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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:01 pm 
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J Man wrote:
Imagine the team you'd pick with hindsight for the England game:

14. B Smith
12. SBW
7. Cane
3. Franks
2. Coles (bit unfair, Taylor was playing well and only poor in that England game)


B.Smith is a walk-up start for any team in world rugby, including the ABs. All-time great player.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:06 pm 
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J Man wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.


He has f#@ked his legacy with that call and that is how he will be remembered. It was the Cullen at centre of the 2010s.



If you think it would have made a blind bit of difference ...

The real mistake I believe ( rather than selections ) was the concentration on the Irish game , because they had finally managed to beat us a couple of times , I believe inspite of some evidence they were now a busted flush a huge amount of psychological capital was expended in giving them a thrashing .

Getting up again to peak performance so soon was always improbable in hindsight , England should have been the focus .


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:06 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Monkey Magic wrote:
Big losses to England and Australia sour his record. Losong is one thing, getting trounced is something else.
Semi loss is neither here nor there as the squad itself was on par with several other teams - whether you blame him for that is up for debate.

Think he benefited from a pretty shambolic setup on the boks and wallabies at different times post 2011.

Biggest thing against him for me is the lions series, it should never have been that close.

Sounds like a lot of negatives but he still had a great overall record and they played good rugby at times - top 4 spot for him

Of the Lions, SBW red card plus Warburton managing to reverse a penalty were situation beyond Hansen's control.

Shouldn't have been that close? Some of those Lions players are the greatest produced by their countries.


And the jumping into a tackle penalty. Can’t forget that :((


Aye, that series was a real missed opportunity for the All Blacks. Kiwi ill-discipline really cost them the series win.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Steve Hansen subbing on Laumape after the red card to retain 7 backs and dropping to 7 forwards was a very interesting call that is often forgotten. Surprised no one has mentioned it, it was a worse decision than ScoBarr to 6 imo.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:40 pm 
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trapper wrote:
He was better than Ted imo. With the personnel Ted had in 2007 he should have won with ease but made horrible, horrible decisions in the lead up and during that comp, worse than Shag ever did so I’d rank him #1.


And people forget how close we came to losing in the 2011 final (the width of the posts really) even considering the problems at #10


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:49 pm 
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kiwigreg369 wrote:
And
Wilderbeast wrote:
He must have been pretty good to offset Foster, right?


And having to deal with an average team 2015-19...

I personally think he’s - in totality - as good as Ted. Which probably makes in top 3-5 All Black coaches ever.


Average? It was surely a step away from 2015, but it is still among one of the most effective and winning All Black teams in history.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Yeah I think people oversell how bad post 2015 was. 2015 was exceptional after all.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:19 pm 
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naki wrote:
In the pantheon of AB coaches?

He has a better record than any modern day national coach (only bettered by The Needle in history). He ended up with the same record, technically slightly better, than the revered Sir Ted at RWCs - whose success he was obviously part of. He failed to win a Lions tour, but won 6 out of 8 Championships. He lost to Ireland for the first time.

Is he more likely to be judged by the results gained during the Wayne Smith-assisted period? Is it more important how to conclude your career (eg ultimate success for Henry, failure for Shag)? Or will he be judged by the quality of ABs brought through during his era?

Discuss.


We lost.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:24 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Monkey Magic wrote:
Big losses to England and Australia sour his record. Losong is one thing, getting trounced is something else.
Semi loss is neither here nor there as the squad itself was on par with several other teams - whether you blame him for that is up for debate.

Think he benefited from a pretty shambolic setup on the boks and wallabies at different times post 2011.

Biggest thing against him for me is the lions series, it should never have been that close.

Sounds like a lot of negatives but he still had a great overall record and they played good rugby at times - top 4 spot for him

Of the Lions, SBW red card plus Warburton managing to reverse a penalty were situation beyond Hansen's control.

Shouldn't have been that close? Some of those Lions players are the greatest produced by their countries.


And the jumping into a tackle penalty. Can’t forget that :((


Aye, that series was a real missed opportunity for the All Blacks. Kiwi ill-discipline really cost them the series win.


Yes the red card was the series decider as you say. Has someone hacked JM’s account?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:27 pm 
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trapper wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
trapper wrote:
He was better than Ted imo. With the personnel Ted had in 2007 he should have won with ease but made horrible, horrible decisions in the lead up and during that comp, worse than Shag ever did so I’d rank him #1.

Really? Should Ted have had a third 10 on the bench and a captain other then McCaw?


Possibly referring to the extensive rotation?

Ah right, I'm not sure if the rotation was as big a deal as made out. We were a wing from having our best starting team out there really (aside from a still not fully fit Smith at centre).


