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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:10 pm 
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Spivs ruining our game again. Where will it end?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exclusiv ... quity-firm

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:13 pm 
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I'm not surprised. The common consensus seems to be that rugby's clinging to tradition and amateurism makes it a massively undervalued sport commercially


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:14 pm 
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the game is gone.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:32 pm 
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If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

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A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

Quote:
A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


If I was a PE fund taking over the Pro14 looking to make it more commercially successful the first thing I would do is cull all these stupid overseas expansion teams from Italy and South Africa. How the hell do you go about marketing this mish-mash league to non-rugby audiences? :?

Strip it back to the 10-team Celtic League and aim to build within those three nations - a third Scottish team, a fifth Welsh team etc. At least you give the league a bit of an identity and something a bit easier to market


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:56 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
Bowens wrote:
If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

Quote:
A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


If I was a PE fund taking over the Pro14 looking to make it more commercially successful the first thing I would do is cull all these stupid overseas expansion teams from Italy and South Africa. How the hell do you go about marketing this mish-mash league to non-rugby audiences? :?

Strip it back to the 10-team Celtic League and aim to build within those three nations - a third Scottish team, a fifth Welsh team etc. At least you give the league a bit of an identity and something a bit easier to market

Nah. Make it up to 32 teams 12gp teams 14 pro 14 teams + 6 others (Leeds lirish another Scottish or Italian region, Spanish team, remaining south African super teams etc..open to other suggestions.) Split into 8 conferences and copy NFL structure. Finish with a rugby super mega bowl.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:00 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:02 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc


I don't think the NFL lives or dies by its international revenue.

Premier League is soccer, the most popular sport in the world, not exactly hard to sell worldwide.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:04 pm 
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Btw, I might agree with you more if the Welsh bought into the regions.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:08 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc


I don't think the NFL lives or dies by its international revenue.

Premier League is soccer, the most popular sport in the world, not exactly hard to sell worldwide.


The principle still applies. Both sell a very good product that has a clear identity and is easy to market. Fans from around the world are invested in the rivalries and the clubs, the quality of the games, the competitiveness of the league etc

If the rugby administrators behind Pro14 or Super Rugby had their way with the Premier League then Manchester City would be playing weekly fixtures against the Kampala Rhinos or the Bangkok Ladyboys in the interest of "growing the game"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:13 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc


I don't think the NFL lives or dies by its international revenue.

Premier League is soccer, the most popular sport in the world, not exactly hard to sell worldwide.


The principle still applies. Both sell a very good product that has a clear identity and is easy to market. Fans from around the world are invested in the rivalries and the clubs, the quality of the games, the competitiveness of the league etc

If the rugby administrators behind Pro14 or Super Rugby had their way with the Premier League then Manchester City would be playing weekly fixtures against the Kampala Rhinos or the Bangkok Ladyboys in the interest of "growing the game"


Where do I get tickets?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:17 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc

Hush now. No one needs advice from the people behind RIM.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:21 pm 
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CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:21 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc


I don't think the NFL lives or dies by its international revenue.

Premier League is soccer, the most popular sport in the world, not exactly hard to sell worldwide.


The principle still applies. Both sell a very good product that has a clear identity and is easy to market. Fans from around the world are invested in the rivalries and the clubs, the quality of the games, the competitiveness of the league etc

If the rugby administrators behind Pro14 or Super Rugby had their way with the Premier League then Manchester City would be playing weekly fixtures against the Kampala Rhinos or the Bangkok Ladyboys in the interest of "growing the game"

Yeah, PRL would never plan games in China or the USA. That's just stupid.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:24 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

Quote:
A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


If you're a stronger commercially side relative to others there in the Championship and the Premiership decides to kill pro-rel, that's a pretty straightforward decision to make isn't it for both the club and the league.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:25 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
openclashXX wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


If you sell a compelling product people will buy it. The Premier League doesn't need to have teams in Ghana or South Korea for fans to tune in every week and broadcasters pay over the top for TV rights. The NFL doesn't need to have teams in London or Munich for fans to tune in and follow their product.

