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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Dork Lard wrote:

With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.


That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Nolanator wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Top 14 clubs are notorious for having a Laissez-faire attitude to fitness. It's endemic. Some "anglo" players hire their own PTs to keep their fitness up, as the clubs do fudge all fitness work. Some will aparently have a spread of wine and cheese on the sideline during team runs though, do that's nice :lol:


When Grenoble were promoted to the Top14 a few years ago, Bernard Jackman was involved int he coaching staff and said that they initially had some great results simply by focusing on the S& aspect of the squad. They didn't have the same numbers of marque players as more established Top14 clubs, but their conditioning won them lots of games.

Regarding attitude problems, there also seems to be a weird approach to away games. Players/clubs just don't seem to give a shit if they lose away from home to teams way below them in the league.

Have to say I thought the away game attitude has changed a bit - even the fans travel a bit now.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
I'm agreeing with you. :x
But it won't fix the structural problems:
- unsustainable economic model for nearly every club with the consequent boom and bust for everyone bar Clermont
- too many foreigner journeymen sapping resource, blocking the route for Fre players (esp young ones) and on short contracts to they aren't there long enough to embed or pass on anything useful
- too many games = injuries, tedious rugby etc
- focus on bosh rather than skills from an increasingly earlier age
- corruption throughout

Do I need to continue?

Well let me address those.
- I don't know about the economic model being unsustainable. It's def not ideal, but it seems to be running about the same every year and French players come out every year.
- would be nice to have less foreigners, but the French players are still coming out. As long as there's foreigners AND French talent, fine. And there's a new law on this, you know ?
- yes, too many games (and injuries). That's the most problematic by far. If you've got good talent, but half of it is gone. Uhm... not great.
- yes indeed, but then again France are putting out pretty good ball-handlers and talented offensive players in all lines, and that can be arranged also on the collective level by being less french and more foreign in spirit as we agree: get more foreign coaches in to play proper structured Rugby, the players will fit in that style.
- corruption corruption...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:07 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:

With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.


That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.


I know what you're saying man, but I assure you it really hasn't been a 'chief concern' let's say for France over 6 years. Cardio's not the best, but doesn't constitute an actual problem either. Again it's so much more linked to every player for himself playing heroball, one off individual initiative, than actual cardio issues. If you look at how they defended vs Scotland just that last game they looked more individual than collective, and when you're disorganized as a team you've got to make up for that by being virtually twice as active on both ends (def & off.).

I made a post about this in detail recently, so will just reiterate this part: France trained for 3 months straight before the '15 WC purely on physio and it SURELY wasn't fitness that explained not being competitive vs Ireland and NZ. I mean if you watch the xv de France over 6 yrs, cardio's not been the problem, or through your scope France have not looked clearly worse later in games than in the early stages.
Basically: Fitness isn't the best, but it's certainly far from being a chief problem; it's not like watching Italy as they break down physically, and murtherfore (what ?) the French clubs have at least made the Euro final every year, if not won it. Fr clubs have often run English or Celtic clubs right off the park, each season.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:32 pm 
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pfffff who cares about rugby, france, or whatever, whoever...

seriously, by 50 years, the whole lot of us will be dead and feeding worms or flying in the wind or whatever... but rugby will still be there, or karate-rugby, its evolution, or X-rugby, the new rugby in the X-games, or rugby will be gone, and France too, or not...

... and in 200 years, all the guys making it big in the years 2118s will also be gone, but rugby will still be there, Italy will be world champion, England will have been absorbed by Wales as a country, newly named Waland, and will strugle to beat Belgium in the 8N... and by that time, nobody will ever remember NZ once was a rugby super power, NZ now being known for welcoming millions of Australian climate refugees from desert australia, Children-of-Men-style...

... and then in another 400 years, a f**king comet will crash on earth and kill (almost) all existing living beings... switching earth off for a 10 000 years time...

... and then some new life will develop from the remains of the previous earth, with the dominant species being a mix of a goose and a rhino, with 6 dicks...

... and after another 10 000 years of evolution, this new dominant species will find a military engineered Hyper-M-DISC copy of a VHS of the NSA showing scott gibbs scoring that last second try to deny england the gran slam, and they will invent a new game called "rugibbsy", where goosy 5-dicked (yeah evolution) rhinos will run into each other to score more points than waland, which by the time will be called irewaland as the sea will be gone between these formerly stupid pieces of land floating 10 m away from each other...