It was a big deal imo, some dodgy selections and the fact Ted decided it would be a good idea for the ABs to have a holiday in the South of France or something in the middle of the comp to relax or some bullshit. Look, my memory of 2007 is not the best as I have spent years wiping it from said memory but I do remember it being a fecking disaster for all sorts of reasons. We had the team to win that WC but Ted blew it big time.


More than rotation I think it was the reconditioning program that undid our 2007 campaign. The AB's were in great shape to win a world rugby pose down on the French Riviera against the rest of the world rugby teams but they weren't rugby match fit. Missing half the Super Rugby season f**ked the AB's. Ted has admitted this.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:31 pm 
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UncleFB wrote:
I think he'll be ranked lower than he deserves based on how it ended due to the unparalleled success in a long era that he was a key part of anyway.

However, and attn Booji, despite my feeling on the above I will never stop being angry and saying I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.


Stay on the path, don't get involved, stay on the path ...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:10 am 
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booji boy wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I think he'll be ranked lower than he deserves based on how it ended due to the unparalleled success in a long era that he was a key part of anyway.

However, and attn Booji, despite my feeling on the above I will never stop being angry and saying I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.


Stay on the path, don't get involved, stay on the path ...

Sadly I think this is what my summer is going to look like:

Image

;)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:13 am 
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The Lions series 'loss', the two Irish losses, and the semi final bum shellacking are all I can remember.

*Life as an All Blacks fan.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:26 am 
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Re: 2007

For all the blah blah blah about conditioning and rotation, all they had to do to win that match is drop a goal in the last five minutes. They pretty much controlled territory and possession for most of the game. The biggest failure was no plan B should plan A stuff up. Apparently a dropped goal had never ever entered their minds until literally the final minute when McAlister had to do a shitty one from 40m out. Unlike this year's semi-final exit, the ABs should still have won that 07 match. The French had only turned up to park the bus and tackle all day.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:40 am 
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Auckman wrote:
Re: 2007

For all the blah blah blah about conditioning and rotation, all they had to do to win that match is drop a goal in the last five minutes. They pretty much controlled territory and possession for most of the game. The biggest failure was no plan B should plan A stuff up. Apparently a dropped goal had never ever entered their minds until literally the final minute when McAlister had to do a shitty one from 40m out. Unlike this year's semi-final exit, the ABs should still have won that 07 match. The French had only turned up to park the bus and tackle all day.


If I recall correctly, McAlister only did it because he heard advantage called, which was for a knock on and you don’t get to go back to the scrum if you drop goal in that situation. So he shat the bed a bit there.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:45 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Keith Robinson was never a first choice lock. That was a cute selection to combat the niggle. McAlister also debatable over Mauger (though I think Ted considered McAlister to be no.1)



Keith was the best lock in that squad.

He was a player who would have been an All Black great if not for injuries.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:50 am 
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Auckman wrote:
Re: 2007

For all the blah blah blah about conditioning and rotation, all they had to do to win that match is drop a goal in the last five minutes. They pretty much controlled territory and possession for most of the game. The biggest failure was no plan B should plan A stuff up. Apparently a dropped goal had never ever entered their minds until literally the final minute when McAlister had to do a shitty one from 40m out. Unlike this year's semi-final exit, the ABs should still have won that 07 match. The French had only turned up to park the bus and tackle all day.


Exactly. Some of the dumbest rugby I've seen. After 3000 pick and goes, going nowhere, with a backline freezing to death outside the pack, what did they do?

Another 3000 pick and goes.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:51 am 
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Sonny Blount wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Keith Robinson was never a first choice lock. That was a cute selection to combat the niggle. McAlister also debatable over Mauger (though I think Ted considered McAlister to be no.1)



Keith was the best lock in that squad.

He was a player who would have been an All Black great if not for injuries.


Yeah Naki pointed this out. I think my recollection is a bit off, his lack of games (in retrospect) probably convinced me he was never first choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:27 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Sonny Blount wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Keith Robinson was never a first choice lock. That was a cute selection to combat the niggle. McAlister also debatable over Mauger (though I think Ted considered McAlister to be no.1)



Keith was the best lock in that squad.

He was a player who would have been an All Black great if not for injuries.


Yeah Naki pointed this out. I think my recollection is a bit off, his lack of games (in retrospect) probably convinced me he was never first choice.

Even though I was disagreeing with you early on it's a bit bollocks to suggest he was the best lock in that squad. Ali Williams was our best lock and he nabbed a lot of French lineout ball in that match (that they failed to capitalise on).


