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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:53 pm 
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grouch wrote:
In a classic John Pilger moment ;

" I never believe anything until it's officially denied"

RNZ:
"Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is defending New Zealand's transparency when it comes to party donations and says the country is free from foreign interference."

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/369215/jacinda-ardern-defends-political-donation-system


and it continues.

Some very pertinent questions raised by Chris Trotter:

Quote:
Who is in possession of Ross’ property? His family? The unnamed mental health facility detaining him? The Police? The National Party? What, if any, obligation are those holding Ross’s phone, his laptop, his hard-copy files, under to keep them safe from prying eyes? What, if anything, has been happening at Ross’s home and/or his parliamentary and electorate offices in the time that has elapsed since he was taken into state custody? Has anyone come calling? If so, who was it – and what were they after?


https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/10/23/missing/


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:30 am 
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You just can’t commit someone like that , unless they are a serious harm to themelves or others .

I’ll pick the 1/2’s brain when she gets home from locum but it all seems very fishy indeed .


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:41 am 
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eugenius wrote:
You just can’t commit someone like that , unless they are a serious harm to themelves or others .

I’ll pick the 1/2’s brain when she gets home from locum but it all seems very fishy indeed .


You’ve just answered your own question. There is no conspiracy here.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:54 am 
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Newsroom reported he was committed after an incident at his electorate office?


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:58 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Newsroom reported he was committed after an incident at his electorate office?

Conspiracy back on. :P


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:48 am 
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mr bungle wrote:
eugenius wrote:
You just can’t commit someone like that , unless they are a serious harm to themelves or others .

I’ll pick the 1/2’s brain when she gets home from locum but it all seems very fishy indeed .


You’ve just answered your own question. There is no conspiracy here.



He’d have to be seriously suicidal.

I’ve rung Psych Emergency on many occasions for clients that appear way way off the rails .

Only on very rare occasions are they ever ‘sectioned’.

Police involvement is kept to a minimum.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:53 am 
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eugenius wrote:
mr bungle wrote:
eugenius wrote:
You just can’t commit someone like that , unless they are a serious harm to themelves or others .

I’ll pick the 1/2’s brain when she gets home from locum but it all seems very fishy indeed .


You’ve just answered your own question. There is no conspiracy here.



He’d have to be seriously suicidal.



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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:54 am 
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Having a sitting MP stood aside under provisions within the Mental Health Act or guidelines is unprecedented. That MP being in the middle of an unprecedented whistleblowing / scuttling exercise is troubling, to use a political euphemism.

It's a terrible look for everyone involved and of course mud is going to be thrown at National regardless of whether it's warranted or not.

So based on those sort of crude outlines, there is a public interest in having the details revealed... but patient confidentiality and common decency prohibit disclosure. It would be good to see some clarification of the nature of his committal into care revealed, who did it and what prompted that drastic action. Beyond that, details of whatever he may have said or done would ideally remain private.

There's a real dilemma here between public interest and patient privacy... and my money says the latter will be used shamelessly to avoid disclosure, just as prior issues involving his behaviour were accommodated while it suited the party to do so.

What this is going to turn into is a graphic demonstration of how not to deal with issues surrounding mental health, with JLR for all his apparent faults being used as a pawn or commodity while everyone watching gets to see mental health further demonised rather than handled with some care and honesty as far as is appropriate.


It's a really bad turn of events on so many levels and I reckon we lack anyone of fibre and talent to tackle it from within the parliament.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:32 am 
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We're unlikely to ever know the details behind why he was sectioned, nor should we.

My wife is a DAO (Duly Authorized Officer) and can kick off the whole process of having someone committed. It's a fairly vigorous process for obvious reasons and does often involve the police if the person involved is being sectioned against their will.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:43 am 
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Obviously, however something in this supplied timeline seems abit off.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:48 am 
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Fat Old Git wrote:
We're unlikely to ever know the details behind why he was sectioned, nor should we.

My wife is a DAO (Duly Authorized Officer) and can kick off the whole process of having someone committed. It's a fairly vigorous process for obvious reasons and does often involve the police if the person involved is being sectioned against their will.


I was careful to suggest there's no need to expose the details of the precise circumstances behind the sectioning but this is a sitting MP in obvious direct conflict with his party, and he's been removed. Those circumstances need explaining transparently without exposing the patient...the fuss over the Waka jumping bill suggests there is some concern for parties removing MPs they don't like... this is a whole other level and dammit, the public has a right to know.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:09 am 
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guy smiley wrote:
Fat Old Git wrote:
We're unlikely to ever know the details behind why he was sectioned, nor should we.

