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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:33 am 
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jdogscoop wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time


Stop deluding yourself. A penalty count of 20-1 is absurd. So is 12-3 against a dominant side.

A few of your referees are crooked. Accept it.

Please give us:

1. the instances where the Lions and Bulls should have been penalised but weren't
2. the instances where the Rebs, Saders and Tahs were penalised but shouldn't have been
3. the instances where penalty advantages were played and the teams played through the advantage

When teams don't listen they must feel


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:13 am 
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:lol: I know South African Rugby fans often have a chip on their shoulder, and think that rest of the Rugby world is out to get them, but they aren't seriously defending Egon Seconds, are they? A 20-1 penalty count in what was otherwise a very even game of Rugby is just insane. It is unprecedented in my experience of viewing Rugby.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:24 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
:lol: I know South African Rugby fans often have a chip on their shoulder, and think that rest of the Rugby world is out to get them, but they aren't seriously defending Egon Seconds, are they? A 20-1 penalty count in what was otherwise a very even game of Rugby is just insane. It is unprecedented in my experience of viewing Rugby.


You're basing your opinion on a number as you probably haven't watched the Lions games against the Rebels or the Tahs, I'm asking for specific instances to back up your opinion. As well as instances in the Bulls Saders game


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:26 am 
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Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
:lol: I know South African Rugby fans often have a chip on their shoulder, and think that rest of the Rugby world is out to get them, but they aren't seriously defending Egon Seconds, are they? A 20-1 penalty count in what was otherwise a very even game of Rugby is just insane. It is unprecedented in my experience of viewing Rugby.


You're basing your opinion on a number as you probably haven't watched the Lions games against the Rebels or the Tahs, I'm asking for specific instances to back up your opinion. As well as instances in the Bulls Saders game


:lol: I'll do it, if you pay me two grand for my time. That's a lot of work.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:51 am 
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jdogscoop wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
:lol: I know South African Rugby fans often have a chip on their shoulder, and think that rest of the Rugby world is out to get them, but they aren't seriously defending Egon Seconds, are they? A 20-1 penalty count in what was otherwise a very even game of Rugby is just insane. It is unprecedented in my experience of viewing Rugby.


You're basing your opinion on a number as you probably haven't watched the Lions games against the Rebels or the Tahs, I'm asking for specific instances to back up your opinion. As well as instances in the Bulls Saders game


:lol: I'll do it, if you pay me two grand for my time. That's a lot of work.

Then you must stick to your biased opinion and I will continue to discount it :)


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:15 am 
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Jensrsa wrote:
jdogscoop wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
Ali's Choice wrote:
:lol: I know South African Rugby fans often have a chip on their shoulder, and think that rest of the Rugby world is out to get them, but they aren't seriously defending Egon Seconds, are they? A 20-1 penalty count in what was otherwise a very even game of Rugby is just insane. It is unprecedented in my experience of viewing Rugby.


You're basing your opinion on a number as you probably haven't watched the Lions games against the Rebels or the Tahs, I'm asking for specific instances to back up your opinion. As well as instances in the Bulls Saders game


:lol: I'll do it, if you pay me two grand for my time. That's a lot of work.

Then you must stick to your biased opinion and I will continue to discount it :)


The ghost of Louis Luyt has possessed you


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:33 am 
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Imagine the fun the SA refs will have once they get to ref the Canes, now even worse offenders than the Saders and the Rebels :shock: :lol: :0


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:01 am 
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Jensrsa wrote:
Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time


Murder by statistics 8) :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:21 am 
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Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:30 am 
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brat wrote:
Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up


Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.

https://youtu.be/box08lq9ylg


Last edited by Jensrsa on Sun May 12, 2019 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:41 am 
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I find it amusing that kiwis whinge about refs , seeing as to me they are often the teams that cheat the most , especially on:
Offside line
Lazy running back & getting in the way
Ahead of the kicker / not retreating
Not rolling away


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:46 am 
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backrow wrote:
I find it amusing that kiwis whinge about refs , seeing as to me they are often the teams that cheat the most , especially on:
Offside line
Lazy running back & getting in the way
Ahead of the kicker / not retreating
Not rolling away

That would be NH teams by a country mile.

We're also good at giving away cynical penalties in our 22.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:47 am 
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Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:
Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up


Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.


