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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:52 am 
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First Nations People / Aboriginal

Why are we failing so bad at successfully integrating first nations people into our society......

Ryan passed away recently..... after 30 years on the streets...

See his video - the beginning....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... TsMTIofG2Q


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:03 am 
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I might not know enough about it, but it seems that the isolated Reserves are worst off compared to those closer to the southern border / urban environments. I appreciate that people want to be in charge of their communities and have the freedoms they enjoy on their lands, but on the other hand, the northern isolated ones are fraught with so many challenges. I grew up near a Reservation in central Ontario that's doing quite well - certainly better than when I was really young and probably with no more issues than any community that size that's reasonably close to a major urban centre with jobs, gets its share of tourism, etc.

I don't think any politician will risk the backlash they'd get by saying that the struggling isolated ones should be shut down, but I also don't see how they can thrive economically in the long run. I'm currently living in a mostly-white, isolated rural community where jobs are scarce and social problems arise from kids who are hungry, bored, don't have a lot of ambition for the future, etc. (The school used to have 1800 kids from 9-13, and now it's down to 600 between 7-12). Is it in the early stages of what's happened to the northern Reservations?

Again, I don't know a ton about the situation on the Reserves apart from short news stories about the worst of them, but it also seems like there have been efforts over the last couple of decades to help provide better facilities, education, healthcare, etc. Is it working? I'm for the spirit of the Reconcilation process, but what I'm not hearing from anyone are concrete practical solutions to remedying all the problems that exist.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:33 am 
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You have to ask, do those reservation communities want to thrive economically or are they happy with subsistence living?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:32 am 
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My inspiration for first nations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlTv3Rd--Kc

Chief Louie is such an amazing guy and has ACCOMPLISHED so much...

Watch the video. Inspiring....

Image


Last edited by moosehead on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:01 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:53 am 
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Nieghorn wrote:
I might not know enough about it, but it seems that the isolated Reserves are worst off compared to those closer to the southern border / urban environments. I appreciate that people want to be in charge of their communities and have the freedoms they enjoy on their lands, but on the other hand, the northern isolated ones are fraught with so many challenges. I grew up near a Reservation in central Ontario that's doing quite well - certainly better than when I was really young and probably with no more issues than any community that size that's reasonably close to a major urban centre with jobs, gets its share of tourism, etc.

I don't think any politician will risk the backlash they'd get by saying that the struggling isolated ones should be shut down, but I also don't see how they can thrive economically in the long run. I'm currently living in a mostly-white, isolated rural community where jobs are scarce and social problems arise from kids who are hungry, bored, don't have a lot of ambition for the future, etc. (The school used to have 1800 kids from 9-13, and now it's down to 600 between 7-12). Is it in the early stages of what's happened to the northern Reservations?

Again, I don't know a ton about the situation on the Reserves apart from short news stories about the worst of them, but it also seems like there have been efforts over the last couple of decades to help provide better facilities, education, healthcare, etc. Is it working? I'm for the spirit of the Reconcilation process, but what I'm not hearing from anyone are concrete practical solutions to remedying all the problems that exist.



I don't agree with framing reconciliation in economic terms.

Take that out of the discussion and then talk.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:12 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Nieghorn wrote:
I might not know enough about it, but it seems that the isolated Reserves are worst off compared to those closer to the southern border / urban environments. I appreciate that people want to be in charge of their communities and have the freedoms they enjoy on their lands, but on the other hand, the northern isolated ones are fraught with so many challenges. I grew up near a Reservation in central Ontario that's doing quite well - certainly better than when I was really young and probably with no more issues than any community that size that's reasonably close to a major urban centre with jobs, gets its share of tourism, etc.

I don't think any politician will risk the backlash they'd get by saying that the struggling isolated ones should be shut down, but I also don't see how they can thrive economically in the long run. I'm currently living in a mostly-white, isolated rural community where jobs are scarce and social problems arise from kids who are hungry, bored, don't have a lot of ambition for the future, etc. (The school used to have 1800 kids from 9-13, and now it's down to 600 between 7-12). Is it in the early stages of what's happened to the northern Reservations?

Again, I don't know a ton about the situation on the Reserves apart from short news stories about the worst of them, but it also seems like there have been efforts over the last couple of decades to help provide better facilities, education, healthcare, etc. Is it working? I'm for the spirit of the Reconcilation process, but what I'm not hearing from anyone are concrete practical solutions to remedying all the problems that exist.



I don't agree with framing reconciliation in economic terms.

Take that out of the discussion and then talk.

