are the only questions that I would need answered. Similar could be done with the RC. Add Japan and Fiji to the 1st division and then have the current 4 run A teams or in NZ case Maori in a similar two conferences:

Conference 1: South Africa A, Jaguars XV, Namibia, Kenya, Uruguay, Brasil.
Conference 2: Maori, Aus A, Samoa, Tonga, U.SA, Canada

Each team plays each once for 11 games plus a top 4 finals series. Would include arguable the top 24 teams in the world playing 11 games a year. They could the use the respective regional championships to promote nations who can compete for the right to play the bottom placed team in the 2nd division for the right to participate in the next years competition.

What ever happens there won't be promotion and relegation. Fiji and Japan will be in Division 2.

Working Class Rugger wrote:

mdaclarke wrote:

Working Class Rugger wrote:

LandOTurk wrote:Money aside, which of course you can't, but the beauty of the 6N is its relative proximity. You can get to any of these locations in 3 hours or so - very cheaply. And they are all developed countries.

Looking at Div2 has this been put together by a boredie or is it official?

European Conference Div 1 = 6 Nations
European Conference Div 2 = Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Belgium

I'd have Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Belgium. So Portugal and the Netherlands would miss out. If there was a way to incorporate these into the 6N, and not worry about the rest of the world. Keep that as it is. The 6Ns job would be to help develop Europe and Europe only. Play our A sides against them in two conferences that flipped every two years much like the P14.

Conf 1: England Saxons, Scotland A, Italy A, Georgia, Russia, Belgium - home or away
Conf 2: Wales A, Irish Wolfhounds, France A, Romania, Spain, Germany - home or away

Home games not played in Cardiff, London, Dublin etc but in Llanelli, Bath, Limerick, Tblisi, Bucharest etc. I think you'd get a good turnout (cheap tickets, maybe free for kids under 12 - as tv money is the big revenue driver) and could wrap it into the same 6N weekends. Any 6N tv deal includes this 2nd tier 6N moving forward. As this would eat up the P12 countries' professional players, you'd have no P14 for 2 months. I could handle that.

What happens if/when these teams start to manage to beat the A sides? Would promotion be an option or will it remain a closed shop? That and the Pro 14 nations not being overly keen on taking a 2 month break mid season are the only questions that I would need answered. Similar could be done with the RC. Add Japan and Fiji to the 1st division and then have the current 4 run A teams or in NZ case Maori in a similar two conferences:

Conference 1: South Africa A, Jaguars XV, Namibia, Kenya, Uruguay, Brasil.
Conference 2: Maori, Aus A, Samoa, Tonga, U.SA, Canada

Each team plays each once for 11 games plus a top 4 finals series. Would include arguable the top 24 teams in the world playing 11 games a year. They could the use the respective regional championships to promote nations who can compete for the right to play the bottom placed team in the 2nd division for the right to participate in the next years competition.

What ever happens there won't be promotion and relegation. Fiji and Japan will be in Division 2.

A way around that is not have it as relegation from the respective conferences but the division as a whole. So you play everyone of the 11 other teams once and you are ranked 1-12 with the top 4 going through to the semi-final and final and the 12th ranked team into a pro/rel play off game. This way adding Fiji and Japan makes sense to create a buffer as I suspect we'll see one of those two at the bottom of the pile for a little while.

mdaclarke wrote:

Working Class Rugger wrote:

mdaclarke wrote:

Working Class Rugger wrote:

LandOTurk wrote:Money aside, which of course you can't, but the beauty of the 6N is its relative proximity. You can get to any of these locations in 3 hours or so - very cheaply. And they are all developed countries.

Looking at Div2 has this been put together by a boredie or is it official?

European Conference Div 1 = 6 Nations
European Conference Div 2 = Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Portugal, Belgium

I'd have Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Belgium. So Portugal and the Netherlands would miss out. If there was a way to incorporate these into the 6N, and not worry about the rest of the world. Keep that as it is. The 6Ns job would be to help develop Europe and Europe only. Play our A sides against them in two conferences that flipped every two years much like the P14.

Conf 1: England Saxons, Scotland A, Italy A, Georgia, Russia, Belgium - home or away
Conf 2: Wales A, Irish Wolfhounds, France A, Romania, Spain, Germany - home or away

Home games not played in Cardiff, London, Dublin etc but in Llanelli, Bath, Limerick, Tblisi, Bucharest etc. I think you'd get a good turnout (cheap tickets, maybe free for kids under 12 - as tv money is the big revenue driver) and could wrap it into the same 6N weekends. Any 6N tv deal includes this 2nd tier 6N moving forward. As this would eat up the P12 countries' professional players, you'd have no P14 for 2 months. I could handle that.