His hands in the release were towards the goal line -clear foward pass


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:49 am 
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brat wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:
Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up


Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.


His hands in the release were towards the goal line -clear foward pass

Not really

Image

I don't have access to close-up shots of the sequence. But should have gone to the TMO


Last edited by Jensrsa on Sun May 12, 2019 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:50 am 
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backrow wrote:
I find it amusing that kiwis whinge about refs , seeing as to me they are often the teams that cheat the most , especially on:
Offside line
Lazy running back & getting in the way
Ahead of the kicker / not retreating
Not rolling away


Umm- not rolling away, slowing the game down, offside/ rush defence - all perfected by your lot unfortunately at international level

Blight on the game


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 10:53 am 
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Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
brat wrote:
Taking the penalty count out of the equation that foward pass leading to the lions try was one of the worst foward passes missed I’ve ever seen -crazy that it wasn’t picked up


Forward velocity with the passer stopped in a tackle as he passes always looks like a forward pass. Was a good decision by Seconds but he should have sent it to the TMO.


His hands in the release were towards the goal line -clear foward pass

Not really

Image

I don't have access to a close-up shot. But should have gone to the TMO


Yes really - watched it a few times on slow mo -definitely hands facing the wrong way -agree should’ve gone to the tmo


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:04 am 
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brat wrote:
backrow wrote:
I find it amusing that kiwis whinge about refs , seeing as to me they are often the teams that cheat the most , especially on:
Offside line
Lazy running back & getting in the way
Ahead of the kicker / not retreating
Not rolling away
Umm- not rolling away, slowing the game down, offside/ rush defence - all perfected by your lot unfortunately at international level

Blight on the game
Well at the end of the day NZ does have a spiritual responsibility to lead the discussion about referring standards.

Despite consistently being on the receiving end of some statistically unusual penalty counts and idiosyncratic decisions they have the requisite mental strength and are consistently able to rise above such disadvantages. Not everyone is that strong, or has the quality of play and players, so NZ needs to stand up for those unable to overcome these imbalances and, most importantly, provide moral support to officials who obviously feel too unsafe in their own countries to be evenhanded.

I applaud AC’s leadership on this issue.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:45 am 
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Lemoentjie wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
Rebs and Saders, the two most penalised sides in SR (#2 in penalties conceded and #2 and #4 in yellow cards), complain that they are penalised :lol:

The Saders captain and assistant coach even went so far as to complain that the Lions and Bulls milk penalties by not scrumming the same way every time


Murder by statistics 8) :thumbup:


Funny you should mention statistics. I think naki might have posted some interesting ones on the previous page.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:49 am 
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backrow wrote:
I find it amusing that kiwis whinge about refs , seeing as to me they are often the teams that cheat the most , especially on:
Offside line
Lazy running back & getting in the way
Ahead of the kicker / not retreating
Not rolling away


You didn't think years of complaining about the ABs, supposedly getting away with everything under the sun, refs being "afraid " to ping then etc, and coming up with amusing names such as Mcheat and the All Cheats gave you some kind if copyright did you?


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Was it Rasta who decided to ignore just about every WR protocol going and just penalise a Bulls player for a swinging arm tackle with force to the head of a Crusaders player?

Yes he was slipping but absolutely no care taken by the tackler......and the outcome......a penalty.

I guess he has to live there :(


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 12:19 pm 
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My word, that’s hilarious. :lol:

https://twitter.com/foxrugby/status/112 ... 49472?s=21

My favourite is where he actually clears out the Tahs player.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 12:29 pm 
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backrow wrote:
I find it amusing that kiwis whinge about refs , seeing as to me they are often the teams that cheat the most , especially on:
Offside line
Lazy running back & getting in the way
Ahead of the kicker / not retreating
Not rolling away


:lol: Faaaark me the cheek of this queen.

England live in the opposition backline.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:
Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.


Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.



The saffer telecast is the worst coverage by some margin.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 12:40 pm 
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When it comes to referees, South Africans are hypocrites. They ended Bryce Lawrence's refereeing career, threatening to brutally kill him and his young family, because he officiated a RWC Quarter Final which they lost, back in 2011. Hundreds of thousands of South Africans joined Facebook 'hate sites' created solely to attack Bryce Lawrence and hound him from the game. Yet when their own referees guide local teams to victory week in, week out with 20-1 penalty counts against visiting teams, they circle the wagons and defend the indefensible.

