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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:09 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
I’ve still got faith in Edward though, for the record. I may think his back row is batshit but overall he’s still going well.



Personally think the reactions from some are a bit bizarre - we are nowhere near the bad days of Robinson, Johnson, Ashton ETC in terms of overall performances and results.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:15 pm 
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zzzz wrote:
Don't get all this "we got turned over at the breakdown, so need a proper 7" nonsense.

A good 7 can't defend your own ball. That's about changing your pod system and playing narrower.


That's just wrong really.

Check out around 29.48 in the Scotland game. Scrum, ball goes to Ford who sees space and attacks. Barclay (who was playing openside a the time), gets off the scrum, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, clear release and latches on, then Robshaw get's there and fails to move him. A proper 7 preferably just gets to Ford first, preventing any hands in the ruck, or at worst, actually clears Barclay out whilst he's getting back to his feet, Scotland win an easy pen. Similar from set piece at around 36.27, though not sure if that was a pen in the end. Robshaw just isn't quick enough. Put him at 6 where it's far less of an issue, and his strengths are supported far more.

A good 7 should not only be doing this for set piece, but for breaks as well, reading the play and getting into position. Hask had a good example of this for the lions, when the Lions broke, made 60m, and the opposition 7 got over the ball, but Hask basically cleared out the 7 and the tackled player in one huge hit. Hask is far from rounded, and we should be looking to move on, but he's an absolutely fabulous example of how a 7 can be influential in winning your own ball consistently at key times.

Should the rest of the pack be working well? Of course, but Lawes is not good at the breakdown, and putting him in the loose forwards just makes that even more noticeable, since it denies England of what would normally be a more accomplished breakdown worker there.

Can the system be adapted to make up for our lack of ability and poor selection? To a degree yes, but not for those set pieces or scrums!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:16 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
If he’s trained at 15 this week he may be more settled? Wonder how brown will cope as a dirtracker, he’s reputed to be a bit of an arsehole.


Is he? His reputation appears to be that he's a lovely and chilled out guy when he's not playing a game of rugby.


You hear that, I hear otherwise- maybe he’s in between.


Yeah, but I hear it both from the public stuff people say and what someone who played a lot of matches with him says.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Don't get all this "we got turned over at the breakdown, so need a proper 7" nonsense.

A good 7 can't defend your own ball. That's about changing your pod system and playing narrower.


That's just wrong really.

Check out around 29.48 in the Scotland game. Scrum, ball goes to Ford who sees space and attacks. Barclay (who was playing openside a the time), gets off the scrum, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, clear release and latches on, then Robshaw get's there and fails to move him. A proper 7 preferably just gets to Ford first, preventing any hands in the ruck, or at worst, actually clears Barclay out whilst he's getting back to his feet, Scotland win an easy pen. Similar from set piece at around 36.27, though not sure if that was a pen in the end. Robshaw just isn't quick enough. Put him at 6 where it's far less of an issue, and his strengths are supported far more.

A good 7 should not only be doing this for set piece, but for breaks as well, reading the play and getting into position. Hask had a good example of this for the lions, when the Lions broke, made 60m, and the opposition 7 got over the ball, but Hask basically cleared out the 7 and the tackled player in one huge hit. Hask is far from rounded, and we should be looking to move on, but he's an absolutely fabulous example of how a 7 can be influential in winning your own ball consistently at key times.

Should the rest of the pack be working well? Of course, but Lawes is not good at the breakdown, and putting him in the loose forwards just makes that even more noticeable, since it denies England of what would normally be a more accomplished breakdown worker there.

Can the system be adapted to make up for our lack of ability and poor selection? To a degree yes, but not for those set pieces or scrums!




Actually, a proper 7 would have cheated and ran across, pulled back Barclay, done whatever required to regain the advantage lost from being slow off the scrum.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:52 pm 
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Raggs you clearly haven't been handed the England rugby supporter guidebook on how to deal with getting beat at the breakdown - the order of blame is as follows

1. The ref on the day
2. The reffing in the Premiership
3. Anyone in the tight five who had a bad game
4. Anyone in the backline who had a bad game
5. The Premiership for picking too many foreign 7s
6. The Premiership for not picking any 7s at all
7. Our age-grade sides for not producing any 7s
8. Tom Rees for retiring so early


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:57 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
If he’s trained at 15 this week he may be more settled? Wonder how brown will cope as a dirtracker, he’s reputed to be a bit of an arsehole.


Is he? His reputation appears to be that he's a lovely and chilled out guy when he's not playing a game of rugby.


You hear that, I hear otherwise- maybe he’s in between.


Yeah, but I hear it both from the public stuff people say and what someone who played a lot of matches with him says.