Stripping the Pro14 back to its core is ultimately going to make a better product that will be an easier sell, not just to Italians or South Africans but also to Americans, Chinese, Indians etc


I don't think the NFL lives or dies by its international revenue.

Premier League is soccer, the most popular sport in the world, not exactly hard to sell worldwide.


The principle still applies. Both sell a very good product that has a clear identity and is easy to market. Fans from around the world are invested in the rivalries and the clubs, the quality of the games, the competitiveness of the league etc

If the rugby administrators behind Pro14 or Super Rugby had their way with the Premier League then Manchester City would be playing weekly fixtures against the Kampala Rhinos or the Bangkok Ladyboys in the interest of "growing the game"

Yeah, PRL would never plan games in China or the USA. That's just stupid.


Exhibition games are a smart idea. As is recruiting players from lesser countries, selling TV rights overseas, setting up local academies to find talent etc. These are all sensible ways of growing the game internationally

Compromising the product you sell by diluting it through adding progressively shittier and more nonsensical expansion sides in odd corners of the world is not a sensible way to grow the game


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Flyin Ryan wrote:
Bowens wrote:
If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

Quote:
A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


If you're a stronger commercially side relative to others there in the Championship and the Premiership decides to kill pro-rel, that's a pretty straightforward decision to make isn't it for both the club and the league.


'If' being appropriate in this case. Ealing have money but they get 800 odd people in through the gates each week. Pirates, Yorkshire etc would probably be better long term bets, although the latter complicated slightly by having an RFU academy in place


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:28 pm 
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They have no ground and no fans though. Expanding somewhere like Spain and filling the team with Argies would make far more sense.

But these are the people who added a team with a history of mismanagement and average crowds of about 800, so...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:32 pm 
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Leinsterman wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.


If you're only going to get 1% of the market, because it's a niche sport, then it absolutely does matter how big the market is.

Although that's a bit simplistic. Personally, I don't think it can grow much further in Ireland. Wales could buy into the league more, as could Scotland but I think the latter are doing alright in that regard. South Africa is either the biggest or second to England, I can't remember which, in terms of participation so not exactly a market we should be ignoring. Italy is harder to crack but Treviso doing well this season will hopefully help.

Either way, I think it's far easier to sell a product in a country that has some participation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:33 pm 
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Just so I'm clear openclash, South Africa(TRC) and Italy(6N) are odd corners of the world in Rugby terms?

An exhibition matches have largely proved a shit idea that nearly bankrupted the USAR. No one new to the sport gives a flying fuck about "the ancient rivalries" played out by a bunch of mercs who's sole connection to the club is a paycheck?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:35 pm 
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Bowens wrote:
They have no ground and no fans though. Expanding somewhere like Spain and filling the team with Argies would make far more sense.

But these are the people who added a team with a history of mismanagement and average crowds of about 800, so...

As a combined Spanish/Argie union venture maybe.

Apparently we're getting 2 more.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:36 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
Bowens wrote:
If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

Quote:
A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


If I was a PE fund taking over the Pro14 looking to make it more commercially successful the first thing I would do is cull all these stupid overseas expansion teams from Italy and South Africa. How the hell do you go about marketing this mish-mash league to non-rugby audiences? :?

Strip it back to the 10-team Celtic League and aim to build within those three nations - a third Scottish team, a fifth Welsh team etc. At least you give the league a bit of an identity and something a bit easier to market


Correct.

It is bottom feeding. The South Africans and Italians are bad for the competition. Just like Super Rugby does not work anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:37 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
Just so I'm clear openclash, South Africa(TRC) and Italy(6N) are odd corners of the world in Rugby terms?


Nope, you're confusing the football analogy with the rugby one.

