The death throes of fossil fuels

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Clogs
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:42 pm Hmmmm.

A lot of that does not look good.

It doesn't make him wrong on this particular issue. But yeah, a lot of that is nonsense and doesn't reflect well on him.
He is competing directly with H2 and using whatever point of difference to his advantage. Typical sales tactic. Sell the value of your product, highlight the differences that favour you and ignore the benefits of the other product.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Clogs wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:14 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:42 pm Hmmmm.

A lot of that does not look good.

It doesn't make him wrong on this particular issue. But yeah, a lot of that is nonsense and doesn't reflect well on him.
He is competing directly with H2 and using whatever point of difference to his advantage. Typical sales tactic. Sell the value of your product, highlight the differences that favour you and ignore the benefits of the other product.
I do realise that.

The thing is, it doesn't necessarily automatically make him wrong.

As I've said before, I'm pretty confident that he has actually thought about the pros and cons pretty profoundly, no matter what impression he might give in trolly tweets. Whatever you think of him, it's pretty un-Musk to stubbornly persist with an inferior tech.

One also has to consider that hydrogen cars are not necessarily his competition any more than rival non-hydrogen cars. He wants electric cars to succeed because he sees that as the best option for the future. Infrastructure and wide-spread adoption is part of that. Hydrogen fuel stations replacing petrol stations is not part of the plan, and I'm guessing in his view, just an unnecessary distraction and step side-ways instead of a move forwards for the entire automotive industry.
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Farva
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Farva »

Musk runs a battery company.
It’s got huge upside. Batteries are very much in need going forward.
But he will attach hydrogen as a fuel source because he sees it as competition.
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hermie
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by hermie »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:29 pm
Clogs wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:14 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:42 pm Hmmmm.

A lot of that does not look good.

It doesn't make him wrong on this particular issue. But yeah, a lot of that is nonsense and doesn't reflect well on him.
He is competing directly with H2 and using whatever point of difference to his advantage. Typical sales tactic. Sell the value of your product, highlight the differences that favour you and ignore the benefits of the other product.
I do realise that.

The thing is, it doesn't necessarily automatically make him wrong.

As I've said before, I'm pretty confident that he has actually thought about the pros and cons pretty profoundly, no matter what impression he might give in trolly tweets. Whatever you think of him, it's pretty un-Musk to stubbornly persist with an inferior tech.

One also has to consider that hydrogen cars are not necessarily his competition any more than rival non-hydrogen cars. He wants electric cars to succeed because he sees that as the best option for the future. Infrastructure and wide-spread adoption is part of that. Hydrogen fuel stations replacing petrol stations is not part of the plan, and I'm guessing in his view, just an unnecessary distraction and step side-ways instead of a move forwards for the entire automotive industry.
You see your bum chum Musk paid no taxes in 2018? What a great guy.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by MungoMan »

Farva wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:20 pm Musk runs a battery company.
It’s got huge upside. Batteries are very much in need going forward.
But he will attach hydrogen as a fuel source because he sees it as competition.
Musk is a fúcken weirdo. If he said Sunday fell on a Sunday next week, I’d immediately check the calendar.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Mog The Almighty »

hermie wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:39 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:29 pm
Clogs wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:14 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:42 pm Hmmmm.

A lot of that does not look good.

It doesn't make him wrong on this particular issue. But yeah, a lot of that is nonsense and doesn't reflect well on him.
He is competing directly with H2 and using whatever point of difference to his advantage. Typical sales tactic. Sell the value of your product, highlight the differences that favour you and ignore the benefits of the other product.
I do realise that.

The thing is, it doesn't necessarily automatically make him wrong.

As I've said before, I'm pretty confident that he has actually thought about the pros and cons pretty profoundly, no matter what impression he might give in trolly tweets. Whatever you think of him, it's pretty un-Musk to stubbornly persist with an inferior tech.