I think they can be if not all, then partially framed in economic terms, after all the process worked pretty well in NZ


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:12 am 
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moosehead wrote:
My inspiration for first nations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlTv3Rd--Kc

Chief Louie is such an amazing guy and has ACCOMPLISHED so much...

Watch the video. Inspiring....

Image


Woo, that really is a bad haircut!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:16 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
I think they can be if not all, then partially framed in economic terms, after all the process worked pretty well in NZ


Economic reference should, in my view, come a long way down the discussion table, not at the start. I agree sustainability is important BUT it's a drawback when the discussion starts there... and there's an important distinction to be made between NZ and both Canada and Australia.

Remoteness and distance. They're massive factors in both provision of services and lifestyle on the land.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a sort of 3D topic and economics is 2D.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:22 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I think they can be if not all, then partially framed in economic terms, after all the process worked pretty well in NZ


Economic reference should, in my view, come a long way down the discussion table, not at the start. I agree sustainability is important BUT it's a drawback when the discussion starts there... and there's an important distinction to be made between NZ and both Canada and Australia.

Remoteness and distance. They're massive factors in both provision of services and lifestyle on the land.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a sort of 3D topic and economics is 2D.

Oh yes I agree that it shouldn't be the key driver (hence why I said partially) - and I take your point about NZ v Oz/Can differences - the status system alone in Canada changes the negotiations at the start as does the reservation system.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:23 am 
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Miester wrote:
moosehead wrote:
My inspiration for first nations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlTv3Rd--Kc

Chief Louie is such an amazing guy and has ACCOMPLISHED so much...

Watch the video. Inspiring....

Image


Woo, that really is a bad haircut!




Bad Haircut but super intelligent man.... speaks from the heart and doesn't put up with any bullshi...
Built hotels , golf courses and winery etc..... A real economic vissionary.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:26 am 
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moosehead wrote:
Miester wrote:
moosehead wrote:
My inspiration for first nations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlTv3Rd--Kc

Chief Louie is such an amazing guy and has ACCOMPLISHED so much...

Watch the video. Inspiring....

Image


Woo, that really is a bad haircut!




Bad Haircut but super intelligent man.... speaks from the heart and doesn't put up with any bullshi...
Built hotels , golf courses and winery etc..... A real economic vissionary.

A First Nations Donald Trump? ;).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:28 am 
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In Australia it seems to me that the biggest difficulty has to do with the sheer diversity of our First Nations people. My limited understanding is that they do not see themselves now, or historically, as one nation, they comprise many nations, with many languages.


So one underlying difficulty is that whereas there is one Federal government, there are potentially a significant number of negotiating parties from amongst the First Peoples.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:35 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
In Australia it seems to me that the biggest difficulty has to do with the sheer diversity of our First Nations people. My limited understanding is that they do not see themselves now, or historically, as one nation, they comprise many nations, with many languages.


So one underlying difficulty is that whereas there is one Federal government, there are potentially a significant number of negotiating parties from amongst the First Peoples.

That is true of most systems, and is true of NZ although many outsiders probably think of Maori as one entity.

In my area alone there has been Waitangi Tribunal negotiations on waka (confederation), iwi (tribe, including multiple tribes), hapu (sub tribes) and whanau (family) levels.

The sheer multitude of mobs and distance and federal and state government in Oz might make things slightly more difficult, but I've worked with a bunch of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander mobs up in Far North Queensland who are able to play together well (and some of course who don't).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:40 am 
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I really doubt that our situation in terms of diversity is "slightly" more difficult. What other causes are there for our inability to make progress. Money has not been a problem, most of the non-indigenous population is well disposed towards our indigenous brethren, and we desperately want to see progress on all fronts.


If there is a simple solution, what the fark is it?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:41 am 
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Perhaps because it’s usually simply assimilation which is deadly to indigenous.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:45 am 
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No sweet anecdotes from your time in Redfern bro?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:55 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
I really doubt that our situation in terms of diversity is "slightly" more difficult. What other causes are there for our inability to make progress. Money has not been a problem, most of the non-indigenous population is well disposed towards our indigenous brethren, and we desperately want to see progress on all fronts.


If there is a simple solution, what the fark is it?


You could ask Malcolm Turnbull why he rejected that very thing last year. (google Uluru statement)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:58 am 
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maxbox wrote:
No sweet anecdotes from your time in Redfern bro?



Seems ages ago .

And frankly a little depressing .


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:02 am 
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moosehead wrote:
First Nations People / Aboriginal

Why are we failing so bad at successfully integrating first nations people into our society......

Ryan passed away recently..... after 30 years on the streets...

