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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:19 pm 
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It's sad really. That's a very poorly painted picture. Truly. Good enough for a hobbyist or a reasonably talented school-leaver. A legitimately hilarious mess by the standards of any professional. Incalculable heaps of cash swishing round Epstein's pockets; a society chick like Maxwell who had spent her life in and out of houses where there was top notch clutter on the walls; and he opts for fourth rate tat. Speaks volumes.

On the other hand, I see the artist was at one point - sigh - on the books with Saatchi. That was probably enough for him. That, and the in-joke of having Bill in a compromising situation. Again.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:28 am 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
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It's sad really. That's a very poorly painted picture. Truly. Good enough for a hobbyist or a reasonably talented school-leaver. A legitimately hilarious mess by the standards of any professional. Incalculable heaps of cash swishing round Epstein's pockets; a society chick like Maxwell who had spent her life in and out of houses where there was top notch clutter on the walls; and he opts for fourth rate tat. Speaks volumes.

On the other hand, I see the artist was at one point - sigh - on the books with Saatchi. That was probably enough for him. That, and the in-joke of having Bill in a compromising situation. Again.

Maybe now is a good time to dust off those old hackneyed conspiracies again.
Pizzagate, Seth Rich...anyone?
:D


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:43 am 
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merry! wrote:
apparently Maxwell's been located..

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-14/epsteins-madam-found-ghislaine-maxwell-living-tech-ceo-3m-mansion-near-boston


top comment so far..

Quote:
We're all very sorry and surprised about her upcoming suicide....


:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 am 
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Bokkom wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
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It's sad really. That's a very poorly painted picture. Truly. Good enough for a hobbyist or a reasonably talented school-leaver. A legitimately hilarious mess by the standards of any professional. Incalculable heaps of cash swishing round Epstein's pockets; a society chick like Maxwell who had spent her life in and out of houses where there was top notch clutter on the walls; and he opts for fourth rate tat. Speaks volumes.

On the other hand, I see the artist was at one point - sigh - on the books with Saatchi. That was probably enough for him. That, and the in-joke of having Bill in a compromising situation. Again.

Maybe now is a good time to dust off those old hackneyed conspiracies again.
Pizzagate, Seth Rich...anyone?
:D


There's no doubt that whatever they get up to behind closed doors, from what we've all seen, that entire crowd - the Podestas above all - have somehow managed to acquire the most abysmal art collections in living memory. Perhaps in all of human history. Expensive, of course. Good street cred within a very narrow set too. But you'll find better stuff behind the reception desk of a deserted caravan park in Skegness.

The Podesta need for pictures of children in various states of unnerving dislocation or borderline abuse is truly baffling. There's nothing affirming about plastering your house with stuff of that nature. No difficulty whatsoever in seeing how so many people - after a look at the pics - decided there was something extremely sinister about these guys.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:37 am 
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The dodgy paedo art wasn't just in his private collection but publically displayed in a supposedly family restaurant. No gets a WTF moment seeing that kind of stuff?

This is just the DC equivalent of Jimmy Saville and co. Goes across all political sides, involves high profile people and much worse than can be imagined.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:48 am 
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you'll find better stuff behind the reception desk of a deserted caravan park in Skegness.


:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:23 am 
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I read that the autopsy underlined neck injuries more common to homicide cases than suicide ones.
Interesting


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:24 am 
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Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:31 am 
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AlanBengio wrote:
I read that the autopsy underlined neck injuries more common to homicide cases than suicide ones.
Interesting


Yes. A number of reputable outlets are reporting that he had several broken bones in his neck. Apparently, although these injuries don't rule out death by hanging, they are more consistent with strangulation.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:54 am 
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Jesus HT, that is some weird shite. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:56 am 
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Sandstorm wrote:
Jesus HT, that is some weird shite. :uhoh:


A cross between Pans Labyrinth and the works of H. R. Giger


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Sandstorm wrote:
Jesus HT, that is some weird shite. :uhoh:


Yep. It really is, isn't it.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:02 pm 
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danny_fitz wrote:
Sandstorm wrote:
Jesus HT, that is some weird shite. :uhoh:


A cross between Pans Labyrinth and the works of H. R. Giger


Yes. As you scroll through her portfolio, you do start expecting to see a silicone David Bowie with six tits and an anus on his head to suddenly hove into view with a toddler in hand.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:41 pm 
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Prince Andrew announced his retirement today from public life after a long period of severe personal stress.
In a statement, his Royal Highness added he is ‘following advice’ from his doctor.
There was no comment from #buckinghampalace

