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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:39 am 
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obelixtim wrote:
Waka Nathan wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Does this mean the invincible Boks of old were Ref assisted?

In the immortal words of bent South African referee Gert Bezuidenhout to the 1976 AB touring team: 'Listen boys, you can go to your home, I have to live here'.


I remember one of the 1976 tests where Squid Going was going to have a shot at goal from a penalty. The ball fell over, and Gert refused to let him stand it up and have another attempt. I think this comment came from him after that game.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Ok second thought, the current crop of Saffa refs aren't too bad.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:41 am 
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Hong Kong wrote:
Kiwias wrote:
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Okay. I’ve now seen the incident which has caused this latest kerfuffle and blimey! What an extraordinary call...


If you had been the referee, would you have overruled the TMO's call?

The clip I saw did not show whether the ref had access to the big screen at the ground or had to rely upon the TMO call on the pass.

He was looking at something.

The ball moved forward relative to the halfway line, but so did the passer and Reece caught it well behind where Ennor was. We've been over whether the passer's forward momentum should be factored into whether the pass was forward on various threads and I think we've agreed that it should.

However, if you watch the ball it appears to travel forward relative to the line. That probably created enough doubt in the ref's mind along with the words "clear" and "compelling evidence".


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:43 am 
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Hong Kong wrote:
Kiwias wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Okay. I’ve now seen the incident which has caused this latest kerfuffle and blimey! What an extraordinary call...


If you had been the referee, would you have overruled the TMO's call?

The clip I saw did not show whether the ref had access to the big screen at the ground or had to rely upon the TMO call on the pass.


Irrelevant. Answer the question, don't sit on the fence. I think there was a big screen, but the ref only got one replay. And not in slo mo.

Jonkers "clear evidence of a forward pass" would be difficult to over rule. Would you?


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:45 am 
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IIRC the screen at Newlands isn’t great, but didn’t Jonker start by saying “I am going to show you a forward pass”?


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 11:48 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
IIRC the screen at Newlands isn’t great, but didn’t Jonker start by saying “I am going to show you a forward pass”?


Yup.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Hong Kong wrote:
Kiwias wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Okay. I’ve now seen the incident which has caused this latest kerfuffle and blimey! What an extraordinary call...


If you had been the referee, would you have overruled the TMO's call?

The clip I saw did not show whether the ref had access to the big screen at the ground or had to rely upon the TMO call on the pass.


The referee clearly has the right to call for a replay on the big screen. Berry chose not to. What would you have done?


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:38 pm 
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Kiwias wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Kiwias wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Okay. I’ve now seen the incident which has caused this latest kerfuffle and blimey! What an extraordinary call...


If you had been the referee, would you have overruled the TMO's call?

The clip I saw did not show whether the ref had access to the big screen at the ground or had to rely upon the TMO call on the pass.


The referee clearly has the right to call for a replay on the big screen. Berry chose not to. What would you have done?

On the basis of the clip in the other thread, I’d have politely suggested to the TMO, that I was happy with the ball travelling backwards from the hands and unless there was compelling evidence to the contrary I would have let the try stand and take responsibility for any decision that was later proved incorrect


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Kiwias wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Kiwias wrote:
Hong Kong wrote:
Okay. I’ve now seen the incident which has caused this latest kerfuffle and blimey! What an extraordinary call...


If you had been the referee, would you have overruled the TMO's call?

The clip I saw did not show whether the ref had access to the big screen at the ground or had to rely upon the TMO call on the pass.


The referee clearly has the right to call for a replay on the big screen. Berry chose not to. What would you have done?

I'm sure it would have been on the big screen. The ref was watching but the Newlands "big screen" is ma kak


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:10 am 
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So SANZAAR have come out and admitted that Marius Jonker was wrong. He was either grossly incompetent or crooked.

IMO this intervention by Jonker wasn't just a mistake. It was sinister. It appears as if he deliberately intervened to ensure the outcome he wanted. The sooner SA f**k off to the NH and take their crooked referees with them the better.



