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Bad people who were actually quite good maybe
http://forum.planetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=92462
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Author:  johnuknow [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Because it doesn't belong in the pics thread.
There are lots of historical figures who died in time or just fell on the right side of history. Others who weren't so lucky.

Who was the best US president? Gave Native Americans right to self determination, signed anti ballistic missile treaty with Russia, launched a national campaign against Cancer and ended the draft among other things.

Take a bow Richard Nixon

Author:  Jay Cee Gee [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Hitler.

He killed Hitler.

Author:  merry! [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Andrew Jackson.

slave owner and ethnic cleanser, but...

he took on the central bankers and beat them.

Author:  dinsdale [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

johnuknow wrote:
Because it doesn't belong in the pics thread.
There are lots of historical figures who died in time or just fell on the right side of history. Others who weren't so lucky.

Who was the best US president? Gave Native Americans right to self determination, signed anti ballistic missile treaty with Russia, launched a national campaign against Cancer and ended the draft among other things.

Take a bow Richard Nixon

And on the minus side, sabotaged peace talks with North Vietnam in order to get elected.

That's an awful lot of deaths to get in to office.

Author:  Caley_Red [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Ian Smith will be judged kindly by history, I suspect.

Author:  Jay Cee Gee [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Caley_Red wrote:
Ian Smith will be judged kindly by history, I suspect.


Really? He was a decent cricketer but his sideline commentary in Rugby is shit.

Author:  Zico [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Alexander Kerensky is not regarded positively by Orangista/Putinists but would have saved millions of lives..possibly.

Author:  Zico [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

In a way this guy has secured Western society from imploding.

Image

Author:  wreckthehouse [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

merry! wrote:
Andrew Jackson.

slave owner and ethnic cleanser, but...

he took on the central bankers and beat them.


An Ulster Scots legend.

Author:  kiwigreg369 [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Owen Farrell.

Author:  Thomas [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Ted Bundy. Apparently worked at a Suicide Hotline and stopped people having suicidal thoughts.

Of course, many psychologists believe this is where he honed his skills in coercion.

Author:  Jensrsa [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Moose Head Prop wrote:
Idi Amin

Against: Ethnic persecution, political repression, extrajudicial executions, and torture. Kept some of his victim's heads in his fridge and ate human body parts.

For: He was a decent Lock.

And he ran the 100m in 9.5 seconds (according to him)

Author:  Tehui [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

The Australian cricket team.

Author:  Thomas [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Tehui wrote:
The Australian cricket team.


Image

Author:  Pat the Ex Mat [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Thomas wrote:
Tehui wrote:
The Australian cricket team.


Image


Didn't you write a story about her?

Author:  Jim Lahey [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Theresa May.

Lets be honest she had absolutely no hope of succeeding and took one for the team.
Plus her dancing cheered up an entire nation.

Author:  AlanBengio [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

johnuknow wrote:
Because it doesn't belong in the pics thread.
There are lots of historical figures who died in time or just fell on the right side of history. Others who weren't so lucky.

Who was the best US president? Gave Native Americans right to self determination, signed anti ballistic missile treaty with Russia, launched a national campaign against Cancer and ended the draft among other things.

Take a bow Richard Nixon


Nixon the best US president ๐Ÿ˜‚
The one who authorized the Presidency to go criminal (in the literal meaning of it - they committed crimes like theft, etc); the one who saw enemies everywhere; the one who betrayed everyone
Now he is the best US president ever
I think I read everything on PR now

Author:  Biffer29 [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

The best ex President the USA has ever had is Jimmy Carter. Mediocre in office, but since then has made a massive positive difference to tens of millions of people across the world.

Author:  johnuknow [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

AlanBengio wrote:
johnuknow wrote:
Because it doesn't belong in the pics thread.
There are lots of historical figures who died in time or just fell on the right side of history. Others who weren't so lucky.

Who was the best US president? Gave Native Americans right to self determination, signed anti ballistic missile treaty with Russia, launched a national campaign against Cancer and ended the draft among other things.

Take a bow Richard Nixon


Nixon the best US president ๐Ÿ˜‚
The one who authorized the Presidency to go criminal (in the literal meaning of it - they committed crimes like theft, etc); the one who saw enemies everywhere; the one who betrayed everyone
Now he is the best US president ever
I think I read everything on PR now



Your not getting the spirit of this.

Perhaps better called people who were good before they were bad? Ie Hitler after he got Germany back on its knees and before all the murder etc

Author:  AlanBengio [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

johnuknow wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
johnuknow wrote:
Because it doesn't belong in the pics thread.
There are lots of historical figures who died in time or just fell on the right side of history. Others who weren't so lucky.