@BBCScotlandNews BBC-NEWS


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:50 pm 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


The Podestas are certified weirdos. Along with their right hand man David Brock.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:34 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
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Prince Andrew announced his retirement today from public life after a long period of severe personal stress.
In a statement, his Royal Highness added he is ‘following advice’ from his doctor.
There was no comment from #buckinghampalace

@BBCScotlandNews BBC-NEWS


:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:48 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
paddyor wrote:
Quote:
Prince Andrew announced his retirement today from public life after a long period of severe personal stress.
In a statement, his Royal Highness added he is ‘following advice’ from his doctor.
There was no comment from #buckinghampalace

@BBCScotlandNews BBC-NEWS


:lol:


Randy Andy looking for a rock to hide under...must be some incoming.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:02 pm 
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must be bad, he's done a runner with Fergie..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7359313/Panicked-Prince-Andrew-ex-wife-Fergie-fly-Malaga-private-jet-holiday.html


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:06 pm 
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His Royal Highness.
By Jupiter, in this day and age, do we really need that sort of shit?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:07 pm 
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Bokkom wrote:
His Royal Highness.
By Jupiter, in this day and age, do we really need that sort of shit?


Not much different than "Right Honorable" to be fair.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:41 pm 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
It did occur to me that there is a straightforward explanation for Epstein coming off suicide watch: he wasn't at all suicidal. The psychologists, the medical professionals, the prison management, and Epstein's lawyers all believed he wasn't a risk because he wasn't.

This is not a strong argument. Other than being perfectly circular it ignores the obvious suicide risk. A man who had everything now ruined, universally reviled, facing life in prison as a child sex trafficker.
Quote:
...we now hear his legal team were working on what could have been a perfectly serviceable defence - double jeopardy - I really can't see what incentive he had to call time on everything without first sticking around to see if it worked out...

My 10 second Wiki refresher says double jeopardy 'prevents an accused being tried again on the same charges and on the same facts, following a valid acquittal or conviction.' Surely the known facts and charges are quite different and Epstein knew he would die in prison either sooner or later.

Fishoodie had it right earlier for mine.
Quote:
Occams razor says yes [committed suicide].

1) Didn't he have enough reason to do so ?
2) Hadn't he already demonstrated a desire, & an ability to do so ?
3) If his prior, failed, attempt wasn't authentic; why didn't his Lawyers scream bloody murder & get him moved ??
...and most importantly
4) If you really wanted to murder someone; would you pick a Federal facility, where you have to pass thru a dozen levels of security, & are background checked before being admitted, & are under CC surveillance every step of the way ?

He'd dodged the bullet before, thru his influence, & now it must have been obvious to him that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison, & in, 'special units'. He was fucked, & he he knew damn well he was.

All of this remains true. So far as an obvious suicide risk being 'allowed' to hang himself, I'm reminded of the adage, 'never attribute to malice which can be explained by incompetence'.

Remove all unnecessary assumptions and he most likely killed himself, but you wouldn't rule much out. It's got everything. Conspiracy gold. One minute you're ridiculing QAnon for certifiable theories of international pedophile rings among the global elite, and the next...

Irresistible.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:52 pm 
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I see one of the chapo lads has gone off the deepend with his theory. Maddest and at least believable one I’ve heard is it was all a shake down to see what he knew and then when they were satisfied they compelled him to kill him self and set it up so he’d be able to.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:54 pm 
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Not that the Clintons had anything to do with this, they obviously could not and did not, but it was fascinating seeing the photo of Maxwell’s daughter at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding. It was an incredible gathering of the lizard people in fact. Mossad couldn’t bug the Oval Office but they had Monica Lewinsky’s apartment bugged and tried to use that to leverage Clinton. Now it turns out that Ghislaine Maxwell is/was almost certainly a Mossad agent...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:56 pm 
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Bokkom wrote:
His Royal Highness.
By Jupiter, in this day and age, do we really need that sort of shit?


Somewhat less archaic than Jupiter


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Not that the Clintons had anything to do with this, they obviously could not and did not, but it was fascinating seeing the photo of Maxwell’s daughter at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding. It was an incredible gathering of the lizard people in fact. Mossad couldn’t bug the Oval Office but they had Monica Lewinsky’s apartment bugged and tried to use that to leverage Clinton. Now it turns out that Ghislaine Maxwell is/was almost certainly a Mossad agent...