Quote:
Super Rugby: Sanzaar confirm TMO Marius Jonker was wrong to deny Crusaders try in Cape Town
ROBERT VAN ROYEN
11:54, May 23 2019

South African match official Marius Jonker will not feature during round 15 of Super Rugby.

The contentious TMO decision which denied the Crusaders victory over the Stormers in Cape Town last Sunday (NZT) was indeed wrong. It does not make it any easier for the Crusaders to swallow, but Sanzaar has confirmed to the franchise that South African Marius Jonker wrongly rubbed out what would have been a superb match-winning try by Sevu Reece.

Jonker, who stepped in and ruled Braydon Ennor's pass to Reece was forward after referee Nic Berry awarded the try, is not working as a match official this weekend.

The Crusaders huddle as TMO Marius Jonker and referee Nic Berry check Braydon Ennor's pass to Sevu Reece in Cape Town last weekend.
"It's a momentum game. Look, they [Sanzaar] just cleared up that the ruling was wrong," Crusaders coach Scott Robertson said of the call late in the 19-19 draw with the Stormers.

"We got clarity of the understanding of the rule, if it's backwards out of the hand, the pass is going backwards. Obviously, momentum is a big part of why it looked forward but it isn't forward.
Advertisement

Referee Nic Berry goes upstairs after TMO Marius Jonker advises him of what he beleived to be a forward pass by Crusader Bradyon Ennor in Cape Town last weekend.
"It would be a pretty tough game of rugby [if you had] to stand still and pass backwards."
Had Reece's 75th minute chip-and-chase try stood, the Crusaders would have led 24-16 (before the conversion attempt) and all but had a bonus point (four tries to one) win in the bag.
Instead, the Stormers earned a penalty from the resulting scrum and launched the raid which led to the match-levelling penalty, kicked after the final hooter.

Jonker, who will be a TMO at the World Cup later this year, had clearly made up his mind before communicating with Berry and putting the pass in question on the big screen at Newlands.
"I'm going to show you a forward pass," he tells Berry.

After a couple of replays - both from the same view - were shown, Jonker said: "So, we have a forward pass, it's clear and obvious evidence of a forward pass."
Sanzaar's definition of a forward pass is as follows: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
As Sanzaar's confirmation to the Crusaders the decision was incorrect confirms, Ennor's hands were going backwards when he fired the pass wide to Reece.
The Crusaders had to settle for two competition points from the match, leaving them nine points clear of the Hurricanes at the top of the New Zealand conference with three games to play.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:25 am 
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I think what he said was “clear and compelling” rather than “clear and obvious”.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:27 am 
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Another proof point of the awful state of the weekend's refereeing in South Africa.

At best, it was seriously egregious. At worst, it suggest some SA referees are crooked and are happy to undermine their own professional reputation to get the best result for a local team.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:39 am 
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jdogscoop wrote:
Another proof point of the awful state of the weekend's refereeing in South Africa.

At best, it was seriously egregious. At worst, it suggest some SA referees are crooked and are happy to undermine their own professional reputation to get the best result for a local team.


This was just a terrible piece of officiating. It cost the Crusaders a BP win - 3 points once you take into account we still secured a draw. We'd have just about tied up top spot if Jonker hadn't erroneously interefered with the match, and interjected when he had absolutely no right to.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:45 am 
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He needs to be dumped from the RWC panel.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:46 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
jdogscoop wrote:
Another proof point of the awful state of the weekend's refereeing in South Africa.

At best, it was seriously egregious. At worst, it suggest some SA referees are crooked and are happy to undermine their own professional reputation to get the best result for a local team.


This was just a terrible piece of officiating. It cost the Crusaders a BP win - 3 points once you take into account we still secured a draw. We'd have just about tied up top spot if Jonker hadn't erroneously interefered with the match, and interjected when he had absolutely no right to.