See his video - the beginning....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... TsMTIofG2Q

Trudeau's government is more concerned about pronouns and feminists.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:53 am 
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badmannotinjapan wrote:
moosehead wrote:
First Nations People / Aboriginal

Why are we failing so bad at successfully integrating first nations people into our society......

Ryan passed away recently..... after 30 years on the streets...

See his video - the beginning....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... TsMTIofG2Q

Trudeau's government is more concerned about pronouns and feminists.



Yep, dealing with real problems is difficult and doesn't get you that sweet, sweet social media PR.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Here's one of the most desperate places ...

https://globalnews.ca/news/3373928/1-ye ... resources/

... and a short article that doesn't focus so much on the problems but shows a balanced look at life there: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/attawapis ... -1.3537520

There are a lot of young people in these places and the suicide rate is much higher than anywhere else in Canada. Six times as much for FN people, 11 times for Inuit. They can bring in more services to help treat, but what are the reasons for it and the higher rates of substance abuse? Conditions obviously play a huge role, but I also wonder if youth are experiencing what kids everywhere are - the 'fear of missing out' phenomenon via social media that is contributing to depression. I just wonder if everyone had a nice home and there was a full set of facilities, would that be enough? These become handouts given the current state of things and the lack of jobs, so how sustainable is this solution?

I've more questions than answers - I'm not an expert. But as I said earlier, every time I read something on this I just don't see what the long term fix is. Acknowledging wrongs of the past and establishing a firm sense of culture and identity has already started, and in many places is firmly established (they had Native Studies and language courses at my high school way back in the 90s, lots of cultural festivals ... but I did live near a relatively well-off Reservation). Where we go next as a nation seems to be something that's been dragging on for at least 20 years.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:46 pm 
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This is complex one but economic reparations and independence (or at least self determination or control of resources) is the bedrock. Nothing else can happen without it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:09 pm 
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In Australia the situation is enormously complex. A significant minority of our First Peoples want to live on their traditional lands, for spiritual and other personal reasons. The biggest problem is that those traditional lands cannot support a modern lifestyle, and it is hugely expensive (if not impossible in practical terms) for governments to subsidise a "modern" lifestyle for every tiny community which want to remain living this way, particularly when the costs of, for example, providing and more significantly, maintaining housing is taken into account. Let alone health care, education, within a reasonable distance, etc etc.

On top of this, modernity has brought alcohol with it. Those of us who live in the middle of modernity can find it difficult to cope with alcohol. People who are living in relative poverty can find it bloody impossible.


These two problems alone would be enough, of course there are many, many more.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:30 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
In Australia the situation is enormously complex. A significant minority of our First Peoples want to live on their traditional lands, for spiritual and other personal reasons. The biggest problem is that those traditional lands cannot support a modern lifestyle, and it is hugely expensive (if not impossible in practical terms) for governments to subsidise a "modern" lifestyle for every tiny community which want to remain living this way, particularly when the costs of, for example, providing and more significantly, maintaining housing is taken into account. Let alone health care, education, within a reasonable distance, etc etc.

On top of this, modernity has brought alcohol with it. Those of us who live in the middle of modernity can find it difficult to cope with alcohol. People who are living in relative poverty can find it bloody impossible.


These two problems alone would be enough, of course there are many, many more.


And there are, unfortunately, a significant number of high-profile native advocates who filter the money through their organisations and siphon off a huge amount.

They are not really interested in changing the status quo


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:46 am 
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Pat the Ex Mat wrote:

And there are, unfortunately, a significant number of high-profile native advocates who filter the money through their organisations and siphon off a huge amount.

They are not really interested in changing the status quo



Not to mention the assorted carpetbaggers, overpaid civil servants supervising each other, not to mention all those Toyota Landcruisers that they needed to drive around inspecting each others bumholes or whatever they do.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:57 am 
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moosehead wrote:
Why are we failing so bad at successfully integrating first nations people into our society......

That could be a large part of your problem right there. Working out what a joint society respecting each other's values and traditions might look like, and how the land and other treasures might be reasonably shared, and then both moving towards that might have more success.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:01 am 
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wamberal99 wrote:
Pat the Ex Mat wrote:

And there are, unfortunately, a significant number of high-profile native advocates who filter the money through their organisations and siphon off a huge amount.

They are not really interested in changing the status quo



Not to mention the assorted carpetbaggers, overpaid civil servants supervising each other, not to mention all those Toyota Landcruisers that they needed to drive around inspecting each others bumholes or whatever they do.


Yup - sadly, all fodder for the One Nation voters as well.....

A vicious circle


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:38 am 
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Santa wrote:
This is complex one but economic reparations and independence (or at least self determination or control of resources) is the bedrock. Nothing else can happen without it.

