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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:54 am 
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meteorites will kill all animals, they didn't do anything wrong, infact they followed the rule of the world only to be wiped out of existences by human greed and stupidity..majority of ppl laughed and made fun of M.Night Shymalan's film "The Happening" but honestly, if something like that happened, it would be nice, culling the shit animal species which is us only is honestly the best option going forward..nature should kill us before we kill it..


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:05 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Let's skip the bullshit then and accept that you've mounted a thread disguised as concern about climate change to promote nuclear power...

which is fine if just a little deceptive and dishonest, along with filthy, dirty conniving distortion and propaganda.

But that's up to you to deal with.


The issue of heavily promoting nuclear as a solution is that it fails utterly to address the problem. We are destroying our environment through our philosophies of use and discard, we've lost the primitive ability to live within our natural limits and become enamoured with our ability to destroy those limits. Consequences are about to become our new field of discovery.

What we needed to do long ago was work out how to live within a limited ecosystem while advancing technologically. Nuclear is just another symptom of failing to do that.


Too many babies (apologies to Keith and Co on the other thread)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:06 am 
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We're successful because we are as selfish as every other organism, but intelligent too. If we are intelligent enough to channel our selfishness then we have a chance. To suggest that we deserve it because we are wasteful (a human concept) is a bit of a pointless comment.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:20 am 
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Until the stock markets change, nothing will change it's that simples IMO. They drive behaviours which are inherently counter productive to any positive changes in environmental impact.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:25 am 
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Several Billion fewer people wouldn't hurt. I blame Bob Geldof.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:26 am 
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Brumbie_Steve wrote:
Several Billion fewer people wouldn't hurt. I blame Bob Geldof.


Need a good war, you reckon?

It's all the UN's fault


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:32 am 
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Slowing emissions is one thing, recapturing and storing the excess carbon in the atmosphere is a whole different kettle of fish. We'll be living with climate change for hundreds of years at least.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:37 am 
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Diego wrote:
Slowing emissions is one thing, recapturing and storing the excess carbon in the atmosphere is a whole different kettle of fish. We'll be living with climate change for hundreds of years at least.


Sounds like a job for the Weyland-Yutani Corporation


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:52 am 
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Q1. "are we going to solve this issue?"

A1. No.

Q2. "and if so how?"

A2. See above.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:05 am 
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goeagles wrote:
Gwenno wrote:
Either we reverse it and humans survive, or it kills/culls us and it reverses anyway. I want to know how all the beef farmers are going to be persuaded to change, and what they will produce instead?


There's a reasonable chance they get substantially reduced due to lab grown meat anyway.




Lab grown meat is all hype. There are so many manufacturing limitations it's unlikely the price will ever be competitive compared to plant protein or animal protein.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:22 am 
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Less than inclined to believe the opinions of a few hippies hell bent on making us all live in vine skirts.
Some notable facts the BBC won't tell you
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/na ... han-losses
For about 600 years prior to the immediate start of the industrial revolution the Earth was in a "little ice age " so we're just reverting to the temperature the world was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 ... ning-earth

That's not to say humans aren't contributing to global warming, but CO2 is a notoriously poor green house gas in comparison to methane or water, and as expected rising CO2 levels means forests are growing everywhere, nearly as fast as brazil chops them down, we're currently losing total forest at a rate of 0.05% to 0.08%.year

And the IPCC are prone to brainfarts, they've already claimed climate change is irreversible and will take 1000s of years to reach equilibrium.

Biggest worries, still net loss of forest, loss of Coral reefs(poorly reported due to temperature rises, is due to higher levels of dissolved CO2 causing acidification to a very picky ecosystem


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:26 am 
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Theflier wrote:
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile

That would be amazing if CO2 rise happened in isolation. Unfortunately temperatures also rise which has a massive negative impact on photosynthesis and so biomass accumulation, yield etc. Climate change is not good, however you spin it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:31 am 
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Theflier wrote:
Less than inclined to believe the opinions of a few hippies hell bent on making us all live in vine skirts.
Some notable facts the BBC won't tell you
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/na ... han-losses
For about 600 years prior to the immediate start of the industrial revolution the Earth was in a "little ice age " so we're just reverting to the temperature the world was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 ... ning-earth

That's not to say humans aren't contributing to global warming, but CO2 is a notoriously poor green house gas in comparison to methane or water, and as expected rising CO2 levels means forests are growing everywhere, nearly as fast as brazil chops them down, we're currently losing total forest at a rate of 0.05% to 0.08%.year

And the IPCC are prone to brainfarts, they've already claimed climate change is irreversible and will take 1000s of years to reach equilibrium.