Quote:

An exhibition matches have largely proved a shit idea that nearly bankrupted the USAR. No one new to the sport gives a flying fuck about "the ancient rivalries" played out by a bunch of mercs who's sole connection to the club is a paycheck?


Done properly, they're a great idea. Have you seen how successful the NFL exhibition games in London and Mexico City have been?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:38 pm 
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Leinsterman wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.


exactly it’s a classic business fail to start with the size of the potential market and work backwards. It’s almost completely irrelevant to just trot out the population of Italy and SA as potential customers a they’re not. Fully agree - strip it back to a Celtic league of Ireland, Scotland and Wales and build it around fewer games that are of higher quality.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Leinsterman wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.


exactly it’s a classic business fail to start with the size of the potential market and work backwards. It’s almost completely irrelevant to just trot out the population of Italy and SA as potential customers a they’re not. Fully agree - strip it back to a Celtic league of Ireland, Scotland and Wales and build it around fewer games that are of higher quality.


Which is why no extra money came into the competition when either the Italians or particularly the South Africans joined.

Oh wait, that's not right.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Leinsterman wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.


exactly it’s a classic business fail to start with the size of the potential market and work backwards. It’s almost completely irrelevant to just trot out the population of Italy and SA as potential customers a they’re not. Fully agree - strip it back to a Celtic league of Ireland, Scotland and Wales and build it around fewer games that are of higher quality.

THere's only going to be 2 Welsh teams in a few years anyway. THere's more rugby fans in Italy than the entire celtic teams.. They lack the player base though. IMO it made sense to create a pathway to a pro league to encourage that. The union made a balls of investing them and running the teams.

Not going to argue about the SA expansion. Apparently there's 2 more on the way.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:06 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Just so I'm clear openclash, South Africa(TRC) and Italy(6N) are odd corners of the world in Rugby terms?


Nope, you're confusing the football analogy with the rugby one.

Quote:

An exhibition matches have largely proved a shit idea that nearly bankrupted the USAR. No one new to the sport gives a flying fuck about "the ancient rivalries" played out by a bunch of mercs who's sole connection to the club is a paycheck?


Done properly, they're a great idea. Have you seen how successful the NFL exhibition games in London and Mexico City have been?

What was the point of the football anaolgy?

The NFL is about bottom line, growing tv viewers. Apparently there's a long term plan to possibly move a franchise to the UK.

I'm not really sure how you square the circle. It's good to hold exhibition games abroad, maybe set up an academy but setting up a team with an academy and holding games there regularly = bad, no one wants that! Unless all you wanted to do was monopolize the sport.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:07 pm 
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Personally think you'd ideally only expand somewhere where you're going to be the biggest gig in town (for that sport)

So for the Pro 14, Italy is worth sticking with. Can't see SA or potentially England being a long term success.

Edit - freely admit I have very little clue on the financials, which may make a more persuasive case. Just seems to lack focus


Last edited by Margin_Walker on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:07 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
Bowens wrote:
If Southern Kings didn’t set pulses racing, how about...

Quote:
A sixth country could be added, with English Championship club Ealing Trailfinders – currently sitting second on the table with an eye on Premiership promotion – currently examining the possibility of joining the competition.


:blush:


If I was a PE fund taking over the Pro14 looking to make it more commercially successful the first thing I would do is cull all these stupid overseas expansion teams from Italy and South Africa. How the hell do you go about marketing this mish-mash league to non-rugby audiences? :?

Strip it back to the 10-team Celtic League and aim to build within those three nations - a third Scottish team, a fifth Welsh team etc. At least you give the league a bit of an identity and something a bit easier to market


Not sure about a 5th Welsh team. The chat on the Welsh thread is to cut their team quotas from 4 to 2 as they’re struggle to put out 4 competitive sides. The boyos reckon they can just about manage to put out 1 competitive team, i.e. Wales.


