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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:19 am 
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I can't take it anymore.

Let LL have the other thread for God sake.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:20 am 
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Not a bad idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:23 am 
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Ned Stark dies :shock: ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:25 am 
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So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:29 am 
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Malahide Mullet wrote:
So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Agreed, the scene in the book is consensual with Cersei only seemingly worried about being discovered in flagrante. Having it as rape changes the dynamic completely. How will they work it later when Cersei sends for help to Jaime when she's arrested by the High Septon?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:31 am 
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Malahide Mullet wrote:
So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.


In the books Jaime has a trajectory where you dislike him quite a bit at the start but start to like him more and more and more as the story goes on. I can't see how he can follow that path now considering he just raped his sister by the body of their dead son. There's no coming back from that. They have fundamentally changed one of the characters in the story.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:35 am 
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So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:37 am 
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No spoilers :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Changes to Jamie :thumbdown:

I love Dany :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:38 am 
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Malahide Mullet wrote:
So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.



Well unless we see something in next episode to make us think she gave in or something, as I said in the other thread he would be back to shoving Bran out the tower and this time people won't sympathise for him and let him grow on them.

Other thing slightly related is I wonder if they will reveal it was Joffrey who actually tried to have Bran murdered after the fall?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:38 am 
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A lot of people involved in the show seem to think it wasn't rape, which is pretty f**king weird. I'm starting to think we might have just seen the shark get jumped.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:39 am 
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Your kind of coloured though.


I mean a TV viewer might view it as a character setback but we're more inclined to say (as we are) writers f**ked up, Jaime is a smashing chap.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:42 am 
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Malahide Mullet wrote:
So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.


FFS, what was he thinking so? How the fudge did he think it didn't look like a rape?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:43 am 
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danthefan wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.


FFS, what was he thinking so? How the fudge did he think it didn't look like a rape?



His missus must be a lucky woman


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:44 am 
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:shock:










:lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:45 am 
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You're a bad man Mullet. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:47 am 
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Its a shame Tywin (along with the Viper mentioned previously) are going to kick it soon. The Viper is class and Tywin, I suspect, will be the best character this season.

And the double act of Arya and the hound needs more airtime


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:48 am 
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Not sure, the Hound thing is starting to drag a bit for me.

Going a bit Riggs and Murtagh.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:48 am 
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covrich wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
So the Director claims it wasn't a rape scene.

Forgetting that a f**king TV programme is not a novel and you can't have an internal monologue saying "In my heart I screamed yes" or some such.

...
Other thing slightly related is I wonder if they will reveal it was Joffrey who actually tried to have Bran murdered after the fall?

That should have been revealed in conversations before the wedding and would have been better coming from or at least strongly implied by Joffrey himself. If they are just going to have Cersei or someone state it in an upcoming episode it could be weakened by assuming the character is lying for their own ends ( in KL everyone lies ).


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:50 am 
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LL is going to get very lonely very quickly over on the spoiler monstrosity of a thread.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 am 
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tabascoboy wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Agreed, the scene in the book is consensual with Cersei only seemingly worried about being discovered in flagrante. Having it as rape changes the dynamic completely. How will they work it later when Cersei sends for help to Jaime when she's arrested by the High Septon?

No, the full passage in the book seems pretty rapey IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:56 am 
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An interview with Alex Graves:

http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of- ... scene.html

Quote:
...
The reason I ask is because many of the people who have read the books are questioning why the scene was changed. As described in the book, told from Jaime’s point of view, Cersei initially resists but quickly gives her consent.
I see, I see. What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.

[Update: George R.R. Martin has now weighed in about the debate on his personal blog. Essentially, he says that it’s unclear in the book scene whether Jaime rapes Cersei or not, as the scene is told from Jaime’s point of view, and is therefore only one side of the story; he also says that he’s unsure what Benioff and Weiss’s intentions might have been in their version, as he never discussed it with them.]

One of my colleagues suggested that the tweak, making Jaime the kind of person who might force himself on Cersei, might have happened to remind viewers that he’s not a morally upright guy, pouring out his heart to Brienne notwithstanding. Was that part of the decision to your knowledge?
No. It’s a very, very complicated scene. The thing about it is that Jaime has come home and is trying to convince himself that things are the same: that he and Cersei are a unit, they’re in love, they have sex, everything comes out of that bond. And he’s desperate to reinvigorate that and it has not been working. That’s part of what’s behind him, that lie he’s telling himself, that seasons two and three didn’t happen. So it’s a last act of stupid clinging to what’s been home for him, because it will never be the same. It’s also setting up something that happens in the finale. For Cersei, she is so blindsided and in the middle of the audacious murder of Joffrey at his own wedding, she’s standing there pondering all this with her other son, her sweet son. And her father comes in and basically says, “There is no way you’re going to have control over this kid” and takes him away. So she’s just empty. She’s decimated. What I said is what we just talked about. It’s just fleshing it out.
...