Yeah but I hear it from players that aren’t quins.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Don't get all this "we got turned over at the breakdown, so need a proper 7" nonsense.

A good 7 can't defend your own ball. That's about changing your pod system and playing narrower.


That's just wrong really.

Check out around 29.48 in the Scotland game. Scrum, ball goes to Ford who sees space and attacks. Barclay (who was playing openside a the time), gets off the scrum, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, clear release and latches on, then Robshaw get's there and fails to move him. A proper 7 preferably just gets to Ford first, preventing any hands in the ruck, or at worst, actually clears Barclay out whilst he's getting back to his feet, Scotland win an easy pen. Similar from set piece at around 36.27, though not sure if that was a pen in the end. Robshaw just isn't quick enough. Put him at 6 where it's far less of an issue, and his strengths are supported far more.

A good 7 should not only be doing this for set piece, but for breaks as well, reading the play and getting into position. Hask had a good example of this for the lions, when the Lions broke, made 60m, and the opposition 7 got over the ball, but Hask basically cleared out the 7 and the tackled player in one huge hit. Hask is far from rounded, and we should be looking to move on, but he's an absolutely fabulous example of how a 7 can be influential in winning your own ball consistently at key times.

Should the rest of the pack be working well? Of course, but Lawes is not good at the breakdown, and putting him in the loose forwards just makes that even more noticeable, since it denies England of what would normally be a more accomplished breakdown worker there.

Can the system be adapted to make up for our lack of ability and poor selection? To a degree yes, but not for those set pieces or scrums!

As we keep saying, you can’t do much about lack of pace. Doesn’t matter how effective you are if you don’t get there.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:02 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
If he’s trained at 15 this week he may be more settled? Wonder how brown will cope as a dirtracker, he’s reputed to be a bit of an arsehole.


Is he? His reputation appears to be that he's a lovely and chilled out guy when he's not playing a game of rugby.


You hear that, I hear otherwise- maybe he’s in between.


Yeah, but I hear it both from the public stuff people say and what someone who played a lot of matches with him says.

Yeah but I hear it from players that aren’t quins.


England players?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Scrummie wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Scrummie wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Teo OK, not convinced but I can see the benefit. Watson OK, need someone to get time in the shirt, Daly - just hope he's match ready - he's our best back.

But Fck knows what's with Eddie and the back row - it's just madness - they were awful v the Scots and aren't going to, suddenly, become an international quality unit - even if they manage to do enough against France.

At least he's had to give George a start, so there'll be a little more pace in the pack.


I remain, utterly unconvinced about Eddie. We've made zero progress in the last 18 months and there's precious few signs that he is acknowledging/tackling the real problems in the team.

Another loss would be no bad thing.


24 wins from 26. Wow you’re a tough on to please.



Do you think we're a better team now than we were 18 months ago ??????

Do you think we're on track to win the RWC ?????


Yes and getting there.


You must be watching a different England side than I am.

This side is not as good as the side that won the GS. And it has significant weaknesses that don't appear to have been addressed.

We can't just rely on BV to come back and make a huge difference.

I'm not saying we're rubbish, we're still a good side, I just don't see how the side has really developed since the GS.


Last edited by ovalball on Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:10 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:

England players?


What is this- top trumps?

You hear he’s a great guy, I hear he’s a bit of an arsehole.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:16 pm 
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DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:

England players?


What is this- top trumps?

You hear he’s a great guy, I hear he’s a bit of an arsehole.


Just trying to establish if they're people who would actually know. You seem to want to dismiss the opinions of people who spend the most time with him but your anonymous and undefined mates seem to be all knowing.

Like the idea that he's a good bloke off the field is pretty much the default opinion so if you're going against the grain I guess you need a little bit to back it up. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, just curious as it runs directly opposite to what I've heard publicly and privately from those who know him.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:23 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Like the idea that he's a good bloke off the field is pretty much the default opinion so if you're going against the grain I guess you need a little bit to back it up. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, just curious as it runs directly opposite to what I've heard publicly and privately from those who know him.



Why do you think the default opinion is that off the pitch we all think he's a good bloke? On the pitch, he's a chippy dickhead.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:24 pm 
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From people in the game, not random morons on forums and social media.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:25 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
From people in the game, not random morons on forums and social media.




How do you get time to speak with people in the game as well as to random morons?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Chips wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
From people in the game, not random morons on forums and social media.




How do you get time to speak with people in the game as well as to random morons?


It's weird that people in the game never say anything that finds its way to the public. Total radio silence.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:36 pm 
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Anyway, back to the selection over everyone's favourite Aunt Sally.

Bit surprised Mako starts, he hasn't been tearing up trees and his scrummaging against some whacking great French props raises concerns.