Biggest worries, still net loss of forest, loss of Coral reefs(poorly reported due to temperature rises, is due to higher levels of dissolved CO2 causing acidification to a very picky ecosystem


Hi Silver, long time no post you worthless piece of cyber-shit!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:31 am 
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No. The earth is a self regulating homeostatic system. It will adapt in a way that rids it of the plague of curious monkeys. I hope the ants can make a better go of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 am 
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saw this internet thing, hope its not a hoax - but this processing unit has been made someplace in British Columbia as proof of concept, it takes CO2 from the air, doesn't something with magic moonbeams & hydrogen from water, and makes Petrol.

their argument was fudge making electric vehicles, lets change the fuel source instead


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/carbon-d ... -june-2018

https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-capture ... 34738.html


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:40 am 
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Diego wrote:
Theflier wrote:
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile

That would be amazing if CO2 rise happened in isolation. Unfortunately temperatures also rise which has a massive negative impact on photosynthesis and so biomass accumulation, yield etc. Climate change is not good, however you spin it.


How does temperature increase have a massive effect on photosynthesis?
From my experience, a warm bright summer has always been fantastic for plants.

And CO2 rise =/=climate change


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:42 am 
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The problem is that you have 2 sets of people shouting loudest and drowning out any chance of reasoned debate:

1) On one end of the spectrum you have people who think it's all a conspiracy theory. The less said about this group the better.

2) But on the other you have people who are hysterically afraid of nuclear power and think the best course of action is to sabotage any attempt to research GM crops, while spending their time eating avocados and other exotic fruits that have been imported from the other side of the world on ships that spew out unimaginable amounts of pollution.

Then you have campaigns for people to take grassroots action that are little more than a distraction (eg: stop using disposable coffee cups, don't leave your electronic devices on standby)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:42 am 
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backrow wrote:
saw this internet thing, hope its not a hoax - but this processing unit has been made someplace in British Columbia as proof of concept, it takes CO2 from the air, doesn't something with magic moonbeams & hydrogen from water, and makes Petrol.

their argument was fudge making electric vehicles, lets change the fuel source instead


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/carbon-d ... -june-2018

https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-capture ... 34738.html


Same issues with making hydrogen burning engines which seem the obvious solution, more energy needs to be put in than comes out, or is economically viable.
If there;s only 50 years or so of oil left as we're constantly told, I'm happy t let it run dry and let tech do what its always done, provide a solution to a problem when it is needed


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:45 am 
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Once we can thermostatically control the sun, I think we'll be well on the way.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:45 am 
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de_Selby wrote:
The problem is that you have 2 sets of people shouting loudest and drowning out any chance of reasoned debate:

1) On one end of the spectrum you have people who think it's all a conspiracy theory. The less said about this group the better.This group is more trustworthy than the latter, they have no inner moral dilemma that they need to satisfy by looking for a cause to give their lives meaning

2) But on the other you have people who are hysterically afraid of nuclear power and think the best course of action is to sabotage any attempt to research GM crops, while spending their time eating avocados and other exotic fruits that have been imported from the other side of the world on ships that spew out unimaginable amounts of pollution. These people, in the face of overwhelming evidence will continue to fight against tech and advancements which will only serve to help the world, whilst providing a militant judgement on all who disagree

Then you have campaigns for people to take grassroots action that are little more than a distraction (eg: stop using disposable coffee cups, don't leave your electronic devices on standby)


Correct, sadly, the mass tend to listen to the doomsayers as its more interesting(and as we see in all enduring news stories)
do your own research and your preexisting assumptions will be challenged


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:46 am 
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Theflier wrote:
Diego wrote:
Theflier wrote:
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile

That would be amazing if CO2 rise happened in isolation. Unfortunately temperatures also rise which has a massive negative impact on photosynthesis and so biomass accumulation, yield etc. Climate change is not good, however you spin it.


How does temperature increase have a massive effect on photosynthesis?
From my experience, a warm bright summer has always been fantastic for plants.

And CO2 rise =/=climate change

Ok, I research this for a living so I'll keep it short. Plants have an optimum temperature point for photosynthesis. Once that point is passed it drops off rapidly due to several interacting cell processes. This is not compensated for by rising CO2.