My wife is a DAO (Duly Authorized Officer) and can kick off the whole process of having someone committed. It's a fairly vigorous process for obvious reasons and does often involve the police if the person involved is being sectioned against their will.


I was careful to suggest there's no need to expose the details of the precise circumstances behind the sectioning but this is a sitting MP in obvious direct conflict with his party, and he's been removed. Those circumstances need explaining transparently without exposing the patient...the fuss over the Waka jumping bill suggests there is some concern for parties removing MPs they don't like... this is a whole other level and dammit, the public has a right to know.


The elephant in the room , and there is one, is what JLR was party to, knew [and presumably backed up] who,when & where repeated cash 'donations' came from.

If there is a conspiracy , and I'm inclined to believe there is, then a modest amount of deduction leads to a very large entity with a track record of stuff like this , all over the world.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:12 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Does anyone know the latest poll results? I want to see if the Cluster-fcuk opposition has lost support, or whether voters are attracted to their discord and discontent.


Image

Preferred PM:
Jacinda Ardern - 42%
Simon Bridges - 7%


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:20 am 
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Call a snap election Jacinda, and turf Winston out :o


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:34 am 
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Ardern must be gutted

National down only 2% after the week from hell

:lol:

And this

Predicted state of the economy next year
Better State – 33% (down 6%)
Worse State – 41% (up 6%)


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:40 am 
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Dark wrote:
Ardern must be gutted

National down only 2% after the week from hell


Momentum can be a tricky thing. Let's see how this course tracks over the next few weeks.

Auckman - thanks bro.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:51 am 
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Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:56 am 
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Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:58 am 
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deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


Add the numbers up

Apparently they work out percentages of 101%


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:03 am 
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Dark wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


Add the numbers up

Apparently they work out percentages of 101%


Welcome to rounding without decimal points.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:04 am 
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deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


Kiaora to that cuzzie.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:07 am 
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deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori

TBF you can use either ... just don't use that aa that Tainui like. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:09 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


Add the numbers up

Apparently they work out percentages of 101%


Welcome to rounding without decimal points.

Dark is taking this week of the Nats meltdown so badly he's reaching for anything. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:10 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


Add the numbers up

Apparently they work out percentages of 101%


Welcome to rounding without decimal points.


Then One News is a bit shit an it's bit misleading

Labour might be on 44.5% and National 43.4%


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:34 am 
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grouch wrote:
On a positive note , long overdue IMO
" New Zealand could be a step closer to increasing the minimum residency required to get New Zealand Superannuation after a bill proposing an increase from 10 to 20 years was drawn from the parliamentary ballot.

New Zealand and Australia currently have the lowest residency requirements in the OECD at 10 years for eligibility to the state pension while the average across the OECD is 26 years.

But a bill put forward by New Zealand First MP Mark Patterson could change that, if it gains support from other political parties.

Patterson's bill proposes raising the minimum residency from 10 to 20 years after the age of 20 - meaning a childhood spend in New Zealand would not count towards the qualification."

I'd also support a bill limiting access to public funded healthcare for immigrants over the age of 30.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12058818
It is a sensible move, but will need some hardship discretions to avoid unduly harsh outcomes (for immigrants and kiwis alike). Despite being marketed as aimed at immigrants, it will also impact long term fleewees, so I assume there will be some consideration of whether they have access to foreign superannuation funds.

More interesting is the philosophical crack it opens on entitlements generally. If NZ citizens are denied access to superannuation on the basis that they weren’t in the country during their most productive years, then it leads (as it already is online) to a discussion of net contributions. In reality a number of expat kiwis will be less of a net drain on the nation’s resources than long term resident kiwis who don’t pay tax.

There is a lot to like about the broad consensus MMP produces on issues like these.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:38 am 
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Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
Ardern must be gutted

National down only 2% after the week from hell


Momentum can be a tricky thing. Let's see how this course tracks over the next few weeks.

Auckman - thanks bro.

Quote:
The poll was released on Tuesday night and takes in the period from Monday to Friday last week.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:47 am 
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Dark wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think


Indeed. It's Māori not Maori


Add the numbers up

Apparently they work out percentages of 101%


Welcome to rounding without decimal points.


Then One News is a bit shit an it's bit misleading

Labour might be on 44.5% and National 43.4%


It would be more misleading to fudge the result to equal 100. You’re clutching here. Take your ‘only 2%’ win and leave it.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:50 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
grouch wrote:
On a positive note , long overdue IMO
" New Zealand could be a step closer to increasing the minimum residency required to get New Zealand Superannuation after a bill proposing an increase from 10 to 20 years was drawn from the parliamentary ballot.

