COVID-19... lab or nature?

All things Rugby

Lab or nature

Lab release
45
60%
Natural species jump
27
36%
Gavin Henson
3
4%
 
Total votes: 75

Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

Morgan14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm If lab created, do you believe it was released on purpose, or by accident?

If on purpose, to what end? Weaken the West with China being the lone country to experience economic growth (for the most part)?

For me, I'd say I'm more in the nature camp, but definitely interested to hear more if more evidence is uncovered. It it was lab created, I'm guessing it was released accidentally given China's apparent lack of protocols followed elsewhere (e.g. this out of control rocket stage - they just don't care).
:lol:

I love all these opinions from people, like myself, that can't even run a bath nevermind a rocket
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mr bungle
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by mr bungle »

boere wors wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:22 pm
Lemoentjie wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:43 pm Research. Specialise in bioinformatics and mostly study RNA interference, which is (mainly) a viral defence mechanism conserved in higher species (plants, fungi, insects, mammals etc.).
You sound completely underqualified to debate with the bored's virus experts :thumbdown:
:lol:
:lol: :thumbup:
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mr bungle
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by mr bungle »

Dozy wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:55 pm
Morgan14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm If lab created, do you believe it was released on purpose, or by accident?

If on purpose, to what end? Weaken the West with China being the lone country to experience economic growth (for the most part)?

For me, I'd say I'm more in the nature camp, but definitely interested to hear more if more evidence is uncovered. It it was lab created, I'm guessing it was released accidentally given China's apparent lack of protocols followed elsewhere (e.g. this out of control rocket stage - they just don't care).
:lol:

I love all these opinions from people, like myself, that can't even run a bath nevermind a rocket
I went right through school with the founder of Rocket Lab :proud:
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:43 pm
TheFrog wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:28 pm
Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:25 pm
towny wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:54 pm
Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:27 am Article is rubbish. Will expand more if not too hungover tomorrow.

The bloke simply isn’t an expert. He’s a journo with an interest in science. Some off the stuff he covers is exactly in my field and it’s just speculation.

My guess is 80/20 it’s natural. China’s still completely to blame for their handling though.
No one said he was an expert, but I look forward to your expert opinion on the topic.
Ooohhh….you’re on the hunt. Going to catch me out?
What do you do IRL Bindi?
Research. Specialise in bioinformatics and mostly study RNA interference, which is (mainly) a viral defence mechanism conserved in higher species (plants, fungi, insects, mammals etc.).
🤬
Morgan14
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Morgan14 »

Dozy wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:55 pm
Morgan14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm If lab created, do you believe it was released on purpose, or by accident?

If on purpose, to what end? Weaken the West with China being the lone country to experience economic growth (for the most part)?

For me, I'd say I'm more in the nature camp, but definitely interested to hear more if more evidence is uncovered. It it was lab created, I'm guessing it was released accidentally given China's apparent lack of protocols followed elsewhere (e.g. this out of control rocket stage - they just don't care).
:lol:

I love all these opinions from people, like myself, that can't even run a bath nevermind a rocket

What are your thoughts on the out of control rocket Doh-xi?
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Newby1
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Newby1 »

Morgan14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:46 pm If lab created, do you believe it was released on purpose, or by accident?

If on purpose, to what end? Weaken the West with China being the lone country to experience economic growth (for the most part)?

For me, I'd say I'm more in the nature camp, but definitely interested to hear more if more evidence is uncovered. It it was lab created, I'm guessing it was released accidentally given China's apparent lack of protocols followed elsewhere (e.g. this out of control rocket stage - they just don't care).
China has a huge adding population problem. This virus targets of people overwhelmingly. A few deaths which are easily covered up by a compliant press will ease the burden on the state and help propagate rising living standards for everyone else which is essentially what keeps the PRC in power.

Chaos in the west is just a bonus side effect.
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Sefton
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:43 pm
TheFrog wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:28 pm
Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 2:25 pm
towny wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:54 pm
Bindi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:27 am Article is rubbish. Will expand more if not too hungover tomorrow.

The bloke simply isn’t an expert. He’s a journo with an interest in science. Some off the stuff he covers is exactly in my field and it’s just speculation.

My guess is 80/20 it’s natural. China’s still completely to blame for their handling though.
No one said he was an expert, but I look forward to your expert opinion on the topic.
Ooohhh….you’re on the hunt. Going to catch me out?
What do you do IRL Bindi?
Research. Specialise in bioinformatics and mostly study RNA interference, which is (mainly) a viral defence mechanism conserved in higher species (plants, fungi, insects, mammals etc.).
Impressive credentials, if Mog isn’t available I know who I’ll turn to.
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Bindi
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Bindi »

Couldn't be bothered going over the whole thing in my state, so will look at a bit and assume the rest is just as bad.
The furin cleavage site. The furin cleavage site is a minute part of the virus’s anatomy but one that exerts great influence on its infectivity. It sits in the middle of the SARS2 spike protein. It also lies at the heart of the puzzle of where the virus came from.

