Planet Rugby Forum

Is the 2019 NZ Conference the weakest it's been since the conference system was first embeded back in 2016? Across the board I think all the NZ teams are weaker than they have been in recent years.

There are a number of reasons for this, namely injuries, the relentless NH player drain and NZR's restrictions on All Black participation, which are the most onerous since 2007 when Graham Henry demanded that his best players sat out virtually all of Super Rugby and he ended up taking an arguably undercooked & under-prepared team to the RWC.

All NZ Rugby fans should be concerned about the current lack of depth across our SR squads. The Hurricanes pack is as green as I can remember - they used to be able to field an all-All Black forward pack. The Blues continue to struggle to find quality in key positions and the Highlanders are as weak as they have been since before the Jamie Joseph era. I know the Chiefs have been hit hard by injuries this year, but their team last night was only Mitre 10 Cup quality. And even the table topping Crusaders aren't playing as well as they did in 2017 or 2018.

Overall the lack of quality in the NZ conference is very worrying and I hope it isn't an indication of what's to come at the RWC.

We’ll win the WC so not bothered about current soup form. Loads of injuries but do believe come backend of the soup season NZ teams will be right amongst the finals. Even see my mighty blues participating for a change

Ali's Choice wrote:Is the 2019 NZ Conference the weakest it's been since the conference system was first embeded back in 2016? Across the board I think all the NZ teams are weaker than they have been in recent years.

There are a number of reasons for this, namely injuries, the relentless NH player drain and NZR's restrictions on All Black participation, which are the most onerous since 2007 when Graham Henry demanded that his best players sat out virtually all of Super Rugby and he ended up taking an arguably undercooked & under-prepared team to the RWC.

All NZ Rugby fans should be concerned about the current lack of depth across our SR squads. The Hurricanes pack is as green as I can remember - they used to be able to field an all-All Black forward pack. The Blues continue to struggle to find quality in key positions and the Highlanders are as weak as they have been since before the Jamie Joseph era. I know the Chiefs have been hit hard by injuries this year, but their team last night was only Mitre 10 Cup quality. And even the table topping Crusaders aren't playing as well as they did in 2017 or 2018.

Overall the lack of quality in the NZ conference is very worrying and I hope it isn't an indication of what's to come at the RWC.

Often there have been times the future of NZ rugby hasn't looked rosy but somehow the train keeps chugging along.

Kahu wrote:

Ali's Choice wrote:Is the 2019 NZ Conference the weakest it's been since the conference system was first embeded back in 2016? Across the board I think all the NZ teams are weaker than they have been in recent years.

There are a number of reasons for this, namely injuries, the relentless NH player drain and NZR's restrictions on All Black participation, which are the most onerous since 2007 when Graham Henry demanded that his best players sat out virtually all of Super Rugby and he ended up taking an arguably undercooked & under-prepared team to the RWC.

All NZ Rugby fans should be concerned about the current lack of depth across our SR squads. The Hurricanes pack is as green as I can remember - they used to be able to field an all-All Black forward pack. The Blues continue to struggle to find quality in key positions and the Highlanders are as weak as they have been since before the Jamie Joseph era. I know the Chiefs have been hit hard by injuries this year, but their team last night was only Mitre 10 Cup quality. And even the table topping Crusaders aren't playing as well as they did in 2017 or 2018.

Overall the lack of quality in the NZ conference is very worrying and I hope it isn't an indication of what's to come at the RWC.

What's so funny? The Hurricanes used to regularly be able to field an all-AB pack. That's fact.

Ali's Choice wrote:Is the 2019 NZ Conference the weakest it's been since the conference system was first embeded back in 2016? Across the board I think all the NZ teams are weaker than they have been in recent years.

There are a number of reasons for this, namely injuries, the relentless NH player drain and NZR's restrictions on All Black participation, which are the most onerous since 2007 when Graham Henry demanded that his best players sat out virtually all of Super Rugby and he ended up taking an arguably undercooked & under-prepared team to the RWC.