Last edited by YOYO on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:08 pm 
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A nothing story. The unions own the competition and they are not going to surrender control of it to private hands.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:11 pm 
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SASP wrote:
Image


He’s holding the annual budget of Zebre.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:13 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously who makes this shit up?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:31 pm 
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YOYO wrote:
Not sure about a 5th Welsh team. The chat on the Welsh thread is to cut their team quotas from 4 to 2 as they’re struggle to put out 4 competitive sides. The boyos reckon they can just about manage to put out 1 competitive team, i.e. Wales.



The reason we struggle to field four or five competitive teams is that we do not have the funding to fill out our squads with quality overseas players. The Welsh squads do not have enough quality players for four competitive teams, they need to bring in foreign players to help. The WRU are totally against this it seems.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:44 pm 
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GWO2 wrote:
YOYO wrote:
Not sure about a 5th Welsh team. The chat on the Welsh thread is to cut their team quotas from 4 to 2 as they’re struggle to put out 4 competitive sides. The boyos reckon they can just about manage to put out 1 competitive team, i.e. Wales.



The reason we struggle to field four or five competitive teams is that we do not have the funding to fill out our squads with quality overseas players. The Welsh squads do not have enough quality players for four competitive teams, they need to bring in foreign players to help. The WRU are totally against this it seems.


You also don’t have enough decent Welsh players to stretch to 4 teams by the looks of things even supplemented by a few foreign players.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:45 pm 
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GWO2 wrote:
YOYO wrote:
Not sure about a 5th Welsh team. The chat on the Welsh thread is to cut their team quotas from 4 to 2 as they’re struggle to put out 4 competitive sides. The boyos reckon they can just about manage to put out 1 competitive team, i.e. Wales.



The reason we struggle to field four or five competitive teams is that we do not have the funding to fill out our squads with quality overseas players. The Welsh squads do not have enough quality players for four competitive teams, they need to bring in foreign players to help. The WRU are totally against this it seems.


Having the likes of Faletau, Roberts, Liam Williams, Priestland, Charteris, Biggar, Webb, Owen Williams, Francis, Young, Adams etc all based outside of the Pro14 doesn't really help Wales either. There must be close to an entire XV of Welsh-capped and decent quality players that aren't based in Wales anymore. Money is clearly becoming an increasingly acute problem but having an inferior quality product to sell is just going to exacerbate things


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:47 pm 
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Leinsterman wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.

Whatever about Italy, not in SA.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:48 pm 
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camroc1 wrote:
Leinsterman wrote:
CM11 wrote:
Combined market without Italians and South Africans is about 15m. With them it's 135m.


Doesn't matter if the "market" is 15m or 1bn. It's a niche sport.

Whatever about Italy, not in SA.


certainly seems like the Pro14 is a niche league in South Africa, it goes

Super Rugby
Currie Cup
Varsity Cup

daylight

Pro14


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:50 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
GWO2 wrote:
YOYO wrote:
Not sure about a 5th Welsh team. The chat on the Welsh thread is to cut their team quotas from 4 to 2 as they’re struggle to put out 4 competitive sides. The boyos reckon they can just about manage to put out 1 competitive team, i.e. Wales.



The reason we struggle to field four or five competitive teams is that we do not have the funding to fill out our squads with quality overseas players. The Welsh squads do not have enough quality players for four competitive teams, they need to bring in foreign players to help. The WRU are totally against this it seems.


Having the likes of Faletau, Roberts, Liam Williams, Priestland, Charteris, Biggar, Webb, Owen Williams, Francis, Young, Adams etc all based outside of the Pro14 doesn't really help Wales either. There must be close to an entire XV of Welsh-capped and decent quality players that aren't based in Wales anymore. Money is clearly becoming an increasingly acute problem but having an inferior quality product to sell is just going to exacerbate things


Yes, if we were able to keep all our best talent in Wales (as Ireland have managed to do), and then supplement that with quality overseas players (as everyone else is able to do), then we would probbaly have the makings of at least 1 to 2 quality teams. However, that all costs money, which is something we don't have.


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