Exactly. To say that it shouldn't be in economic terms is ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:43 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I think they can be if not all, then partially framed in economic terms, after all the process worked pretty well in NZ


Economic reference should, in my view, come a long way down the discussion table, not at the start. I agree sustainability is important BUT it's a drawback when the discussion starts there... and there's an important distinction to be made between NZ and both Canada and Australia.

Remoteness and distance. They're massive factors in both provision of services and lifestyle on the land.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a sort of 3D topic and economics is 2D.


I believe one relevant economic point of reference is the absence from too many remote indigenous communities of a local economy that isn't wholly and solely reliant on those indigenous persons' existence in those places as welfare recipients.

Disregarding for a moment the effects on kids of the social turmoil can bedevil remote communities, what are those kids meant to do when they wake one fine morning, kids no longer, and find themselves in a place where jobs are as rare as rocking-horse shit? Freshly-minted young adults who want to work or study further and who have the personal requisites to either (or both) are faced with the choice of leaving their family, friends and country or staying and...what?

They deserve much better choices.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:30 am 
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MungoMan wrote:
guy smiley wrote:
UncleFB wrote:
I think they can be if not all, then partially framed in economic terms, after all the process worked pretty well in NZ


Economic reference should, in my view, come a long way down the discussion table, not at the start. I agree sustainability is important BUT it's a drawback when the discussion starts there... and there's an important distinction to be made between NZ and both Canada and Australia.

Remoteness and distance. They're massive factors in both provision of services and lifestyle on the land.

I guess what I'm saying is this is a sort of 3D topic and economics is 2D.


I believe one relevant economic point of reference is the absence from too many remote indigenous communities of a local economy that isn't wholly and solely reliant on those indigenous persons' existence in those places as welfare recipients.

Disregarding for a moment the effects on kids of the social turmoil can bedevil remote communities, what are those kids meant to do when they wake one fine morning, kids no longer, and find themselves in a place where jobs are as rare as rocking-horse shit? Freshly-minted young adults who want to work or study further and who have the personal requisites to either (or both) are faced with the choice of leaving their family, friends and country or staying and...what?

They deserve much better choices.


Absolutely... I think we have it arse about talking reconciliatiopn though when that means moving into white fella's world. Jobs, income etc... yeah, we're in a modern world etc but when you have communities in WA being forced to close and move off country because the govt has decided they can't afford 'services' that in many cases they're happier without. Health provision is an obvious exception there... and that's a big issue in remote communities.

There's another side to that too... the so called Work For the Dole scheme sees a disproportionate number of indigenous heavily penalised and blocked for minor breaches compared to city folk. The way it's set up and working is institutionalised racism. Then there's the monopoly supply of goods on the cashless welfare cards and the rorting of that that's rife...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:19 am 
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Sometimes the monopoly supplier is one of their own. As for the supply of government services to remote communities, imagine the outcry if a remote community was left without essential services, and something bad happened.


I have to say that it seems to me that our indigenous sisters and brothers do have to be willing to take the best of our world, while preserving the best of their world, but there will have to be compromises both ways. And they have to be willing to take full responsibility for maintaining infrastructure which is provided in remote communities.

And when there are compromises, there is plenty of room for vested interests, shock jocks, carpetbaggers, and, sadly, scammers from within the indigenous communties to make mischief.


This is a very complex, multi-faceted, set of problems, with plenty of opportunities for mischief making of all kinds.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:41 pm 
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I imagine that complexity is why the legal handover / negotiation process is taking so long here. I don't imagine any politician wants to keep First Nations Reservations like they did in the old days, with no self-determination and exploit any resources they have. If they just say 'here' and turn it all over, some will have the potential to thrive, while others will have the potential to fail, as it would for any business. Plenty of places will have natural resources that can be tapped into, but some are bound to dry up quickly while others would take ages to replace.

It's the same in any non-FN community down south - lots of mining towns and other single-resource areas have dropped in population or become ghost towns. Where I live has two reservations not far away that have no major industry (that I know of... where I grew up has a large casino that employs a lot of people), but there are stores, gas stations, etc that draw off-reserve people and generate income.

There's also the challenge between generating business through resources and a large chunk of those communities taking pride in traditional notions of land stewardship. Where I grew up, some FN entrepreneurs wanted to start a business using a plot of reserve land to be a landfill site for waste that a large urban centre had overflowing... but it was eventually shot down by those with environmental concerns. Same has happened with mineral and oil extraction. Those are the hard decisions that communities will have to make if they're going to grow and be self-sustainable.


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