All NZ Rugby fans should be concerned about the current lack of depth across our SR squads. The Hurricanes pack is as green as I can remember - they used to be able to field an all-All Black forward pack. The Blues continue to struggle to find quality in key positions and the Highlanders are as weak as they have been since before the Jamie Joseph era. I know the Chiefs have been hit hard by injuries this year, but their team last night was only Mitre 10 Cup quality. And even the table topping Crusaders aren't playing as well as they did in 2017 or 2018.

Overall the lack of quality in the NZ conference is very worrying and I hope it isn't an indication of what's to come at the RWC.

As long as most of the Forwards come from the Crusaders, and most of the backs from the Hurricanes, with key players like Ben Smith, Aaron Smith, Brodie Retallick, and so on in the mix, we should be fine. The top level is working as it should, but the second tier has been raped by the NH, and it shows no signs of stopping, with Hemopo, Proctor and the like headed for the big bucks in France!

capt hurricane wrote:As long as most of the Forwards come from the Crusaders, and most of the backs from the Hurricanes, with key players like Ben Smith, Aaron Smith, Brodie Retallick, and so on in the mix, we should be fine.

The Hurricanes won their first title with one nailed on starting AB forward in Dane Coles. The Hurricanes have never been known for having a dominant AB quality forward pack

Ali's Choice wrote:Is the 2019 NZ Conference the weakest it's been since the conference system was first embeded back in 2016? Across the board I think all the NZ teams are weaker than they have been in recent years.

There are a number of reasons for this, namely injuries, the relentless NH player drain and NZR's restrictions on All Black participation, which are the most onerous since 2007 when Graham Henry demanded that his best players sat out virtually all of Super Rugby and he ended up taking an arguably undercooked & under-prepared team to the RWC.

All NZ Rugby fans should be concerned about the current lack of depth across our SR squads. The Hurricanes pack is as green as I can remember - they used to be able to field an all-All Black forward pack. The Blues continue to struggle to find quality in key positions and the Highlanders are as weak as they have been since before the Jamie Joseph era. I know the Chiefs have been hit hard by injuries this year, but their team last night was only Mitre 10 Cup quality. And even the table topping Crusaders aren't playing as well as they did in 2017 or 2018.

Overall the lack of quality in the NZ conference is very worrying and I hope it isn't an indication of what's to come at the RWC.

A very good summary. I watched the Chiefs last night in open-mouthed horror. That team was barely of NPC standard. It is clear we have a chronic shortage of competent coaches and players. The likes of Cooper, Mauger/Hammett and Plumtree are bluffers. None of them should be anywhere near a super rugby team.

For example: what kind of idiot coach would play Brad Weber into the ground but leave an AB halfback on the sidelines or playing club rugby all season? On what planet would Mitchell Brown be considered a lock forward? Why was a mediocre player like Ataata Moeakiola, not even eligible for NZ, recruited for the Chiefs? Why did Cooper start Ta'avao at looosehead and leave him there for most of the game even though he was penalized at damn near very scrum?

And then we had to endure the Hurricanes v Sunwolves...
One of the teams had a brilliant coach...the other team had Plumtree. The Hurricanes are a shambles. They're got this far in 2019 on the brilliance of a couple of players.

NZ rugby has never been weaker in coaching and so lacking in player depth. We have been drained by the NH clubs.

Kahu wrote:The Hurricanes won their first title with one nailed on starting AB forward in Dane Coles. The Hurricanes have never been known for having a dominant AB quality forward pack

I used the term "All Black". Not "nailed on starting AB". The Hurricanes have always had a forward pack that was overflowing with AB's. Up until this year. But they still have a stack of All Black forwards including Ardie Savea, Vaea Fifita, Jeff Toomaga-Allen, Dane Coles, Asafo Aumua and Gareth Evans

Nah. This is how it was most of the times. Two dominating NZ sides, one above average and average or below sides. 2015 was the turning point when the two average/below average sides the previoys year played in the final ($250/1 final combo chance before the start of the tournament.)

What a joke.

Fifita has never established himself in the ABs
JTA one test cap v Japan
Gareth Evans one test cap v Japan
Asafo Aumua is yet to make his test debut.