George, here's your big chance, show us your skillz.

Backrow clusterfuck. Robshaw at blindside, Hughes plus whoever is fittest out of Hask and Simmons looks a lot better balanced.

JJ has been way off his best but I worry about Te'o's rush with left monster doglegs against Italy. I suppose Jones is looking to fight fire with fire against White Nonu.

I think he is easing Brown out but I also don't think he entirely trusts Watson at full back. However, if Daly has any kind of match fitness that gives a balance with his smarts, Watson's pace (which I still think is better used on the wing) and May's tombola of pace and brain injury.

Bench looks good.

France by 20.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:44 pm 
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This isn't the game I'd drop Brown to the bench for. I can just about make an argument for the three locks selection against France but I'd rather Haskell at 7 than Robshaw. I genuinely think England will lose because Scotland exposed some fundamental flaws in our game which France are more than capable of exploiting.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:46 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Chips wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
From people in the game, not random morons on forums and social media.




How do you get time to speak with people in the game as well as to random morons?


It's weird that people in the game never say anything that finds its way to the public. Total radio silence.




Weirder still that what they didn't say then didn't get quoted in here by his fanbois.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:49 pm 
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:uhoh:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:50 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:

England players?


What is this- top trumps?

You hear he’s a great guy, I hear he’s a bit of an arsehole.


Just trying to establish if they're people who would actually know. You seem to want to dismiss the opinions of people who spend the most time with him but your anonymous and undefined mates seem to be all knowing.

Like the idea that he's a good bloke off the field is pretty much the default opinion so if you're going against the grain I guess you need a little bit to back it up. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, just curious as it runs directly opposite to what I've heard publicly and privately from those who know him.


I've met him 3 times, once he was an arse and the other two times quite nice. From what I've also heard he likes to play up to his grumpy persona but is actually a quiet, chilled out bloke who is a bit shy.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:52 pm 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
May's tombola of pace and brain injury.



:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:07 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
DragsterDriver wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:

England players?


What is this- top trumps?

You hear he’s a great guy, I hear he’s a bit of an arsehole.


Just trying to establish if they're people who would actually know. You seem to want to dismiss the opinions of people who spend the most time with him but your anonymous and undefined mates seem to be all knowing.

Like the idea that he's a good bloke off the field is pretty much the default opinion so if you're going against the grain I guess you need a little bit to back it up. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, just curious as it runs directly opposite to what I've heard publicly and privately from those who know him.

I appreciate he may well have taken a selfie with you and signed something at the supporters club- that’s cool. Not everybody has the same experience, it’s ok to be different.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:28 pm 
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I've never spoken to him, I think. I don't think it's outrageous to ask whether your sources would be people who'd actually know. No need to be a dick about it.

You thought he might be a problem child having been dropped, so people who've been around him in team environments would be a good source.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:16 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
I remain, utterly unconvinced about Eddie. We've made zero progress in the last 18 months and there's precious few signs that he is acknowledging/tackling the real problems in the team. Another loss would be no bad thing.

This is outright madness oval. :)

Raggs wrote:
Wonder if Eddie has decided that the 6N is basically gone, and is now trying to move a few small things forwards.

I bloody hope not. Quitters never win (unless they're smokers of course). Need to chase the 5 pointer and try to ramp up a big scoreline.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:24 pm 
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matta25 wrote:
After Eddie's bizarre rant to the press about how outstanding Mike Brown has been for 24 games, he gets dropped.

He's not very good in attack any more. Wet or not, England need to score tries and Watson is probably the likelier.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:27 pm 
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I also had to laugh at Mako as vice captain - there's literally two club captains in that pack, as well as Lawes, Itoje and George who all have club captaincy experience and yet he goes for the least captain-y option of the lot


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:27 pm 
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The fear is we diminish our best winger by moving him to fullback, where he's been a bit meh at international level so far. Hope he really goes for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:28 pm 
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openclashXX wrote:
I also had to laugh at Mako as vice captain - there's literally two club captains in that pack, as well as Lawes, Itoje and George who all have club captaincy experience and yet he goes for the least captain-y option of the lot


Only one club captain, no? Fair point nonetheless, might just be an attempt to get more out of him.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Scrummie wrote:
ovalball wrote:
Teo OK, not convinced but I can see the benefit. Watson OK, need someone to get time in the shirt, Daly - just hope he's match ready - he's our best back.

But Fck knows what's with Eddie and the back row - it's just madness - they were awful v the Scots and aren't going to, suddenly, become an international quality unit - even if they manage to do enough against France.

At least he's had to give George a start, so there'll be a little more pace in the pack.