Here's a couple of papers to look at:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 011830176X
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26279285


Last edited by Diego on Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:50 am 
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Theflier wrote:
de_Selby wrote:
The problem is that you have 2 sets of people shouting loudest and drowning out any chance of reasoned debate:

1) On one end of the spectrum you have people who think it's all a conspiracy theory. The less said about this group the better.This group is more trustworthy than the latter, they have no inner moral dilemma that they need to satisfy by looking for a cause to give their lives meaning

2) But on the other you have people who are hysterically afraid of nuclear power and think the best course of action is to sabotage any attempt to research GM crops, while spending their time eating avocados and other exotic fruits that have been imported from the other side of the world on ships that spew out unimaginable amounts of pollution. These people, in the face of overwhelming evidence will continue to fight against tech and advancements which will only serve to help the world, whilst providing a militant judgement on all who disagree

Then you have campaigns for people to take grassroots action that are little more than a distraction (eg: stop using disposable coffee cups, don't leave your electronic devices on standby)


Correct, sadly, the mass tend to listen to the doomsayers as its more interesting(and as we see in all enduring news stories)
do your own research and your preexisting assumptions will be challenged

I can only assume you are trolling.

My point is that both groups are idiots.

Whenever there is an attempt to have a reasoned debate, in a misguided attempt to have "balance" members or both these groups will get invited along and shout at each other.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:53 am 
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Theflier wrote:
Less than inclined to believe the opinions of a few hippies hell bent on making us all live in vine skirts.
Some notable facts the BBC won't tell you
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/na ... han-losses
For about 600 years prior to the immediate start of the industrial revolution the Earth was in a "little ice age " so we're just reverting to the temperature the world was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 ... ning-earth

That's not to say humans aren't contributing to global warming, but CO2 is a notoriously poor green house gas in comparison to methane or water, and as expected rising CO2 levels means forests are growing everywhere, nearly as fast as brazil chops them down, we're currently losing total forest at a rate of 0.05% to 0.08%.year

And the IPCC are prone to brainfarts, they've already claimed climate change is irreversible and will take 1000s of years to reach equilibrium.

Biggest worries, still net loss of forest, loss of Coral reefs(poorly reported due to temperature rises, is due to higher levels of dissolved CO2 causing acidification to a very picky ecosystem


Even your own link says the little ice age was a regional, not a global phenomenon, you tool.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:56 am 
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deadduck wrote:
goeagles wrote:
Gwenno wrote:
Either we reverse it and humans survive, or it kills/culls us and it reverses anyway. I want to know how all the beef farmers are going to be persuaded to change, and what they will produce instead?


There's a reasonable chance they get substantially reduced due to lab grown meat anyway.


Lab grown meat is all hype. There are so many manufacturing limitations it's unlikely the price will ever be competitive compared to plant protein or animal protein.


Fungus and insects to solve mass produced food in the future. :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:57 am 
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nuffsaid wrote:
Q1. "are we going to solve this issue?"

A1. No.

Q2. "and if so how?"

A2. Loads of wailing and hand-ringing


fixed


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:01 am 
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Ali's Choice wrote:
Theflier wrote:
Less than inclined to believe the opinions of a few hippies hell bent on making us all live in vine skirts.
Some notable facts the BBC won't tell you
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/na ... han-losses
For about 600 years prior to the immediate start of the industrial revolution the Earth was in a "little ice age " so we're just reverting to the temperature the world was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
And the sum total of all this CO2, the world is becoming more fertile https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 ... ning-earth

That's not to say humans aren't contributing to global warming, but CO2 is a notoriously poor green house gas in comparison to methane or water, and as expected rising CO2 levels means forests are growing everywhere, nearly as fast as brazil chops them down, we're currently losing total forest at a rate of 0.05% to 0.08%.year

And the IPCC are prone to brainfarts, they've already claimed climate change is irreversible and will take 1000s of years to reach equilibrium.

Biggest worries, still net loss of forest, loss of Coral reefs(poorly reported due to temperature rises, is due to higher levels of dissolved CO2 causing acidification to a very picky ecosystem


Hi Silver, long time no post you worthless piece of cyber-shit!


Image


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:04 am 
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I reckon we'll eventually see a change in energy production/storage. The technology is largely there, but it's not cost-efficient. More significantly, the infrastructure isn't there, so energy conversion/storage technologies haven't significantly penetrated all levels of developed society the way it needs to.