What happens if/when these teams start to manage to beat the A sides? Would promotion be an option or will it remain a closed shop? That and the Pro 14 nations not being overly keen on taking a 2 month break mid season are the only questions that I would need answered. Similar could be done with the RC. Add Japan and Fiji to the 1st division and then have the current 4 run A teams or in NZ case Maori in a similar two conferences:

Conference 1: South Africa A, Jaguars XV, Namibia, Kenya, Uruguay, Brasil.
Conference 2: Maori, Aus A, Samoa, Tonga, U.SA, Canada

Each team plays each once for 11 games plus a top 4 finals series. Would include arguable the top 24 teams in the world playing 11 games a year. They could the use the respective regional championships to promote nations who can compete for the right to play the bottom placed team in the 2nd division for the right to participate in the next years competition.

What ever happens there won't be promotion and relegation. Fiji and Japan will be in Division 2.

A way around that is not have it as relegation from the respective conferences but the division as a whole. So you play everyone of the 11 other teams once and you are ranked 1-12 with the top 4 going through to the semi-final and final and the 12th ranked team into a pro/rel play off game. This way adding Fiji and Japan makes sense to create a buffer as I suspect we'll see one of those two at the bottom of the pile for a little while.

The 6N will never agree to any form of relegation, ever.

mdaclarke wrote:I personally like the idea of a closed shop 10 team tournament. I know most people will disagree with me but I think Rugby would be best served by concentrating on keeping the tier 1 teams strong.

Working Class Rugger wrote:Apparently the offer has gone up to £6.2b over 12 years according to the Daily Mail. Guaranteeing £377m in funding annually.

LandOTurk wrote:

Working Class Rugger wrote:Apparently the offer has gone up to £6.2b over 12 years according to the Daily Mail. Guaranteeing £377m in funding annually.

Will this all just inflate wages?

Jimcardiff wrote:If this comes about the 6 Nations will become a pools stage of a WR competition, so run by WR ,how big will their cut for running it be.
To me this is just a way of WR getting a hold of NH money.

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:

eldanielfire wrote:

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Two years ago the 6 Nations agreed to play more tests against tier two test nations in the July window. Than Pichot launched his abomination of a World League which goes back to a closed shop for over a decade, trying to follow what UEFA are doing with their Nations League and four of the 6 Nations unions appear to be against it.

I'd be more accepting of the world league if

1) It was once every two years

2) The Lions year was used to tour the tier 2 nations. Maybe the 4th November test was used to host a Tier 2 nation.

3) Relegation and promotion was in.

I'm equally concerned for all this extra money that teams will lose cash from ticket sales. Usually the 6 Nations put in a years advertising for the November tests. Now they will be advertising tickets without knowing what team will turn-up. Lots of Rugby fans love the AIs specifically because they want to see Australia or The All Blacks.

I'm also concerned about this language "to give test more meaning". Since when do tests have little meaning? Certainly up north they have huge meaning, I suspect because there aren't are repeat games like in the SH.

Last paragraph it is just drivel from Pichot. It would be like saying that the majority of tests played before 1987 and outside of the Five Nations are meaningless due to not being part of a competition. Bullshít and also insulting to those players who played in those test matches.

Re ticket sales grassroots clubs also sell those tickets as a fundraiser.

mdaclarke wrote:The real question is will World Rugby sell the 2 tier nations down the river?

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Anon, no real Rugby man would label a test match a friendly. We don’t need another international competition.

Arg, Aus and SA need to get their own house in order. It is not the Six Nations’ responsibility to bail them out. It will also paper over their constant mismanagement (the IRB should be addressing it). There is nothing to stop SANZAAR from approaching CMC themselves.

Italy should just come out and say no. There is no way they would agree to relegation. This farce is Rugby’s version of Brexit.

mdaclarke wrote:

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Anon, no real Rugby man would label a test match a friendly. We don’t need another international competition.

Arg, Aus and SA need to get their own house in order. It is not the Six Nations’ responsibility to bail them out. It will also paper over their constant mismanagement (the IRB should be addressing it). There is nothing to stop SANZAAR from approaching CMC themselves.

Italy should just come out and say no. There is no way they would agree to relegation. This farce is Rugby’s version of Brexit.

I don't think it is that bad for Argentina, Australia and South Africa. I think there is a good chance of an all Southern Hemisphere Semi Final at the World Cup

Money talks and I can see World Rugby doing a deal and agreeing to a 10 team closed shop format as there is more chance of Jeremy Corbyn converting to Judaism moving to Israel, becoming PM of Israel and founding a new Israeli settlement on the West Bank than there is of the 6N ever agreeing to promotion and relegation.