Viruses have all kinds of clever tricks, so why does the furin cleavage site stand out? Because of all known SARS-related beta-coronaviruses, only SARS2 possesses a furin cleavage site. All the other viruses have their S2 unit cleaved at a different site and by a different mechanism.
Furin cleavage sites are common in beta-coronaviruses. Thye look to have evolved independently multiple times:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6120304165

Seems like a fairly major thing to omit. Even MERS has a furin site.
Recombination is an inadvertent swapping of genomic material that occurs when two viruses happen to invade the same cell, and their progeny are assembled with bits and pieces of RNA belonging to the other. Beta-coronaviruses will only combine with other beta-coronaviruses but can acquire, by recombination, almost any genetic element present in the collective genomic pool. What they cannot acquire is an element the pool does not possess. And no known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, the class to which SARS2 belongs, possesses a furin cleavage site.
This makes no sense. SARS causing beta-coronaviruses can only recombine with other SARS causing beta-coronaviruses? That's just flat out wrong. Beta-coronaviruses, whether they cause SARS or not, can happily recombine.
More here:

https://virological.org/t/naturally-occ ... spikes/560

Important point:
Previously one of us (WRG) presented additional strong evidence that the furin cleavage site insertion in SARS-CoV2 was generated via a natural process (Gallaher, 2020c). Although the 12 base insertion preserves the reading frame, the insertion is out-of-frame. It is highly implausible that any scientist attempting to insert a furin cleavage site would do so by making an out-of-frame insertion. Previous studies that introduced furin cleavage sites in SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV spike genes did not introduce insertions (Follis et al., 2006; Yang et al., 2015). Nor is it likely that any laboratorian would have engineered a change in the SARS-CoV-2 spike that purposefully resulted in prediction of O-linked glycan sites.
And here:

https://virological.org/t/tackling-rumo ... ov2019/384
RaTG13, or anything nearly identical to it at the RNA level, simply could not be a proximal source of nCoV2019. It just LOOKS like it might be…at first glance.

Given that furin cleavage signals are present in other coronaviruses at exactly that point in the S1/S2 boundary region, it only LOOKS unusual, especially against the backdrop of SARS. The preponderance of evidence, coupled with Ockham’s razor (that the simplest explanation is preferred) dictates that the PRRA sequence has been conserved in nCoV2019 from a long ago ancestor virus. It is not of suspicious origin. The closest bat virus sequence is really not close at all.
This also from Bill Gallaher is interesting:
In HKU9 they code for TSAG in the loop region known in the Gao terminology as SD3. The first CT of the putative insert is still orphan, but there is a relevant possible source for the rest, albeit out of frame.

The “Insert” is CT CCTCGGCGGG, the last ten identical to the sequence in HKU9.

The sequence context has other similarities, i.e the “cagac” upstream and a “c” downstream of the “insert” as aligned here:

HKU9 gcatttgta caga------cctcggcgggc ctctgt

CoV-2 tatcagact cagac ttgct cctcggcgggc acgtagt

Total of 14 of 19 identical nucleotides in two runs with one gap. That’s a lock.

Copy choice errors in mixed infections do not have to be in an exact context, since it is not a recombination, but RNA polymerase hopping from one template strand to another. In this case the two templates code for the same gene, between regions about a thousand nucleotides from one another, out of a genome of 30,000 nucleotides. There could easily have been evolution of the site since the mixed infection, over a period of years.
CHecked this using BLAST, and it's correct:

Query 1 CAGACCTCGGCGGGC 15
|||||||||||||||
Sbjct 24190 CAGACCTCGGCGGGC 24204

Shows how the less common codon usage in the furin site quite possibly came to be in SARS-COV2.

Given all this is relatively well known and completely ignored in the OP's article, I'm going to conclude he has an agenda and is only presenting info that supports his case - not really the done thing in science (but fine on PR).
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guy smiley
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by guy smiley »

I'm going to need some stronger coffee here, I think.
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Bindi
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Bindi »

Viral evolution is complicated and still not completely understood. Makes it easy for shysters to say whatever they want to say now that it's become a controversial topic.

My guess is that the disease was picked up from a non-bat host in China. The carrier bought it to Wuhan without infecting anyone (just like when cases have been picked up in Australia where an infectious person has been in the community for a week or more, and the only person they've infected is their partner). The carrier may have been young and had no symptoms at all. Got passed to a superspreader, and we are where we are now.

The lab release scenario is possible. Virus evolved naturally. Samples bought to lab. Somehow someone got infected. As above.

The gain-of-function origin is highly improbable for the above reasons. Quite an effort to go to to make it look completely natural.
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guy smiley
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by guy smiley »

I'm kinda getting my head around the info you provided Bindi but I want to go back over the article I quoted and compare relevant passages to get a better understanding... got stuff to do for a while so I'll get back into that later.

How's the head today, BTW?
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Bindi
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Bindi »

guy smiley wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:57 am I'm kinda getting my head around the info you provided Bindi but I want to go back over the article I quoted and compare relevant passages to get a better understanding... got stuff to do for a while so I'll get back into that later.