Fair game in spying. Know the people in power, know the people that surround the people in power.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:23 pm 
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Duff Paddy wrote:
Not that the Clintons had anything to do with this, they obviously could not and did not, but it was fascinating seeing the photo of Maxwell’s daughter at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding. It was an incredible gathering of the lizard people in fact. Mossad couldn’t bug the Oval Office but they had Monica Lewinsky’s apartment bugged and tried to use that to leverage Clinton. Now it turns out that Ghislaine Maxwell is/was almost certainly a Mossad agent...


Lewinsky was probably a Mossad honey trap in hindsight.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:27 pm 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


Great name for a great artist. I love her collaborations with sculptor Stacy Kneegrow.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:31 pm 
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paddyor wrote:
Quote:
Prince Andrew announced his retirement today from public life after a long period of severe personal stress.
In a statement, his Royal Highness added he is ‘following advice’ from his doctor.
There was no comment from #buckinghampalace

@BBCScotlandNews BBC-NEWS


Can’t find this on the BBC anywhere, usually this sort of stuff is top billing.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Santa wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


Great name for a great artist. I love her collaborations with sculptor Stacy Kneegrow.


I believe you are thinking of Precious Wadermelinsmiles.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:55 pm 
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It is not a conspiracy - but it is right to have doubts and have the right answers.
Too many coincidences and his lawyers were still working on a possible way to get him out of prison (not ruled out yet).
I spouse the lieutenant Columbus thinking in principle - that too many coincidences are suspicious, and you should question all these coincidence before ruling out the worst case scenario


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:40 pm 
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Waratah wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
It did occur to me that there is a straightforward explanation for Epstein coming off suicide watch: he wasn't at all suicidal. The psychologists, the medical professionals, the prison management, and Epstein's lawyers all believed he wasn't a risk because he wasn't.

This is not a strong argument. Other than being perfectly circular it ignores the obvious suicide risk. A man who had everything now ruined, universally reviled, facing life in prison as a child sex trafficker.
Quote:
...we now hear his legal team were working on what could have been a perfectly serviceable defence - double jeopardy - I really can't see what incentive he had to call time on everything without first sticking around to see if it worked out...

My 10 second Wiki refresher says double jeopardy 'prevents an accused being tried again on the same charges and on the same facts, following a valid acquittal or conviction.' Surely the known facts and charges are quite different and Epstein knew he would die in prison either sooner or later.

Fishoodie had it right earlier for mine.
Quote:
Occams razor says yes [committed suicide].

1) Didn't he have enough reason to do so ?
2) Hadn't he already demonstrated a desire, & an ability to do so ?
3) If his prior, failed, attempt wasn't authentic; why didn't his Lawyers scream bloody murder & get him moved ??
...and most importantly
4) If you really wanted to murder someone; would you pick a Federal facility, where you have to pass thru a dozen levels of security, & are background checked before being admitted, & are under CC surveillance every step of the way ?

He'd dodged the bullet before, thru his influence, & now it must have been obvious to him that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison, & in, 'special units'. He was fucked, & he he knew damn well he was.

All of this remains true. So far as an obvious suicide risk being 'allowed' to hang himself, I'm reminded of the adage, 'never attribute to malice which can be explained by incompetence'.

Remove all unnecessary assumptions and he most likely killed himself, but you wouldn't rule much out. It's got everything. Conspiracy gold. One minute you're ridiculing QAnon for certifiable theories of international pedophile rings among the global elite, and the next...

Irresistible.


Couple of points. More along the lines of Devil's advocate than rebuttal, seeing as we're all grasping at shadows here.

1 - His reputation was ruined and his name reviled since the mid 2000s when he was charged in Florida. The Lolita Express was a pretty hideous byword for the man that everyone - including all of us - had heard of. This was a situation he had been living with for over a decade, without any attempts at suicide. This was a man who had no problem living under a cloud, as long as he was left at liberty to get on with his life.

2 - He had no idea what kind of sentence he was going to receive, or even if he would get one at all. We've all seen trials like OJ's. Justice is relatively straightforward to buy in the US provided you have the pockets, which he did. A coterie of top end lawyers and anything's possible. It's also the case that the kerfuffle he had in Florida had been significantly diminished by whatever sort of bargain he managed to strike there. There's no reason to suppose he wouldn't attempt the same MO a second time. In short, on the surface, he had everything to play for. If he was going to top himself, it would make far more sense for it to happen after a conviction and sentence, not before. Not unless you're one of life's natural pessimists. Everything we know of the man points in the opposite direction.