Whether we can do this without destroying Bangladesh and the Netherlands and significantly re-writing local climates to the point of established agriculture/industry having to change/move to accommodate these changes is another question.


One thing I worry about is on a political level. The developed world props up lots of horrible regimes in underdeveloped countries because of their raw material wealth. The West's investment in the ME may be withdrawn if oil dependence is reduced/removed, but we'll end up depending on other minerals elsewhere in the world. The whole circus will just move to a new location. Probably with China pulling all the strings.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:08 am 
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What it will take is a massive re-structuring of society so that an awful lot of work is oriented to sustainability of our presence on earth rather than activity which has for the last few hundred years more or less purely been oriented at economic growth. Notions like economically viable (in comparison to existing options) need to be put in a metaphorical sack with some bricks and chucked into the ocean just above the Mariana Trench because it doesn't matter if a fossil fuel is more profitable now when it's contributing to ever shortening the timeline for the earth being well and truly farked.

Failing that a devastating global pandemic that only affects humans...

The reporting of potentially positive tech advancements is almost a negative thing as it can lull people into complacency, thinking that the ingenuity of others will save them without them having to do anything.

I tend to have a pessimistic, often nihilistic, outlook and that's none more so than with this issue because with the way our societies are set up I just don't see enough meaningful action being taken in sufficient time to avert the doomsday scenarios. Sometimes it really does make you want to curl up in a ball under the duvet and not bother getting up.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:12 am 
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Theflier wrote:
backrow wrote:
saw this internet thing, hope its not a hoax - but this processing unit has been made someplace in British Columbia as proof of concept, it takes CO2 from the air, doesn't something with magic moonbeams & hydrogen from water, and makes Petrol.

their argument was fudge making electric vehicles, lets change the fuel source instead


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/carbon-d ... -june-2018

https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-capture ... 34738.html


Same issues with making hydrogen burning engines which seem the obvious solution, more energy needs to be put in than comes out, or is economically viable.
If there;s only 50 years or so of oil left as we're constantly told, I'm happy t let it run dry and let tech do what its always done, provide a solution to a problem when it is needed


50 years ? I thought it was more than double that.
actual energy generation isn't really a problem as there is masses of untapped nuclear, solar, and wind capacity already, let alone Waves, individual solar at micro level etc.
its the storage that is the killer, and power to weight ratio for aircraft.


oil reserves actually increased due to (in order roughly of importance) fracking, more efficient engines, rate of vehicle ownership increase in developing world slowing down, remote working lessening commuting needs


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:18 am 
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Sensible Stephen wrote:
Promising...

Quote:
It’s nothing much to look at, but the tangle of pipes, pumps, tanks, reactors, chimneys and ducts on a messy industrial estate outside the logging town of Squamish in western Canada could just provide the fix to stop the world tipping into runaway climate change and substitute dwindling supplies of conventional fuel.

It could also make Harvard superstar physicist David Keith, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates and oil sands magnate Norman Murray Edwards more money than they could ever dream of.

The idea is grandiose yet simple: decarbonise the global economy by extracting global-warming carbon dioxide (CO2) straight from the air, using arrays of giant fans and patented chemical whizzery; and then use the gas to make clean, carbon-neutral synthetic diesel and petrol to drive the world’s ships, planes and trucks.

The hope is that the combination of direct air capture (DAC), water electrolysis and fuels synthesis used to produce liquid hydrocarbon fuels can be made to work at a global scale, for little more than it costs to extract and sell fossil fuel today. This would revolutionise the world’s transport industry, which emits nearly one-third of total climate-changing emissions. It would be the equivalent of mechanising photosynthesis.

The individual technologies may not be new, but their combination at an industrial scale would be groundbreaking. Carbon Engineering, the company set up in 2009 by leading geoengineer Keith, with money from Gates and Murray, has constructed a prototype plant, installed large fans, and has been extracting around one tonne of pure CO2 every day for a year. At present it is released back into the air.

But Carbon Engineering (CE) has just passed another milestone. Working with California energy company Greyrock, it has now begun directly synthesising a mixture of petrol and diesel, using only CO2 captured from the air and hydrogen split from water with clean electricity – a process they call Air to Fuels (A2F).

“A2F is a potentially game-changing technology, which if successfully scaled up will allow us to harness cheap, intermittent renewable electricity to drive synthesis of liquid fuels that are compatible with modern infrastructure and engines,” says Geoff Holmes of CE. “This offers an alternative to biofuels and a complement to electric vehicles in the effort to displace fossil fuels from transportation.”

