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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:01 pm 
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boringperson12 wrote:
They say you need to be in a calorific surplus to add muscle, so will depend on how many calories an individual burns.


... well, sort of. I guess ultra-strictly speaking, any calories that go towards building new muscle are "burned" and not "surplus". Any "surplus", in any situation whatsoever, will go to fat; it's the definition of "surplus".

That catch is that it's just silly to try and estimate what the exact calorie requirement is for fueling your workout and providing the energy to build new muscle (and that's assuming your macro-nutrients, etc. are also bang-on). Much easier and more effective to just over-estimate it by a bit and be sure you're getting enough.

I think the prevailing wisdom (certainly what I do and always have prescribed to), is just accept that if you're going to be 100% sure that you're eating enough and getting enough energy and nutrient to be optimally putting on muscle, you're going to have to live with putting on at-least a little bit of fat at the same time (and strictly speaking, that fat does actually come from "surplus" calories), and if you're not putting on at-least a smidgen of fat, you're almost certainly not eating enough to put on muscle optimally. In fact, a lot of people in this situation are simply not eating enough to put it on at all. They're eating a moderately increased calorie intake, which is enough just to power them through their increased workload, but not enough to effectively power the body's muscle building, so they're basically just running on the spot and going around telling everyone they're "hard gainers".

Weight loss and weight gain have one thing very much in common: people who complain their calorie deficit/surplus diet magically doesn't work for them are always either underestimating how much they are eating or underestimating how much they need to eat (depending on their goal, obviously).


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 pm 
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Clive Simms wrote:
What do people think is the target daily calorie intake if you're looking to put on muscle. I've seen some people say 2500 is enough so long as you reach at least 150g of protein while some people say minimum 3500 calories or don't bother?


You’ll need to know your maintenance calories before knowing how many calories you need to put some weight on.

I would say a good starting figure is about 300 to 500 calories above maintenance to start and the monitor fortnightly . If you’re getting too fat too quickly lower and if you’re not putting weight on add some.

In terms of protein everything I’ve read suggests you need less while in a surplus. So perhaps 1.6grams per kg of bodyweight.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Thnx Mog and newportblue. Think I will aim for 3000 to start with


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:46 am 
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Yeah it's not an exact science. Just wing it and adjust on the fly.

As far as protein goes, I also agree with Newport that the amounts recommended on many bodybuilding forums are ridiculous. I suspect these numbers come from bodybuilders who are smashing steroids and working out like crazy and carry waaaay more lean muscle mass than most people ... and then on top of that, they're eating more than they have to "just to be sure".

I don't believe an amateur athlete with far less lean muscle mass, training naturally and nowhere near as intensely, needs anywhere near those amounts of protein you see recommended in glossy bodybuilding magazines and bodybuilding forums that is mostly all about selling huge tubs of protein powder (to be consumed 3.5 seconds after workout for mad gainz bro <-- more bullshit).

I suspect Newport's recommendation of 1.6 per kg is a good one. Probably in the ballpark and if anything is more than enough.

I should disclaimer all these recommendations with the fact that I haven't studied this shit or anything. Unless Google University and years of personal experience count.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:33 am 
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I've always went by the mantra of 1gram of protein per pound of body weight and it has served me well

One of the first cuts I did I ate on a deficit and didn't regularly hit my protein allotment and it really f**ked me up. Lost loads of muscle mass and strength

If you're bulking for the first time I wouldn't start eating at a surplus until you have an idea what you your TDEE is. Otherwise you could end up eating way too much or not enough

https://tdeecalculator.net/

https://www.iifym.com/iifym-calculator/

These calculators will help you get an idea but you'll be able to hone in on your specific ability gain and lose weight by experience. Stepping on the scale daily etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:48 pm 
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fishooks15 wrote:
I've always went by the mantra of 1gram of protein per pound of body weight

I've heard that before, which is a lot. I believe the mantra should be more like per pound of lean bodyweight, and that would still be a huge bucket-load. I don't think you need extra protein on account of extra pounds of fat mass, or all it's going to do is help you maintain that fat mass. Even measuring 1 gram per pound of lean bodyweight will end up being significantly over what newport was suggesting, if you are relatively lean.