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:55 am 
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Auckman wrote:
Re: 2007

For all the blah blah blah about conditioning and rotation, all they had to do to win that match is drop a goal in the last five minutes. They pretty much controlled territory and possession for most of the game. The biggest failure was no plan B should plan A stuff up. Apparently a dropped goal had never ever entered their minds until literally the final minute when McAlister had to do a shitty one from 40m out. Unlike this year's semi-final exit, the ABs should still have won that 07 match. The French had only turned up to park the bus and tackle all day.



The game wasn't played to the rules of rugby as typically understood at the time.

If it was it is likely the All Blacks would have won comfortably considering they broke all sorts of records for phases in possession.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:57 am 
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obelixtim wrote:
Auckman wrote:
Re: 2007

For all the blah blah blah about conditioning and rotation, all they had to do to win that match is drop a goal in the last five minutes. They pretty much controlled territory and possession for most of the game. The biggest failure was no plan B should plan A stuff up. Apparently a dropped goal had never ever entered their minds until literally the final minute when McAlister had to do a shitty one from 40m out. Unlike this year's semi-final exit, the ABs should still have won that 07 match. The French had only turned up to park the bus and tackle all day.


Exactly. Some of the dumbest rugby I've seen. After 3000 pick and goes, going nowhere, with a backline freezing to death outside the pack, what did they do?

Another 3000 pick and goes.



In a typical game their industry would have netted them a fair number of penalties.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:37 am 
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Sonny Blount wrote:
obelixtim wrote:
Auckman wrote:
Re: 2007

For all the blah blah blah about conditioning and rotation, all they had to do to win that match is drop a goal in the last five minutes. They pretty much controlled territory and possession for most of the game. The biggest failure was no plan B should plan A stuff up. Apparently a dropped goal had never ever entered their minds until literally the final minute when McAlister had to do a shitty one from 40m out. Unlike this year's semi-final exit, the ABs should still have won that 07 match. The French had only turned up to park the bus and tackle all day.


Exactly. Some of the dumbest rugby I've seen. After 3000 pick and goes, going nowhere, with a backline freezing to death outside the pack, what did they do?

Another 3000 pick and goes.



In a typical game their industry would have netted them a fair number of penalties.

That may be right, but they should have set for a drop goal much earlier than that - that was a team leadership failure.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:43 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:
And
Wilderbeast wrote:
He must have been pretty good to offset Foster, right?


And having to deal with an average team 2015-19...

I personally think he’s - in totality - as good as Ted. Which probably makes in top 3-5 All Black coaches ever.


Average? It was surely a step away from 2015, but it is still among one of the most effective and winning All Black teams in history.


That Shag could maintain a very high winning ratio despite losing the players he lost speaks highly of his coaching.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:50 am 
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Sorry but the Scott Barrett/Sam Cane selection was a howler.

Scott Barret had never started in that position. Playing there late in the game when the opposition is tired, other subs are on and the structure has loosened is much different to the start when everyone is fresh and executing the tactics they have trained all week exactly.

But it affected not only only the 6 position itself. It effected Ardie Savea who had not played 7 all season and had to change his game . It affected Read who had to play a different game but we also didn't have Barret coming off the bench which was a big part of our game as well.

We may have still lost if Cane had of started with Barret on the bench but the game would have unfolded in a completely different way and IMO we would have had a better chance.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:18 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
I think he'll be ranked lower than he deserves based on how it ended due to the unparalleled success in a long era that he was a key part of anyway.

However, and attn Booji, despite my feeling on the above I will never stop being angry and saying I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.

Cane played the 2nd half and he made no difference.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:25 am 
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Willie Falloon wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I think he'll be ranked lower than he deserves based on how it ended due to the unparalleled success in a long era that he was a key part of anyway.

However, and attn Booji, despite my feeling on the above I will never stop being angry and saying I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.

Cane played the 2nd half and he made no difference.

Cane isn't a bench impact player, hes best used in the starting lineup ... that was another reason that selection was so poor (in saying that he was the 6th highest tackler for the ABs in his 40 mins).

And at any rate,as I've already explained, the selection had a wider impact than just Barrett as a player instead of Cane.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:34 am 
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Willie Falloon wrote:
Cane played the 2nd half and he made no difference.


I don't see this as being relevant. We would have lost against the French in 99 with Cullen at fullback but it was still a shocker of a call.

An individual selection can still be horrendous without affecting the result.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:35 am 
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I think horrendous is overselling it a tad.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:39 am 
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J Man wrote:
Willie Falloon wrote:
Cane played the 2nd half and he made no difference.


I don't see this as being relevant. We would have lost against the French in 99 with Cullen at fullback but it was still a shocker of a call.

An individual selection can still be horrendous without affecting the result.


It does also highlight one of the things that had set earlier shag teams apart and that was missing. Previously the bench were an absolute weapon. By the world cup there were some good players but no one you would think who could have a massive impact.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:39 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
I think horrendous is overselling it a tad.