Synthetic fuels have been made from CO2 and H2 before, on a small scale. “But,” Holmes adds, “we think our pilot plant is the first instance of Air to Fuels where all the equipment has large-scale industrial precedent, and thus gives real indication of commercial performance and viability, and leads directly to scale-up and deployment.”

The next step is to raise the money, scale up and then commercialise the process using low-carbon electricity like solar PV (photovoltaics). Company publicity envisages massive walls of extractor fans sited outside cities and on non-agricultural land, supplying CO2 for fuel synthesis, and eventually for direct sequestration.

“A2F is the future,” says Holmes, “because it needs 100 times less land and water than biofuels, and can be scaled up and sited anywhere. But for it to work, it will have to reduce costs to little more than it costs to extract oil today, and – even trickier – persuade countries to set a global carbon price.”

Meanwhile, 4,500 miles away, in a large blue shed on a small industrial estate in the South Yorkshire coalfield outside Sheffield, the UK Carbon Capture and Storage Research Centre (UKCCSRC) is experimenting with other ways to produce negative emissions.

Critics say these technologies are unfeasible. Not producing the emissions in the first place would be much cleverer
The UKCCSRC is what remains of Britain’s official foray into carbon capture and storage (CCS), which David Cameron had backed strongly until 2015. £1bn was ringfenced for a competition between large companies to extract CO2 from coal and gas plants and then store it, possibly in old North Sea gas wells. But the plan unravelled as austerity bit, and the UK’s only running CCS pilot plant, at Ferrybridge power station, was abandoned.

The Sheffield laboratory is funded by £2.7m of government money and run by Sheffield University. It is researching different fuels, temperatures, solvents and heating speeds to best capture the CO2 for the next generation of CCS plants, and is capturing 50 tonnes of CO2 a year. And because Britain is phasing out coal power stations, the focus is on achieving negative emissions by removing and storing CO2 emitted from biomass plants, which burn pulverised wood. As the wood has already absorbed carbon while it grows, it is more or less carbon-neutral when burned. If linked to a carbon capture plant, it theoretically removes carbon from the atmosphere.

Known as Beccs (bioenergy with carbon capture and storage), this negative emissions technology is seen as vital if the UK is to meet its long-term climate target of an 80% cut in emissions at 1990 levels by 2050, according to UKCCSRC director Professor Jon Gibbins. The plan, he says, is to capture emissions from clusters of major industries, such as refineries and steelworks in places like Teesside, to reduce the costs of transporting and storing it underground.

“Direct air capture is no substitute for using conventional CCS,” says Gibbins. “Cutting emissions from existing sources at the scale of millions of tonnes a year, to stop the CO2 getting into the air in the first place, is the first priority.

“The best use for all negative emission technologies is to offset emissions that are happening now – paid for by the emitters, or by the fossil fuel suppliers. We need to get to net zero emissions before the sustainable CO2 emissions are used up. This is estimated at around 1,000bn tonnes, or around 20-30 years of global emissions based on current trends,” he says. “Having to go to net negative emissions is obviously unfair and might well prove an unfeasible burden for a future global society already burdened by climate change.”

The challenge is daunting. Worldwide manmade emissions must be brought to “net zero” no later than 2090, says the UN’s climate body, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). That means balancing the amount of carbon released by humans with an equivalent amount sequestered or offset, or buying enough carbon credits to make up the difference.

But that will not be enough. To avoid runaway climate change, emissions must then become “net negative”, with more carbon being removed than emitted. Many countries, including the UK, assume that negative emissions will be deployed at a large scale. But only a handful of CCS and pilot negative-emission plants are running anywhere in the world, and debate still rages over which, if any, technologies should be employed. (A prize of $25m put up by Richard Branson in 2007 to challenge innovators to find a commercially viable way to remove at least 1bn tonnes of atmospheric CO2 a year for 10 years, and keep it out, has still not been claimed – possibly because the public is uncertain about geoengineering.)

The achilles heel of all negative emission technologies is cost. Government policy units assume that they will become economically viable, but the best hope of Carbon Engineering and other direct air extraction companies is to get the price down to $100 a tonne from the current $600. Even then, to remove just 1% of global emissions would cost around $400bn a year, and would need to be continued for ever. Storing the CO2 permanently would cost extra.