I want you to think about this hypothetical situation. Imagine a South African Super Rugby team lost a final, in NZ, with a NZ referee officiating a 20-1 penalty count? Imagine the outcry? The howls of indignations?

Imagine the Springboks lost a RWC final off the back of a 20-1 penalty count? Even with a neutral referee, South African fans would revolt. Their heads would literally explode.

Anyway, South Africans have shown that they cannot be trusted to referee their own teams, and SANZAAR needs to stop this farce immediately.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:
Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.


Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.

The perception of a forward pass is actually exaggerated when the ball carrier/passer is stopped as he passes the ball or just after as the receiver is still running and now might receive the ball when in front of the passer.

Marx is about 1.5m behind Lewies when he passes

Image

Marx receives the ball almost in line with where Lewies is falling in the tackle

Image

If, and that's a big if, the ball was passed forward it was marginal.

Still, it should have been referred to the TMO


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
When it comes to referees, South Africans are hypocrites. They ended Bryce Lawrence's refereeing career, threatening to brutally kill him and his young family, because he officiated a RWC Quarter Final which they lost, back in 2011. Hundreds of thousands of South Africans joined Facebook 'hate sites' created solely to attack Bryce Lawrence and hound him from the game. Yet when their own referees guide local teams to victory week in, week out with 20-1 penalty counts against visiting teams, they circle the wagons and defend the indefensible.

I want you to think about this hypothetical situation. Imagine a South African Super Rugby team lost a final, in NZ, with a NZ referee officiating a 20-1 penalty count? Imagine the outcry? The howls of indignations?

Imagine the Springboks lost a RWC final off the back of a 20-1 penalty count? Even with a neutral referee, South African fans would revolt. Their heads would literally explode.

Anyway, South Africans have shown that they cannot be trusted to referee their own teams, and SANZAAR needs to stop this farce immediately.

Nonsense hypothesis as the Saffer teams don't concede as many penalties as most of the Kiwi and Aussie teams :)


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Jensrsa wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:
Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.


Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.

The perception of a forward pass is actually exaggerated when the ball carrier/passer is stopped as he passes the ball or just after as the receiver is still running and now might receive the ball when in front of the passer.

Marx is about 1.5m behind Lewies when he passes

Image

Marx receives the ball almost in line with where Lewies is falling in the tackle

Image

If, and that's a big if, the ball was passed forward it was marginal.

Still, it should have been referred to the TMO


Can you see the line painted on the field there?


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Yourmother wrote:
My word, that’s hilarious. :lol:

https://twitter.com/foxrugby/status/112 ... 49472?s=21

My favourite is where he actually clears out the Tahs player.

Should Hanigan be in trouble for that shove? IIRC Ben Tameifuna got done for similar.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
I don't blame the South African referees. The fault lies with SANZAAR. They got rid of neutral referees years ago because of cost, but in the process they have completely devalued the competition. Why would any Kiwi or Aussie Rugby fan stay up till 3am to watch their team cop a 20-1 penalty count in South Africa delivered by a local referee?


All I know is most rugby fans stay up late hoping for even penalty scores. That's what really gets the juices flowing in this game we love!


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:24 pm 
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^^^
:lol:

koroke hangareka wrote:
Spoiler: show
Jensrsa wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:
Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.


Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.

The perception of a forward pass is actually exaggerated when the ball carrier/passer is stopped as he passes the ball or just after as the receiver is still running and now might receive the ball when in front of the passer.

Marx is about 1.5m behind Lewies when he passes

Image

Marx receives the ball almost in line with where Lewies is falling in the tackle

Image

If, and that's a big if, the ball was passed forward it was marginal.

Still, it should have been referred to the TMO


Can you see the line painted on the field there?

The fact that the ball went forward is irrelevant


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:40 pm 
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Jensrsa wrote:
^^^
:lol:

koroke hangareka wrote:
Spoiler: show
Jensrsa wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:
Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.


Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.

The perception of a forward pass is actually exaggerated when the ball carrier/passer is stopped as he passes the ball or just after as the receiver is still running and now might receive the ball when in front of the passer.

Marx is about 1.5m behind Lewies when he passes

Image

Marx receives the ball almost in line with where Lewies is falling in the tackle

Image

If, and that's a big if, the ball was passed forward it was marginal.