New Zealand and Australia currently have the lowest residency requirements in the OECD at 10 years for eligibility to the state pension while the average across the OECD is 26 years.

But a bill put forward by New Zealand First MP Mark Patterson could change that, if it gains support from other political parties.

Patterson's bill proposes raising the minimum residency from 10 to 20 years after the age of 20 - meaning a childhood spend in New Zealand would not count towards the qualification."

I'd also support a bill limiting access to public funded healthcare for immigrants over the age of 30.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12058818
It is a sensible move, but will need some hardship discretions to avoid unduly harsh outcomes (for immigrants and kiwis alike). Despite being marketed as aimed at immigrants, it will also impact long term fleewees, so I assume there will be some consideration of whether they have access to foreign superannuation funds.

More interesting is the philosophical crack it opens on entitlements generally. If NZ citizens are denied access to superannuation on the basis that they weren’t in the country during their most productive years, then it leads (as it already is online) to a discussion of net contributions. In reality a number of expat kiwis will be less of a net drain on the nation’s resources than long term resident kiwis who don’t pay tax.

There is a lot to like about the broad consensus MMP produces on issues like these.


Valid points.
Fleewees should qualify on a pro rata basis. ie Working life 50 years , % spent in NZ and making a tax contribution = pro rata %payment OR % of the 20 years 45-6~ within NZ tax system.

Non -taxpaying or minimal tax paying [ Trading via a Trust] - no Super.

None of which would have been an issue if Muldoon hadn't kicked WB Sutch's NZ Superannuation plan for touch in December 1975.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10465138


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:52 am 
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As if it wasn't bizarre already!

Quote:
Botany MP Jami-Lee Ross has been discharged from Middlemore Hospital and is in the care of a friend, the Herald understands.

Ross, who was taken into care at the mental health unit on Sunday, left the hospital on Tuesday afternoon and is no longer in Auckland, said a friend who did not want to be named.

"He's safe and sound, and he's resting. He is focusing on getting well and not focusing on politics or anything like that."

The friend said that Ross was no longer the subject of a compulsory treatment order, meaning his care would not trigger a court hearing or a notice to Speaker Trevor Mallard.


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12147444


Last edited by grouch on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:54 am 
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Wilderbeast wrote:
Dark wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think




Welcome to rounding without decimal points.


Then One News is a bit shit an it's bit misleading

Labour might be on 44.5% and National 43.4%


It would be more misleading to fudge the result to equal 100. You’re clutching here. Take your ‘only 2%’ win and leave it.


Fair point

Though One news could just take our tax payer funding and either lower the size of the font or buy a slightly bigger big screen and make it to one decimal point


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:56 am 
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Dark wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Dark wrote:
Tehui wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?

Slightly embarrassing I would think




Welcome to rounding without decimal points.


Then One News is a bit shit an it's bit misleading

Labour might be on 44.5% and National 43.4%


It would be more misleading to fudge the result to equal 100. You’re clutching here. Take your ‘only 2%’ win and leave it.


Fair point

Though One news could just take our tax payer funding and either lower the size of the font or buy a slightly bigger big screen and make it to one decimal point


They're strapped after 9 years of Gnat mismanagement and can't afford the decimal point for the Maori party result.

ie 0.1%


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:05 am 
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eugenius wrote:
You just can’t commit someone like that , unless they are a serious harm to themelves or others .

I’ll pick the 1/2’s brain when she gets home from locum but it all seems very fishy indeed .


Correct. The definition of mental disorder under the Mental Health (Compulsory Assessment & Treatment) Act is:

mental disorder, in relation to any person, means an abnormal state of mind (whether of a continuous or an intermittent nature), characterised by delusions, or by disorders of mood or perception or volition or cognition, of such a degree that it—
(a)
poses a serious danger to the health or safety of that person or of others; or
(b)
seriously diminishes the capacity of that person to take care of himself or herself;—


I'm guessing Ross was assessed under sec 8A of the MH CAT Act.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/publ ... #DLM263057


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:08 am 
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Mr Mike wrote:
grouch wrote:
On a positive note , long overdue IMO
" New Zealand could be a step closer to increasing the minimum residency required to get New Zealand Superannuation after a bill proposing an increase from 10 to 20 years was drawn from the parliamentary ballot.

New Zealand and Australia currently have the lowest residency requirements in the OECD at 10 years for eligibility to the state pension while the average across the OECD is 26 years.

