Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

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Peteray
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Peteray »

jdogscoop wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:01 pm I wouldn't mind seeing Frizell rubbed out from the ABs permanently.

Sounds like a grub of the highest order.

Questionable commitment to the jersey in his tests to date too.

Hell no, get rid of him.
I don't think your perspective on this should be at all colored by whether he is a star All Black, or an average one, it should be based on the interpretation by the courts. If their playing ability is taken into account some sportsmen can do no wrong... just ask Wayne Rooney.

BTW, I did note today that a driver who crossed the white line and crashed into another car killing one, and causing significant ongoing trauma issues for others was given 200 hours of 'community work.' So, I'm not sure we should get too precious.

That said, I am intensely disappointed that the Highlanders cannot get their house in order in regards to alcohol associated events.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Peteray »

BTW, I see de Groot has rejoined the AB's as Moody has a calf problem.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by jdogscoop »

Peteray wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:11 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:01 pm I wouldn't mind seeing Frizell rubbed out from the ABs permanently.

Sounds like a grub of the highest order.

Questionable commitment to the jersey in his tests to date too.

Hell no, get rid of him.
I don't think your perspective on this should be at all colored by whether he is a star All Black, or an average one, it should be based on the interpretation by the courts. If their playing ability is taken into account some sportsmen can do no wrong... just ask Wayne Rooney.

BTW, I did note today that a driver who crossed the white line and crashed into another car killing one, and causing significant ongoing trauma issues for others was given 200 hours of 'community work.' So, I'm not sure we should get too precious.

That said, I am intensely disappointed that the Highlanders cannot get their house in order in regards to alcohol associated events.
Are you referring to Eric Rush "Hour"?

I don't think any part of my post suggested that he be discarded because he was only so so as an All Black, merely that was an associated fact.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Peteray »

jdogscoop wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:22 pm
Peteray wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:11 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:01 pm I wouldn't mind seeing Frizell rubbed out from the ABs permanently.

Sounds like a grub of the highest order.

Questionable commitment to the jersey in his tests to date too.

Hell no, get rid of him.
I don't think your perspective on this should be at all colored by whether he is a star All Black, or an average one, it should be based on the interpretation by the courts. If their playing ability is taken into account some sportsmen can do no wrong... just ask Wayne Rooney.

BTW, I did note today that a driver who crossed the white line and crashed into another car killing one, and causing significant ongoing trauma issues for others was given 200 hours of 'community work.' So, I'm not sure we should get too precious.

That said, I am intensely disappointed that the Highlanders cannot get their house in order in regards to alcohol associated events.
Are you referring to Eric Rush "Hour"?

I don't think any part of my post suggested that he be discarded because he was only so so as an All Black, merely that was an associated fact.
Aaaaaah. It did seem unlike you :)
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ted. »

Peteray wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:11 pm
jdogscoop wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:01 pm I wouldn't mind seeing Frizell rubbed out from the ABs permanently.

Sounds like a grub of the highest order.

Questionable commitment to the jersey in his tests to date too.

Hell no, get rid of him.
I don't think your perspective on this should be at all colored by whether he is a star All Black, or an average one, it should be based on the interpretation by the courts. If their playing ability is taken into account some sportsmen can do no wrong... just ask Wayne Rooney.

BTW, I did note today that a driver who crossed the white line and crashed into another car killing one, and causing significant ongoing trauma issues for others was given 200 hours of 'community work.' So, I'm not sure we should get too precious.

That said, I am intensely disappointed that the Highlanders cannot get their house in order in regards to alcohol associated events.
I also interpreted Dog Scoops comment that way. Happy to be wrong, too.

If Frizell gets diversion, as mentioned, then the opportunity for the facts and various sides of the story, if they do differ, to be assessed by a court is lost. On the other hand, at least the dangerous driving causing death and injury charge was examined in a court before the person was sentenced, with the crown having the opportunity to appeal if they believe the sentence is manifestly inadequate.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Davedj77 »

Personally I dont even think Frizell should be in the team based on form. He's never set the world on fire whenever he has played for the ABs. But add this in and there is no way he should be anywhere near the team this year at the least. I believe in giving people second chances but you have to do the time first and a two game ban is not doing the time in any way, shape or form. It's a joke and makes the ABs look like a joke.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ellafan »

obelixtim wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:35 am

I agree. Its not like he's vital to the team either. He hasn't proved himself that good at test level. There are other players available. And it would send a message to any other dickheads.
Could you clarify, are you saying that if he was "vital to the team", and there are not other equally skilled players available, he should be granted a pass on this? He should be given a pass on what is obviously a criminal assault, that any ordinary fellow would be facing some gaol time for?