I'm not calling that specific selection horrendous - I'm making a wider point.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:58 am 
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J Man wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
I think horrendous is overselling it a tad.


I'm not calling that specific selection horrendous - I'm making a wider point.


Point taken, though I think some are still putting far too much on this selection.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:09 am 
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eugenius wrote:
J Man wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.


He has f#@ked his legacy with that call and that is how he will be remembered. It was the Cullen at centre of the 2010s.



If you think it would have made a blind bit of difference ...

The real mistake I believe ( rather than selections ) was the concentration on the Irish game , because they had finally managed to beat us a couple of times , I believe inspite of some evidence they were now a busted flush a huge amount of psychological capital was expended in giving them a thrashing .

Getting up again to peak performance so soon was always improbable in hindsight , England should have been the focus .


This is right. Too much brain power went into the Irish, who should have been grubbered away with an 8 or 9 point win. Instead we went to town on them.

(which was fun, as they clearly needed to be taught a lesson, but it was all tactics no strategy)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:57 am 
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Willie Falloon wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I think he'll be ranked lower than he deserves based on how it ended due to the unparalleled success in a long era that he was a key part of anyway.

However, and attn Booji, despite my feeling on the above I will never stop being angry and saying I told you so with the selection of a Barrett over Cane.

Cane played the 2nd half and he made no difference.


That's a bit like saying Williamson or Root still batted at 11 and it didn't make any difference to the total. Or Boult or Starc may not have had the new ball but still bowled first change so it wouldn't make any difference to the amount of wickets taken.

Fact is Sam Cane is the All Black who hurts the opposition in the tackle Pretty much the only one after Owen Franks was (foolishly as it turns out) discarded. Most of the other All Black forwards have adapted their game around him being there smashing people when that suddenly wasn't happening in that crucial opening 15 minutes it would have had a huge impact physically and mentally to both sides. Maybe not the winning or losing of the game but to underplay it is dangerous and worrying suugesting similar poor All Black selections before WC knockout games are on the cards in the future.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:10 am 
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Tubbyj is bang on the money in this thread. Well done, sir.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:18 am 
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tubbyj wrote:
Sorry but the Scott Barrett/Sam Cane selection was a howler.

Scott Barret had never started in that position. Playing there late in the game when the opposition is tired, other subs are on and the structure has loosened is much different to the start when everyone is fresh and executing the tactics they have trained all week exactly.

But it affected not only only the 6 position itself. It effected Ardie Savea who had not played 7 all season and had to change his game . It affected Read who had to play a different game but we also didn't have Barret coming off the bench which was a big part of our game as well.

We may have still lost if Cane had of started with Barret on the bench but the game would have unfolded in a completely different way and IMO we would have had a better chance.


Hansen selected Kaino at lock and cost us a first loss to Ireland.

He persevered with the BB / DMac axis of instability for over two wasted years.

He selected Jordie Barrett.

He was Ted’s assistant.

He still is.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:31 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
tubbyj wrote:
Sorry but the Scott Barrett/Sam Cane selection was a howler.

Scott Barret had never started in that position. Playing there late in the game when the opposition is tired, other subs are on and the structure has loosened is much different to the start when everyone is fresh and executing the tactics they have trained all week exactly.

But it affected not only only the 6 position itself. It effected Ardie Savea who had not played 7 all season and had to change his game . It affected Read who had to play a different game but we also didn't have Barret coming off the bench which was a big part of our game as well.

We may have still lost if Cane had of started with Barret on the bench but the game would have unfolded in a completely different way and IMO we would have had a better chance.


Hansen selected Kaino at lock and cost us a first loss to Ireland.

He persevered with the BB / DMac axis of instability for over two wasted years.

He selected Jordie Barrett.

He was Ted’s assistant.

He still is.


:shock: Whoa! Harsh indeed!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:31 am 
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Another thing that is forgotten is that Tri nations in 2009 when Hansen was the forwards coach and selected Isaac Ross at lock from virtually nowhere and then put him in charge of calling the lineouts. He then threw him under the bus when things went wrong. After that tri nations there was a 'reshuffle' in roles before the EOYT and Ted took back over coaching the forwards.

Of head coaches in my time following rugby since the early 80s I would rank him third behind Graham Henry and Brian Lochore but just ahead of Laurie Mains and far ahead of the rest.

As far as assistants go he is second behind Wayne Smith but better than everyone else.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:39 pm 
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Barrett was a howler.

Leaving Crotty out was criminal negligence


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:19 pm 
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Not selecting Ben Smith - with all that RWC experience - on the bench was a mistake too.

Instead he goes with Jordie Fvcking Barrett. Who, to no one's surprise, shat the bed. Again.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:24 pm 
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Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.


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