I don't think it's going to hurt to eat more other than making your farts more toxic, so whatever blows your hair back. Personally I'd prefer to save money on unnecessary, over-priced tubs of flavoured protein powder.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
fishooks15 wrote:
I've always went by the mantra of 1gram of protein per pound of body weight

I've heard that before, which is a lot. I believe the mantra should be more like per pound of lean bodyweight, and that would still be a huge bucket-load. I don't think you need extra protein on account of extra pounds of fat mass, or all it's going to do is help you maintain that fat mass. Even measuring 1 gram per pound of lean bodyweight will end up being significantly over what newport was suggesting, if you are relatively lean.

I don't think it's going to hurt to eat more other than making your farts more toxic, so whatever blows your hair back. Personally I'd prefer to save money on unnecessary, over-priced tubs of flavoured protein powder.


Just a note, there is plenty of science on this kind of stuff (albeit with plenty of space for disagreement/slightly different conclusions, given how everyone is different and it's difficult to set a proper experimental control).


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:58 pm 
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Yeah, well I use these words in bold carefully and fully intentionally because I don't want to give the impression that I know anything at all for a fact.

It's all just my 2c opinion.

Like I said before, I believe this, like a lot of bro-science, comes from what steroid-pumped pro bodybuilders have found, through many decades trial-and-error, to work best for them ... and then with a large spoonful extra on top "just to be sure". I don't believe the average natural, amateur lifter needs to eat like them. In fact, I suspect they don't even even have to.


Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Ach you're right in that there's a lot of misinformation and conflicting evidence bandied about as the answer. Basic answer is always that it depends on the person. So many individual factors at play that there's no hard and fast rule for all when it comes to appropriate protein intake.

Fully agree that the gathered wisdom in enhanced BB circles is not applicable to your average Joe; for both training and dieting approaches.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:06 pm 
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For whatever it's worth, whenever I was doing hard lifting, I always ate more protein than I thought necessary just to be sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:02 pm 
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I’d say that 2g per Ib of be while dieting and .8g per Ib while in a surplus is pretty much standard. Even from people who aren’t all about bro science.

It’s when you see bodybuilders recommending 300/400/ 500 grams of protein and 5000 plus calories a day that I think it’s just too much.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Maybe I don't understand but 2g per lb is going to be 400+g for most rugby guys.

I personally suspect that we don't really need more than about 120g max. I usually ate about 150 to be sure.

But you just have to do the math. 150g a day is +1kg of protein a week. Where's all that going? It's sure as shit not all going to muscle even if you're on a thousand cc's of horse steroids. Most of its probably being converted to carbs and used for energy. Im sure its more complicated than that. Im sure the protein is broken down to other shit and used by the body in all sorts of complicated ways that I dont know shit about . I dunno for sure. I'm just very skeptical of all the bro science and simply don't believe you need twice that much. I managed to get way more jacked than my mates who adhered to all that stuff like gospel just by doing dumb shit like eating raw eggs because I saw Rocky do it in a movie.

Eat healthy, lift heavy objects. If you want to gain weight, eat more. If you want to lose weight, eat less. Everything else is minor detail.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:34 pm 
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You know that protein synthesis is also used to replace cells in all your other organs and bones beside skeletal muscles?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Yeah, but 1kg+ worth a week?

Maybe. I dunno. I did okay on not-that-much anyway. And when I say "not that much", keep in mind Im still talking double or more the RDI. whatever that's worth. I just dont think anyone needs like 8x the RDI because you did a few gym sessions. But wtf do I know?

.I dunno shit. I'm just musing based on my own hunches and personal experiences.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
Maybe I don't understand but 2g per lb is going to be 400+g for most rugby guys.

I personally suspect that we don't really need more than about 120g max. I usually ate about 150 to be sure.