One also has to consider that hydrogen cars are not necessarily his competition any more than rival non-hydrogen cars. He wants electric cars to succeed because he sees that as the best option for the future. Infrastructure and wide-spread adoption is part of that. Hydrogen fuel stations replacing petrol stations is not part of the plan, and I'm guessing in his view, just an unnecessary distraction and step side-ways instead of a move forwards for the entire automotive industry.
You see your bum chum Musk paid no taxes in 2018? What a great guy.
This is hardly news for rich people and likely would not be for you either if you had that money.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/08/bezos-m ... taxes.html

I don't agree with it, I'm just saying it's hardly something unique to Musk.

For whatever it's worth, Musk appears to have paid the most out of the lot of them. Still not enough, but what are you going to do?
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by shanky »

Well, for one thing, I might take it as evidence that he acts in his own best interests…

rather than in some altruistic, neutral objectivity
:lol:
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Mog The Almighty »

shanky wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:12 pm Well, for one thing, I might take it as evidence that he acts in his own best interests…

rather than in some altruistic, neutral objectivity
:lol:
Of course he is a business man.

I do believe his end-goals are unusually altruistic however. Before he made a cent he is on record of having a few niche aims, including but not limited to the promotion of renewable energy and populating Mars.

Recently he put up $100 million prize-money for the best idea for carbon-capture technology.

The guy is not perfect, he's weird, a troll and a bit of a dick. But he's not all that bad either.

At least Tesla need not have to install nets around their buildings whereChinese slave laborers regularly attempt to leap to their death to escape their life of monotony.
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hermie
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by hermie »

I'm obviously totally naive but I was genuinely shocked. Zero income tax, none. There's surely a serious amount of cartwheels that need to be done to end up at that. A supposedly altruistic person who would rather borrow on his wealth and pay interest to banks than contribute in a civic way. Might have expected it from Bezos.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by towny »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:04 pm
hermie wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:39 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:29 pm
Clogs wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:14 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:42 pm Hmmmm.

A lot of that does not look good.

It doesn't make him wrong on this particular issue. But yeah, a lot of that is nonsense and doesn't reflect well on him.
He is competing directly with H2 and using whatever point of difference to his advantage. Typical sales tactic. Sell the value of your product, highlight the differences that favour you and ignore the benefits of the other product.
I do realise that.

The thing is, it doesn't necessarily automatically make him wrong.

As I've said before, I'm pretty confident that he has actually thought about the pros and cons pretty profoundly, no matter what impression he might give in trolly tweets. Whatever you think of him, it's pretty un-Musk to stubbornly persist with an inferior tech.

One also has to consider that hydrogen cars are not necessarily his competition any more than rival non-hydrogen cars. He wants electric cars to succeed because he sees that as the best option for the future. Infrastructure and wide-spread adoption is part of that. Hydrogen fuel stations replacing petrol stations is not part of the plan, and I'm guessing in his view, just an unnecessary distraction and step side-ways instead of a move forwards for the entire automotive industry.
You see your bum chum Musk paid no taxes in 2018? What a great guy.
This is hardly news for rich people and likely would not be for you either if you had that money.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/08/bezos-m ... taxes.html

I don't agree with it, I'm just saying it's hardly something unique to Musk.

For whatever it's worth, Musk appears to have paid the most out of the lot of them. Still not enough, but what are you going to do?
Does anyone in the world pay income tax on their wealth. No?
I’m all for taxing rich people more, but we need to get some perspective. Warren Buffett is a tight arse! He probably didn’t take much of an income - he still lives in the same house he didn’t want to buy 40 years ago.

I think we all need to take a few deep breaths.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by pigaaaa »

Back on topic:
https://www.energy.gov/articles/secret ... ghs-toward
First Energy Earthshot Aims to Slash the Cost of Clean Hydrogen by 80% to $1 per Kilogram in One Decade

WASHINGTON, D.C. — Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm today launched the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) Energy Earthshots Initiative, to accelerate breakthroughs of more abundant, affordable, and reliable clean energy solutions within the decade. The first Energy Earthshot—Hydrogen Shot—seeks to reduce the cost of clean hydrogen by 80% to $1 per kilogram in one decade. Achieving these targets will help America tackle the climate crisis, and more quickly reach the Biden-Harris Administration’s goal of net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 while creating good-paying, union jobs and growing the economy.