3 - On the issue of double-jeopardy. Whether we think it might fly or not as a defence, there's no doubt that's where his lawyers were going. And, notwithstanding your accurate reading of the definitions, I doubt they were second raters granted to him by the state who decided to take a punt on a fanciful longshot. They were almost certainly top performers with a realistic strategy.

4 - I get where Fishoodie is coming from. But a) we actually don't know yet that he tried to kill himself before. There are plenty of rumours that he was instead attacked. Neither has received official corroboration yet. b) His lawyers - people we're told he was spending up to 12 hours a day with - were amongst those advocating he not be subject to the intrusiveness of a suicide watch. And c) whilst no one would choose to off a problem personality in a federal prison when they could do so much more easily outside, it may well be the case that no one expected him to end up there in such short order, and in circumstances that looked so potentially permanent. The fact that he did - as he stepped off a plane - would, one imagines, have placed a rather large cat amongst the pigeons. If there actually were people worried that he might be able to incriminate them, it instantly became incumbent on them to get to him before he walked into a courtroom, irrespective of where he was being held.

5 - Finally, the principle of Occam's Razor cuts both ways. With so many coincidences and peculiarities surrounding events that night in the prison and in the time leading up to it, it's not over the top to ask the question: at what point do we entertain the idea that all these chance accidents of happenstance were perhaps not so coincidental. This is not at all unreasonable. In fact, it would be, I'd imagine, the starting point for anyone who was given the task of getting to the bottom of the affair.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Santa wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


Great name for a great artist. I love her collaborations with sculptor Stacy Kneegrow.


Hard to think of a more appropriate one, isn't it. I wonder did she choose it as her artistic nom de plume.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:31 pm 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Waratah wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
It did occur to me that there is a straightforward explanation for Epstein coming off suicide watch: he wasn't at all suicidal. The psychologists, the medical professionals, the prison management, and Epstein's lawyers all believed he wasn't a risk because he wasn't.

This is not a strong argument. Other than being perfectly circular it ignores the obvious suicide risk. A man who had everything now ruined, universally reviled, facing life in prison as a child sex trafficker.
Quote:
...we now hear his legal team were working on what could have been a perfectly serviceable defence - double jeopardy - I really can't see what incentive he had to call time on everything without first sticking around to see if it worked out...

My 10 second Wiki refresher says double jeopardy 'prevents an accused being tried again on the same charges and on the same facts, following a valid acquittal or conviction.' Surely the known facts and charges are quite different and Epstein knew he would die in prison either sooner or later.

Fishoodie had it right earlier for mine.
Quote:
Occams razor says yes [committed suicide].

1) Didn't he have enough reason to do so ?
2) Hadn't he already demonstrated a desire, & an ability to do so ?
3) If his prior, failed, attempt wasn't authentic; why didn't his Lawyers scream bloody murder & get him moved ??
...and most importantly
4) If you really wanted to murder someone; would you pick a Federal facility, where you have to pass thru a dozen levels of security, & are background checked before being admitted, & are under CC surveillance every step of the way ?

He'd dodged the bullet before, thru his influence, & now it must have been obvious to him that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison, & in, 'special units'. He was fucked, & he he knew damn well he was.

All of this remains true. So far as an obvious suicide risk being 'allowed' to hang himself, I'm reminded of the adage, 'never attribute to malice which can be explained by incompetence'.

Remove all unnecessary assumptions and he most likely killed himself, but you wouldn't rule much out. It's got everything. Conspiracy gold. One minute you're ridiculing QAnon for certifiable theories of international pedophile rings among the global elite, and the next...

Irresistible.


Couple of points. More along the lines of Devil's advocate than rebuttal, seeing as we're all grasping at shadows here.

1 - His reputation was ruined and his name reviled since the mid 2000s when he was charged in Florida. The Lolita Express was a pretty hideous byword for the man that everyone - including all of us - had heard of. This was a situation he had been living with for over a decade, without any attempts at suicide. This was a man who had no problem living under a cloud, as long as he was left at liberty to get on with his life.

2 - He had no idea what kind of sentence he was going to receive, or even if he would get one at all. We've all seen trials like OJ's. Justice is relatively straightforward to buy in the US provided you have the pockets, which he did. A coterie of top end lawyers and anything's possible. It's also the case that the kerfuffle he had in Florida had been significantly diminished by whatever sort of bargain he managed to strike there. There's no reason to suppose he wouldn't attempt the same MO a second time. In short, on the surface, he had everything to play for. If he was going to top himself, it would make far more sense for it to happen after a conviction and sentence, not before. Not unless you're one of life's natural pessimists. Everything we know of the man points in the opposite direction.

