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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:27 am 
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Kahu wrote:
Because he is no longer our best 8. 2015 called, they said Read has peaked. Interestingly enough we do have an issue with finding a blindside. For awhile I've been of the school of thought that Cane should go there but Read is the most logical option. We need Read. We need Akira. We need a blindside. As Spock would say, it's logic.

Piutau is but a pipe dream and Hansen would be too proud to ask for his help anyway. Can't help but feel we are gonna miss not having Piutau and Tamanivalu in our squad come RWC


If Read isn’t nzs best no. 8 then who is?

As of last international season Hansen rates read as our first choice then whitelock

At 6 we have frizzel,squire,hemapo -even Taufua is an option

Think your logic is flawed -we have plenty of options at 6


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:28 am 
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Read has clearly peaked, this is his last year after all but I disagree that he is not our best 8.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:38 am 
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This all reminds me of the naysayers with carter pre last rwc

Class is permanent- experience is crucial at rwcs

As a blues fan I would love to see him in the rwc squad - but no way would I prefer him starting a crucial rwc game ahead of Read or moving Read to blindside to get akira in the side

The guy still hasn’t proven he has the right temperament either -and the top 2 inches - not to do something stupid as well

Hansen has spent time developing a few potential blindsides last year - not sure he’s going to waste that either


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:42 am 
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Read has peaked and we can only keep our fingers crossed that Akira continues to develop because while the ABs were as strong as with a bunch of the current lot at their peak through the mid-2010s, the current squad definitely needs a couple more world class stars coming through. Guys who are going to own their position for a couple of rounds of RWCs and build experience.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:51 am 
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brat wrote:
This all reminds me of the naysayers with carter pre last rwc

Class is permanent- experience is crucial at rwcs

As a blues fan I would love to see him in the rwc squad - but no way would I prefer him starting a crucial rwc game ahead of Read or moving Read to blindside to get akira in the side

The guy still hasn’t proven he has the right temperament either -and the top 2 inches - not to do something stupid as well

Hansen has spent time developing a few potential blindsides last year - not sure he’s going to waste that either


Everyone has their own angle on this and yours seems to be one of rejecting possibilities. I'm a Read fan, I think he's been an outstanding player. I think having to succeed McCaw as captain was a massive set of boots to fill and he's done that in his own way. I don't want to replace him but I think we're being very dumb if we don't go into this RWC with a strong replacement ready to go and we are out of time. Akira brings enough to the table to be given a crack at least.

There is one thing that worries me greatly about this year and this thread addresses one aspect of it. The idea of BB at 10 come RWC is enough of a worry in itself... but I feel that we are poorly prepared with regard to depth across the park and key positions especially. Last year someone posted a graphic showing minutes played by individual players across the major test teams... Read was a standout in playing nearly all our test minutes at 8. That's not good. Who else is getting the run there? Did we learn nothing from the Stephen Donald whitebaiting trip?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:54 am 
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6. Squire
7. Cane
8. Read

19. S Barrett
20. Savea

Is still my bet for the RWC

After the RWC:

5. S Barrett
6. Frizell
7. Cane
8. A Ioane

19. Hemopo
20. Savea


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:00 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
brat wrote:
This all reminds me of the naysayers with carter pre last rwc

Class is permanent- experience is crucial at rwcs

As a blues fan I would love to see him in the rwc squad - but no way would I prefer him starting a crucial rwc game ahead of Read or moving Read to blindside to get akira in the side

The guy still hasn’t proven he has the right temperament either -and the top 2 inches - not to do something stupid as well

Hansen has spent time developing a few potential blindsides last year - not sure he’s going to waste that either


Everyone has their own angle on this and yours seems to be one of rejecting possibilities. I'm a Read fan, I think he's been an outstanding player. I think having to succeed McCaw as captain was a massive set of boots to fill and he's done that in his own way. I don't want to replace him but I think we're being very dumb if we don't go into this RWC with a strong replacement ready to go and we are out of time. Akira brings enough to the table to be given a crack at least.

There is one thing that worries me greatly about this year and this thread addresses one aspect of it. The idea of BB at 10 come RWC is enough of a worry in itself... but I feel that we are poorly prepared with regard to depth across the park and key positions especially. Last year someone posted a graphic showing minutes played by individual players across the major test teams... Read was a standout in playing nearly all our test minutes at 8. That's not good. Who else is getting the run there? Did we learn nothing from the Stephen Donald whitebaiting trip?