“The Energy Earthshots are an all-hands-on-deck call for innovation, collaboration and acceleration of our clean energy economy by tackling the toughest remaining barriers to quickly deploy emerging clean energy technologies at scale,” said Secretary Granholm. “First up: Hydrogen Shot, which sets an ambitious yet achievable cost target to accelerate innovations and spur demand of clean hydrogen. Clean hydrogen is a game changer. It will help decarbonize high-polluting heavy-duty and industrial sectors, while delivering good-paying clean energy jobs and realizing a net-zero economy by 2050.”

The Hydrogen Shot establishes a framework and foundation for clean hydrogen deployment in the American Jobs Plan, which includes support for demonstration projects. Industries are beginning to implement clean hydrogen to reduce emissions, but there are still many hurdles to deploying it at scale. Currently, hydrogen from renewable energy costs about $5 per kilogram. By achieving Hydrogen Shot’s 80% cost reduction goal, we can unlock a five-fold increase in demand by increasing clean hydrogen production from pathways such as renewables, nuclear, and thermal conversion. This would create more clean energy jobs, reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and position America to compete in the clean energy market on a global scale.

Today’s announcement follows Secretary Granholm’s commitment, made during President Biden’s Leaders Summit on Climate, to propel next-generation technologies in key clean energy sectors. The Energy Earthshots will drive integrated program development across DOE’s science, applied energy offices, and ARPA-E to address tough technological challenges and cost hurdles, and rapidly advance solutions to help achieve our climate and economic competitiveness goals.

As part of the launch, at the DOE’s Hydrogen Program Annual Merit Review and Peer Evaluation Meeting, DOE’s Hydrogen Program issued a Request for Information (RFI) on viable hydrogen demonstrations, including specific locations, that can help lower the cost of hydrogen, reduce carbon emissions and local air pollution, create good-paying jobs, and provide benefits to disadvantaged communities. Topics in the RFI include:

Hydrogen Production, Resources, and Infrastructure
End Users for Hydrogen Based on Specific Regions, Cost, and Value Propositions
Greenhouse Gas and Other Pollutant Emissions Reduction Potential
Diversity, Equity, Inclusion (DEI), Jobs, and Environmental Justice
Science and Innovation Needs and Challenges
Responses are due July 7, 2021, by 5 p.m. ET. For more information about this RFI, visit EERE Exchange. For more information on DOE’s efforts to enable at-scale clean hydrogen, visit the Hydrogen Program and the H2@Scale pages.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by carlos_c »

If this really works - 10 min full charge for an EV....will make a big difference

https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/14/ ... batteries/
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Farva »

$1 /kg in a decade? Aggressive but will be interesting to see if it happens.
For me it’s the transport costs that will be the challenge. The production costs will come right down, particularly if it’s green H2.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by bimboman »

hermie wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:19 pm I'm obviously totally naive but I was genuinely shocked. Zero income tax, none. There's surely a serious amount of cartwheels that need to be done to end up at that. A supposedly altruistic person who would rather borrow on his wealth and pay interest to banks than contribute in a civic way. Might have expected it from Bezos.


Shall we also ignore the billions being spent of tax payers money year in and out keeping Tesla solvent. It’s all nonsense.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by pigaaaa »

Farva wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:17 pm $1 /kg in a decade? Aggressive but will be interesting to see if it happens.
For me it’s the transport costs that will be the challenge. The production costs will come right down, particularly if it’s green H2.
Agreed on both counts.

Re green h2 production costs - this in my opinion won’t obviously be possible everywhere by that time - only in most favourable locations from renewable energy resources availability perspective. But having said that there are already project promoters going around Europe trying to find off takers for green h2 offering 1.5 EUR/kg as early as 2025. See also recent projections by Siemens Gamesa for green h2 production costs.

Re transportation costs: pipelines are the way to go. Probably the only viable solution for large scale off takers (like industry).
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by pigaaaa »

carlos_c wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:05 am If this really works - 10 min full charge for an EV....will make a big difference

https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/14/ ... batteries/
I am not saying that is BS, but I have my doubts.