3 - On the issue of double-jeopardy. Whether we think it might fly or not as a defence, there's no doubt that's where his lawyers were going. And, notwithstanding your accurate reading of the definitions, I doubt they were second raters granted to him by the state who decided to take a punt on a fanciful longshot. They were almost certainly top performers with a realistic strategy.

4 - I get where Fishoodie is coming from. But a) we actually don't know yet that he tried to kill himself before. There are plenty of rumours that he was instead attacked. Neither has received official corroboration yet. b) His lawyers - people we're told he was spending up to 12 hours a day with - were amongst those advocating he not be subject to the intrusiveness of a suicide watch. And c) whilst no one would choose to off a problem personality in a federal prison when they could do so much more easily outside, it may well be the case that no one expected him to end up there in such short order, and in circumstances that looked so potentially permanent. The fact that he did - as he stepped off a plane - would, one imagines, have placed a rather large cat amongst the pigeons. If there actually were people worried that he might be able to incriminate them, it instantly became incumbent on them to get to him before he walked into a courtroom, irrespective of where he was being held.

5 - Finally, the principle of Occam's Razor cuts both ways. With so many coincidences and peculiarities surrounding events that night in the prison and in the time leading up to it, it's not over the top to ask the question: at what point do we entertain the idea that all these chance accidents of happenstance were perhaps not so coincidental. This is not at all unreasonable. In fact, it would be, I'd imagine, the starting point for anyone who was given the task of getting to the bottom of the affair.


Stuff like the O.J. trial gets trotted out. The O.J. trial was as much about whites versus blacks as it was whether O.J. really killed 2 people. Johnnie Cochran's M.O. was he represented the oppressed black man in a white system. If he won, it's not his fault the prosecution did a bad job. If he lost, that shows how much of a white system it was to sentence in his opinion an innocent man. Regardless of result, he was a hero to the people he wanted to represent.

What lawyer wanted to be defined as the defense attorney saving Jeffrey Epstein from justice in 2019? Someone will because lawyers out there want money and you have the mob lawyer people, but the defense is not going to be of the "I'm righting injustice here" kind. Plus you're scarred with that. Best case for a defense attorney would be wave around proof of higher more important people's involvement and hope for a plea deal.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:
Duff Paddy wrote:
Not that the Clintons had anything to do with this, they obviously could not and did not, but it was fascinating seeing the photo of Maxwell’s daughter at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding. It was an incredible gathering of the lizard people in fact. Mossad couldn’t bug the Oval Office but they had Monica Lewinsky’s apartment bugged and tried to use that to leverage Clinton. Now it turns out that Ghislaine Maxwell is/was almost certainly a Mossad agent...


Lewinsky was probably a Mossad honey trap in hindsight.


Doubtful. Clinton had plenty of women, Lewinsky was just the most famous.

Lives in the UK now.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:08 pm 
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Wtf

https://nypost.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-e ... ssion=true


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Seneca of the Night wrote:


Just too f**king bizarre

Quote:
Maxwell was reading a book called “The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives”


So she’s trolling


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:07 pm 
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Flyin Ryan wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Couple of points. More along the lines of Devil's advocate than rebuttal, seeing as we're all grasping at shadows here.

1 - His reputation was ruined and his name reviled since the mid 2000s when he was charged in Florida. The Lolita Express was a pretty hideous byword for the man that everyone - including all of us - had heard of. This was a situation he had been living with for over a decade, without any attempts at suicide. This was a man who had no problem living under a cloud, as long as he was left at liberty to get on with his life.

2 - He had no idea what kind of sentence he was going to receive, or even if he would get one at all. We've all seen trials like OJ's. Justice is relatively straightforward to buy in the US provided you have the pockets, which he did. A coterie of top end lawyers and anything's possible. It's also the case that the kerfuffle he had in Florida had been significantly diminished by whatever sort of bargain he managed to strike there. There's no reason to suppose he wouldn't attempt the same MO a second time. In short, on the surface, he had everything to play for. If he was going to top himself, it would make far more sense for it to happen after a conviction and sentence, not before. Not unless you're one of life's natural pessimists. Everything we know of the man points in the opposite direction.

3 - On the issue of double-jeopardy. Whether we think it might fly or not as a defence, there's no doubt that's where his lawyers were going. And, notwithstanding your accurate reading of the definitions, I doubt they were second raters granted to him by the state who decided to take a punt on a fanciful longshot. They were almost certainly top performers with a realistic strategy.

