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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:28 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:30 pm 
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A 2006 Richie McCaw would have made no difference.
A 2005 Dan Carter would have made no difference.
A 1966 Colin Meads would have made no difference.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:32 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.


Yeah all this revisionist nonsense. I believe Ben Smith was playing when we were thrashed by the Wallabies earlier this yeah. Didn't help much in that match.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:35 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


Well said, CI.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:35 pm 
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CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:37 pm 
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booji boy wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.


Yeah all this revisionist nonsense. I believe Ben Smith was playing when we were thrashed by the Wallabies earlier this yeah. Didn't help much in that match.


Overly simplistic garbage doesn't help much either. That match had more to do with another piece of Barrett stupidity (this time Scott's), than Ben Smith not being able to stem the tide all by himself.

One reason the 2015 team did so well was because it was such an experienced unit. A high point in Hansen's career.

Why, in 2019, when we all knew it was a relatively inexperienced team, did he discard the few senior heads we did have? Crotty, Smith, SBW (bench), Cane (bench).

A mistake.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.


Na, that was JB doing what JB does. He would fit in well at the Blues. He has that X factor and the willingness to 'express himself' that Blues players have been famous for over the past 15 years. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.


Ah, the old "there was nuffink we could do, boss" gambit. Fvck that's weak from an All Blacks supporter.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:42 pm 
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We lost that game through poor tactics, forwards not on their game, and an inability to recognise our gameplan wasn’t working and change it. The fact an out-of-form veteran wasn’t on the bench is so far from the reasons we lost it’s ridiculous. But he do love to hate on Jordie so...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:44 pm 
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jdogscoop wrote:
booji boy wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.


Yeah all this revisionist nonsense. I believe Ben Smith was playing when we were thrashed by the Wallabies earlier this yeah. Didn't help much in that match.


Overly simplistic garbage doesn't help much either. That match had more to do with another piece of Barrett stupidity (this time Scott's), than Ben Smith not being able to stem the tide all by himself.

One reason the 2015 team did so well was because it was such an experienced unit. A high point in Hansen's career.

Why, in 2019, when we all knew it was a relatively inexperienced team, did he discard the few senior heads we did have? Crotty, Smith, SBW (bench), Cane (bench).

A mistake.


Fair enough but Ben Smith's form just hadn't been that great leading into this RWC which is why he was dropped from the starting 15. Sure I would had him on the bench ahead of JB too but apart from that one howler by JB I don't see how Ben from Accounts would have made much difference.

It's like others mentioning Crotty. Sure he's a great player but would he have been that much better than Goodhue to make a difference in that match?

The battle was really lost up front anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.


Angus Ta'avao was right up his arse. All Blacks retaining the ball was more likely than a turnover.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:47 pm 
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J Man wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.


Angus Ta'avao was right up his arse. All Blacks retaining the ball was more likely than a turnover.


It's SBW's fault. All these greenhorn kids coming up are obsessed with the offload.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
We lost that game through poor tactics, forwards not on their game, and an inability to recognise our gameplan wasn’t working and change it. The fact an out-of-form veteran wasn’t on the bench is so far from the reasons we lost it’s ridiculous. But he do love to hate on Jordie so...


That "out of form" veteran looked pretty good the next week against Wales. Certainly better than J Baz did all tournament.

Poor selection overall was certainly a factor in an underwhelming performance.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:48 pm 
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Yes, you’re possibly right now I remember it. Angus was who he tried to offload to. Wasn’t JB going backward at the speed of sound though?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:49 pm 
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Sorry jdog but Wales B...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:50 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Sorry jdog but Wales B...


Well J-Spaz got credit for his game against Namibia...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:50 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Yes, you’re possibly right now I remember it. Angus was who he tried to offload to. Wasn’t JB going backward at the speed of sound though?


I'm literally watching it now. JB was hit in the tackle on the century, Angus recognized it and tried to premeditate the ruck - hence why he dropped the silly pass.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:53 pm 
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J Man wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Yes, you’re possibly right now I remember it. Angus was who he tried to offload to. Wasn’t JB going backward at the speed of sound though?


I'm literally watching it now. JB was hit in the tackle on the century, Angus recognized it and tried to premeditate the ruck - hence why he dropped the silly pass.


The Barretts do have a tendency to give one the shits by shunning the percentage play in favour of the hail Mary. For Beauden it sometimes comes off.

Jordie is not Beauden.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:54 pm 
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J Man wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Yes, you’re possibly right now I remember it. Angus was who he tried to offload to. Wasn’t JB going backward at the speed of sound though?


I'm literally watching it now. JB was hit in the tackle on the century, Angus recognized it and tried to premeditate the ruck - hence why he dropped the silly pass.