Standard chargers are 80 kW. Tesla 3 has a battery of 75 kWh.
You can innovate as much as you like, but the THEORETICAL limit for that setup is around 1 hour or around 15 minutes with a fast charger.

That is the end goal you can possibly aim for. If someone is promising more then either they are lying or are not telling everything (like they assume a very small car or a very large charger not representative of the average case).
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by guy smiley »

Battery performance is going to be an interesting arena to watch, regardless. Obviously an appealing field to make any sort of breakthrough in with the pay offs considerable.

Meanwhile...

https://www.autoconnectedcar.com/2021/0 ... s-angeles/
The Port of Los Angeles and its partners are launching a new era of pollution-free goods movement with the debut of five new hydrogen-powered fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEV) and the grand opening of two hydrogen fueling stations. Under the $82.5 million Shore-to-Store (S2S) project, more than a dozen public and private sector partners have teamed up for a 12-month demonstration of the zero-emissions Class 8 trucks and will expand the project to include five more hydrogen-fueled heavy-duty trucks, two battery-electric yard tractors, and two battery-electric forklifts.

The large-scale, multiyear demonstration is designed to advance the Port’s Clean Air Action Plan goals and help California achieve statewide climate change, air quality improvement and sustainability targets for reducing greenhouse gases and toxic air emissions. The project is designed to assess the operational and technical feasibility of the vehicles in a heavy-duty setting, as well as to expand infrastructure to support hydrogen throughout the region.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:28 pm
hermie wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:19 pm I'm obviously totally naive but I was genuinely shocked. Zero income tax, none. There's surely a serious amount of cartwheels that need to be done to end up at that. A supposedly altruistic person who would rather borrow on his wealth and pay interest to banks than contribute in a civic way. Might have expected it from Bezos.


Shall we also ignore the billions being spent of tax payers money year in and out keeping Tesla solvent. It’s all nonsense.
Only if we ignore the many, many more billions being spent propping up the car manufacturing industry in every country, as well as the subsidies as tax breaks to the oil companies, coal miners and obsolete power generation.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Farva »

pigaaaa wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:24 pm
Farva wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:17 pm $1 /kg in a decade? Aggressive but will be interesting to see if it happens.
For me it’s the transport costs that will be the challenge. The production costs will come right down, particularly if it’s green H2.
Agreed on both counts.

Re green h2 production costs - this in my opinion won’t obviously be possible everywhere by that time - only in most favourable locations from renewable energy resources availability perspective. But having said that there are already project promoters going around Europe trying to find off takers for green h2 offering 1.5 EUR/kg as early as 2025. See also recent projections by Siemens Gamesa for green h2 production costs.

Re transportation costs: pipelines are the way to go. Probably the only viable solution for large scale off takers (like industry).
For a kg of green H2, my rule of thumb is that it takes about 50-60 kWh to make a kg of green H2. So that needs a price per kWh of around 2c to 3c excluding the actual fixed costs to achieve $1.50. One of the H2 gurus I work with told me he thought $10 /MWh would be needed to make it affordable.
Right now we are seeing some middle eastern PV plants signed PPAs of around $13 /MWh so the cost of power is almost there in sweet spots (although I dont know what the background of that is).
Here in Australia we are more like the $30/ MWh range so have a way to go to get costs down but tips are that we will be close by 2030.
Solar seems to offer the most cost effective in specific locations but I think it will be wind that gets large scale production up.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by guy smiley »

Airbus are working on practical hydrogen fuel systems for jet airliners...

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -airliners
Airbus is stepping up its work on hydrogen fuel tanks for airliners by setting up a pair of Zero-Emission Development Centers (ZDEC) at Bremen in Germany and Nantes in France. The facilities will aim to establish a cost-competitive approach to manufacturing the cryogenic tanks needed for the Zero E hydrogen-powered airliner that the European airframer is aiming to bring to the market in 2035.

In today’s announcement, Airbus said the ZEDC units will be fully operational by 2023. Their initial goal is to have some liquid hydrogen storage tanks to be used for a first flight test scheduled for 2025.

According to Airbus, its Bremen site already has extensive experience with liquid hydrogen systems through its work supporting the group’s Defence and Space business and the Ariane space division. This facility will focus on system installation and cryogenic testing of the tanks.