Luke Whitelock is the only one with significant 8 minutes, apart from Ardie stepping into the role for a couple of games.

We are entirely reliant on a fit Read there. It's understandable that as captain he would have played the vast majority of tests there since 2015, but the other reason he hasn't been rotated as much as someone in his position may have been in the past is that the teams where we traditionally rotate during the season (eg Ireland, Scotland, Argentina) are much stronger than before and it's all-hands-on-deck to ensure victory. And even then that doesn't absolutely ensure victory.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:01 am 
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Yeah well they won Bill with Beaver so don't get too carried away Brat. History is littered with examples of players who held on too long (that said I'm not advocating dropping him, only shifting him).


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:28 am 
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naki wrote:

Luke Whitelock is the only one with significant 8 minutes, apart from Ardie stepping into the role for a couple of games.

We are entirely reliant on a fit Read there. It's understandable that as captain he would have played the vast majority of tests there since 2015, but the other reason he hasn't been rotated as much as someone in his position may have been in the past is that the teams where we traditionally rotate during the season (eg Ireland, Scotland, Argentina) are much stronger than before and it's all-hands-on-deck to ensure victory. And even then that doesn't absolutely ensure victory.


It is understandable but we could have shifted him to 6 to keep him on the park as captain. It's the nature of the game I guess, that you don't get the luxury of trialling players at test level. Perhaps NZ have been spoilt in that regard in the past and this is the great leveller that will bring us back to the pack.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:36 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
naki wrote:

Luke Whitelock is the only one with significant 8 minutes, apart from Ardie stepping into the role for a couple of games.

We are entirely reliant on a fit Read there. It's understandable that as captain he would have played the vast majority of tests there since 2015, but the other reason he hasn't been rotated as much as someone in his position may have been in the past is that the teams where we traditionally rotate during the season (eg Ireland, Scotland, Argentina) are much stronger than before and it's all-hands-on-deck to ensure victory. And even then that doesn't absolutely ensure victory.


It is understandable but we could have shifted him to 6 to keep him on the park as captain. It's the nature of the game I guess, that you don't get the luxury of trialling players at test level. Perhaps NZ have been spoilt in that regard in the past and this is the great leveller that will bring us back to the pack.


Hansen hasn’t had the luxury of a Vito or a Kaino to cover for Read in big matches and potentially shift him to blindside as, with all due to respect to LW and Akira, he hasn’t had players of that caliber to rely on. Akira may one day get there, and is finally showing real signs of it, but for the last few seasons no one has really made a compelling case of deserving that back-up option. Whitelock has always been a stop gap at best.

For a WC squad players with the utility to play at least two backrow positions to a high level will be selected, which is how Vito got the gig (successfully) and Masoe as well (less successfully). Savea has that utility value in spades which may see him cover the bench at the cup if Cane recovers. There’s little point in a specialist eight as back up


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:59 am 
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naki wrote:

Hansen hasn’t had the luxury of a Vito or a Kaino to cover for Read in big matches and potentially shift him to blindside as, with all due to respect to LW and Akira, he hasn’t had players of that caliber to rely on. Akira may one day get there, and is finally showing real signs of it, but for the last few seasons no one has really made a compelling case of deserving that back-up option. Whitelock has always been a stop gap at best.

For a WC squad players with the utility to play at least two backrow positions to a high level will be selected, which is how Vito got the gig (successfully) and Masoe as well (less successfully). Savea has that utility value in spades which may see him cover the bench at the cup if Cane recovers. There’s little point in a specialist eight as back up


I know it's nitpicking and unreasonable but I'd prefer to have seen a genuine 8 being brought along, all the more so as Read's durability has been falling away... but the risk of losing games for the sake of doing so is unpalatable to many. There's also the issue of other developing players needing time as well.

What we need is a second competition serving as a feeder or development level. Something say, involving other teams and a seperate series perhaps, maybe even a sort of Pacific Nations Cup.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:25 am 
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guy smiley wrote:

What we need is a second competition serving as a feeder or development level. Something say, involving other teams and a seperate series perhaps, maybe even a sort of Pacific Nations Cup.