But you just have to do the math. 150g a day is +1kg of protein a week. Where's all that going? It's sure as shit not all going to muscle even if you're on a thousand cc's of horse steroids. Most of its probably being converted to carbs and used for energy. Im sure its more complicated than that. Im sure the protein is broken down to other shit and used by the body in all sorts of complicated ways that I dont know shit about . I dunno for sure. I'm just very skeptical of all the bro science and simply don't believe you need twice that much. I managed to get way more jacked than my mates who adhered to all that stuff like gospel just by doing dumb shit like eating raw eggs because I saw Rocky do it in a movie.

Eat healthy, lift heavy objects. If you want to gain weight, eat more. If you want to lose weight, eat less. Everything else is minor detail.


Sorry that’s me getting my kg and IBs mixed up. It should be 2g per kg of body weight.

Those figures aren’t bro science, they are back by decent science. Have a look at some article by Eric helms for example. Natural bodybuilder, power lifter and PHD.

I agree with your last sentence mostly but I wouldn’t say protein consumption is minor detail, I’d say it’s 3rd most important on the diet list for getting HUGE or SHREDDED.

For me it should be
1. Consistency
2. Overall calories
3. Protein consumption


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Yeah fair enough mate. I'm talking pure anecdotal personal experience bs. I believe you're bigger and stronger than me and I'm happy to take your word for it. Ain't a hill I'm willing to die on.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:22 am 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
Yeah fair enough mate. I'm talking pure anecdotal personal experience bs. I believe you're bigger and stronger than me and I'm happy to take your word for it. Ain't a hill I'm willing to die on.


You’ll make me blush. Just been doing it a while.


Had a good session last night

Lots of bench with top sets being 145x2 for 2 sets. Should have been 137.5 but was feeling good.

Also did 220kg deadlifts for 3 sets of 2 and then 5x5 front squats with 95kg. Altho I think I need to increase the weight on the front squats.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Fairly happy with today’s session.

Benched 100x10 105x6 110x4 60x15 - the 10 reps at 100 took more out of me than I thought and the pump I got in my chest from the set of 60 was disgusting :lol:

Bit of Standing Machine Supported Rowing, Seated Dumbbell Press (three sets of 6, with 30s, 32s and 34s), Close Grip Pulldowns, side and bent laterals and some curls.

Lower back has been tight recently, think the probable cause is a lack of direct core work, so that will be the order of the day tomorrow.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:06 am 
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Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Went in for a bench session the other night to find that someone at my gym has spray painted half the bars black, presumably to make them look like some of the cooler specialty bars available. It's just made the bars ludicrously slippery, I can't believe someone thought it was a good idea :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Got well beaten by some school kids at Kingston Regatta this morning. I don’t think they were old enough to buy a pint.

Getting old.

:blush:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Nolanator wrote:
Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


Nice work. Way faster than me. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Nolanator wrote:
Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


I always thought long distance running, heavy squats, and deadlifts for that matter do not go hand in hand. I mean anything over 5km. Surely the legs won’t recover well if lifting heavy in between?

I haven’t lifted a weight going on 4 weeks. I decided instead to give cardio a go with the idea of getting fitter and losing weight. I had made a pb on bench press only a few weeks ago and reckon i’ll struggle to lift a can of coke once I reach my target weight loss.. plan is to drop about 10kg, if it’s all going well, maybe even 15kg! Just after a nice (slow) 5k in the sun. Have a lot of work to do.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Stevus55 wrote:
Went in for a bench session the other night to find that someone at my gym has spray painted half the bars black, presumably to make them look like some of the cooler specialty bars available. It's just made the bars ludicrously slippery, I can't believe someone thought it was a good idea :lol:


Wire brush and scrub that shit out of them. That's what clubs do for competitive lifting to get the dead skin and chalk out of the gnurling.
Maybe complain that it was a f**king stupid idea.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:02 pm 
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Another decent session this morning

216x3, 221x3 and 226x4 on the hexbar deadlift.

Was bucked after that so just played about with some BTN Push Press, Facepulls, lateral raises and cable pulldowns.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Nice work Nol and BP.

Had a good week training this week, increasing the working sets on bench and hitting some decent weight on dl.