... and then, in the year 22 618, who the fùck will care about that bored and the shity france of 2018... surely not the dicky rhinos. All they love is scott gibbs, the messiah.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:37 am 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
nardol wrote:
Stop buying the worlds entire playing base and create your own.

I suspect that will only happen when the money runs out or, more accurately, runs away. :((


It’s been said before that the plight of French Top14 club rugby mirrors that the English Premier League club football. Ultimately neither cater for a production line of world class indigenous international level rugby / football players. The chances of winning international level competitions looks bleak until recruitment policies change.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:58 am 
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Dork Lard wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:

With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.


That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.


I know what you're saying man, but I assure you it really hasn't been a 'chief concern' let's say for France over 6 years. Cardio's not the best, but doesn't constitute an actual problem either. Again it's so much more linked to every player for himself playing heroball, one off individual initiative, than actual cardio issues. If you look at how they defended vs Scotland just that last game they looked more individual than collective, and when you're disorganized as a team you've got to make up for that by being virtually twice as active on both ends (def & off.).

I made a post about this in detail recently, so will just reiterate this part: France trained for 3 months straight before the '15 WC purely on physio and it SURELY wasn't fitness that explained not being competitive vs Ireland and NZ. I mean if you watch the xv de France over 6 yrs, cardio's not been the problem, or through your scope France have not looked clearly worse later in games than in the early stages.
Basically: Fitness isn't the best, but it's certainly far from being a chief problem; it's not like watching Italy as they break down physically, and murtherfore (what ?) the French clubs have at least made the Euro final every year, if not won it. Fr clubs have often run English or Celtic clubs right off the park, each season.



I guess like England you did the wrong of fitness training. A good analysis of where Lancaster went badly wrong with England;s fitness, despite focusin on it is here:

http://the1014.com/eddie-jones-england-fitness/

Quote:

he fitness that Jones requires is entirely different to the fitness regime of the England squad in 2015. The fitness of England in 2015 was abysmal. After their World Cup training camp in Denver, they didn’t look sharp, fit or conditioned. They looked slow, lumbering and incredibly lethargic.

Their Chief Instructor was an ex Royal Marine. And as fit as the Royal Marines are, their training is geared much along the lines that my military training is. Carrying heavy loads over long distances at high speed. This was also combined with heavy weights and traditional strength training to hone their obvious size advantage.

Whilst this is a way to get very fit, which I can attest to. It doesn’t get you rugby fit.

They seemed to train for endurance, rather than intensity. The hours spent doing traditional lifting and gaining mass backfired. It slowed them down. When the games went to a higher tempo in the World Cup, we saw how they struggled, how they unraveled.

This wasn’t just mental fragility, it was confusion about how they wanted to play. As they grew more and more exhausted their decision making went downhill, and they panicked.

The All Blacks know that no team is fitter than them, this adds to their mental fortitude. They know they can go toe to toe with teams, keep in the hunt for 60 minutes, and then outstrip them in the last 20. If the game is already won in the first 60, even better.

The way they do this is by taking the game to another gear. This, in turn, demands a higher intensity form of fitness. A very highly focused cardiovascular and anaerobic fitness emphasis. This is something that Jones has remedied quickly.
Eddie Jones

To state how badly England were conditioned post-2015 you only had to listen to Jones in an interview given in 2017.

When asked how he rated England after the World Cup when he first got hold of them, he stated; “Very poor mate, very poor, I couldn’t believe it, you expect teams like England to be better than Japan and that wasn’t the case. They’d go 20 minutes and have to stop they were so exhausted”. This was in reaction to his training regimen. A regimen that is focused on highly intense, short sharp sessions with 20-second water breaks.

In the early days, they used to be up at 6am every morning for a long run to boost their aerobic capacity. Then they would run their intensive and anaerobic training with their game run-throughs.