The Nantes facility specializes in metallic structures used around the center wing boxes of aircraft. It will be responsible for developing metallic and composite technology to be integrated into the hydrogen tanks. This operation will be supported by engineering expertise at the nearby Nantes Technocentre.

The fuel tanks will be a safety-critical component in the planned Zero E airliners. Liquid hydrogen is more challenging from the point of view of storing as it needs to be kept at minus 418-deg F. The gas needs to be liquefied to be efficiently stored in the aircraft, and the tanks need to be able to withstand repeated thermal and pressure cycling. Initially, the tanks are likely to be metallic, but Airbus is exploring the potential to use carbon-fiber-reinforced polymer composites.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by eldanielfire »

towny wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:47 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:28 pm
hermie wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:19 pm I'm obviously totally naive but I was genuinely shocked. Zero income tax, none. There's surely a serious amount of cartwheels that need to be done to end up at that. A supposedly altruistic person who would rather borrow on his wealth and pay interest to banks than contribute in a civic way. Might have expected it from Bezos.


Shall we also ignore the billions being spent of tax payers money year in and out keeping Tesla solvent. It’s all nonsense.
Only if we ignore the many, many more billions being spent propping up the car manufacturing industry in every country, as well as the subsidies as tax breaks to the oil companies, coal miners and obsolete power generation.
It's a point thrown at Bimboman before. The Fossil Fuel industry has long been heavily subsidized in some form or another. That is before we go into the costs of wars etc which have been blatantly wages due to the influence of oil. Then there is the costs associated with global warming,
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by towny »

eldanielfire wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:32 am
towny wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:47 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:28 pm
hermie wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:19 pm I'm obviously totally naive but I was genuinely shocked. Zero income tax, none. There's surely a serious amount of cartwheels that need to be done to end up at that. A supposedly altruistic person who would rather borrow on his wealth and pay interest to banks than contribute in a civic way. Might have expected it from Bezos.


Shall we also ignore the billions being spent of tax payers money year in and out keeping Tesla solvent. It’s all nonsense.
Only if we ignore the many, many more billions being spent propping up the car manufacturing industry in every country, as well as the subsidies as tax breaks to the oil companies, coal miners and obsolete power generation.
It's a point thrown at Bimboman before. The Fossil Fuel industry has long been heavily subsidized in some form or another. That is before we go into the costs of wars etc which have been blatantly wages due to the influence of oil. Then there is the costs associated with global warming,
Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’. But if he’s a reasonable, thoughtful being that uses facts and not merely consensus to craft his opinions, then there must be some adjustments to those opinions that are proven incorrect.

Maybe I’m being too harsh. He had a crack at subsidising a technology to create a false economy and perhaps there is some truth to what he said. I didn’t mean to, but perhaps I did the equivalent of ‘whataboutism’ to dismiss a valid argument.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by grouch »

Farva wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 5:34 am $A10 not $US10.
Im an Aussie.
Thats EUR6. We are aligned there.

And you are completely right about hydrogen for electricity storage being a long way off. There needs to be a technology breakthrough or two.
In Australia Im not even convinced we will ever get there. For me hydrogen offers an export opportunity only, a way to export our renewable resources. It will be needed in Europe and East Asia though.
I can also see it used in remote plant in the next year or two. I know a few equipment owners moving that way now. But in general use for transport - it needs a source really, and like we have both said, the only projects today are pilots.
Therein lies part of the problem , the other more significant problem is energy density.
Hydrogen just doesn't hack it .
For commercial/ productive economy transportation.
The tank doesn't hold enough kJoules of energy.
It's the most energy expensive gas to liquify and cost of safety compliance of liquid hydrogen fuelled vehicles doesn't bear thinking about.
The Lavo type hydrogen generators have been trialled & dismissed due to the bulk and danger of the metal hydrides the contain in a dynamic scenario.

New technolgy will evolve, but it evolved faster in the 2kteens when oil was $100USD a barrel.