Yeah Jordie knew he was f**ked. Angus was on the spot to do what forwards do best so hardly his fault. JB got the play wrong. Definitely not arguing that. Just feel anyone using this as a talking point on why we lost is clutching at straws.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:59 pm 
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jdogscoop wrote:
J Man wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Yes, you’re possibly right now I remember it. Angus was who he tried to offload to. Wasn’t JB going backward at the speed of sound though?


I'm literally watching it now. JB was hit in the tackle on the century, Angus recognized it and tried to premeditate the ruck - hence why he dropped the silly pass.


The Barretts do have a tendency to give one the shits by shunning the percentage play in favour of the hail Mary. For Beauden it sometimes comes off.

Jordie is not Beauden.


Yeah kicking had been failing all game. Jordie tried to do the Aussie tactic but better, unfortunately, it went the way of the Aussies.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:06 pm 
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jdogscoop wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


Well said, CI.


The score was close at that point, but it would have been a travesty had we snuck past from there. We were comprehensively outplayed from the kick off and didn't deserve the win. But it's trying times like those that you need experience like B Smith and O Franks.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:29 pm 
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The JB brain explosion was a critical moment. When it happened you could feel the atmosphere in the pub I was watching it deflate.

The one key selection that could have been the difference for mine was TJ instead of Aaron Smith but since Snecky was amazing the week before with a dominant forward pack it's hard to fault Shag too much for that one. The absolute thing no one predicted was the entire forward pack bar Ardie not turning up to play.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:43 pm 
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My personal moment of deflation was the Whitelock slap. An attacking lineout to defending in our own territory. Sucker punch :(


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:57 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
My personal moment of deflation was the Whitelock slap. An attacking lineout to defending in our own territory. Sucker punch :(


Yep, the Jordie brainfart had the bells tolling. England had given us a sniff of a way back in, we were 6 points down and finally had some momentum (SBW and Cane had found some space on Reece's wing and the Anglos were finally starting to miss tackles). That error sucked all of the wind out. The Whitelock slap was the death rattle. I believe I may have used a rude word to describe both Sam and Feigning Faz at the time and it rhymes with shunt. :x


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:31 pm 
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Arguing over a single game like this within the context of Stan's 8 year coaching reign is a little irrelevant...

unless we consider that single game as a metaphor for that career.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:38 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Arguing over a single game like this within the context of Stan's 8 year coaching reign is a little irrelevant...

unless we consider that single game as a metaphor for that career.


Which only the stupid would do.

——

On the tackle Jordie should have twisted his body and angeled himself head first into the turf, taking one for the team even if hurt himself - to give the ABs an advantage. Or just held onto the ball ofcourse.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:42 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
Arguing over a single game like this within the context of Stan's 8 year coaching reign is a little irrelevant...

unless we consider that single game as a metaphor for that career.


Don't be coming in here all high and mighty using reason and common sense and the like.
Not how things are done round here, bloody unnatural. :mad:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:42 pm 
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kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Arguing over a single game like this within the context of Stan's 8 year coaching reign is a little irrelevant...

unless we consider that single game as a metaphor for that career.


Which only the stupid would do.

——

On the tackle Jordie should have twisted his body and angeled himself head first into the turf, taking one for the team even if hurt himself - to give the ABs an advantage. Or just held onto the ball ofcourse.



you're still butthurt, Greg?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:46 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.



No it was his first and only mistake all game.

Sevu Reece made more mistakes than Jordie in the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:47 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
Arguing over a single game like this within the context of Stan's 8 year coaching reign is a little irrelevant...

unless we consider that single game as a metaphor for that career.


Which only the stupid would do.

——

On the tackle Jordie should have twisted his body and angeled himself head first into the turf, taking one for the team even if hurt himself - to give the ABs an advantage. Or just held onto the ball ofcourse.



you're still butthurt, Greg?


Are you asking a question, or using your Aussie accent there GS?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:48 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
My personal moment of deflation was the Whitelock slap. An attacking lineout to defending in our own territory. Sucker punch :(



Mine was the Sevu Reece intercept and then failed offload to give the ball straight back.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:50 pm 
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kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:


you're still butthurt, Greg?


Are you asking a question, or using your Aussie accent there GS?



Says TurramurraGreg :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:51 pm 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.



Best thing he could've done in that tackle was held on to the ball and landed on his back or head. That was a stupid lifting tackle that got bailed out by his shit pass.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:52 pm 
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guy smiley wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:


you're still butthurt, Greg?


Are you asking a question, or using your Aussie accent there GS?



Says TurramurraGreg :lol:


It was your grammar (statement with question) rather than locale..
Fires under control fortunately - appear to be man made 😞


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:07 am 
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Hanson ranks as one of the best, if not the best, All Black coaches ever.
But he definitely had a weakness when his team was reduced to fourteen men.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:07 am 
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kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:


you're still butthurt, Greg?