GRRM himself says the consensuality of the scene in the books is questionable as it's all from Jaime's POV, we don't really know what Cersei makes of it.

I think it was poorly handled because the director claims there's ambiguity there, and in the books there is, as GRRM himself states. In the TV depiction however it is very definitely, unambiguously and obviously portrayed as rape, whether the director intended that to be the case or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:10 pm 
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ElementFreak wrote:
tabascoboy wrote:
Malahide Mullet wrote:
So anyway.

I too think the Jaime rape thing was a huge mistake. Having sex in the Sept is the event that breaks them apart in the books but it does so as the revulsion comes on later. Sets the redemption of Jaime back.

Agreed, the scene in the book is consensual with Cersei only seemingly worried about being discovered in flagrante. Having it as rape changes the dynamic completely. How will they work it later when Cersei sends for help to Jaime when she's arrested by the High Septon?

No, the full passage in the book seems pretty rapey IMO.

Have to disagree on that one...seems like all she'd concerned about is being caught ( then again it is Jaime's POV)

Quote:

JAMIE CHAPTER ASOS
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.
But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this …”


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:12 pm 
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I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:14 pm 
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ZappaMan wrote:
I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.



Do and I'll sow all your scarves together.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:19 pm 
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What a rude shit GRRM is to his fans.
Someone asked him about the rape scene and the way he responds at the beginning and end just shows a lack of class.
Quote:

Apr. 21st, 2014 04:52 pm (UTC)
Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
Hello Mr Martin,
Ludivan wrote:
Could you tell us what you think about the altar sex scene between Jaime and Cersei in last night episode, please ?
Many readers (and viewers) don't understand what happened and why they changed this sex scene into... a rape scene. Does they consult you before doing it ?

Thank you.

PS : Sorry for the bad english, it's not my language.

Absolute fucker responded:

Re: Jaime's changes in Breaker of Chains
This is off topic here. This is the section for comments about Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the Cocteau's author program.

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that.
I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Now, if you please, I'd appreciate it if we could get back to Junot Diaz and Anne Perry and the subjects of the original post.



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:26 pm 
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ZappaMan wrote:
I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.


:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:49 pm 
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That scene where they shot the arrows at Dany and Co was hilarious. Pew pew :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:49 pm 
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ZappaMan wrote:
I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.

THis is now the main thread. The other is for plebs who haven't read the books/like to wibble about spoilers


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:50 pm 
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Cartman wrote:
That scene where they shot the arrows at Dany and Co was hilarious. Pew pew :lol:

And a quite literal pissing contest :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Meanwhile LL logs into the other thread to discuss last nights episode

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:30 pm 
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Chuckles1188 wrote:
A lot of people involved in the show seem to think it wasn't rape, which is pretty f**king weird. I'm starting to think we might have just seen the shark get jumped.


Henceforth known as 'Jumping the Stark'?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:47 pm 
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HighKingLeinster wrote:
No spoilers :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Changes to Jamie :thumbdown:

I love Dany :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany


I was wondering if they'd change his storyline as well to keep him in. He is rather fab.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Image


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:53 pm 
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Shouldn't that read "our" sons corpse?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:54 pm 
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HighKingLeinster wrote:
No spoilers :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Changes to Jamie :thumbdown:

I love Dany :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany

She's meant to be 14 you sick fudge


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:56 pm 
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Aye, and Pod is supposed to be 10. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:58 pm 
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ZappaMan wrote:
I'll merge this with the main GoT thread so.


Very good :lol:

Book scene I recently read again, I didn't read it as rape. Telly scene, definitely she says no, again and again and only stops struggling when he's actually inside her and she's pinned to the ground. And just because your sister gives you a snog doesn't mean you're well in there especially in front of a corpse.


So much better having a proper discussion.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:01 pm 
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earl the beaver wrote:
HighKingLeinster wrote:
No spoilers :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Changes to Jamie :thumbdown:

I love Dany :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Such a shame the Viper wont be in it for long. He is class.






*I love Dany

She's meant to be 14 you sick fudge

I presume you are joking?

I am aware the character in the book is meant to be 14 but the actress who plays here certainly isnt


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:02 pm 
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At least I hope she isn't or all those wanks take on a sinister air.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:07 pm 
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Pfft, Diana Rigg is where it's at.


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