Even in 06 they had Paul Tito starting and their props were never established ABs. You're reaching with this one.

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kahu wrote:The Hurricanes won their first title with one nailed on starting AB forward in Dane Coles. The Hurricanes have never been known for having a dominant AB quality forward pack

I used the term "All Black". Not "nailed on starting AB". The Hurricanes have always had a forward pack that was overflowing with AB's. Up until this year. But they still have a stack of All Black forwards including Ardie Savea, Vaea Fifita, Jeff Toomaga-Allen, Dane Coles, Asafo Aumua and Gareth Evans

“All Black” doesn’t quite mean what it used to does it?

Kahu wrote:

What a joke.

Fifita has never established himself in the ABs
JTA one test cap v Japan
Gareth Evans one test cap v Japan
Asafo Aumua is yet to make his test debut.

Even in 06 they had Paul Tito starting and their props were never established ABs. You're reaching with this one.

Dude, All Blacks are All Blacks. Devaluing their achievements because they may not have played many tests doesn't change the fact that they will forever be All Black players. JTA and Gareth Evans are just as much "All Blacks" as Richie McCaw, Keven Mealamu or Dan Carter.

Says the guy who claims All Black Brett Cameron isn't All Black standard.

Kahu wrote:Says the guy who claims All Black Brett Cameron isn't All Black standard.

Dumb post. He clearly isn't AB standard. But you'll never catch me trying to suggest that he isn't an All black. He'll forever be an All Black.

When have the Hurricanes ever fielded an all AB forward pack like your OP claims AC?

Don’t fight AC on this. He’s technically right, and he delights in using it to troll other NZ teams (particularly the Hurricanes as we tend to argue our forward pack is weak).

Better to focus on how Mo’unga only looks good in front of a Ferrari backline or something like that.

I don't disagree with his general premise only the bold claim that the Hurricanes have fielded an all AB forward pack. Provide the evidence AC or admit you are a liar to the entire forum.

Kahu wrote:I don't disagree with his general premise only the bold claim that the Hurricanes have fielded an all AB forward pack. Provide the evidence AC or admit you are a liar to the entire forum.

2010

8. Rodney S'oialo
7. Scott Waldrom
6. Victor Vito
5. Jason Eaton
4. Bryn Evans
3. Neemia Tialata
2. Andrew Hore
1. John Schwalger

Please send your apology to;

Mr A Choice
2 MVP Lane
Gofuckyourownface

Victor didn't make his AB debut until after the 2010 Super rugby competition ended. Admit it or edit your posts.

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kahu wrote:I don't disagree with his general premise only the bold claim that the Hurricanes have fielded an all AB forward pack. Provide the evidence AC or admit you are a liar to the entire forum.

2010

8. Rodney S'oialo
7. Scott Waldrom
6. Victor Vito
5. Jason Eaton
4. Bryn Evans
3. Neemia Tialata
2. Andrew Hore
1. John Schwalger

Please send your apology to;

Mr A Choice
2 MVP Lane
Gofuckyourownface

Although how often did that pack actually play? Cooper wasn’t a fan of Evans and barely played him.

Definitely the weakest it’s been in comparison with our original SANZAR partners since formalised conferences were introduced.

NZ teams are currently winning just 64% of their games against Australian and SA opposition this year, compared with 74% last year, 93% in 2017 and 78% in 2016.

They are of course still winning more often than their SANZAR counterparts (38% and 50% for Oz and SA respectively).

They are, however, collectively winning more often than they were pre-conference format. NZ teams only won 58% of their games during the Super 12 era, 56% during Super 14 and 59% during Super 15. Those numbers are of course higher than the opposition, but not as dramatically as during the first few years of the conference system. And there were years when NZ teams underperformed across the board compared with their rivals.

It’s a case of which nation is draining the fastest. There are more NZ-born players overseas than both SA and Australia, but they haven’t coped anywhere near as well as the NZ sides with it up until now. The kiwi sides are finally starting to show the real impact of that drain, a large section of our SR players are really only NPC standard.