How's the head today, BTW?
Less than 100%
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Sandstorm
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sandstorm »

Can Bindi post more about cleavage please?
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vh5150
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by vh5150 »

The burden of proof rests largely on the “natural” theory.
SARS COV II and it’s polybasic furin cleavage site insert remains the smoking gun, along with foreign experts being granted lab access after 1 whole year of the pandemic.
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

Rugby forum opinions. Guy is QAnon 🤣
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Sefton
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

vh5150 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:00 am The burden of proof rests largely on the “natural” theory.
SARS COV II and it’s polybasic furin cleavage site insert remains the smoking gun, along with foreign experts being granted lab access after 1 whole year of the pandemic.
Why does it rest with the natural theory?
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sorCrer
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by sorCrer »

Sefton wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:58 am
vh5150 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:00 am The burden of proof rests largely on the “natural” theory.
SARS COV II and it’s polybasic furin cleavage site insert remains the smoking gun, along with foreign experts being granted lab access after 1 whole year of the pandemic.
Why does it rest with the natural theory?
You obviously haven't seen his cricketer classification system. :(
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Bindi
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Bindi »

If the proponents of the lab theory didn't go full retard and try to prove that the virus was engineered in the face of lots of evidence it wasn't, all whilst attacking pretty much every coronavirus researcher on social media, they'd be far more persuasive.

It's very clear the CCP both covered up the early stages of the pandemic and didn't respond effectively, and there's now likey zero chance that the pandemic's origins will ever be truly uncovered. That's almost entirely on the CCP, but Western conspiracy theorists aren't helping.
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:17 am If the proponents of the lab theory didn't go full retard and try to prove that the virus was engineered in the face of lots of evidence it wasn't, all whilst attacking pretty much every coronavirus researcher on social media, they'd be far more persuasive.

It's very clear the CCP both covered up the early stages of the pandemic and didn't respond effectively, and there's now likey zero chance that the pandemic's origins will ever be truly uncovered. That's almost entirely on the CCP, but Western conspiracy theorists aren't helping.
That is also a pile of crap. If you look at the response in our own countries to this very day they have knocked our response out of the park.

If you disagree you are being dishonest
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Sefton
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Sefton »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:48 pm
Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:17 am If the proponents of the lab theory didn't go full retard and try to prove that the virus was engineered in the face of lots of evidence it wasn't, all whilst attacking pretty much every coronavirus researcher on social media, they'd be far more persuasive.

It's very clear the CCP both covered up the early stages of the pandemic and didn't respond effectively, and there's now likey zero chance that the pandemic's origins will ever be truly uncovered. That's almost entirely on the CCP, but Western conspiracy theorists aren't helping.
That is also a pile of crap. If you look at the response in our own countries to this very day they have knocked our response out of the park.

If you disagree you are being dishonest
You’re a shit shill for the CCP.
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

Ok comical Ali
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:40 am Couldn't be bothered going over the whole thing in my state, so will look at a bit and assume the rest is just as bad.
The furin cleavage site. The furin cleavage site is a minute part of the virus’s anatomy but one that exerts great influence on its infectivity. It sits in the middle of the SARS2 spike protein. It also lies at the heart of the puzzle of where the virus came from.

Viruses have all kinds of clever tricks, so why does the furin cleavage site stand out? Because of all known SARS-related beta-coronaviruses, only SARS2 possesses a furin cleavage site. All the other viruses have their S2 unit cleaved at a different site and by a different mechanism.
Furin cleavage sites are common in beta-coronaviruses. Thye look to have evolved independently multiple times:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6120304165

Seems like a fairly major thing to omit. Even MERS has a furin site.
Recombination is an inadvertent swapping of genomic material that occurs when two viruses happen to invade the same cell, and their progeny are assembled with bits and pieces of RNA belonging to the other. Beta-coronaviruses will only combine with other beta-coronaviruses but can acquire, by recombination, almost any genetic element present in the collective genomic pool. What they cannot acquire is an element the pool does not possess. And no known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, the class to which SARS2 belongs, possesses a furin cleavage site.
This makes no sense. SARS causing beta-coronaviruses can only recombine with other SARS causing beta-coronaviruses? That's just flat out wrong. Beta-coronaviruses, whether they cause SARS or not, can happily recombine.
More here:

https://virological.org/t/naturally-occ ... spikes/560

Important point:
Previously one of us (WRG) presented additional strong evidence that the furin cleavage site insertion in SARS-CoV2 was generated via a natural process (Gallaher, 2020c). Although the 12 base insertion preserves the reading frame, the insertion is out-of-frame. It is highly implausible that any scientist attempting to insert a furin cleavage site would do so by making an out-of-frame insertion. Previous studies that introduced furin cleavage sites in SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV spike genes did not introduce insertions (Follis et al., 2006; Yang et al., 2015). Nor is it likely that any laboratorian would have engineered a change in the SARS-CoV-2 spike that purposefully resulted in prediction of O-linked glycan sites.
And here:

https://virological.org/t/tackling-rumo ... ov2019/384
RaTG13, or anything nearly identical to it at the RNA level, simply could not be a proximal source of nCoV2019. It just LOOKS like it might be…at first glance.