Then today

Squats
115x5
137x4
160x3 2 sets
185x3 was supposed to be 6 sets of 3 at this weight but felt good so added 5%
195x3 5 sets

Bench
80x 5
97x5
112x5 5 sets

Flys
5x10

Dips
Bw+17.5kg x8 5sets

Good mornings
105x5 5 sets


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:27 pm 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


Nice work. Way faster than me. :thumbup:


24 minutes dead for me today. Struggling in the heat as my heart rate spikes and stays high as soon as I push more than a jog in these temps. Very frustrating


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:30 pm 
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I think it's time to modify my programming. Certainly going to reduce the frequency and volume on leg days and just maintain where I'm at and work on form.
Leg strength is reasonable, so I don't need to chase mad goals there. It'll slow me more time and capacity to do more cardio.

Wouldn't mind improving a bit more.
There's always the belt flab to work on, too...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:39 am 
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Slow (even for my standards) 5K walk/run this morning. I should have got my arse out of bed and left early in the morning. There's a heat-wave in Stockholm at the moment and I didn't miss it. Crazy how much the heat effects your run performance, especially when I felt a tad dehydrated when I left - just smashed down a pint of water and thought "she'll be right". x( Anyway ... at least I did it. Better than not.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:44 am 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
Slow (even for my standards) 5K walk/run this morning. I should have got my arse out of bed and left early in the morning. There's a heat-wave in Stockholm at the moment and I didn't miss it. Crazy how much the heat effects you run, especially when I felt a tad dehydrated when I left - just smashed down a pint of water and thought "she'll be right". x( Anyway ... at least I did it. Better than not.


The heat is mad for slowing you down.

Couple of weekends ago I didn't go for the organised Parkrun which starts at 9am; I needed the extra sleep. I went around midday from my own run and it was hot.
I hit an average of 5:24/km for that run. During last weekend's Parkrun which was earlier in the day and it had been a couple of degrees cooler for a few days, I hit 4:40/km.

Granted, the distances weren't identical and I find that running against people drives me more than anything I can do myself, but the heat makes it so much harder.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:56 am 
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Yeah it's gross. I didn't slow down as much as you, but I run a good bit slower to start with. Anyway ... good to do it anyway I guess. Probably even a bit dangerous to push yourself if it's too hot.

R.e. your training, if you're still playing rugby, it's stupidly hard to get in proper weight sessions during the season, let alone leg sessions, unless you're some professional that has all day to recover, combined with physios, massages, ice baths, saunas, and no real social life, and it's not that much better off season because you have to stay fit.

For whatever it's worth, I suspect that if you're eating enough calories and surplus, you're probably going to put on leg beef just by running anyway. Very un-bro-science (i.e. "SQUAT LIKE A MONSTER!!!!"), but check out the calfs of cyclists, or the thighs on basically any athlete in a sport that requires both a lot of running and being heavy (i.e. eating a lot). That kind of narrows it down to just rugby and rugby league, but still.... chicken legs they are not.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:00 am 
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Mog The Almighty wrote:
Yeah it's gross. I didn't slow down as much as you, but I run a good bit slower to start with. Anyway ... good to do it anyway I guess. Probably even a bit dangerous to push yourself if it's too hot.

R.e. your training, if you're still playing rugby, it's stupidly hard to get in proper weight sessions during the season, let alone leg sessions, unless you're some professional that has all day to recover, combined with physios, massages, ice baths, saunas, and no real social life, and it's not that much better off season because you have to stay fit.

For whatever it's worth, I suspect that if you're eating enough calories and surplus, you're probably going to put on leg beef just by running anyway. Very un-bro-science (i.e. "SQUAT LIKE A MONSTER!!!!"), but check out the calfs of cyclists, or the thighs on basically any athlete in a sport that requires both a lot of running and being heavy (i.e. eating a lot). That kind of narrows it down to just rugby and rugby league, but still.... chicken legs they are not.


I have monstrous calves 8)

Lets not mention any other muscle groups though eh? :blush:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 am 
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From what I understand, pro rugby players don't squat that much, particularly in-season. For sports like Oly lifting, power lifting etc, squats are essential as they're either a part of the sport in their own right (power lifting), or an essential component of a lift (Oly).