Are you asking a question, or using your Aussie accent there GS?



Says TurramurraGreg :lol:


It was your grammar (statement with question) rather than locale..
Fires under control fortunately - appear to be man made 😞



Ok, fair call..

good news on the fires, I'll never understand people who deliberately set them.

Back on track...

I was unconvinced about the direction the ABs were going to before the last RWC. I remember complaining in here about disorganised looking play and no consistency with selections. I posted about the same issues repeatedly right through until the build up to this last tournament... I say this to validate my criticsm of Hansen now as not being a knee jerk response to the loss.

that's what I was alluding to with the metaphor comment. I realise many personnel changes were forced on them due to injury and player movement north, I think they did well to cope with that. My concern was always over the style of play... the almost blind insistence on the BB and DMac strategy, playing two individual style players team management roles is the perfect example. The recruitment of Jordie when he'd done nothing to demand an AB call up and continuing to squeeze him into the team regardless of performance or form... the slow erosion of discipline over the years, the selection of Kaino as lock to play the Irish FFS and an apparent shift away from respecting the jersey to an environment where Brett Cameron is a capped All Black.

I see the Hansen reign as a sort of running contingency plan on the fly with results flattering the content, really. What he's left the new coach is a team that don't have that aura* of invincibility about them, something they did have when he took over.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:15 am 
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The Jordie B "offload" was a symptom of the game and how it was going for NZ. Certainly can't blame the outcome on him or any particular player. NZ didn't look like they were in the game let alone going to snatch a win. England were very unlucky they weren't 25+ points ahead by that stage.

In terms of the OP's question, and from my perspective, Hansen always came across as a fairly astute coach in charge of a team of tremendous talent. Would a lesser coach have achieved everything he did with that squad? Probably but not with the same aplomb.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:22 am 
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Sonny Blount wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
CrazyIslander wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Ben Smith wouldn’t have made a difference.

The ABs were only 7 (?) points behind after the Savea try and plenty of time. But immediately after kick off Jordie/Beaudy (?) threw a pass at the back which was knocked on. Ben Smith with his trusted boot would've pinned them back in their own half. The difference between youthful exuberance and steady hand of experience.


It was not from kick off, JB could’ve tried to kick for touch but that had been failing us all game so tried to hold onto the ball. The questionable offload is what is criticised but he got caught in such a dominant tackle a turnover was likely in any case. It was fantastic pressure from England, as they had been doing all night on kick chases.



No it was his first and only mistake all game.

Sevu Reece made more mistakes than Jordie in the game.

Yeah, but we all knew it was coming and we knew it would be crucial.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:29 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
kiwigreg369 wrote:
guy smiley wrote:


you're still butthurt, Greg?


Are you asking a question, or using your Aussie accent there GS?



Says TurramurraGreg :lol:


It was your grammar (statement with question) rather than locale..
Fires under control fortunately - appear to be man made 😞



Ok, fair call..

good news on the fires, I'll never understand people who deliberately set them.

Back on track...

I was unconvinced about the direction the ABs were going to before the last RWC. I remember complaining in here about disorganised looking play and no consistency with selections. I posted about the same issues repeatedly right through until the build up to this last tournament... I say this to validate my criticsm of Hansen now as not being a knee jerk response to the loss.

that's what I was alluding to with the metaphor comment. I realise many personnel changes were forced on them due to injury and player movement north, I think they did well to cope with that. My concern was always over the style of play... the almost blind insistence on the BB and DMac strategy, playing two individual style players team management roles is the perfect example. The recruitment of Jordie when he'd done nothing to demand an AB call up and continuing to squeeze him into the team regardless of performance or form... the slow erosion of discipline over the years, the selection of Kaino as lock to play the Irish FFS and an apparent shift away from respecting the jersey to an environment where Brett Cameron is a capped All Black.

I see the Hansen reign as a sort of running contingency plan on the fly with results flattering the content, really. What he's left the new coach is a team that don't have that aura* of invincibility about them, something they did have when he took over.


You would obviously hope that our new national coach and national coaching team learn from the mistakes and positives over Hansen’s reign, and with their own ideas, builds on the capabilities of the All Blacks to make them even stronger.

The margins are fine and because they are already so good that is tough - but if the mantra around leaving the jersey in a better place is to be lived up to that’s what they have to do.

Steve Hansen and Kieran Read left the jersey in a better place compared to the start of their journey- but at a level lower than they reached in earlier years.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:31 am 
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Thomas wrote:
England were very unlucky they weren't 25+ points ahead by that stage.


Eh...no, that's a bit revisionist IMO. The only real bit of bad luck England had was the second disallowed try (mmmaybe Ardie's try, but that was more a mistake rather than bad luck). They played brilliantly, but honestly almost everything that could go right for them did go right.


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