Given that furin cleavage signals are present in other coronaviruses at exactly that point in the S1/S2 boundary region, it only LOOKS unusual, especially against the backdrop of SARS. The preponderance of evidence, coupled with Ockham’s razor (that the simplest explanation is preferred) dictates that the PRRA sequence has been conserved in nCoV2019 from a long ago ancestor virus. It is not of suspicious origin. The closest bat virus sequence is really not close at all.
This also from Bill Gallaher is interesting:
In HKU9 they code for TSAG in the loop region known in the Gao terminology as SD3. The first CT of the putative insert is still orphan, but there is a relevant possible source for the rest, albeit out of frame.

The “Insert” is CT CCTCGGCGGG, the last ten identical to the sequence in HKU9.

The sequence context has other similarities, i.e the “cagac” upstream and a “c” downstream of the “insert” as aligned here:

HKU9 gcatttgta caga------cctcggcgggc ctctgt

CoV-2 tatcagact cagac ttgct cctcggcgggc acgtagt

Total of 14 of 19 identical nucleotides in two runs with one gap. That’s a lock.

Copy choice errors in mixed infections do not have to be in an exact context, since it is not a recombination, but RNA polymerase hopping from one template strand to another. In this case the two templates code for the same gene, between regions about a thousand nucleotides from one another, out of a genome of 30,000 nucleotides. There could easily have been evolution of the site since the mixed infection, over a period of years.
CHecked this using BLAST, and it's correct:

Query 1 CAGACCTCGGCGGGC 15
|||||||||||||||
Sbjct 24190 CAGACCTCGGCGGGC 24204

Shows how the less common codon usage in the furin site quite possibly came to be in SARS-COV2.

Given all this is relatively well known and completely ignored in the OP's article, I'm going to conclude he has an agenda and is only presenting info that supports his case - not really the done thing in science (but fine on PR).
Phew!

I had often wondered if I chose correctly and you have allayed my fears. I made the right choice in not pursuing a career in the biological sciences - becoming a lay-about f*ckwit was the correct call. I have no idea if what you said made any sense; however you seem like you're a f*cking boss! I've chosen to give you my full proxy when it comes to anything to do with nerd things like.... well, whatever this field of study is.

Thanks for taking the time to go through this point by point. :thumbup:
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:48 pm
Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:17 am If the proponents of the lab theory didn't go full retard and try to prove that the virus was engineered in the face of lots of evidence it wasn't, all whilst attacking pretty much every coronavirus researcher on social media, they'd be far more persuasive.

It's very clear the CCP both covered up the early stages of the pandemic and didn't respond effectively, and there's now likey zero chance that the pandemic's origins will ever be truly uncovered. That's almost entirely on the CCP, but Western conspiracy theorists aren't helping.
That is also a pile of crap. If you look at the response in our own countries to this very day they have knocked our response out of the park.

If you disagree you are being dishonest
Except it's not a pile of crap, is it?
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DragsterDriver
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by DragsterDriver »

towny wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:31 pm
Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:40 am Couldn't be bothered going over the whole thing in my state, so will look at a bit and assume the rest is just as bad.
The furin cleavage site. The furin cleavage site is a minute part of the virus’s anatomy but one that exerts great influence on its infectivity. It sits in the middle of the SARS2 spike protein. It also lies at the heart of the puzzle of where the virus came from.

Viruses have all kinds of clever tricks, so why does the furin cleavage site stand out? Because of all known SARS-related beta-coronaviruses, only SARS2 possesses a furin cleavage site. All the other viruses have their S2 unit cleaved at a different site and by a different mechanism.
Furin cleavage sites are common in beta-coronaviruses. Thye look to have evolved independently multiple times:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6120304165

Seems like a fairly major thing to omit. Even MERS has a furin site.
Recombination is an inadvertent swapping of genomic material that occurs when two viruses happen to invade the same cell, and their progeny are assembled with bits and pieces of RNA belonging to the other. Beta-coronaviruses will only combine with other beta-coronaviruses but can acquire, by recombination, almost any genetic element present in the collective genomic pool. What they cannot acquire is an element the pool does not possess. And no known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, the class to which SARS2 belongs, possesses a furin cleavage site.
This makes no sense. SARS causing beta-coronaviruses can only recombine with other SARS causing beta-coronaviruses? That's just flat out wrong. Beta-coronaviruses, whether they cause SARS or not, can happily recombine.
More here:

https://virological.org/t/naturally-occ ... spikes/560

Important point:
Previously one of us (WRG) presented additional strong evidence that the furin cleavage site insertion in SARS-CoV2 was generated via a natural process (Gallaher, 2020c). Although the 12 base insertion preserves the reading frame, the insertion is out-of-frame. It is highly implausible that any scientist attempting to insert a furin cleavage site would do so by making an out-of-frame insertion. Previous studies that introduced furin cleavage sites in SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV spike genes did not introduce insertions (Follis et al., 2006; Yang et al., 2015). Nor is it likely that any laboratorian would have engineered a change in the SARS-CoV-2 spike that purposefully resulted in prediction of O-linked glycan sites.
And here:

https://virological.org/t/tackling-rumo ... ov2019/384
RaTG13, or anything nearly identical to it at the RNA level, simply could not be a proximal source of nCoV2019. It just LOOKS like it might be…at first glance.