I always liked the concept of NZ A for development and for say games in Oacific and even say Georgia etc. MAB has it's own path but it's not NZ A.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:48 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
brat wrote:
This all reminds me of the naysayers with carter pre last rwc

Class is permanent- experience is crucial at rwcs

As a blues fan I would love to see him in the rwc squad - but no way would I prefer him starting a crucial rwc game ahead of Read or moving Read to blindside to get akira in the side

The guy still hasn’t proven he has the right temperament either -and the top 2 inches - not to do something stupid as well

Hansen has spent time developing a few potential blindsides last year - not sure he’s going to waste that either


Everyone has their own angle on this and yours seems to be one of rejecting possibilities. I'm a Read fan, I think he's been an outstanding player. I think having to succeed McCaw as captain was a massive set of boots to fill and he's done that in his own way. I don't want to replace him but I think we're being very dumb if we don't go into this RWC with a strong replacement ready to go and we are out of time. Akira brings enough to the table to be given a crack at least.

There is one thing that worries me greatly about this year and this thread addresses one aspect of it. The idea of BB at 10 come RWC is enough of a worry in itself... but I feel that we are poorly prepared with regard to depth across the park and key positions especially. Last year someone posted a graphic showing minutes played by individual players across the major test teams... Read was a standout in playing nearly all our test minutes at 8. That's not good. Who else is getting the run there? Did we learn nothing from the Stephen Donald whitebaiting trip?


Not rejecting possibilities- as I said I wouldn’t mind akira in a potential squad - although his lack of versatility might go against him in that decision
I’m guessing if he’s not named in rwc squad he will train with the team and be on standby just in case
Agree about Barrett and lack of depth at 8 though- think they will counter that by including him in at least extended squad training -maybe play him in the rugby championship


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:58 am 
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Sonny Blount wrote:
After the RWC:

5. S Barrett
6. Frizell
7. Cane
8. A Ioane

19. Hemopo
20. Savea


He's off to Japan.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:10 am 
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Is there any reason why in the medium term, Scott Barrett couldn't be a viable option at blindside flanker? He ticks a lot of boxes in terms of being a big, strong body, being a workaholic, a strong defender and a good lineout/lifting option. Having watched him closely for years I think he's got the mobility to be a test standard 6, the only thing he lacks is a strong ball-running game. Playing Barrett at 6 would allow the All Blacks to field a looser, ball-running style of no.8 (Akira Ioane). Post RWC this backrow looks as good as any I've see;

8. Akira Ioane
7. Sam Cane or Ardie Savea
6. Scott Barrett


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:19 am 
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Doesn’t fit the enforcer stereotype I guess, though you answered that with Ioane.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:53 am 
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Back to BB.
There's no doubt that most of us see a huge upside in having RMo at 10. He can soak up the physical stuff and take the sting out of a rush defence, and then we can utilize him and BB on both sides of the park as first receivers. It's a more solid variation on what Hansen was looking for with DMac and BB. It also gives us two goal-kicking options on the park, and we could even have BB, Bender and Reiko interchanging at the back. Fit any two of SBW, Crotty, ALB, or Goodhue in the midfield, Smith at 9, and we have a dream scenario that would be a nightmare to defend against.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:47 pm 
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I don't need my thread to be dominant, or to troll mercilessly to be satisfied.

The fact more than half the Kiwis on this thread want Mo'unga as 10 speaks volumes.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:51 pm 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
There, I've said it.

Beauden Barrett is not a great first-five and his inability to control a tight match, or manage a tight contest against a strong defensive team, will cost us the RWC.

Barrett plays like a God against weak teams and poor defences, but as we've seen time and time again he struggles badly against quality opposition. We saw it against the B&I Lions, we saw it against Ireland and we've seen it against the Crusaders in recent years; against a committed, well-structured defense he's got no answers. Unless he's making line breaks he's doesn't add to a performance. He may as well not be there. He doesn't create time or space for his outside players with his passing game, and his general play kicking game (whilst it's getting better as he matures) is only average.


Sing Hallelujah!
Sing it
Sing Hallelujah!
Sing it, yeah!
Sing Hallelujah ...!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Peteray wrote:
Back to BB.
There's no doubt that most of us see a huge upside in having RMo at 10. He can soak up the physical stuff and take the sting out of a rush defence, and then we can utilize him and BB on both sides of the park as first receivers. It's a more solid variation on what Hansen was looking for with DMac and BB. It also gives us two goal-kicking options on the park, and we could even have BB, Bender and Reiko interchanging at the back. Fit any two of SBW, Crotty, ALB, or Goodhue in the midfield, Smith at 9, and we have a dream scenario that would be a nightmare to defend against.