May i also say that fitness training itself can be weirdly draining in individuals. I believe Joe Schmitt when it comes to fitness and S&C actually has individual plans for each player because they respond differently to it. Just increasing fitness regimes doesn't always work to make you fitter for the game. Some can leave you fit in the wrong way, some are so intensive your body is just drained and others work for some and not others.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:45 am 
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Every time I read something written about rugby teams and their fitness regimens, I feel like I'm reading fitness blogs by a bunch of random bros who constantly punch their palms while excitedly telling you the 'gains' you're going gain.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:07 am 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Rugby2023 wrote:
Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Many of you will correctly point out that this demise is thoroughly deserved but rugby really needs a healthy and competitive France. Trouble is if it isn't already too late, it will take a generation to make any real changes assuming anyone in charge has the vision or the will.

England have gone from roughly 60% winning ratio under Lancaster, to a 96% winning ratio under Jones.

Improvement can be that immediate and drastic if they can find someone to take it by the balls and immediately set about raising standards.

I don't think that it's an equivalence. The core/roots of English rugby were fine. Lancaster was just out of his depth. It's all in French but to give you and idea of how deep seated the problems and corruption are

http://www.lemonde.fr/rugby/article/201 ... 16937.html?

https://www.20minutes.fr/sport/2213631- ... aporte-ffr

Getting a decent intl coach would improve results (they could not get worse) but it would be papering over the chasms.


But Torque, supposing the following XV fully healthy is the best possible currently for France:
Baille-Guirado-Slimani
Vahaamahina-Iturria
Gourdon-Picamoles-Ollivon(soon Macalou)
Dupont-Lopez
Fofana-Penaud
Nakaitaci-Dulin-Thomas

With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.


I'm agreeing with you. :x
But it won't fix the structural problems:
- unsustainable economic model for nearly every club with the consequent boom and bust for everyone bar Clermont
- too many foreigner journeymen sapping resource, blocking the route for Fre players (esp young ones) and on short contracts to they aren't there long enough to embed or pass on anything useful
- too many games = injuries, tedious rugby etc
- focus on bosh rather than skills from an increasingly earlier age
- corruption throughout

Do I need to continue?

Structural problems still exist in English rugby, as an ideal it's still some way short of central contracting NZRU/IRFU system and there are a glut of injuries prior to every test window. EJ too is papering over some gaps. However, you are right that the problems are no longer as extensive as those of French rugby chiefly imo because the RFU could afford to pay off the clubs with the EPS deal which affords them some modicum of control over the players as well as other EQP targets etc.

I believe this was primarily financed by revenue coming from Twickenham. Iirc the FFR had a similar stadium plan aimed at generating income and they shelved it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:25 am 
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croyals wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Top 14 clubs are notorious for having a Laissez-faire attitude to fitness. It's endemic. Some "anglo" players hire their own PTs to keep their fitness up, as the clubs do fudge all fitness work. Some will aparently have a spread of wine and cheese on the sideline during team runs though, do that's nice :lol:


When Grenoble were promoted to the Top14 a few years ago, Bernard Jackman was involved int he coaching staff and said that they initially had some great results simply by focusing on the S& aspect of the squad. They didn't have the same numbers of marque players as more established Top14 clubs, but their conditioning won them lots of games.

Regarding attitude problems, there also seems to be a weird approach to away games. Players/clubs just don't seem to give a shit if they lose away from home to teams way below them in the league.

Have to say I thought the away game attitude has changed a bit - even the fans travel a bit now.


I could well be out of date with that perception.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:43 am 
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Zakar wrote:
croyals wrote:
France remind me of England circa 2005. It will take a national coach with a big personality and somebody in admin to take on the clubs and they'll be fine. As I keep saying, they're generally losing games by one or two scores, a properly fit team would be winning most of these.


Exactly. They are losing games because they can't handle 80 mins at intl pace. It's not because there are too many foreigners in their leagues. There are double the French players in the Top 14 than there are Aussies in the Soup, and that's not counting ProD2. Player depth isn't the issue.


I believe this is quite right. The Scottish game was a proof of this. The French tried to run the ball and after 20min they started puffing and huffing. After 60min, they lost control totally.

The other issue is a tendency to be weak mentally, with guys trying to save the day on their own and ending up doing silly mistakes and giving away frustrating penalties. But lack of fitness also plays a role there, as tiring players lose control more easily, as they grow frustrated.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:12 am 
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eldanielfire wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:

With a strong bench, could you not take that team and make it well drilled for the first time ever in this current era, and make them seriously competitive ? The cardio had not been a problem during the past 6 years, we never saw France break down physically and it wasn't fatigue but cluelessness that lost them all those games, and if the fitness isn't elite either the guys if anything when they do get tired, get tired because they're playing aimless one-off Rugby where other teams are focused and channel their efforts through the collective.
The players are coming in, every month there's a brand new face, and the U20 are full of interesting young talent, and at club level the French are doing well every year.