Given that furin cleavage signals are present in other coronaviruses at exactly that point in the S1/S2 boundary region, it only LOOKS unusual, especially against the backdrop of SARS. The preponderance of evidence, coupled with Ockham’s razor (that the simplest explanation is preferred) dictates that the PRRA sequence has been conserved in nCoV2019 from a long ago ancestor virus. It is not of suspicious origin. The closest bat virus sequence is really not close at all.
This also from Bill Gallaher is interesting:
In HKU9 they code for TSAG in the loop region known in the Gao terminology as SD3. The first CT of the putative insert is still orphan, but there is a relevant possible source for the rest, albeit out of frame.

The “Insert” is CT CCTCGGCGGG, the last ten identical to the sequence in HKU9.

The sequence context has other similarities, i.e the “cagac” upstream and a “c” downstream of the “insert” as aligned here:

HKU9 gcatttgta caga------cctcggcgggc ctctgt

CoV-2 tatcagact cagac ttgct cctcggcgggc acgtagt

Total of 14 of 19 identical nucleotides in two runs with one gap. That’s a lock.

Copy choice errors in mixed infections do not have to be in an exact context, since it is not a recombination, but RNA polymerase hopping from one template strand to another. In this case the two templates code for the same gene, between regions about a thousand nucleotides from one another, out of a genome of 30,000 nucleotides. There could easily have been evolution of the site since the mixed infection, over a period of years.
CHecked this using BLAST, and it's correct:

Query 1 CAGACCTCGGCGGGC 15
|||||||||||||||
Sbjct 24190 CAGACCTCGGCGGGC 24204

Shows how the less common codon usage in the furin site quite possibly came to be in SARS-COV2.

Given all this is relatively well known and completely ignored in the OP's article, I'm going to conclude he has an agenda and is only presenting info that supports his case - not really the done thing in science (but fine on PR).
Phew!

I had often wondered if I chose correctly and you have allayed my fears. I made the right choice in not pursuing a career in the biological sciences - becoming a lay-about f*ckwit was the correct call. I have no idea if what you said made any sense; however you seem like you're a f*cking boss! I've chosen to give you my full proxy when it comes to anything to do with nerd things like.... well, whatever this field of study is.

Thanks for taking the time to go through this point by point. :thumbup:

Any fat scientist...
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

towny wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:34 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:48 pm
Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:17 am If the proponents of the lab theory didn't go full retard and try to prove that the virus was engineered in the face of lots of evidence it wasn't, all whilst attacking pretty much every coronavirus researcher on social media, they'd be far more persuasive.

It's very clear the CCP both covered up the early stages of the pandemic and didn't respond effectively, and there's now likey zero chance that the pandemic's origins will ever be truly uncovered. That's almost entirely on the CCP, but Western conspiracy theorists aren't helping.
That is also a pile of crap. If you look at the response in our own countries to this very day they have knocked our response out of the park.

If you disagree you are being dishonest
Except it's not a pile of crap, is it?
Oh, it is, and it's a line thrown out there to make us feel better about our handling.

Virus discovered 31st of December. WHO informed and global communication begins. Genome circulated worldwide on the 6th of January. Prof Ferguson even heads to Twitter thanking his Chinese counterparts for the swift circulation and the personal communication on the subject matter in the days prior.
Chinese CDC note on the 15th, they have yet to see evidence of P2P transmission but early days and monitoring it. Like all coronavirus it was expected and being monitored for.

When discovered and with fear of the New Year, lockdown implemented. Then they rest of the world ignored it and sat on their hands for 2 months. The genome and communications from China all there but ignored.

When the shit hits the fan here, dicks heads, racists and dog-whistle racists resort of blaming Chinese people, make sweeping generalisations about all Chinese peoples and cultures in singular sweeping statements. And it went from there.

One of the chief cheerleaders of the racist bile was, of course, Trump, then closely following that was, of course, Australia; there is a number of reasons for this, egged on by Pompeo and his agenda, and of course just that naturally fair Dinkum Aussie racism. Only country in the eastern world that doesn't embrace its geographical region, it's people and can't even accept then natives of the land they invaded.
Now they cry foul that after they abuse China, relentlessly for months, the Chinese stop buying their shit..now the Aussies say they want war.

Have you ever met a more self absorbed and bigoted bunch of halfwits?
Yanks will happily whisper sweet nothings in your ears so you keep barking at China, but they sure as hell won't step in and fill that trade gap for doing it.

Right bunch of Rocket scientists about to implode on rear entry.
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shanky
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by shanky »

ping

100 renminbi has been deposited in your account
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CrazyIslander
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by CrazyIslander »

Either China deliberately released it or they deliberately allowed it to spread around the world.