Critics say that these technologies are unfeasible. Not using the fossil fuel and not producing the emissions in the first place would be much cleverer than having to find end-of-pipe solutions, say Professor Kevin Anderson, deputy director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, and Glen Peters, research director at the Centre for International Climate Research (Cicero) in Norway.

In a recent article in the journal Science, the two climate scientists said they were not opposed to research on negative emission technologies, but thought the world should proceed on the premise that they will not work at scale. Not to do so, they said, would be a “moral hazard par excellence”.

Instead, governments are relying on these technologies to remove hundreds of millions of tonnes of carbon from the atmosphere. “It is breathtaking,” says Anderson. “By the middle of the century, many of the models assume as much removal of CO2 from the atmosphere by negative emission technologies as is absorbed naturally today by all of the world’s oceans and plants combined. They are not an insurance policy; they are a high-risk gamble with tomorrow’s generations, particularly those living in poor and climatically vulnerable communities, set to pay the price if our high-stakes bet fails to deliver as promised.” According to Anderson, “The beguiling appeal of relying on future negative emission technologies is that they delay the need for stringent and politically challenging policies today – they pass the buck for reducing carbon on to future generations. But if these Dr Strangelove technologies fail to deliver at the planetary scale envisaged, our own children will be forced to endure the consequences of rapidly rising temperatures and a highly unstable climate.”

Kris Milkowski, business development manager at the UKCCSRC, says: “Negative emissions technology is unavoidable and here to stay. We are simply not moving [to cut emissions] fast enough. If we had an endless pile of money, we could potentially go totally renewable energy. But that transition cannot happen overnight. This, I fear, is the only large-scale solution.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... are_btn_fb


Very interesting, I do wonder why they don't try and make natural gas instead of longer chain molecules.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:19 am 
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lolz I just linked to something already posted on a 2 page thread - soz chaps !


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:32 am 
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backrow wrote:
Theflier wrote:
backrow wrote:
saw this internet thing, hope its not a hoax - but this processing unit has been made someplace in British Columbia as proof of concept, it takes CO2 from the air, doesn't something with magic moonbeams & hydrogen from water, and makes Petrol.

their argument was fudge making electric vehicles, lets change the fuel source instead


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/carbon-d ... -june-2018

https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-capture ... 34738.html


Same issues with making hydrogen burning engines which seem the obvious solution, more energy needs to be put in than comes out, or is economically viable.
If there;s only 50 years or so of oil left as we're constantly told, I'm happy t let it run dry and let tech do what its always done, provide a solution to a problem when it is needed


50 years ? I thought it was more than double that.
actual energy generation isn't really a problem as there is masses of untapped nuclear, solar, and wind capacity already, let alone Waves, individual solar at micro level etc.
its the storage that is the killer, and power to weight ratio for aircraft.


oil reserves actually increased due to (in order roughly of importance) fracking, more efficient engines, rate of vehicle ownership increase in developing world slowing down, remote working lessening commuting needs


Natural gas is considered to be the fossil fuel which will last longest. I can't remember the numbers, but oil is reckoned to go within decades.

Regarding your quoted post above. At a fundamental level all fossil fuels consist of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen arranged into various molecules. Burning these breaks the molecular bonds which releases energy (heat) which is used to drive turbines and generate electricity. The final products of (clean) fossil fuel combustion are CO2 and H2O, the two lowest energy molecules which the three above elements can form during combustion.
Reversing this and forcing H2O and CO2 to form more complex molecules is just a case of putting energy back in and ensuring the right conditions to make them react correctly. Making alcohols is relatively easily possible, but requires significant energy input.

A problem is that forming combustible fuels from CO2 and H2O requires lots of energy (and other hideously expensive materials to facilitate the reactions) so it horribly inefficient. Where do you get the energy required to drive these reactions? Solar, wind, hydro etc are the obvious candidates, but establishing an infrastructure which can generate economically significant quantities of synthetic fuels is a mammoth task.
I suppose the merits of such an approach is that once you've established the fuel synthesis industry, there's already a global infrastructure to distribute liquid based combustion fuels (oil) which can be repurposed quite easily.


I work in a different field which has a similar fundamental approach: use renewables to create a fuel from an abundant supply using energy intensive techniques, which can be transported where needed. Making hydrogen from water. Problem is that using hydrogen has a whole host of issues attached in terms of distribution, storage etc.

Edit
sewa wrote:
Very interesting, I do wonder why they don't try and make natural gas instead of longer chain molecules.