Who was the best US president? Gave Native Americans right to self determination, signed anti ballistic missile treaty with Russia, launched a national campaign against Cancer and ended the draft among other things.

Take a bow Richard Nixon


Nixon the best US president ๐Ÿ˜‚
The one who authorized the Presidency to go criminal (in the literal meaning of it - they committed crimes like theft, etc); the one who saw enemies everywhere; the one who betrayed everyone
Now he is the best US president ever
I think I read everything on PR now



Your not getting the spirit of this.

Perhaps better called people who were good before they were bad? Ie Hitler after he got Germany back on its knees and before all the murder etc


Hitler had been always bad
Like Nixon - who among other things actively pushed for Pinochet in Cile (against a democratic Allende - the only communist president trying to stay democratic because strongly feeling the mandate he receive by free elections) and Vietnam war.
Until Vietnam war was no more useful for his re-election; of course. Because then he betrayed the South Vietnam as well
Nixon is the one who basically established in history the mistrust US has for government in general, even today.

Author:  The Sun God [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

johnuknow wrote:
AlanBengio wrote:
johnuknow wrote:
Because it doesn't belong in the pics thread.
There are lots of historical figures who died in time or just fell on the right side of history. Others who weren't so lucky.

Who was the best US president? Gave Native Americans right to self determination, signed anti ballistic missile treaty with Russia, launched a national campaign against Cancer and ended the draft among other things.

Take a bow Richard Nixon


Nixon the best US president ๐Ÿ˜‚
The one who authorized the Presidency to go criminal (in the literal meaning of it - they committed crimes like theft, etc); the one who saw enemies everywhere; the one who betrayed everyone
Now he is the best US president ever
I think I read everything on PR now



Your not getting the spirit of this.

Perhaps better called people who were good before they were bad? Ie Hitler after he got Germany back on its knees and before all the murder etc


Ah.....I see where you are coming from now.How about prince Andrew, by all accounts not the worst navy officer since Fletcher Christain all the while suppressing certain tendencies..!!.

Author:  lilyw [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Biffer29 wrote:
The best ex President the USA has ever had is Jimmy Carter. Mediocre in office, but since then has made a massive positive difference to tens of millions of people across the world.


Mediocre is far too high a praise for Jimmy Carter. Completely & absolutely out of his depth is a better description.

Out of office - what difference has he actually made? Has he caused a single election to be more fair? A single despot to be overthrown or reined-in?

Author:  blindcider [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

King John - so inept that the magna carta was created limiting the monarchy (His Brother probably fits the opposite description to the thread title)

Oliver Cromwell - other than being a crazily puritanical nutjob who banned anything fun I'm not sure why he is considered a bad guy...

Author:  frillage [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

blindcider wrote:
King John - so inept that the magna carta was created limiting the monarchy (His Brother probably fits the opposite description to the thread title)

Oliver Cromwell - other than being a crazily puritanical nutjob who banned anything fun I'm not sure why he is considered a bad guy...


Thread Irished.

Author:  BokJock [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

kiwigreg369 wrote:
Owen Farrell.


Because he makes watching Sexton and Biggar almost bearable by comparison?

Author:  danny_fitz [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Lieutenant Gorman, inexperienced and indecisive commander, led a disastrous assault on the alien nest before getting incapacitated and losing his command to Hicks. Redeemed himself by assisted in the rescue of Ripley and Newt, performed heroically in the defense of the command centre before sacrificing himself in the rescue of Vasquez.

Author:  Biffer29 [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

lilyw wrote:
Biffer29 wrote:
The best ex President the USA has ever had is Jimmy Carter. Mediocre in office, but since then has made a massive positive difference to tens of millions of people across the world.


Mediocre is far too high a praise for Jimmy Carter. Completely & absolutely out of his depth is a better description.

Out of office - what difference has he actually made? Has he caused a single election to be more fair? A single despot to be overthrown or reined-in?


The most influential thing he has done, through his foundation, is eradicate guinea worm. From 3.5million cases a year in 1986 to about 30 last year. Also very influential in the treatment of river blindness, delivering more than 125 million treatments. Additionally, has provided education and mechanisms to triple crop yields on 8 million small scale farms in sub Saharan africa. Started the process of peace talks with North Korea. Negotiated the reinstatement of the democratically elected Haitian president and prevented an armed conflict there. Negotiated a ceasefire in Sudan. Brokered the deal between Sudan and Uganda. More importantly his foundations work is involved in strengthening democratic institutions, in order to prevent dictators coming to power in the first place - a rather better solution than waiting until the dictator comes to power and then invading the country, Im sure youโ€™ll agree.

