80 Years since the USSR liberated Poland from the err Polish
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:16 pm
The definitive rugby union forum. Talk to fans from around the world about your favourite team
https://forum.planetrugby.com/
Only half. They left the other bit to the Soviets.Flyin Ryan wrote:Laughs.
It'll offend Polish sensibilities for sure, but I think the Nazis had overran Poland circa 1939.
Naw its the first time they invaded Poland (when they where allies with the Nazi's).spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
That'll be news to the Patriarch of Moscowobelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
I don't think he had a lot of influence during the Communist era...Brazil wrote:That'll be news to the Patriarch of Moscowobelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
obelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
Truth hurts Bimbobimboman wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
That’s why they signed up with the UK military en masses to help liberate Europe.
I don't know about Germans but for the Russian army mass Raping and Marauding was the norm which is why a lot of Eastern Europe absolutely despises them. Cities were worse off after Russian "Liberation" than after German blitzkrieg. - It was reversed if you were Jewish ofc.obelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
AlanBengio wrote:Truth hurts Bimbobimboman wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
That’s why they signed up with the UK military en masses to help liberate Europe.
I was referring to the pact signed in August 1939 between Great Britain and Poland - a pact highly despised by Churchill btw (who was not in power yet). Pact obliged Britain to defend Poland against “any European Power” invading it (of note: France did not wanted to be involved on it, as they already signed one in relation to defense of Poland in case of Germany attack only).tc27 wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
Why? If the UK had done something as stupid as also declaring war on the USSR in 1939 Poland would now be annexed permanently into a Nazi German state or still part of the Soviet Empire.
If anything they should be mad at FDR for being taken in by Stalin.
I did not say that to offend you anyway - it was just a base for discussions.bimboman wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Truth hurts Bimbobimboman wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
That’s why they signed up with the UK military en masses to help liberate Europe.
I wonder how many died fighting Italian fascists? If you think they hated us you’re in for a surprise .
Actually, the complete written treaty (not available at the time, but available to AlanBengio today) specifically states aggression by Germany.tc27 wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
Why? If the UK had done something as stupid as also declaring war on the USSR in 1939 Poland would now be annexed permanently into a Nazi German state or still part of the Soviet Empire.
If anything they should be mad at FDR for being taken in by Stalin.
.Saint wrote:Actually, the complete written treaty (not available at the time, but available to AlanBengio today) specifically states aggression by Germany.tc27 wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
Why? If the UK had done something as stupid as also declaring war on the USSR in 1939 Poland would now be annexed permanently into a Nazi German state or still part of the Soviet Empire.
If anything they should be mad at FDR for being taken in by Stalin.
Regardless of that, the invasion of Poland was a joint pact between Germany and the USSR. The Poles at the time certainly recognised their best chance was throwing in with us, and if they feel betrayed it's because of the post war sell out - which has far more to do with FDR than anything else (minutes of the various big 3 meetings show that Chirchill very much wanted to reverse to pre WW2 borders in central Eurooe, where the Soviets wanted to keep their territorial gains and FDR was "ambivalent" to put it mildly
Yeah abusing the locals is never a good idea, part of what brought Napoleon down in the peninsular war was having to devote huge numbers of men to protecting supply lines and messengers as well as general asymmetrical war having brutalised the Spanish and Portuguese populations encouraging them to somewhat en mass take up arms to wage the guerrilla. They were effective too, killed a lot of Frenchmen. Britain and her allies weren't perfect (Badajoz...), but, by and large Peninsular and even French civilians had positive experiences of them. Wellington was insistent on paying for food whereas Napoleon had long expected the army to supply itself by any means necessary.FullbackAce wrote:I don't know about Germans but for the Russian army mass Raping and Marauding was the norm which is why a lot of Eastern Europe absolutely despises them. Cities were worse off after Russian "Liberation" than after German blitzkrieg. - It was reversed if you were Jewish ofc.obelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
Anyway my comments intended to be only a base for discussions - probably did start all with the wrong footPlastic Sarrie wrote:I thought the Poles were f**ked off with Britain for the post war sell out?
Ffs don't apologise for a well founded base .AlanBengio wrote:Anyway my comments intended to be only a base for discussions - probably did start all with the wrong footPlastic Sarrie wrote:I thought the Poles were f**ked off with Britain for the post war sell out?
I was assuming by this point in the thread you would have blamed MercedesAlanBengio wrote:Anyway my comments intended to be only a base for discussions - probably did start all with the wrong footPlastic Sarrie wrote:I thought the Poles were f**ked off with Britain for the post war sell out?