It says a lot, though, that the Crusaders are going to win the comp again and even the shithouse Canes are still technically second on the table. We are still less shit than the rest, just.

Wilderbeast wrote:Don’t fight AC on this. He’s technically right, and he delights in using it to troll other NZ teams (particularly the Hurricanes as we tend to argue our forward pack is weak).

Better to focus on how Mo’unga only looks good in front of a Ferrari backline or something like that.

The question of the day really is would Richie Mo'unga make the four other NZ teams better? Weak pack, strong pack, poor pack, Canes pack ... this viewer says yes.

Kahu wrote:Victor didn't make his AB debut until after the 2010 Super rugby competition ended. Admit it or edit your posts.

2007

8. Rodney So'oialo
7. Chris Masoe
6. Jerry Collins
5. Jason Eaton
4. Brad Mika
3. Neemia Tialata
2. Andrew Hore
1. John Schwalger

Hasn't the myth of "weak" Hurricanes forwards been well and truly debunked? It's been exposed as a long-running lie. A myth. A fraud. How many All Blacks do Hurricanes fans want in their pack? And still only one solitary title to show for all their All Blacks!

John Schwalger was not selected in the ABs until after the end of the 2007 Super rugby competition.

JB1981 wrote:

Wilderbeast wrote:Don’t fight AC on this. He’s technically right, and he delights in using it to troll other NZ teams (particularly the Hurricanes as we tend to argue our forward pack is weak).

Better to focus on how Mo’unga only looks good in front of a Ferrari backline or something like that.

The question of the day really is would Richie Mo'unga make the four other NZ teams better? Weak pack, strong pack, poor pack, Canes pack ... this viewer says yes.

Come now JB I wasn’t actually trying to troll anyone!

This is like watching a great tennis match.

Kahu wrote:John Schwalger was not selected in the ABs until after the end of the 2007 Super rugby competition.

That's interesting.

Will you concede that the Hurricanes have generally had world class, test standard packs? And the myth of the 'weak' Hurricanes packs is a lie. A dishonest fraud perpetuated by Hurricanes fans to excuse their team's poor performances and relative lack of success over many, many years?

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kahu wrote:John Schwalger was not selected in the ABs until after the end of the 2007 Super rugby competition.

That's interesting.

Will you concede that the Hurricanes have generally had world class, test standard packs? And the myth of the 'weak' Hurricanes packs is a lie. A dishonest fraud perpetuated by Hurricanes fans to excuse their teams poor perforamances over many, many years?

If you can admit the Crusaders dynasty is built upon being the best Poachers I mean recruiters

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kahu wrote:Victor didn't make his AB debut until after the 2010 Super rugby competition ended. Admit it or edit your posts.

2007

8. Rodney So'oialo
7. Chris Masoe
6. Jerry Collins
5. Jason Eaton
4. Brad Mika
3. Neemia Tialata
2. Andrew Hore
1. John Schwalger

This pack was one of the 2 or 3 best in the competition at this point. From time to time the Hurricanes have had good packs and some exceptional players in the forwards.

Kahu wrote:

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kahu wrote:John Schwalger was not selected in the ABs until after the end of the 2007 Super rugby competition.

That's interesting.

Will you concede that the Hurricanes have generally had world class, test standard packs? And the myth of the 'weak' Hurricanes packs is a lie. A dishonest fraud perpetuated by Hurricanes fans to excuse their teams poor perforamances over many, many years?

If you can admit the Crusaders dynasty is built upon being the best Poachers I mean recruiters

Recruitment is one of the most important aspects of running a professional sports team. I'm happy to admit that the Crusaders have recruited more effectively and more successfully than other, less well-run and less professional franchises. Guilty as charged

tbf to the Crusaders most of their poaches have required further development and improved at the Crusaders with perhaps the exception of Ali Williams and Seta Tamanivalu.

Ali's Choice wrote:

Kahu wrote:Victor didn't make his AB debut until after the 2010 Super rugby competition ended. Admit it or edit your posts.