The biggest question, why didn't spread nationwide in China? For an infectious disease which started early December 2019 it didn't spread in China to the extend elsewhere. Considering the population density and unrestricted movements of people. You'd expect the virus to be out of conttol by the time they made the announcement to the world in late Jan 2020.

It seems they began restrictions a month before announcing it to the world. But allowed overseas travel at the same time. It's plausible that it was a deliberate release in a control environment within China and allowing to travel. We only knew it originated from Wuhan because of early whistleblowers reporting it, doctors who have since been silenced or have died. Without those early reports the origin of the virus would've been disputed.
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

CrazyIslander wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:01 am Either China deliberately released it or they deliberately allowed it to spread around the world.

The biggest question, why didn't spread nationwide in China? For an infectious disease which started early December 2019 it didn't spread in China to the extend elsewhere. Considering the population density and unrestricted movements of people. You'd expect the virus to be out of conttol by the time they made the announcement to the world in late Jan 2020.

It seems they began restrictions a month before announcing it to the world. But allowed overseas travel at the same time. 0 and allowing to travel. We only knew it originated from Wuhan because of early whistleblowers reporting it, doctors who have since been silenced or have died. Without those early reports the origin of the virus would've been disputed.
You've no clue, you views is based on feelz and them feelz is because you don't like Chinese folk.

Listen, they've no clue, no masks, mask, then great vaccine, now crap vaccine, have this one instead, and the latest ... it's now an airborne virus ...long after it wasn't an airborne virus.
Stop trusting the idiots on tv with every word.

They won't even change advice on masks and gatherings with the latest information; they are in too deep with this BS.

You are being bluffed and blaming China for all your problems and not looking closer to home is being the useful idiot they want to you be.

You are a nut with dangerously stupid views.
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Grandpa
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Grandpa »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:35 pm Oh, it is, and it's a line thrown out there to make us feel better about our handling.

Virus discovered 31st of December. WHO informed and global communication begins. Genome circulated worldwide on the 6th of January. Prof Ferguson even heads to Twitter thanking his Chinese counterparts for the swift circulation and the personal communication on the subject matter in the days prior.
Chinese CDC note on the 15th, they have yet to see evidence of P2P transmission but early days and monitoring it. Like all coronavirus it was expected and being monitored for.

When discovered and with fear of the New Year, lockdown implemented. Then they rest of the world ignored it and sat on their hands for 2 months. The genome and communications from China all there but ignored.

When the shit hits the fan here, dicks heads, racists and dog-whistle racists resort of blaming Chinese people, make sweeping generalisations about all Chinese peoples and cultures in singular sweeping statements. And it went from there.

One of the chief cheerleaders of the racist bile was, of course, Trump, then closely following that was, of course, Australia; there is a number of reasons for this, egged on by Pompeo and his agenda, and of course just that naturally fair Dinkum Aussie racism. Only country in the eastern world that doesn't embrace its geographical region, it's people and can't even accept then natives of the land they invaded.
Now they cry foul that after they abuse China, relentlessly for months, the Chinese stop buying their shit..now the Aussies say they want war.

Have you ever met a more self absorbed and bigoted bunch of halfwits?
Yanks will happily whisper sweet nothings in your ears so you keep barking at China, but they sure as hell won't step in and fill that trade gap for doing it.

Right bunch of Rocket scientists about to implode on rear entry.
You are correct. And the West were culpable for ignoring that initial help.. or at least procrastinating over it...
Though the subsequent clean up of the wet market and delays of allowing WHO investigators in etc.. do you see that as a reaction to the way they were treated... or something more sinister?

Also the way they tried to gag their own doctors who first discovered the outbreak? Bit suspect too?
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CrazyIslander
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by CrazyIslander »

Dozy wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:11 am
CrazyIslander wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:01 am Either China deliberately released it or they deliberately allowed it to spread around the world.

The biggest question, why didn't spread nationwide in China? For an infectious disease which started early December 2019 it didn't spread in China to the extend elsewhere. Considering the population density and unrestricted movements of people. You'd expect the virus to be out of conttol by the time they made the announcement to the world in late Jan 2020.

It seems they began restrictions a month before announcing it to the world. But allowed overseas travel at the same time. 0 and allowing to travel. We only knew it originated from Wuhan because of early whistleblowers reporting it, doctors who have since been silenced or have died. Without those early reports the origin of the virus would've been disputed.
You've no clue, you views is based on feelz and them feelz is because you don't like Chinese folk.

Listen, they've no clue, no masks, mask, then great vaccine, now crap vaccine, have this one instead, and the latest ... it's now an airborne virus ...long after it wasn't an airborne virus.
Stop trusting the idiots on tv with every word.

They won't even change advice on masks and gatherings with the latest information; they are in too deep with this BS.

You are being bluffed and blaming China for all your problems and not looking closer to home is being the useful idiot they want to you be.