Sewa's point is a good one. Synthesising methane is much less energy demanding than other more complex fuels. That would be one way to keep the cost down. I guess some specialist applications would still need more expensive fuels. Jet fuel etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:41 am 
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Nolanator wrote:
backrow wrote:
Theflier wrote:
backrow wrote:
saw this internet thing, hope its not a hoax - but this processing unit has been made someplace in British Columbia as proof of concept, it takes CO2 from the air, doesn't something with magic moonbeams & hydrogen from water, and makes Petrol.

their argument was fudge making electric vehicles, lets change the fuel source instead


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/carbon-d ... -june-2018

https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-capture ... 34738.html


Same issues with making hydrogen burning engines which seem the obvious solution, more energy needs to be put in than comes out, or is economically viable.
If there;s only 50 years or so of oil left as we're constantly told, I'm happy t let it run dry and let tech do what its always done, provide a solution to a problem when it is needed


50 years ? I thought it was more than double that.
actual energy generation isn't really a problem as there is masses of untapped nuclear, solar, and wind capacity already, let alone Waves, individual solar at micro level etc.
its the storage that is the killer, and power to weight ratio for aircraft.


oil reserves actually increased due to (in order roughly of importance) fracking, more efficient engines, rate of vehicle ownership increase in developing world slowing down, remote working lessening commuting needs


Natural gas is considered to be the fossil fuel which will last longest. I can't remember the numbers, but oil is reckoned to go within decades.

Regarding your quoted post above. At a fundamental level all fossil fuels consist of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen arranged into various molecules. Burning these breaks the molecular bonds which releases energy (heat) which is used to drive turbines and generate electricity. The final products of (clean) fossil fuel combustion are CO2 and H2O, the two lowest energy molecules which the three above elements can form during combustion.
Reversing this and forcing H2O and CO2 to form more complex molecules is just a case of putting energy back in and ensuring the right conditions to make them react correctly. Making alcohols is relatively easily possible, but requires significant energy input.

A problem is that forming combustible fuels from CO2 and H2O requires lots of energy (and other hideously expensive materials to facilitate the reactions) so it horribly inefficient. Where do you get the energy required to drive these reactions? Solar, wind, hydro etc are the obvious candidates, but establishing an infrastructure which can generate economically significant quantities of synthetic fuels is a mammoth task.
I suppose the merits of such an approach is that once you've established the fuel synthesis industry, there's already a global infrastructure to distribute liquid based combustion fuels (oil) which can be repurposed quite easily.


I work in a different field which has a similar fundamental approach: use renewables to create a fuel from an abundant supply using energy intensive techniques, which can be transported where needed. Making hydrogen from water. Problem is that using hydrogen has a whole host of issues attached in terms of distribution, storage etc.

Edit
sewa wrote:
Very interesting, I do wonder why they don't try and make natural gas instead of longer chain molecules.


Sewa's point is a good one. Synthesising methane is much less energy demanding than other more complex fuels. That would be one way to keep the cost down. I guess some specialist applications would still need more expensive fuels. Jet fuel etc.


its about 40-50 years left of proven reserves at current rates of consumption - which of course means anything as yet undiscovered will be added to this.
Coal and gas are around 200 years I think, and of course you can ultimately make oil from these too if needed.

Perhaps you'd have discovered something worthwhile if you'd have left the sailors, gym and Battlefield 1 alone :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:06 pm 
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An article this morning says that Nestle plastic bottles rank up there with Tim Hortons and Pepsi polluting Canada's beaches. The volunteers doing the cleanup said that the very next day the beach will have significant rubbish floating back in.

... I shake my head whenever I see people stocking up on water bottles that will be used instead of a glass or reusable container (which includes many family members who simply don't care how much they're contributing to pollution as a result).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:06 pm 
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"Solve" is the give away. There is no solution - which shows the danger of scientists thinking they can direct public policy.

Scientists provide the data. Public policy expeerts (mainly economists) apply it.

Of course, the real problem is they both then need to defer to politicians as to whether the policy can be sold. Which is kind of the sticking point.

The correct approach is to take the politically acceptable actions that can be taken today to prevent further climate change which will not be more expensive than living with any avoided climate change.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:30 pm 
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When you have politicians of the calibre of well, all of them, the chances of taking the action required is the square root of fudge all.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:32 pm 
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The Man Without Fear wrote:
When you have politicians of the calibre of well, all of them, the chances of taking the action required is the square root of fudge all.