And youโ€™re right, he was shit in office. I just find it interesting that heโ€™s accomplished so much more post office than any other president.

Author:  Lemoentjie [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Caley_Red wrote:
Ian Smith will be judged kindly by history, I suspect.


:thumbup:

A 'real' man. One of those guys that could try his hand at anything and be successful. Probably could have played test cricket if he put his mind to it. Read of his work in the WW2.

Not the first to be stabbed in the back by the Brits.

Author:  Dobbin [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Lemoentjie wrote:
Caley_Red wrote:
Ian Smith will be judged kindly by history, I suspect.


:thumbup:

A 'real' man. One of those guys that could try his hand at anything and be successful. Probably could have played test cricket if he put his mind to it. Read of his work in the WW2.

Not the first to be stabbed in the back by the Brits.


Stop turning away when we're talking to you, then.

Author:  tc27 [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Field Marshall Haig.

Author:  massive_field_goal [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Interesting thread. Plenty of good people that were actually bad, hard to find many the other way around.

Some would say Greta Thunberg, but there is a whole other thread for that.

Rupert Murdoch?
Kerry Packer?
Erwin Rommel?
Brandon Chopper Read?
Xi Jinping?
Napoleon?
Genghis Khan?
Alexander the Great?
Joseph Stalin?
Donald Trump?

Author:  mr bungle [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

danny_fitz wrote:
Lieutenant Gorman, inexperienced and indecisive commander, led a disastrous assault on the alien nest before getting incapacitated and losing his command to Hicks. Redeemed himself by assisted in the rescue of Ripley and Newt, performed heroically in the defense of the command centre before sacrificing himself in the rescue of Vasquez.


+1

Author:  tc27 [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Rommel is an interesting one.

Always thought we(the Brits) built him up as leader because we needed an excuse for getting kicked around the North African desert for so long by an inferior force and giving the enemy commander genius status helped us feel better. In reality his decision to invade Libya/Egypt was a mistake which took him too far away from his logistics base and misunderstood the strategic aims of Germany (basically keep the allies tied up in North Africa for as long as possible)

His relationship with Hitler is also interesting - he leveraged his relationship with him to get senior command over the heads of the army brass and only really turned against him when it was clear the war was lost.

Author:  Trostan [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Charlie Haughey

Author:  johnuknow [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Caley_Red wrote:
Ian Smith will be judged kindly by history, I suspect.


I actually thought you were talking about Ian Duncan Smith...who has really no redeeming qualities.

On another level, everybody though Idi Amin was a bumblingly hilarious man of the people at the start. Theres a relevant message in there somewhere.

I always though Jimmy Carter had huge integrity. But it was a bad time to hold the reins and at the end of the day, leadership is 50% timing.

Author:  johnuknow [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Trostan wrote:
Charlie Haughey


A thief ....but one with culture

Author:  comets [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Hitler, sometimes you realise he was just someone trying to do good..but was poorly informed and scapegoated...... same for Gaddafi, Osama and possibly Saddam too...since Trump became POTUS, i have slowly realised a majority of ppl they called bad hombre's weren't actually bad at all.. wondering if it reaches down to hitler as well?

Author:  eldanielfire [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

Richard III. Shakespere ruined his reputation. He was a king for the people

Author:  RodneyRegis [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

blindcider wrote:
King John - so inept that the magna carta was created limiting the monarchy (His Brother probably fits the opposite description to the thread title)

Oliver Cromwell - other than being a crazily puritanical nutjob who banned anything fun I'm not sure why he is considered a bad guy...

Bold strategy...

Author:  croyals [ Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad people who were actually quite good maybe

tc27 wrote:
Field Marshall Haig.

Haig was a good man. His reputation was trashed by hippies in the 60s and Blackadder. His men thought of him as an excellent commander, and the vast majority of scholarly opinion concurs he did the best with the hand he was dealt. The way we perceive WW1 is very far away from what actually happened.

tc27 wrote:
Rommel is an interesting one.

Always thought we(the Brits) built him up as leader because we needed an excuse for getting kicked around the North African desert for so long by an inferior force and giving the enemy commander genius status helped us feel better. In reality his decision to invade Libya/Egypt was a mistake which took him too far away from his logistics base and misunderstood the strategic aims of Germany (basically keep the allies tied up in North Africa for as long as possible)

His relationship with Hitler is also interesting - he leveraged his relationship with him to get senior command over the heads of the army brass and only really turned against him when it was clear the war was lost.

The Rommel myth and the clean Wehrmacht - always great territory for spoofers.

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