You are a nut with dangerously stupid views.
Wtf... Don't even understand your post.
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TheFrog
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by TheFrog »

Dozy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:35 pm
towny wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:34 pm
Dozy wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:48 pm
Bindi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:17 am If the proponents of the lab theory didn't go full retard and try to prove that the virus was engineered in the face of lots of evidence it wasn't, all whilst attacking pretty much every coronavirus researcher on social media, they'd be far more persuasive.

It's very clear the CCP both covered up the early stages of the pandemic and didn't respond effectively, and there's now likey zero chance that the pandemic's origins will ever be truly uncovered. That's almost entirely on the CCP, but Western conspiracy theorists aren't helping.
That is also a pile of crap. If you look at the response in our own countries to this very day they have knocked our response out of the park.

If you disagree you are being dishonest
Except it's not a pile of crap, is it?
Oh, it is, and it's a line thrown out there to make us feel better about our handling.

Virus discovered 31st of December. WHO informed and global communication begins. Genome circulated worldwide on the 6th of January. Prof Ferguson even heads to Twitter thanking his Chinese counterparts for the swift circulation and the personal communication on the subject matter in the days prior.
Chinese CDC note on the 15th, they have yet to see evidence of P2P transmission but early days and monitoring it. Like all coronavirus it was expected and being monitored for.

When discovered and with fear of the New Year, lockdown implemented. Then they rest of the world ignored it and sat on their hands for 2 months. The genome and communications from China all there but ignored.

When the shit hits the fan here, dicks heads, racists and dog-whistle racists resort of blaming Chinese people, make sweeping generalisations about all Chinese peoples and cultures in singular sweeping statements. And it went from there.

One of the chief cheerleaders of the racist bile was, of course, Trump, then closely following that was, of course, Australia; there is a number of reasons for this, egged on by Pompeo and his agenda, and of course just that naturally fair Dinkum Aussie racism. Only country in the eastern world that doesn't embrace its geographical region, it's people and can't even accept then natives of the land they invaded.
Now they cry foul that after they abuse China, relentlessly for months, the Chinese stop buying their shit..now the Aussies say they want war.

Have you ever met a more self absorbed and bigoted bunch of halfwits?
Yanks will happily whisper sweet nothings in your ears so you keep barking at China, but they sure as hell won't step in and fill that trade gap for doing it.

Right bunch of Rocket scientists about to implode on rear entry.
You'd be credible if you didn't yourself indulge in sweeping generalizations.

Look, I like Chinese people, spent 6 years of my life there and have numerous friends.

But they are the first ones to tell you not to believe everything their government tells you.

Trump's attempt to hide his failure at controlling COVID19 by blaming China and indulging in slurs that were not worthy of a President were outrageous.

But we don't know and will never know all the truth about the outbreak in Wuhan.
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Ted.
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Ted. »

guy smiley wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:03 am After reading this intense and technically rich article, I'm saying it came from a lab... after being highly sceptical of the conspiracy theory nature of the assertion initially. Oh, that and Trump said it so covfefe, right?

Link here
Nicholas Wade is a science writer, editor, and author who has worked on the staff of Nature, Science, and, for many years, the New York Times....
This is a long article, far too long to reproduce here in full so the mouth breathers can quote it repeatedly. It's full of technical explanations and descriptions that are both rewarding and alarming. It's well worth a read and I heartily recommend it.

Snapshot conclusion...
Neither the natural emergence nor the lab escape hypothesis can yet be ruled out. There is still no direct evidence for either. So no definitive conclusion can be reached.

That said, the available evidence leans more strongly in one direction than the other. Readers will form their own opinion. But it seems to me that proponents of lab escape can explain all the available facts about SARS2 considerably more easily than can those who favor natural emergence.

It’s documented that researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were doing gain-of-function experiments designed to make coronaviruses infect human cells and humanized mice. This is exactly the kind of experiment from which a SARS2-like virus could have emerged. The researchers were not vaccinated against the viruses under study, and they were working in the minimal safety conditions of a BSL2 laboratory. So escape of a virus would not be at all surprising. In all of China, the pandemic broke out on the doorstep of the Wuhan institute. The virus was already well adapted to humans, as expected for a virus grown in humanized mice. It possessed an unusual enhancement, a furin cleavage site, which is not possessed by any other known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, and this site included a double arginine codon also unknown among beta-coronaviruses. What more evidence could you want, aside from the presently unobtainable lab records documenting SARS2’s creation?

Proponents of natural emergence have a rather harder story to tell. The plausibility of their case rests on a single surmise, the expected parallel between the emergence of SARS2 and that of SARS1 and MERS. But none of the evidence expected in support of such a parallel history has yet emerged. No one has found the bat population that was the source of SARS2, if indeed it ever infected bats. No intermediate host has presented itself, despite an intensive search by Chinese authorities that included the testing of 80,000 animals. There is no evidence of the virus making multiple independent jumps from its intermediate host to people, as both the SARS1 and MERS viruses did. There is no evidence from hospital surveillance records of the epidemic gathering strength in the population as the virus evolved. There is no explanation of why a natural epidemic should break out in Wuhan and nowhere else. There is no good explanation of how the virus acquired its furin cleavage site, which no other SARS-related beta-coronavirus possesses, nor why the site is composed of human-preferred codons. The natural emergence theory battles a bristling array of implausibilities.
The main problem in determining what is is, lab or nature, being that the Chinese have yet to come clean on the circumstances let alone their own dealings with the virus once is was out an about. They have simply lied through their back teeth every step of the way.