The Rebels and the Waratahs were both cheated of wins after shockingly one sided penalty counts meaning the Lions grabbed a close win (cost 3 points each) - realistically that may end their finals chances. The Rebels would be top of the Aus conference had the game been reffed fairly.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:50 am 
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I really hope Jonker was just being incompetent. To be fair, he probably was. He wouldn't be the only TMO that's done some ridiculous calls.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:54 am 
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True Blue wrote:
I really hope Jonker was just being incompetent. To be fair, he probably was. He wouldn't be the only TMO that's done some ridiculous calls.


I can handle incorrect calls. But a) this was so obviously incorrect that I struggle to believe that a RWC standard TMO could get it wrong, and b) he deliberately involved himself into the match when he wasn't asked, needed or wanted.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:58 am 
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So you're implying he's corrupt?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:34 am 
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Surely he would pick a better game to sabotage if he was actually corrupt.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:58 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Surely he would pick a better game to sabotage if he was actually corrupt.


They're playing the long game. Needed some controversy to help fuel the post match bad behavior allegations (i.e. that the players might have been upset or annoyed) that can distract our players priors to the world cup [/tinfoil]


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:03 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Surely he would pick a better game to sabotage if he was actually corrupt.


The betting odds would be what decided the chance of interference I'd imagine.

Not saying he did but its not too far fetched.

"clear and compelling" is fairly straight forward. Anyone looking at that pass would call it all good, or borderline safe at the very worst.

It seems a giant leap from what most would call a perfectly fine pass to clear and compelling evidence of a forward pass.

I think most people have the idea that officials or sportspeople in the spotlight are incorruptible, that they can't get away with fixing or doing anything underhanded, I'm not convinced everyone abides there though.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:41 am 
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True Blue wrote:
So you're implying he's corrupt?


I'm not implying anything.

However, South African posters on this forum are the first to say that their country is incredibly corrupt. They've been complaining about corruption since I joined this forum back in 2005. Apparently at all levels of government and the public service, corruption is endemic in South Africa. However I'm sure that lowly paid sports match officials are immune to these temptations.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:12 am 
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Corruption is not corruption when it benefits you, its only corruption when it does the opposite.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:27 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
I think what he said was “clear and compelling” rather than “clear and obvious”.

Yes, that's what I remember. It made it a lot more difficult for Berry to overrule.

Much as it burns my arse to agree with anything AC says, I do think this was a deliberate intervention by a South African match official in favour of the Stormers, and it's not the first one this season.

It's a blight on the game and one weekend off is a slap on the wrist.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:50 am 
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Rinkals wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
I think what he said was “clear and compelling” rather than “clear and obvious”.

Yes, that's what I remember. It made it a lot more difficult for Berry to overrule.

Much as it burns my arse to agree with anything AC says, I do think this was a deliberate intervention by a South African match official in favour of the Stormers, and it's not the first one this season.

It's a blight on the game and one weekend off is a slap on the wrist.


Trolling isn't your best suit. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:29 am 
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naki wrote:
Waka Nathan wrote:
obelixtim wrote:

Wait till the RWC. I hope he doesn't TMO for any of the AB games. Todays effort should disqualify him from the RWC panel. I pity any team who gets him. Someone will suffer at his hands.


It is not just the obviously bent Jonker that is a problem; the gutless ref--Berry--who allowed his decision to be overturned is also a worry.


He was obviously not convinced, then Jonker ramped it up with “clear and compelling evidence”. Must be very difficult for the on-field ref to overrule in a case like that given they have to implicitly trust their assistant’s multiple HD viewing experience.

Unless Berry saw the angle in the gif on the big screen. Nothing could be more clear and compelling.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:31 am 
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Waka Nathan wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Does this mean the invincible Boks of old were Ref assisted?

In the immortal words of bent South African referee Gert Bezuidenhout to the 1976 AB touring team: 'Listen boys, you can go to your home, I have to live here'.

Really?


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:00 pm 
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Aaaaaaaaaah!

The sweet sounds of whimpering Kiwis snivelling about the naughty refs because one of their overrated cheating teams was wronged.

I could listen to that sound all day!


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Spill the Beans wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaah!

The sweet sounds of whimpering Kiwis snivelling about the naughty refs because one of their overrated cheating teams was wronged.