The electrification of private/non-productive vehicles is non-negotiable BUT any workable plan has to project a 30 plus year phase out of liquid fuels in heavy transport AND a radical reduction in air travel , the fastest growing CO2 source.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Farva »

The Murali just hit 1000km range on a tank. Fuel density is fine.
I think there are some transport issues to be overcome - with say a 100 MW wind farm you might expect to produce 20T or so of hydrogen a day. How do you transport that H2 to Japan where they want it? By ship? Sure, but it needs to be either under high pressure, low temperature or as ammonia which will have it’s own health risk.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by derriz »

I don't get the hydrogen hype at all. Hate Musk as much as the next man but he's right about hydrogen.

People have been pushing it for nearly a century and the same old problem resurface every time. It's the idea that just won't die despite a history of failure.

Basically the stuff is impossible to store and transport efficiently, safely and economically.

Liquifying hydrogen is phenomenally expensive and handling liquified hydrogen is dangerous and tricky. The promise of nano-material storage has failed to materialise in a form that doesn't add 100s of times the weight of stored hydrogen. You can also pressurize it to 700 bar and deal with the engineering challenges of managing a small-molecule gas at 700 bar - valves, tanks, pipework, materials, etc. are a high-tech challenge. You can use ammonia but it's nasty stuff to handle and it requires chemical processing to extract the H2.

Contrast with batteries/electricity: you can transport electricity across continents - soon the globe - instantly at the speed of light and at a marginal cost of zero and pretty much every household in the western world has a direct connection an electricity grid.

And hydrogen is not an efficient means to store energy - you'd be luck to recover 20% of the electricity require generating hydrogen using electrolysis after turning it back into electricity later via fuel cells.

While on that subject getting the energy out of hydrogen requires an oxygen source and an exhaust for the water vapour which for most applications is a huge inconvenience compared to batteries which work everywhere without either.

And when you take into account the weight for the storage system and fuel cell, hydrogen energy density isn't even that great compared to petrol. It's about 4 times more energy dense than current Li-ion batteries but basically hydrogen tech has been stuck at this level because of basic physics, while battery tech is advancing all the time. Solid-state batteries offer 2-4 times the energy density compared to Li-ion and fast charging and these are expected to appear in cars within two years. Once that happens hydrogen is completely dead.
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by guy smiley »

Hopium...


https://www.hopium.com/#intro_philosophy


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https://mpelembe.net/uk-business/?rkey= ... ilter=9768
Announced in October 2020 and produced in record time in the Linas-Montlhéry test workshop, this vehicle called Alpha 0, certifies the reliability of the fuel cell system. After the design and architecture phases, followed by the implementation of the various components within the vehicle, the prototype was able to be evaluated and perfected through bench and track tests. With a speed of 200 km/h (124 mph), this test version already borders on the performance promised by the Hopium Machina in its final form.

Alpha 0 also introduces for the first time the signature lighting, emblem of Hopium, whose shape is reminiscent of the stratification of hydrogen and the movement of waves on the surface of water.

The reveal of this technological showcase is a key step in the manufacturer's roadmap and confirms its ability to achieve the goals that have been set and meet the highest challenges. It is accompanied by the opening of an order book for the first 1,000 numbered units of Hopium Machina, whose reservation price is set at 410 euros, in reference to the spectral line of hydrogen.

The Hopium teams are already fully committed in carrying out the next steps, aiming to produce Hopium Machina on an industrial scale, with a new rendez-vous expected in the first quarter of 2022.

About Hopium

Olivier Lombard, the youngest winner of the 24 hours of Le Mans, founded Hopium, a manufacturer of high-end hydrogen-powered vehicles, as an achievement resulting from his experience acquired on the racing circuits.

With the automotive culture in his heritage, Olivier Lombard has driven for 7 years hydrogen-powered racing cars, making him the world's most experienced racer in this field.

As an open-air laboratory, the race has allowed Olivier Lombard and his team to reflect on new mobility solutions to meet today's environmental challenges. While the transportation sector alone is responsible for 20% of greenhouse gas emissions, the company is positioning itself as a player in climate change.