That's an out of date perception. Fitness isn't just about not being huffing towards the end of the match. Constantly playing rugby will ensure that. A really good fitness level means during the intense, high workrate sections of the match your brain isn't just focused on getting to the next ruck or waiting for a break in play, but that you are still able to think with clarity, absorb information on the game in front of you, process it and make the right decisions. Basically cluelessness at test level can be largely down to fitness.

Being "well drilled" might resolve some of it, having a series of responses to certain situations helps it, but it doesn't resolve it and doesn't help with dealing with unique situations, broken play, being in a unusual position, adapting to tactics and changes the opposition make as well as surprises. That by far has been a huge part of Eddie Jones success with Japan and England as well as having them well drilled among other things. England today aren't playing the bets ever Rugby I've seen from them, they are however playing some of the cleverest and hardest to beat rugby. They seem to be able to out adapt opponents even when their attack is not firing.


:nod:

Fitness is the number 1 issue.

And this is acknowledged by players and coaches alike. But this is not just a lack of work ethics (though there are some issues there, but this is not the main cause of the lack of fitness in French rugby). Problems with fitness are linked to the short time between the end of the previous season, and the beginning of the next, especially for the internationals who go on tour. Top14 coaches are always working short term and can't prepare properly the teams long term.

One thing that highlights this issue is usually the impressive form of players who come back from injury and had time to condition themselves prior to returning to rugby.


There is also an issue with skills in my opinion. French rugby has been focused too long on beef rather than skills and our players are quite limited for international standards. As a result, we can resist Ireland when they play tight Under the rain, but we don't exist when the rugby starts flowing freely.

Finally, foreign import are an issue but, in my opinion, more in ProD2 and Federale 1 (first amateur level) than in Top14. Indeed, you can understand that Top14 club, where the competition is tight, want to play safe and line up experienced players. But at lower levels, there should be a way to blood youngsters, so that they build plenty of experience before starting playing for the big sides (except of course for the freaks who can get match sheets immediately in Top14).


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:42 pm 
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eldanielfire wrote:

May i also say that fitness training itself can be weirdly draining in individuals. I believe Joe Schmitt when it comes to fitness and S&C actually has individual plans for each player because they respond differently to it. Just increasing fitness regimes doesn't always work to make you fitter for the game. Some can leave you fit in the wrong way, some are so intensive your body is just drained and others work for some and not others.


Thank you for the article, read it whole. I see what you're saying of course, maximizing at the gym won't just make you better conditioned for Rugby. France are surely not the fittest, there's no question. But I don't think it's fitness that lost Eng the pools, I don't think an injury-ravaged Wales side winning in Twickenham was a fitness issue, I don't believe those superb Aussie combinations with Foley and co. slicing through the Eng defense were due to physio (maybe that very last try at the end of the game, but not earlier).

Obviously modern Rugby is so heavily predicated on the physical dimension. Work rate, work rate, work rate. Tackle, get up, tackle, drift, tackle, get up... for eighty minutes. And the Top 14 is not the best influence on players there, and France are not the fittest side. Granted. But the point from the beginning in our particular exchange is: what's the MAIN problem ? As in, if you resolved that one identified problem it would necessarily improve the side heaps and the results immediately go up. If not, that problem was not the main problem, by definition. Well I say to you: improve the fitness, and you do not see the results go up. Improve the coaching, give this side structure and a detailed game plan, get them well drilled for once, and you see the results go up.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Fitness/S&C is just as much a part of coaching as any other aspect of the game. I'm not saying that increasing your bench press will make you better at winning, but you're naive to think that physical preparedness isn't a factor.

Rugby is an continuous explosive contact sport with a mixture of aerobic and anaerobic requirements. If players aren't physically conditioned they'll have more soft tissue injuries, fatigue faster , recover more slowly etc. If you're absolutely shattered, you make bad decisions and your execution of basic skills (tackles, ruck clear outs, passing, kicking, change of pace/direction) suffers.
There's no point in having gameplans and general structure if half the players suffer tweaked hamstrings, their shoulders are still beaten up from last week's game, their legs feel heavy after 20 minutes of play or their lungs are burning after one scrum.