A mouth watering prospect. Does BB start in this scenario or come off the bench?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:21 pm 
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I maintain BB is far too good to be benched. What he adds to the team outside of core 10 skills is unbelievable. Probably our best scrambling defender.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Luke Jacobson - at 6 - as our third jumper.

8. Akira
7. Savea
6. Jacobson


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:09 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
Is there any reason why in the medium term, Scott Barrett couldn't be a viable option at blindside flanker? He ticks a lot of boxes in terms of being a big, strong body, being a workaholic, a strong defender and a good lineout/lifting option. Having watched him closely for years I think he's got the mobility to be a test standard 6, the only thing he lacks is a strong ball-running game. Playing Barrett at 6 would allow the All Blacks to field a looser, ball-running style of no.8 (Akira Ioane). Post RWC this backrow looks as good as any I've see;

8. Akira Ioane
7. Sam Cane or Ardie Savea
6. Scott Barrett


Scott would do a great job at 6.
The only issue is that we would then need to find someone to replace him as the third lock.
I guess that would be Tuipolotu, he seems to be finally having a more consistent impact for the Blues.
if Tuipolotu fades again, they might not have the luxury.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:24 am 
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S. Barrett doesn't have the power to be a 6. Read is nailed on 8 so you can forget about Akira as starter. Frizzle should be 6.
Frizzle
Savea
Read.

As for 10, BB is nailed on. Mo'unga can finish off the games.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:43 am 
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If Whetu Douglas continues his current form, could he force his way into the All Blacks equation?

This year might be a bit late, but I could certainly see him doing a job post-WC.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:50 am 
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mrbrownstone wrote:
If Whetu Douglas continues his current form, could he force his way into the All Blacks equation?

This year might be a bit late, but I could certainly see him doing a job post-WC.

Can he hold down a starting spot once read is back? I mean, it's not like he's a Highlander and being the team bus driver will get him a start as an AB loosie.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:51 am 
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A bit off the BB topics but it just shows how the transition from the McCaw/ Carter era to the current era hasn't quite settled in the long term incumbents the way we were back in 2007, 11 and 15.

Backrow(debut season)
2007 McCaw (2001), Soialo (2003), Collins (2000)
2011 McCaw (2001), Read (2008), Kaino (2004)
2015 McCaw (2001), Read (2008), Kaino (2004)
2019 Cane (2012), Read (2008), Squire, Frizzel, Fifita, Barrett ???

So in 2007-2015 we had seasoned pros who were locked in incumbents with a world of experience at or near the peak of their powers. Now we have Cane who is very good but has suffered some significant recent injuries and hasn't played in a world cup knockout match. Read who is slightly faded/jaded and also struggling following recent injuries. Clearly past his peak. As for blindside???? WTF would know?

Same with the midfield (although 2007 wasn't great but there was a lot of talent in the wider squad including Aaron Mauger and Smith/Nonu).

2007 McAlister, Mils Muliaina x(
2011 Nonu(2003)/Smith(2004)
2015 Nonu(2003)/Smith(2004)
2019 Crotty, SBW, Laumape, Goodhue, ALB

So from 2008-2015 Nonu/Smith was our locked down incumbent midfield. In 2019 I wouldn't have a clue what our 1st choice midfield is.

Doesn't bode well for me. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:58 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
mrbrownstone wrote:
If Whetu Douglas continues his current form, could he force his way into the All Blacks equation?

This year might be a bit late, but I could certainly see him doing a job post-WC.

Can he hold down a starting spot once read is back? I mean, it's not like he's a Highlander and being the team bus driver will get him a start as an AB loosie.

Image


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:05 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
mrbrownstone wrote:
If Whetu Douglas continues his current form, could he force his way into the All Blacks equation?

This year might be a bit late, but I could certainly see him doing a job post-WC.

Can he hold down a starting spot once read is back? I mean, it's not like he's a Highlander and being the team bus driver will get him a start as an AB loosie.


I expect he'll rotate with Taufua for the rest of the season if Read stays fit. But once Read's gone next season, he'll be the Crusaders first choice 8.