Still, it should have been referred to the TMO


Can you see the line painted on the field there?

The fact that the ball went forward is irrelevant


So why did you mention where Marx receives the ball?


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Yourmother wrote:
My word, that’s hilarious. :lol:

https://twitter.com/foxrugby/status/112 ... 49472?s=21

My favourite is where he actually clears out the Tahs player.

No matter what your views are on a ref, there is no justification for manhandling him.

As for Bryce, he was simply awful in that game. Some terrible decisions and Lordy knows what he was thinking.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:12 pm 
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Ben O'Keefe and his 10-1 penalty count in the second half say hello... :P


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:23 pm 
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Kiwi teams should stop 'playing on the edge' if they want to concede fewer penalties

It appears that some posters have an agenda against South Africa. And the criticism of Bryce is justified, he was awful.

It's a good job that death threats have never been sent to a referee following an NZ RWC quarter-final lost, because then the Kiwi criticism could be seen as being slightly hypocritical :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:23 pm 
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koroke hangareka wrote:
Jensrsa wrote:
^^^
:lol:

koroke hangareka wrote:

Can you see the line painted on the field there?

The fact that the ball went forward is irrelevant


So why did you mention where Marx receives the ball?

Simple logic really. Marx was 1.5m behind Lewies when Lewies passed and Marx caught the ball comfortably in front of him. If Lewies had passed the ball further back the ball would have gone behind Marx.

That's how passes work when players are running.

Ergo, no forward pass


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Puma wrote:
Ben O'Keefe and his 10-1 penalty count in the second half say hello... :P



I wondered what that count was - and some of the decisions were very very baffling :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:54 pm 
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Jensrsa wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
Lacrobat wrote:
Setting aside the penalty count for a minute, the passage of play leading to the Lions try against the Waratahs at the start of the 2nd half included one the most blatant forward passes this decade, if not millennium.


Just saw that in the weekend highlights. Pretty obvious. Pushed well forward with no momentum argument going for it.

I wonder if it would have ended up being replayed in the big screen a few times if it was the other way around to get the crowd going? Interestingly, on the highest package, which has presumably been provided by the South African broadcaster, they change camera angles right in the middle of the pass. Hmmmmmm.

The perception of a forward pass is actually exaggerated when the ball carrier/passer is stopped as he passes the ball or just after as the receiver is still running and now might receive the ball when in front of the passer.

Marx is about 1.5m behind Lewies when he passes

Image

Marx receives the ball almost in line with where Lewies is falling in the tackle

Image

If, and that's a big if, the ball was passed forward it was marginal.

Still, it should have been referred to the TMO


While I totally agree that the perception of a forward pass is actually exaggerated when the ball carrier/passer is stopped as he passes the ball, that isn't what the clip or your pictures show. His hands are pushing the ball forward. There is never any backward motion so the momentum argument is mute, and the ball is received well ahead of where he threw it from, which isn't the same place as where he lands.

There is no IF the pass was forward.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:56 pm 
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Lemoentjie wrote:
It's a good job that death threats have never been sent to a referee following an NZ RWC quarter-final lost, because then the Kiwi criticism could be seen as being slightly hypocritical :thumbup:


Death threats on social media barely count. We all probably have death threats sitting in our DM's right now.

But Barnes could comfortably return to NZ and ref here later with no fear of consequence. Bryce Lawrence was advised to never visit the Republic again and was drummed out of the game (and if anything he favoured the Boks in that QF, with their porpoise-like approach to the breakdown).

This isn't about criticism of officials. Everyone from everywhere indulges in that from time to time. This is about the clear anomaly of SA refs officiating SA teams.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:05 pm 
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Lemoentjie wrote:

It's a good job that death threats have never been sent to a referee following an NZ RWC quarter-final lost, because then the Kiwi criticism could be seen as being slightly hypocritical :thumbup:


Ah yes, the "reports" of a death threats. That even if true may have been one or two angry individuals in the heat of the moment, or taken out of context, who was never heard of again, means that no kiwi can ever criticize a ref.

I remember the same argument being used about Kiwis who criticized the fact that someone in South Africa took the time to set up a Facebook page for the ongoing harassment of a ref, which was joined by 1000's of people there.


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PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Saffas circling the wagons trying to pretend a 20-1 penalty count is normal. :lol:


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