I could listen to that sound all day!


Well bros, you heard the man ...


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Seven posts in seven years and he broke the seal with that one?

yeah... nah. It's the 100 jandals on an electric drill for that...

whokkada whokkada whokkada

whokkadawhokkadawhokkada

whokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkadawhokkada


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:28 am 
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Is it right they got a weeks holiday........should have been a two year stand down, years revision course, cleaning out of betting account, compulsory resit of referees exams.....before being let anywhere near a rugby paddock again. Neutral refs please as used to be.....


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:16 am 
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naki wrote:
Spill the Beans wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaah!

The sweet sounds of whimpering Kiwis snivelling about the naughty refs because one of their overrated cheating teams was wronged.

I could listen to that sound all day!


Well bros, you heard the man ...

Insight and quality assessment clearly aren't his strong suits based on his assessment of this thread. However, against my better judgement I am strangely curious about how the most successful team in Super Rugby is overrated. Sure title numbers alone aren't everything (I'm looking at you, three time champion Blues), but we are talking about the side that has won the last two championships and is topping the table currently. I'm not expecting much, but delving more into this could be interesting.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:26 am 
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Settle guys Jonkers missed one forward pass.
How many Games have been won the other way with a forward pass let go or a clear penalty missed?
My guess is that its a shit load more than 1.

As for the penalty counts yes it needs to be looked at so there is international consistency and it appears some Refs may think a bit like some fans with regard to what is a penalty. But until teams cut out cynical stuff they cant expect to be on the right side of the count every game.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:30 am 
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Crazy Ed wrote:
Settle guys Jonkers missed one forward pass.
How many Games have been won the other way with a forward pass let go or a clear penalty missed?
My guess is that its a shit load more than 1.

As for the penalty counts yes it needs to be looked at so there is international consistency and it appears some Refs may think a bit like some fans with regard to what is a penalty. But until teams cut out cynical stuff they cant expect to be on the right side of the count every game.

Jonker didn't miss a forward pass, he invented one.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:36 am 
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JB1981 wrote:
Crazy Ed wrote:
Settle guys Jonkers missed one forward pass.
How many Games have been won the other way with a forward pass let go or a clear penalty missed?
My guess is that its a shit load more than 1.

As for the penalty counts yes it needs to be looked at so there is international consistency and it appears some Refs may think a bit like some fans with regard to what is a penalty. But until teams cut out cynical stuff they cant expect to be on the right side of the count every game.

Jonker didn't miss a forward pass, he invented one.

:lol: :lol:

'missed'


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:47 am 
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Ok be pedantic. He made an incorrect call that should have been better.
Other Refs have made equally bad calls in the past which have also influenced potential game outcomes.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:55 am 
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Crazy Ed wrote:
Ok be pedantic. He made an incorrect call that should have been better.
Other Refs have made equally bad calls in the past which have also influenced potential game outcomes.


True. Mostly that is in real time though without the benefit of watching the replay.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:59 am 
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Yea like when one of our bent refs (considered to be one of the best at the time) helped the Ozzies beat Scotland. Not one salty tear in the house back then huh? Well except for the Scots but they're all cunts anyways.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:00 am 
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Still waiting on orders for armbands. Quantity and shipping address please and I will reply with quote.

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:38 am 
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What colors do they come in?


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:53 am 
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Crazy Ed wrote:
Ok be pedantic. He made an incorrect call that should have been better.
Other Refs have made equally bad calls in the past which have also influenced potential game outcomes.


He showed a clear lack of understanding of something 'clarified in a video' by WR, with big lines on the field.
This wasn't a 50/50 call, he refused to use the clarifying points used by all referees in these circumstances, which is a reference to the hands and the ball leaving them.
The intervened in a crucial moment in the game and changed the outcome with a bad decision, that is a huge black mark for a ref.

As it's been mentioned, none of these points can be watered down by having to call it in real time, as TMO you have to be more accurate.

Games being influenced in the republic by dodgy TV crews and TMOs ignoring protocols is getting a bit tedious.


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