On a more general level, a lack of overall physical "fitness" (note, I don't exclusively mean gym numbers or beep tests) can be part of a wider a cultural issue within a squad. If guys aren't expected to be in the best condition that they can be, it's likely that other elements of their game won't be at maximum standards. If squads are happy to piss around and avoid S&C work and the coaching staff accept it; it's likely that they won't work on set plays and patterns as much and there will be equally poor levels of expectation/accountability as with the fitness work.


Last edited by Nolanator on Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?


Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

You are lazy ***ks :twisted:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?

You are lazy ***ks :twisted:


You said it, not I. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?


Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.


Am from the Mediterranean and if it doesn't require any effort on my part you can add me to your sample. :o


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Work ethics, what the heck is that?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:58 pm 
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We outsource ours to some helpful fellas who do a pre-external audit minesweeping. We know we're OK cos these fellas are a division of the auditors.

We're all huge on ethics so we are.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?


Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Well then in that case I would like to thank you for your fair well articulated response and the effort that was put into it.

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:16 pm 
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Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?


Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Well then in that case I would like to thank you for your fair well articulated response and the effort that was put into it.

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?


My post is clear that I've not linked the two statements.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:15 am 
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Dork Lard wrote:

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?

Depends how you want to define work ethic but yeah, I'll go with that. Same for Afro-Carribeans. "Work ethic" is a loaded, Western economy/cultural term. Afro-Carribeans are more laid back culturally than, say Anglo-Saxons. So, inevitably, when you try and shoe-horn them into Anglo culture, some parts don't perfectly overlap.

FWIW, using terms like "lazy" are just, well, lazy. If you want to get (your definition of) the best out of them in your environment, you have to recognise the cultural differences and adapt. No point whining that you can't get the square peg into the round hole.

And that lead us to France and why France is the misfit in the rugby playing nations. Rugby is an Anglo game and the French are not very good at playing at being Anglos. Laporte came closest to achieving that with any consistency.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:27 am 
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piquant wrote:
handyman wrote:
nardol wrote:
Stop buying the worlds entire playing base and create your own.
No sympathy.

Quite correct.


There must be over 300 French players in the Top14, maybe 350 odd, and probably similar again in D2. How many are we expecting them to supply? Also it's not like they're importing slaves, most players heading to France are surely very happy with their contracts.



go talk to the islanders in those teams..


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Torquemada 1420 wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?

Depends how you want to define work ethic but yeah, I'll go with that. Same for Afro-Carribeans. "Work ethic" is a loaded, Western economy/cultural term. Afro-Carribeans are more laid back culturally than, say Anglo-Saxons. So, inevitably, when you try and shoe-horn them into Anglo culture, some parts don't perfectly overlap.

FWIW, using terms like "lazy" are just, well, lazy. If you want to get (your definition of) the best out of them in your environment, you have to recognise the cultural differences and adapt. No point whining that you can't get the square peg into the round hole.

And that lead us to France and why France is the misfit in the rugby playing nations. Rugby is an Anglo game and the French are not very good at playing at being Anglos. Laporte came closest to achieving that with any consistency.


Yeah, he is a not be trusted either, the crook.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Zakar wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Dork Lard wrote:
Zakar wrote:
Having worked and flatted with people from all parts of the Mediterranean, I'm not suprised that work ethic/fitness is a concern.

Well, what are you trying to say Zakar ?


Just that, from my small sample size, I have found people from the Mediterranean to have a poor work ethic on average. Of course , I've not done extensive research on the subject, and am happy to note that my opinion very well could be based on people not representative of the region as a whole.

I will note, Apropros of nothing, that Mediterranean countries have had recent economic struggles, compared to their northern European neighbours.

Well then in that case I would like to thank you for your fair well articulated response and the effort that was put into it.

Could I ask you since we're on the topic and it's closer to you if you'd make those same comments as an Oceanian about Fijians since they're also doing poorly economically compared to their neighbors the Australians ? Would you say the problem is "a poor work ethic" ?


My post is clear that I've not linked the two statements.


Wow nice backtracking there bro. Don't want to offense any brown person aye. Southern europeans can get ficked though, the lazy white twats.

Very nice.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Not at all. Read my post, it is quite clear.


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