Hopium brings together a team of experts and leading partners at the forefront of innovation in the fields of hydrogen fuel cells, technology and automotive engineering.
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Hopium...
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shanky
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by shanky »

I see the Anti-hydroxxers are in the house
carlos_c
Posts: 258
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by carlos_c »

Well explained video on issues with Hydrogen powering ICE vehicle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPR50- ... edVerified
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eldanielfire
Posts: 34037
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by eldanielfire »

towny wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’.
I know he's called a contrarian a lot, but I personally don't think Bimboman is one. What he is is a right wing very pro-free market, pro corporation, pro no rules sort of neo-liberal conservative. E.g. a George Bush era conservative with more classic British cultural values. However he doesn't like being pinned down on his beliefs, mostly because they have been tried and don't work. But he wants to pretend they are sensible and moral ways to move forward all of the time.
towny
Posts: 22817
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Location: Perth

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by towny »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:39 pm
towny wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’.
I know he's called a contrarian a lot, but I personally don't think Bimboman is one. What he is is a right wing very pro-free market, pro corporation, pro no rules sort of neo-liberal conservative. E.g. a George Bush era conservative with more classic British cultural values. However he doesn't like being pinned down on his beliefs, mostly because they have been tried and don't work. But he wants to pretend they are sensible and moral ways to move forward all of the time.
He’s pro-market until talk goes to the USD and/or existing banking structure becoming redundant in the future - then he demonstrates anger at the suggestion and won’t consider the thought that it won’t go on forever.

I don’t think ‘conservative’ means economic left or right - I think it’s better applied to those that believe they have social, political and/or economic power, believe it’s a zero sum game, and resist change that may see this lost.

They’re angry and they don’t understand why.
bimboman
Posts: 72562
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by bimboman »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:39 pm
towny wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’.
I know he's called a contrarian a lot, but I personally don't think Bimboman is one. What he is is a right wing very pro-free market, pro corporation, pro no rules sort of neo-liberal conservative. E.g. a George Bush era conservative with more classic British cultural values. However he doesn't like being pinned down on his beliefs, mostly because they have been tried and don't work. But he wants to pretend they are sensible and moral ways to move forward all of the time.


Jesus, you’re all over the place again. Pro free markets are “new liberal conservative “ what ever the f uck that means.

I’ve no,real,interest in “cultural value’ of any description, and you’ll find no evidence in my posts of such.

My beliefs are the only ones that have worked consistently over history, less big state, more democracy, more local decisions and responsibilities.

I give not one shit for any “moral” equivalence either.


You don’t have the slightest grasp.
bimboman
Posts: 72562
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:58 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:39 pm
towny wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’.
I know he's called a contrarian a lot, but I personally don't think Bimboman is one. What he is is a right wing very pro-free market, pro corporation, pro no rules sort of neo-liberal conservative. E.g. a George Bush era conservative with more classic British cultural values. However he doesn't like being pinned down on his beliefs, mostly because they have been tried and don't work. But he wants to pretend they are sensible and moral ways to move forward all of the time.
He’s pro-market until talk goes to the USD and/or existing banking structure becoming redundant in the future - then he demonstrates anger at the suggestion and won’t consider the thought that it won’t go on forever.

I don’t think ‘conservative’ means economic left or right - I think it’s better applied to those that believe they have social, political and/or economic power, believe it’s a zero sum game, and resist change that may see this lost.

They’re angry and they don’t understand why.


I’m not “angry” you fool, all I do in regard to the conversation regarding crypto is point out that the status quo in both companies and particular the central state ain’t just ganna shrug and go away.

In this regard it’s similar to the arguments about fossil fuels , the great new technology isn’t going to happen in anything like the timeframes people think, the status quo and sheer practical logistics will dictate that.
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AND-y
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by AND-y »

:lol:
towny
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Location: Perth

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:04 pm
towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:58 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:39 pm
towny wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’.
I know he's called a contrarian a lot, but I personally don't think Bimboman is one. What he is is a right wing very pro-free market, pro corporation, pro no rules sort of neo-liberal conservative. E.g. a George Bush era conservative with more classic British cultural values. However he doesn't like being pinned down on his beliefs, mostly because they have been tried and don't work. But he wants to pretend they are sensible and moral ways to move forward all of the time.
He’s pro-market until talk goes to the USD and/or existing banking structure becoming redundant in the future - then he demonstrates anger at the suggestion and won’t consider the thought that it won’t go on forever.