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Anon, no real Rugby man would label a test match a friendly. We don’t need another international competition.
Arg, Aus and SA need to get their own house in order. It is not the Six Nations’ responsibility to bail them out. It will also paper over their constant mismanagement (the IRB should be addressing it). There is nothing to stop SANZAAR from approaching CMC themselves.

Italy should just come out and say no. There is no way they would agree to relegation. This farce is Rugby’s version of Brexit.

Anonymous. wrote:The 6N's should stand alone. All they really want is a slice of our pie.

Caley_Red wrote:

mdaclarke wrote:

Brumby_in_Vic wrote:Anon, no real Rugby man would label a test match a friendly. We don’t need another international competition.

Arg, Aus and SA need to get their own house in order. It is not the Six Nations’ responsibility to bail them out. It will also paper over their constant mismanagement (the IRB should be addressing it). There is nothing to stop SANZAAR from approaching CMC themselves.

Italy should just come out and say no. There is no way they would agree to relegation. This farce is Rugby’s version of Brexit.

I don't think it is that bad for Argentina, Australia and South Africa. I think there is a good chance of an all Southern Hemisphere Semi Final at the World Cup

Money talks and I can see World Rugby doing a deal and agreeing to a 10 team closed shop format as there is more chance of Jeremy Corbyn converting to Judaism moving to Israel, becoming PM of Israel and founding a new Israeli settlement on the West Bank than there is of the 6N ever agreeing to promotion and relegation.

Not much change of that, I think Oz are QFs and I wouldn't be surprised if Argentina go out in the group stage.

mdaclarke wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/world-ru ... -proposal/

New "deadline" friday

The 6N will never agree to relegation. Until this is taken off the table there will be no agreement.

LandOTurk wrote:

Anonymous. wrote:The 6N's should stand alone. All they really want is a slice of our pie.

100% in agreement.

Working Class Rugger wrote:

mdaclarke wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/world-ru ... -proposal/

New "deadline" friday

The 6N will never agree to relegation. Until this is taken off the table there will be no agreement.

The relegation issue is a fairly easy fix in my opinion. Instead of 12 teams in the the top division make it 16. Eight in the Europe division and 8 in the RoTW. Two pools a division. So England, Wales, Scotland plus Europe 1 and Ireland, France, Italy and Europe 2. Make so each team has to play each team from the two pools in their division once and four teams from the one of the RoTW pools for 11 games.

Just for the sake of it using current WR rankings the 8 RoTW teams would be NZ, SA, Aus, Arg, Japan, Fiji, Tonga and the USA. Not exactly an noncompetitive lot. Run the same set up. Play everyone in your division once and 4 teams from the one of the corresponding pools in the Europe division. Some of those games won't necessarily fill Twickenham but that opens up the opportunity of playing to spread some games around at smaller venues.

Regarding relegation. After the 11 games are done and the finalists are determined use points etc. to determine finally ranking 3-16 and have the bottom team play off in a promotion/relegation with the winner of the 2nd Div.

This would ensure a significant buffer would be in place and it would be rather unlikely any of the T1 teams will fund themselves in any serious threat of actually being relegated at any time during the length of the proposed deal.

LandOTurk wrote:

Working Class Rugger wrote:

mdaclarke wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/world-ru ... -proposal/

New "deadline" friday

The 6N will never agree to relegation. Until this is taken off the table there will be no agreement.

The relegation issue is a fairly easy fix in my opinion. Instead of 12 teams in the the top division make it 16. Eight in the Europe division and 8 in the RoTW. Two pools a division. So England, Wales, Scotland plus Europe 1 and Ireland, France, Italy and Europe 2. Make so each team has to play each team from the two pools in their division once and four teams from the one of the RoTW pools for 11 games.

Just for the sake of it using current WR rankings the 8 RoTW teams would be NZ, SA, Aus, Arg, Japan, Fiji, Tonga and the USA. Not exactly an noncompetitive lot. Run the same set up. Play everyone in your division once and 4 teams from the one of the corresponding pools in the Europe division. Some of those games won't necessarily fill Twickenham but that opens up the opportunity of playing to spread some games around at smaller venues.

Regarding relegation. After the 11 games are done and the finalists are determined use points etc. to determine finally ranking 3-16 and have the bottom team play off in a promotion/relegation with the winner of the 2nd Div.

This would ensure a significant buffer would be in place and it would be rather unlikely any of the T1 teams will fund themselves in any serious threat of actually being relegated at any time during the length of the proposed deal.

I am assuming the 6N is retained as part of this.

Also, you assume that the 4 SH teams want to share the pot with the likes of Fiji etc. They do not.