Once a rugby player has that strength base, they don't over-do it. Pin squats, sled drives/pulls, unilateral work to work on stability etc. all take precedence over full ROM heavy squats. They keep the power output topped up by training for that and minimise exercises which have a large recovery requirement.
I've seen a few players (or recent retirees) on twitter talk about how they've just done full squats for the first time in however many months/years.


A few seasons ago, a few Leinster players had to have minor hip surgery over the course of a couple of years. They all developed the same issue. I've heard suggestions (though nothing proven) that the S&C regime at the time had full depth squats feature fairly heavily, and when combined with the other training and general abuse their bodies take, issues started to crop up.


That's not to say that rugby players don't do squats, they quite clearly do, just not when they're regularly playing. Also, squats aren't inherently "bad", they just take a bit of thought when mixing them in with other taxing training/exercise demands.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:06 am 
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blindcider wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


Nice work. Way faster than me. :thumbup:


24 minutes dead for me today. Struggling in the heat as my heart rate spikes and stays high as soon as I push more than a jog in these temps. Very frustrating


I think my fastest park run is 24m 40s. Annoyingly I am rowing when park run is on and I do miss it. Actually going out this evening for a jog rather then hitting the erg.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:08 am 
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danny_fitz wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


Nice work. Way faster than me. :thumbup:


24 minutes dead for me today. Struggling in the heat as my heart rate spikes and stays high as soon as I push more than a jog in these temps. Very frustrating


I think my fastest park run is 24m 40s. Annoyingly I am rowing when park run is on and I do miss it. Actually going out this evening for a jog rather then hitting the erg.


You guys make me feel fast :lol:

I am 3-4 minutes off my best at the moment - legs have not fully recovered from my last stupid escapade


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:09 am 
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TBF to Danny, he's old and doesn't train with running as his primary focus, so he has excuses. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:11 am 
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Speaking of park runs, I'm thinking of taking up running in the coming weeks. I have some quite pleasant areas for running around my house, and also I need to try and get the missus out and exercising more (and me too). Will be a good exercise for during the winter, as I don't like to cycle after dark (except for work etc.). I might looks at swimming too. Not sure when I'll start this though, have a 160km cycling event in a couple of weeks so probably after that.

Took a weekend off cycling this weekend, feel like a fat fudge but I had been feeling very tired in the run-up to the weekend. Took myself out for two midweek rides and could feel the tiredness in my legs. Must be accumulated fatigue or else bad sleeps.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:19 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
TBF to Danny, he's old and doesn't train with running as his primary focus, so he has excuses. :thumbup:


Cheeky c*nt :x


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:23 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
TBF to Danny, he's old and doesn't train with running as his primary focus, so he has excuses. :thumbup:


Yeah, his rowing times are awesome. That comment was meant to be self deprecating but on a reread just came across as a bit nasty :blush:

I have a sprint triathlon tomorrow evening which could be really embarrassing as I haven't really been training hard for 2 months now. Hoping that wetsuits are banned as my gut might not fit in mine x(


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
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danny_fitz wrote:
blindcider wrote:
Mog The Almighty wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
Smashed my PB on the 5k this morning. Think I broke 24 minutes.

Who knew that taking it easy on leg weights during the week and doing a lot of stretching could have such an influence on running the following weekend?


Edit, 24:06. So close! :x


Nice work. Way faster than me. :thumbup:


24 minutes dead for me today. Struggling in the heat as my heart rate spikes and stays high as soon as I push more than a jog in these temps. Very frustrating


I think my fastest park run is 24m 40s. Annoyingly I am rowing when park run is on and I do miss it. Actually going out this evening for a jog rather then hitting the erg.


I like running my parkrun, it's hilly as fudge and it's two laps wiht over 100m of elevation. Makes going to my sister's local parkrun awesome as it's relatively flat and therefore I feel like I am flying. However doing parkrun during the season is difficult as I don't really want to smash the legs before a game in the afternoon.


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