But a bill put forward by New Zealand First MP Mark Patterson could change that, if it gains support from other political parties.

Patterson's bill proposes raising the minimum residency from 10 to 20 years after the age of 20 - meaning a childhood spend in New Zealand would not count towards the qualification."

I'd also support a bill limiting access to public funded healthcare for immigrants over the age of 30.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12058818
It is a sensible move, but will need some hardship discretions to avoid unduly harsh outcomes (for immigrants and kiwis alike). Despite being marketed as aimed at immigrants, it will also impact long term fleewees, so I assume there will be some consideration of whether they have access to foreign superannuation funds.

More interesting is the philosophical crack it opens on entitlements generally. If NZ citizens are denied access to superannuation on the basis that they weren’t in the country during their most productive years, then it leads (as it already is online) to a discussion of net contributions. In reality a number of expat kiwis will be less of a net drain on the nation’s resources than long term resident kiwis who don’t pay tax.

There is a lot to like about the broad consensus MMP produces on issues like these.

Not only did I suffer through compounding interest while studying now all that work I did as a teenager wont count towards my retirement. :x

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:10 am 
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grouch wrote:
Dark wrote:
Wilderbeast wrote:
Dark wrote:
Anyone else notice something not quite right with that poll?



Then One News is a bit shit an it's bit misleading

Labour might be on 44.5% and National 43.4%


It would be more misleading to fudge the result to equal 100. You’re clutching here. Take your ‘only 2%’ win and leave it.


Fair point

Though One news could just take our tax payer funding and either lower the size of the font or buy a slightly bigger big screen and make it to one decimal point


They're strapped after 9 years of Gnat mismanagement and can't afford the decimal point for the Maori party result.



:lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:11 am 
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Jesus grouch has gone so far left he's come out the other side and sounds like he should be supporting ACT with these Super policies


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:16 am 
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deadduck wrote:
Jesus grouch has gone so far left he's come out the other side and sounds like he should be supporting ACT with these Super policies

TBF, he was a Labour supporter back in the days when Prebble and Douglas came into power.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:31 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
Mr Mike wrote:
grouch wrote:
On a positive note , long overdue IMO
" New Zealand could be a step closer to increasing the minimum residency required to get New Zealand Superannuation after a bill proposing an increase from 10 to 20 years was drawn from the parliamentary ballot.

New Zealand and Australia currently have the lowest residency requirements in the OECD at 10 years for eligibility to the state pension while the average across the OECD is 26 years.

But a bill put forward by New Zealand First MP Mark Patterson could change that, if it gains support from other political parties.

Patterson's bill proposes raising the minimum residency from 10 to 20 years after the age of 20 - meaning a childhood spend in New Zealand would not count towards the qualification."

I'd also support a bill limiting access to public funded healthcare for immigrants over the age of 30.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12058818
It is a sensible move, but will need some hardship discretions to avoid unduly harsh outcomes (for immigrants and kiwis alike). Despite being marketed as aimed at immigrants, it will also impact long term fleewees, so I assume there will be some consideration of whether they have access to foreign superannuation funds.

More interesting is the philosophical crack it opens on entitlements generally. If NZ citizens are denied access to superannuation on the basis that they weren’t in the country during their most productive years, then it leads (as it already is online) to a discussion of net contributions. In reality a number of expat kiwis will be less of a net drain on the nation’s resources than long term resident kiwis who don’t pay tax.

There is a lot to like about the broad consensus MMP produces on issues like these.

Not only did I suffer through compounding interest while studying now all that work I did as a teenager wont count towards my retirement. :x

:lol:

Am I correct , you are in oz?
Do your homework on the best performing super funds [ generally union or trade ] and salary sacrifice as much as possible . Review annually the return and select the most aggressive fund that you are comfortable with.

Go for Citizenship asap.

As a nation , NZ has written the book on' how to fuckup retirement planning for those born after 1970'.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:34 am 
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UncleFB wrote:
deadduck wrote:
Jesus grouch has gone so far left he's come out the other side and sounds like he should be supporting ACT with these Super policies

TBF, he was a Labour supporter back in the days when Prebble and Douglas came into power.


Only by expediency.

I've spent my whole life far to the left of Leon Trotsky.

Fidel Castro came close.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:36 am 
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National is gone.

They're now losing the "which leader would I rather have a bbq with" contest - which is how people vote.


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 Post subject: Re: NZ Politics Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:37 am 
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Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 2:38 am
Posts: 1183
Location: NZ
Ross is out

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12147444


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