A plausible explanation either way would be they, the Chinese, were mucking about with either the virus or the animals that carry it in a lab. The virus got out due to lax PPE protocols, or someone took it upon themselves to take one of the beasties home for a fry-up. In either case, et voila, a pandemic is born and the bullshit machine fires up.
towny
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by towny »

shanky wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:37 pm ping

100 renminbi has been deposited in your account
:lol:
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MungoMan
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by MungoMan »

CrazyIslander wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:40 am
Dozy wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:11 am
CrazyIslander wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 12:01 am Either China deliberately released it or they deliberately allowed it to spread around the world.

The biggest question, why didn't spread nationwide in China? For an infectious disease which started early December 2019 it didn't spread in China to the extend elsewhere. Considering the population density and unrestricted movements of people. You'd expect the virus to be out of conttol by the time they made the announcement to the world in late Jan 2020.

It seems they began restrictions a month before announcing it to the world. But allowed overseas travel at the same time. 0 and allowing to travel. We only knew it originated from Wuhan because of early whistleblowers reporting it, doctors who have since been silenced or have died. Without those early reports the origin of the virus would've been disputed.
You've no clue, you views is based on feelz and them feelz is because you don't like Chinese folk.

Listen, they've no clue, no masks, mask, then great vaccine, now crap vaccine, have this one instead, and the latest ... it's now an airborne virus ...long after it wasn't an airborne virus.
Stop trusting the idiots on tv with every word.

They won't even change advice on masks and gatherings with the latest information; they are in too deep with this BS.

You are being bluffed and blaming China for all your problems and not looking closer to home is being the useful idiot they want to you be.

You are a nut with dangerously stupid views.
Wtf... Don't even understand your post.
Congratulations! You have just joined a club with many, many members!!
Morgan14
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Morgan14 »

Intelligence on Sick Staff At Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate on Covid-19 Origin - WSJ

https://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligen ... _lead_pos7
WASHINGTON—Three researchers from China’s Wuhan Institute of Virology became sick enough in November 2019 that they sought hospital care, according to a previously undisclosed U.S. intelligence report that could add weight to growing calls for a fuller probe of whether the Covid-19 virus may have escaped from the laboratory.

The details of the reporting go beyond a State Department fact sheet, issued during the final days of the Trump administration, which said that several researchers at the lab, a center for the study of coronaviruses and other pathogens, became sick in autumn 2019 “with symptoms consistent with both Covid-19 and common seasonal illness.”

The disclosure of the number of researchers, the timing of their illnesses and their hospital visits come on the eve of a meeting of the World Health Organization’s decision-making body, which is expected to discuss the next phase of an investigation into Covid-19’s origins.

Current and former officials familiar with the intelligence about the lab researchers expressed differing views about the strength of the supporting evidence for the assessment. One person said that it was provided by an international partner and was potentially significant but still in need of further investigation and additional corroboration.

Another person described the intelligence as stronger. “The information that we had coming from the various sources was of exquisite quality. It was very precise. What it didn’t tell you was exactly why they got sick,” he said, referring to the researchers.
Rest is behind paywall, I don't have access
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

https://twitter.com/Gandie03/status/139 ... 49350?s=19

And now the army base in Korea story also
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

If as so many I loons claim, a lab can create a virus that can move seamlessly between the population, emitting the virus like radiation, and is made by state actors....then no matter who is claiming what......if true, then all the bigger nations, have the ability to utterly destroy nations without firing a shot. This shows that that there has never been a time where it more important for nations to have dialogue on different positions and to stop interfering in other countries business...as it would show just how simple it is to shut the whole thing down.

Saying that, I am still skeptical on the lab leak theory.
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Grandpa
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Grandpa »

Dozy wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:20 pm If as so many I loons claim, a lab can create a virus that can move seamlessly between the population, emitting the virus like radiation, and is made by state actors....then no matter who is claiming what......if true, then all the bigger nations, have the ability to utterly destroy nations without firing a shot. This shows that that there has never been a time where it more important for nations to have dialogue on different positions and to stop interfering in other countries business...as it would show just how simple it is to shut the whole thing down.

Saying that, I am still skeptical on the lab leak theory.
A lab leak of a naturally occurring virus being experimented with? Plausible.

Or..

A lab leak of a man-made bio-weapon? Implausible.
iarmhiman
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by iarmhiman »

The Wuhan virology lab in the spotlight again?

Not surprised.
Dozy
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Re: COVID-19... lab or nature?

Post by Dozy »

iarmhiman wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:04 pm The Wuhan virology lab in the spotlight again?

Not surprised.
So is Fort Detrick; depends if you only look at information in the dishes that are offered up for tasting
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