I remain, utterly unconvinced about Eddie. We've made zero progress in the last 18 months and there's precious few signs that he is acknowledging/tackling the real problems in the team.

Another loss would be no bad thing.



24 wins from 26. Wow you’re a tough on to please.


Depends on the spin one wants. We've won 24/26, or we've lost 2 out of the last 4 6N games.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:35 pm 
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Raggs wrote:
zzzz wrote:
Don't get all this "we got turned over at the breakdown, so need a proper 7" nonsense.

A good 7 can't defend your own ball. That's about changing your pod system and playing narrower.


That's just wrong really.

Check out around 29.48 in the Scotland game. Scrum, ball goes to Ford who sees space and attacks. Barclay (who was playing openside a the time), gets off the scrum, tackles Ford, get's back to his feet, clear release and latches on, then Robshaw get's there and fails to move him. A proper 7 preferably just gets to Ford first, preventing any hands in the ruck, or at worst, actually clears Barclay out whilst he's getting back to his feet, Scotland win an easy pen. Similar from set piece at around 36.27, though not sure if that was a pen in the end. Robshaw just isn't quick enough. Put him at 6 where it's far less of an issue, and his strengths are supported far more.

A good 7 should not only be doing this for set piece, but for breaks as well, reading the play and getting into position. Hask had a good example of this for the lions, when the Lions broke, made 60m, and the opposition 7 got over the ball, but Hask basically cleared out the 7 and the tackled player in one huge hit. Hask is far from rounded, and we should be looking to move on, but he's an absolutely fabulous example of how a 7 can be influential in winning your own ball consistently at key times.

Should the rest of the pack be working well? Of course, but Lawes is not good at the breakdown, and putting him in the loose forwards just makes that even more noticeable, since it denies England of what would normally be a more accomplished breakdown worker there.

Can the system be adapted to make up for our lack of ability and poor selection? To a degree yes, but not for those set pieces or scrums!


Moving beyond your cruel observations of yesterday I actually agree with much of this, which mayn't surprise. It is odd actually that we're insisting on putting out some slower less mobile players and asking them to then play a hard game to support, though that doesn't really apply to our own bloody scrum ball.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:36 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
The fear is we diminish our best winger by moving him to fullback, where he's been a bit meh at international level so far. Hope he really goes for it.


He was only our best winger while Daly was out.

As long as he handles the high ball well, and gets into position, he'll get plenty of chances to get involved in attacks - potentially it's a very dangerous back three. Probably the quickest we've had for many years.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:43 pm 
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My main concern with Watson at 15 is much like Brown he doesn't actually link the play between the 13 and the wings. We'll have a lot of pace available to us if only we can work out how to actually use it. We'll get options on the counter attack perhaps more than our own attack, especially with them lacking some pace and mobility at 13, which might be a similar issue to them as our 14 taking up some interesting positions in defence (especially now he's working with a new 13)


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:44 pm 
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JM2K6 wrote:
Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


Given the choice, I'd take Daly. Just as good in attack, better defender/tackler, harder to bring down, passes better. He'd also, most likely, be a better FB than Watson. Just a better, all round, player.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:53 pm 
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ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


Given the choice, I'd take Daly. Just as good in attack, better defender/tackler, harder to bring down, passes better. He'd also, most likely, be a better FB than Watson. Just a better, all round, player.



Daly is one of the best players in the world.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:02 pm 
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Brendan Venter has left LI. Looks like Declan Kidney and Les Kiss will be announced next week in some capacity.

Not sure what the future structure will be and which coaches are being retained


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:03 pm 
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England Bench definitely looks better this week. Some proper impact with Simmons, LCD and Sinkler there.

Big chance for George. Needs to bring his A game and make a statement


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Maybe the lack of dynamism at the breakdown can be countered by a more conservative attacking forward pattern of 1-3-3-1 with a big focus in training on clearing our those rucks more aggressively (easier to do if you the first man in a three man pod and know others can secure the ball once you have blasted through).


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:07 pm 
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mr flaps wrote:
ovalball wrote:
JM2K6 wrote:
Watson is a better winger than Daly, who is a fine player in his own right but doesn't have Watson's ability in the air and Watson has the edge for tight finishing. Happy to have them both ahead of May, though.

Watson has played fullback for England before, hence my caution. He's been a bit of a no show.


Given the choice, I'd take Daly. Just as good in attack, better defender/tackler, harder to bring down, passes better. He'd also, most likely, be a better FB than Watson. Just a better, all round, player.



Daly is one of the best players in the world.


He's also got a far better boot than Watson.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:10 pm 
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How much can we really expect from Daly in this match, he hasn't played rugby in months. Not sure who else was available but you'd think a fit, in-form player would fare better. Expected a muted game from him tbh.


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