Like I said, this year is probably too early for him, but with both Read and L Whitelock leaving next year, we'll need options at 8 and I don't think Douglas would look out of place in Black.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:08 am 
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booji boy wrote:
A bit off the BB topics but it just shows how the transition from the McCaw/ Carter era to the current era hasn't quite settled in the long term incumbents the way we were back in 2007, 11 and 15.

Backrow(debut season)
2007 McCaw (2001), Soialo (2003), Collins (2000)
2011 McCaw (2001), Read (2008), Kaino (2004)
2015 McCaw (2001), Read (2008), Kaino (2004)
2019 Cane (2012), Read (2008), Squire, Frizzel, Fifita, Barrett ???

So in 2007-2015 we had seasoned pros who were locked in incumbents with a world of experience at or near the peak of their powers. Now we have Cane who is very good but has suffered some significant recent injuries and hasn't played in a world cup knockout match. Read who is slightly faded/jaded and also struggling following recent injuries. Clearly past his peak. As for blindside???? WTF would know?

Same with the midfield (although 2007 wasn't great but there was a lot of talent in the wider squad including Aaron Mauger and Smith/Nonu).

2007 McAlister, Mils Muliaina x(
2011 Nonu(2003)/Smith(2004)
2015 Nonu(2003)/Smith(2004)
2019 Crotty, SBW, Laumape, Goodhue, ALB

So from 2008-2015 Nonu/Smith was our locked down incumbent midfield. In 2019 I wouldn't have a clue what our 1st choice midfield is.

Doesn't bode well for me. :?


He came off the bench in all three knockout games last WC (for a combined total of 25 minutes).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:29 am 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
S. Barrett doesn't have the power to be a 6.


Well how the hell does he get selected at lock then?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:58 am 
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Sonny Blount wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
S. Barrett doesn't have the power to be a 6.


Well how the hell does he get selected at lock then?


Exactly. That's one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Power isn't the issue, he's a world class lock ffs. Mobility, speed and ball-running ability are his limiting factors.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:48 am 
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Richie Mounga isn't a big game player tbh


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:00 am 
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Peaches wrote:
Richie Mounga isn't a big game player tbh


He's won 2 x Super Rugby Finals and 3 x Mitre 10 Cup Finals, playing well in all of them. At every level of his career he's thrived in big games.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:03 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
S. Barrett doesn't have the power to be a 6.


Well how the hell does he get selected at lock then?


Exactly. That's one of the dumbest comments I've ever read. Power isn't the issue, he's a world class lock ffs. Mobility, speed and ball-running ability are his limiting factors.

That's power. He's not quick off the mark and agile enough to be decent 6 at international level. Different type of athlete.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:07 am 
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Peaches wrote:
Richie Mounga isn't a big game player tbh


Quote:
Tied up at 30-30 with time up on the clock in front of thousands of desperate screaming South African fans, Richie Mo'unga etched his way into Kiwis' hearts by slotting the winning conversion to cap off one of the best comeback victories you'll see.
It was a moment that'll be remembered by All Blacks fans for years to come, and a glimpse of what Mo'unga can bring to the 10 jersey come crunch time.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:10 am 
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Peaches wrote:
Richie Mounga isn't a big game player tbh


Yeah, last years SUPE final where he only slotted 4 conversions was truly embarrassing.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:33 am 
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DMac did well vs Jags. He's not to be discounted.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 am 
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naki wrote:
It’s been clear for the best part of 18 months now that Mo’unga should be the one, with BB at fullback or the bench. Barrett is arguably the most talented player in the country but is not suited to a tight contest at first-five.

The problem is that Mo’s recent form is not compelling enough to put pressure on his spot, and Barrett has improved enough in his major work-ons (goalkicking, tactical kicking and defence) since last season that Hansen will feel entirely justified in retaining him. Which he was probably going to do regardless of form.

The areas where RM has clear superiority (passing, conducting a backline, temperament) would be crucial for the RWC but he hasn’t done enough to usurp Barrett in his goalkicking or defence. It’s a real shame as I also can’t see us wining it with BB at pivot.


Pretty much agree with your assessment, but would like to see the Mo 10, Ben 14 BB 15 troika given a chance to show its wares.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
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Location: Melbourne
CrazyIslander wrote:
DMac did well vs Jags. He's not to be discounted.


Oh, D-Mac's a fine player.

He's just not a 10's ringpiece.


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