The Yanks beat them to it.backrow wrote:Dunno why the ruskis were so keen on rape - could have just gone to a Celtic country or NZ and get all the poon they wanted for a couple of pints of snakebite
Poles apart: the bitter conflict over a nation’s communist historyobelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
tc27 wrote:AlanBengio wrote:Also not many people now that Britain was obliged to declare war also on USSR by pacts - and never did so.
If you talks to Poles nowadays about WWII they are still angry with UK for that
Why? If the UK had done something as stupid as also declaring war on the USSR in 1939 Poland would now be annexed permanently into a Nazi German state or still part of the Soviet Empire.
If anything they should be mad at FDR for being taken in by Stalin.
Don't let your anti Russian bias get in the way of course.FullbackAce wrote:I don't know about Germans but for the Russian army mass Raping and Marauding was the norm which is why a lot of Eastern Europe absolutely despises them. Cities were worse off after Russian "Liberation" than after German blitzkrieg. - It was reversed if you were Jewish ofc.obelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
??? You don't need an order when they barely feed you, don't give you enough clothes and shoot you if on retreat. but I bet the girls understood poor desperate soldiers and didn't mind being raped.PUMITA wrote:Don't let your anti Russian bias get in the way of course.FullbackAce wrote:I don't know about Germans but for the Russian army mass Raping and Marauding was the norm which is why a lot of Eastern Europe absolutely despises them. Cities were worse off after Russian "Liberation" than after German blitzkrieg. - It was reversed if you were Jewish ofc.obelixtim wrote:Visited Poland a few years ago, and in one city came across a massive Russian war cemetery. You could see the Russians had spent a lot of time and effort making it a fitting memorial...statues, tanks and artillery pieces on plinths etc, but the place had obviously been totally neglected and ignored since they left... obviously the Poles didn't give a shit about them.spookly wrote:I guess for it to be considered liberation they'd need to f*ck off again afterwards, not linger and install a puppet government and insist they join your military/economic bloc.
By contrast, at a friends farm at a small village in Southern Poland, there were 5 or 6 Germans buried down near their gate. What was wierd (I thought) was that someone 60 years later was placing fresh flowers on their grave every week, but no one knew who it was. It made no sense to me, but the only thing I could think of was that the Germans were christians, unlike the Russians.
The impression I got, was that although the Poles weren't that keen on the Germans, they absolutely hated the Russians.
Yes there was the issue of rapes and murders by groups of Russian soldiers. But the way you make it out it would seem to be systematic and ordered from above. Many officers tried to stop such things and not all the soldiery were brutes either. History is not one broad brush. Many people in Eastern Europe welcomed the Soviets. Some because they were Jews in hiding or dying in camps, or other ideological enemies of the Nazis.
what does that have to do with anything? did I say allied soldiers were angels? Fact is even tho there were crimes committed on the western side, a whole lot of work was done later on to restore the region and bring it back on its feet. Whereas East was frozen in communist hell and Instead of apologizing Russians typically first deny the accusation, then deflect it because someone else did the same, then bring more excuses and at the end blame the victims. much like this post actually.And let's not forget atrocities were being committed throughout the war and at it's end by people determined to have revenge. Ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland for example, Poles in Volhynia which is why many Poles formerly of that area were pleased when Russia seized the Crimea. the Serbs in Yugoslavia. Also what of the rapes committed by Allied soldiers ? French colonial troops and GI's out for a good time both before and after the wars end.
Again, no one said that. I said that marauding was the norm on the eastern front in WW2 and most of it from the Soviet side.Let's not make this issue of rape and criminality from soldiers one that only applies to the nasty old Russians but the unfortunate fact that during war in any historical period allows standards of behaviour to slide and acts such as these to become commonplace.
Well, I never cared about anything else he said so I fail to see how that relates to this. Also have you ever heard of Trump or Erdogan or Boris?By the way that puppet Saakashvili describing Russia as having no culture was one of the most laughable things I have ever heard from a so called head of a country. A nasty piece of work now running scared in the Ukraine.
FTFYShort Man Syndrome wrote:People of Ruislip (Polish) STOP your own war memorial STOP expecting others to do your work for you QUESTION MARK.
The Germans in ww2 were pretty sound, a little bit of marauding but generally the locals loved them, especially in the East. Why else would they put fresh flowers on the German gravesFullbackAce wrote:
I don't know about Germans but for the Russian army mass Raping and Marauding was the norm .
I don't get it. Is it funny?ManInTheBar wrote:FTFYShort Man Syndrome wrote:People of Ruislip (Polish) STOP your own war memorial STOP expecting others to do your work for you QUESTION MARK.
No, it wasn't.Short Man Syndrome wrote:I don't get it. Is it funny?ManInTheBar wrote:FTFYShort Man Syndrome wrote:People of Ruislip (Polish) STOP your own war memorial STOP expecting others to do your work for you QUESTION MARK.