4 - I get where Fishoodie is coming from. But a) we actually don't know yet that he tried to kill himself before. There are plenty of rumours that he was instead attacked. Neither has received official corroboration yet. b) His lawyers - people we're told he was spending up to 12 hours a day with - were amongst those advocating he not be subject to the intrusiveness of a suicide watch. And c) whilst no one would choose to off a problem personality in a federal prison when they could do so much more easily outside, it may well be the case that no one expected him to end up there in such short order, and in circumstances that looked so potentially permanent. The fact that he did - as he stepped off a plane - would, one imagines, have placed a rather large cat amongst the pigeons. If there actually were people worried that he might be able to incriminate them, it instantly became incumbent on them to get to him before he walked into a courtroom, irrespective of where he was being held.

5 - Finally, the principle of Occam's Razor cuts both ways. With so many coincidences and peculiarities surrounding events that night in the prison and in the time leading up to it, it's not over the top to ask the question: at what point do we entertain the idea that all these chance accidents of happenstance were perhaps not so coincidental. This is not at all unreasonable. In fact, it would be, I'd imagine, the starting point for anyone who was given the task of getting to the bottom of the affair.


Stuff like the O.J. trial gets trotted out. The O.J. trial was as much about whites versus blacks as it was whether O.J. really killed 2 people. Johnnie Cochran's M.O. was he represented the oppressed black man in a white system. If he won, it's not his fault the prosecution did a bad job. If he lost, that shows how much of a white system it was to sentence in his opinion an innocent man. Regardless of result, he was a hero to the people he wanted to represent.

What lawyer wanted to be defined as the defense attorney saving Jeffrey Epstein from justice in 2019? Someone will because lawyers out there want money and you have the mob lawyer people, but the defense is not going to be of the "I'm righting injustice here" kind. Plus you're scarred with that. Best case for a defense attorney would be wave around proof of higher more important people's involvement and hope for a plea deal.


Just to be clear, I'm not rehashing the ins and outs of OJ's trial to make any point apropos him, or Johnnie Cochran, or the racial fault lines that undergirded the trial. I'm simply pointing out that in the US even the most high profile case - one which looks 100% a foregone conclusion - can turn on its head if the defence know what they're up to and the dice fall the right way. The point here being that Epstein - no matter how grim his situation - had no reason to off himself before knowing the outcome. At least, none that we know of.

I respectfully disagree with the picture you present of lawyers preferring not to defend the impossible. That may be the case for many of them. But those with some ambition will know that there is a very real prize on offer for successfully defending the indefensible. It can cement a reputation as a top defence attorney and by extension open all sorts of professional doors that were previously closed. A risky strategy, to be sure. But the rewards are high enough to entice plenty of bright sparks to step forward.

I agree with you that ultimately a plea deal would seem to have been the logical route for Epstein. Something that would have made him a blabbering liability for others. All the more reason to shut him up if you had the wherewithal to do so.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:11 am 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
The point here being that Epstein - no matter how grim his situation - had no reason to off himself before knowing the outcome. At least, none that we know of.

This is silly and I thought you'd already conceded this point? Not only had he had plenty of reasons to be suicidal but he'd recently attempted suicide - a pretty good indicator of his mental state. Penitentiary time for a rich chomo is going to be living hell.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:27 am 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Santa wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


Great name for a great artist. I love her collaborations with sculptor Stacy Kneegrow.


Hard to think of a more appropriate one, isn't it. I wonder did she choose it as her artistic nom de plume.


I saw a doco on her last Sunday, it's her real name...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:29 am 
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hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Santa wrote:
hermes-trismegistus wrote:
Just to come back to this issue for a moment. Here are some examples of the work of Aussie Artist Patricia Piccinini, described as a protege of Tony Podesta's in an interview the Guardian conducted with him when he was riding the wave of success in the mid noughties. To be fair, there is serious technical ability on display here. But no one can look at this stuff and think it represents the tastes of people with a healthy inner life.

NSFW. You have been warned.
Spoiler: show
ImageImageImageImageImage


Great name for a great artist. I love her collaborations with sculptor Stacy Kneegrow.


Hard to think of a more appropriate one, isn't it. I wonder did she choose it as her artistic nom de plume.


Her lifesize nudes are eerily realistic. I was at her Canberra exhibition and you expected them to move.

Creepily realistic even down to the genitalia

:shock:


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