I don’t think ‘conservative’ means economic left or right - I think it’s better applied to those that believe they have social, political and/or economic power, believe it’s a zero sum game, and resist change that may see this lost.

They’re angry and they don’t understand why.


I’m not “angry” you fool, all I do in regard to the conversation regarding crypto is point out that the status quo in both companies and particular the central state ain’t just ganna shrug and go away.

In this regard it’s similar to the arguments about fossil fuels , the great new technology isn’t going to happen in anything like the timeframes people think, the status quo and sheer practical logistics will dictate that.
🙂
I bet you thought the internet was a fad.
bimboman
Posts: 72562
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:07 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:04 pm
towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:58 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:39 pm
towny wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:50 am Interesting. So he’s heard of this before?

What’s his usual response? Does he apply this new knowledge to the topic and provide a more nuanced rationale or does he do what he seems to have done here - slink away without any acknowledgment?

Bimbo is a contrarian but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong, or perhaps I should say, I think he’s occasionally correct about some stuff when he takes on an ‘accepted belief’.
I know he's called a contrarian a lot, but I personally don't think Bimboman is one. What he is is a right wing very pro-free market, pro corporation, pro no rules sort of neo-liberal conservative. E.g. a George Bush era conservative with more classic British cultural values. However he doesn't like being pinned down on his beliefs, mostly because they have been tried and don't work. But he wants to pretend they are sensible and moral ways to move forward all of the time.
He’s pro-market until talk goes to the USD and/or existing banking structure becoming redundant in the future - then he demonstrates anger at the suggestion and won’t consider the thought that it won’t go on forever.

I don’t think ‘conservative’ means economic left or right - I think it’s better applied to those that believe they have social, political and/or economic power, believe it’s a zero sum game, and resist change that may see this lost.

They’re angry and they don’t understand why.


I’m not “angry” you fool, all I do in regard to the conversation regarding crypto is point out that the status quo in both companies and particular the central state ain’t just ganna shrug and go away.

In this regard it’s similar to the arguments about fossil fuels , the great new technology isn’t going to happen in anything like the timeframes people think, the status quo and sheer practical logistics will dictate that.
🙂
I bet you thought the internet was a fad.


Yeah, it was the way it replaced the previous internet that makes this such a useful comparison.
towny
Posts: 22817
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by towny »

I bet you didn't think the internet was going to have a massive impact I bet you derided those that said it was going to change everything. I bet you didn't want rugby to go pro. I bet you didn't want sponsors names on jerseys. I bet you were against gay marriage and I bet you support the monarchy.
bimboman
Posts: 72562
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Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:13 pm I bet you didn't think the internet was going to have a massive impact I bet you derided those that said it was going to change everything. I bet you didn't want rugby to go pro. I bet you didn't want sponsors names on jerseys. I bet you were against gay marriage and I bet you support the monarchy.

Again, I’ve expressed the opposite to almost all of those views.


At least you can lose those bets across the whole internet.
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Mog The Almighty
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Location: Stockholm

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by Mog The Almighty »

towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:13 pm I bet you didn't think the internet was going to have a massive impact I bet you derided those that said it was going to change everything. I bet you didn't want rugby to go pro. I bet you didn't want sponsors names on jerseys. I bet you were against gay marriage and I bet you support the monarchy.
I don't want sponsors names on jerseys. :x

At least not Test jerseys.
bimboman
Posts: 72562
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: The death throes of fossil fuels

Post by bimboman »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:01 pm
towny wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:13 pm I bet you didn't think the internet was going to have a massive impact I bet you derided those that said it was going to change everything. I bet you didn't want rugby to go pro. I bet you didn't want sponsors names on jerseys. I bet you were against gay marriage and I bet you support the monarchy.
I don't want sponsors names on jerseys. :x

At least not Test jerseys.

Mine was the Monarchy, where I’m not really supportive but can’t think of anything better.
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