2007

8. Rodney So'oialo
7. Chris Masoe
6. Jerry Collins
5. Jason Eaton
4. Brad Mika
3. Neemia Tialata
2. Andrew Hore
1. John Schwalger

Same wibble on Schwalger as above. Wasn't an AB till after the 07 Supe season.

UncleFB wrote:This is like watching a great tennis match.

Tehui wrote:

UncleFB wrote:This is like watching a great tennis match.

Spoiler: show

Indubitably.

Waka Nathan wrote:

Ali's Choice wrote:Is the 2019 NZ Conference the weakest it's been since the conference system was first embeded back in 2016? Across the board I think all the NZ teams are weaker than they have been in recent years.

There are a number of reasons for this, namely injuries, the relentless NH player drain and NZR's restrictions on All Black participation, which are the most onerous since 2007 when Graham Henry demanded that his best players sat out virtually all of Super Rugby and he ended up taking an arguably undercooked & under-prepared team to the RWC.

All NZ Rugby fans should be concerned about the current lack of depth across our SR squads. The Hurricanes pack is as green as I can remember - they used to be able to field an all-All Black forward pack. The Blues continue to struggle to find quality in key positions and the Highlanders are as weak as they have been since before the Jamie Joseph era. I know the Chiefs have been hit hard by injuries this year, but their team last night was only Mitre 10 Cup quality. And even the table topping Crusaders aren't playing as well as they did in 2017 or 2018.

Overall the lack of quality in the NZ conference is very worrying and I hope it isn't an indication of what's to come at the RWC.

A very good summary. I watched the Chiefs last night in open-mouthed horror. That team was barely of NPC standard. It is clear we have a chronic shortage of competent coaches and players. The likes of Cooper, Mauger/Hammett and Plumtree are bluffers. None of them should be anywhere near a super rugby team.

For example: what kind of idiot coach would play Brad Weber into the ground but leave an AB halfback on the sidelines or playing club rugby all season? On what planet would Mitchell Brown be considered a lock forward? Why was a mediocre player like Ataata Moeakiola, not even eligible for NZ, recruited for the Chiefs? Why did Cooper start Ta'avao at looosehead and leave him there for most of the game even though he was penalized at damn near very scrum?

And then we had to endure the Hurricanes v Sunwolves...
One of the teams had a brilliant coach...the other team had Plumtree. The Hurricanes are a shambles. They're got this far in 2019 on the brilliance of a couple of players.

NZ rugby has never been weaker in coaching and so lacking in player depth. We have been drained by the NH clubs.

At 1.94 m 110 kg we'll take him like a shot over our #1 lock at 190 m and 107 kg.

Ted. wrote:At 1.94 m 110 kg we'll take him like a shot over our #1 lock at 190 m and 107 kg.

I was really surprised at how short your starting locks were last night. And the Chiefs locks were even shorter, with Talenu Seu being comfortably their tallest starting forward. Makes you wonder why more effort hasn't been expended in signing players like Quentin Strange and Mitchell Dunshea, who are the Crusaders 4th and 5th ranked locks and who are both around the 2m mark.

Ali's Choice wrote:

Ted. wrote:At 1.94 m 110 kg we'll take him like a shot over our #1 lock at 190 m and 107 kg.

I was really surprised at how short your starting locks were last night. And the Chiefs locks were even shorter, with Talenu Seu being comfortably their tallest starting forward. Makes you wonder why more effort hasn't been expended in signing players like Quentin Strange and Mitchell Dunshea, who are the Crusaders 4th and 5th ranked locks and who are both around the 2m mark.

It's been a worry for a while. Obviously Lousi's injury and Fatialofa and utility Thomson leaving has not helped the cause, but this year the recruitment was especially poor given we were pinning our tall timber hopes almost entirely on Lousi. As a consequence, our lineout has gone from one of the better one to a complete shambles, not to mention the lack of oomf at the rucks and mauls - despite "earning" respectable possession numbers, that possession has been too often poor quality, slow ball with the obvious knock-on in the the performance elsewhere.

So yes please, a couple of hard working, no nonsense big buggers would be great.

Time for Scott Barrett to come “home”.