Votes count today, tomorrow is a distant planet.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:33 pm 
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zzzz wrote:
"Solve" is the give away. There is no solution - which shows the danger of scientists thinking they can direct public policy.

Scientists provide the data. Public policy expeerts (mainly economists) apply it.

Of course, the real problem is they both then need to defer to politicians as to whether the policy can be sold. Which is kind of the sticking point.

The correct approach is to take the politically acceptable actions that can be taken today to prevent further climate change which will not be more expensive than living with any avoided climate change.


You seem to be confusing scientists with bullshittiing journalist who have to simplify everything. Scientists provide the data. ah bless are you that simple.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Sandstorm wrote:
The Man Without Fear wrote:
When you have politicians of the calibre of well, all of them, the chances of taking the action required is the square root of fudge all.


Votes count today, tomorrow is a distant planet.


Or, like the morons in power in Australia at present, flat out ignore the problem and plump for coal.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:12 pm 
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backrow wrote:
Nolanator wrote:
backrow wrote:
Theflier wrote:
backrow wrote:
saw this internet thing, hope its not a hoax - but this processing unit has been made someplace in British Columbia as proof of concept, it takes CO2 from the air, doesn't something with magic moonbeams & hydrogen from water, and makes Petrol.

their argument was fudge making electric vehicles, lets change the fuel source instead


http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/carbon-d ... -june-2018

https://www.ecowatch.com/carbon-capture ... 34738.html


Same issues with making hydrogen burning engines which seem the obvious solution, more energy needs to be put in than comes out, or is economically viable.
If there;s only 50 years or so of oil left as we're constantly told, I'm happy t let it run dry and let tech do what its always done, provide a solution to a problem when it is needed


50 years ? I thought it was more than double that.
actual energy generation isn't really a problem as there is masses of untapped nuclear, solar, and wind capacity already, let alone Waves, individual solar at micro level etc.
its the storage that is the killer, and power to weight ratio for aircraft.


oil reserves actually increased due to (in order roughly of importance) fracking, more efficient engines, rate of vehicle ownership increase in developing world slowing down, remote working lessening commuting needs


Natural gas is considered to be the fossil fuel which will last longest. I can't remember the numbers, but oil is reckoned to go within decades.

Regarding your quoted post above. At a fundamental level all fossil fuels consist of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen arranged into various molecules. Burning these breaks the molecular bonds which releases energy (heat) which is used to drive turbines and generate electricity. The final products of (clean) fossil fuel combustion are CO2 and H2O, the two lowest energy molecules which the three above elements can form during combustion.
Reversing this and forcing H2O and CO2 to form more complex molecules is just a case of putting energy back in and ensuring the right conditions to make them react correctly. Making alcohols is relatively easily possible, but requires significant energy input.

A problem is that forming combustible fuels from CO2 and H2O requires lots of energy (and other hideously expensive materials to facilitate the reactions) so it horribly inefficient. Where do you get the energy required to drive these reactions? Solar, wind, hydro etc are the obvious candidates, but establishing an infrastructure which can generate economically significant quantities of synthetic fuels is a mammoth task.
I suppose the merits of such an approach is that once you've established the fuel synthesis industry, there's already a global infrastructure to distribute liquid based combustion fuels (oil) which can be repurposed quite easily.


I work in a different field which has a similar fundamental approach: use renewables to create a fuel from an abundant supply using energy intensive techniques, which can be transported where needed. Making hydrogen from water. Problem is that using hydrogen has a whole host of issues attached in terms of distribution, storage etc.

Edit
sewa wrote:
Very interesting, I do wonder why they don't try and make natural gas instead of longer chain molecules.


Sewa's point is a good one. Synthesising methane is much less energy demanding than other more complex fuels. That would be one way to keep the cost down. I guess some specialist applications would still need more expensive fuels. Jet fuel etc.


its about 40-50 years left of proven reserves at current rates of consumption - which of course means anything as yet undiscovered will be added to this.
Coal and gas are around 200 years I think, and of course you can ultimately make oil from these too if needed.

Perhaps you'd have discovered something worthwhile if you'd have left the sailors, gym and Battlefield 1 alone :D


Yep, but the problem of pollutants is still unsolved, which is the issue regarding climate change.
One of the merits of article linked above is that the raw material for synthesising fuels is found in the air, rather than in the ground. You're scrubbing CO2 from the air, converting to fuel, combusting it, and returning it to the air. With fossil fuels it's a non-stop adding CO2 to the atmosphere from where it's trapped in the ground.


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