Are you fucking seriously saying that?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by obelixtim »

Ellafan wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:24 pm
obelixtim wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:35 am

I agree. Its not like he's vital to the team either. He hasn't proved himself that good at test level. There are other players available. And it would send a message to any other dickheads.
Could you clarify, are you saying that if he was "vital to the team", and there are not other equally skilled players available, he should be granted a pass on this? He should be given a pass on what is obviously a criminal assault, that any ordinary fellow would be facing some gaol time for?

Are you fucking seriously saying that?
I'm saying he wouldn't be missed. If any other player did something like that I would expect them to face the same sanctions. Some of them would be missed. They would be replaced, but perhaps by someone not so good.

Kapiche?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by JB1981 »

I see Marc Hinton is still beating the “great first-five debate” drum today. I can only assume he is close family friends of the Barretts the way he keeps this up.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by trapper »

JB1981 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:09 pm I see Marc Hinton is still beating the “great first-five debate” drum today. I can only assume he is close family friends of the Barretts the way he keeps this up.
He seems to think there is no wrong answer for Foster on this, it’s a coin toss between the two. It makes you wonder whether he watched any of the last 3 Tests.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by les@mooloolaba »

trapper wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:00 am
Kiwias wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:38 am
Demilich wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:24 pm As an All Blacks fan, I'm of the opinion that offending of that level (not just hitting woman, but other cowardly/bullying assaults) should result in being removed from All Black contention for a considerable period of time, if not for good. They can still have their NZRU contract, still "earn their living and support their family" through rugby, but not be eligible for the All Blacks. To have any chance of selection in the future, they would need to become genuine spokesmen/campaigners for anti-domestic violence, alcoholic violence and/or bullying over a considerable period of time. Publicly own their offense and genuinely seek to redeem themselves - not the current "oh, what a redemption story, he did a bad thing, served a minimal sentence and incredibly is still good at the sport he was already good at" that seems to exist.

The "they've already been judged/punished by the courts" excuse is absolute bullshit - they don't get punished by the courts BECAUSE they are sportsmen and a conviction would remove a lot of their opportunities to travel for their sport. Our court system is heavily in favour of any half decent sportsman. A team-mate of mine was beaten so badly by a drunk kickboxer that he was left permanently deaf. He lost everything - his job, his partner, his mental health - and the guy that bashed him (it was a bashing, not a fight) got diversion with a $200 fine, because he "needed to travel for kickboxing" (this wasn't a career, he wasn't making his living doing it).

Playing for the All Blacks is a privilege, not a right. We have a massive domestic and alcohol induced violence culture in NZ and having role-models that spoke out against it, rather than practiced it, would be a good thing. And yes, I get the "why is it a sports teams role to provide this" argument - but in NZ we like to think of the All Blacks as something special - enabling this sort of shit makes them "just a sports team".
Good post, mate.
It’s spot on. Someone at HQ needs to read it.

Get rid of the punk.
I wonder if a few fans wrote to the AB sponsors with a note about not buying their products because everytime they see their product, they associate it with domestic violence? I'm sure the sponsors would not be happy.

He should never play for the AB's again and their are no mitigating factors, there is no excuse for a male to hit a female. :yawn:
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Farva »

Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Noob »

Farva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:02 am Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by UncleFB »

Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am
Farva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:02 am Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Noob »

UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am
Farva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:02 am Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
Apologies, if he's not going to be trialled then that part is moot. It also means that the victim/ legal side have agreed to this course of action and thats the end of it. If every one who had a drunken fight was pilloried in the news it would never end.

The part about role models is regarding our tendency to want to punish people who are celebrities/sportsmen when they do something wrong because they are viewed as role models and setting a bad example. I think this is wrong and is a double standard which can be improved if we remove this tendency to measure sportsmen to a higher moral standard off the field.

I think sportsmen are selected as the best at their sport as opposed to the most morally upright people playing their sport. It's an unpopular opinion I know but I think that sportsmen should be punished legally and then be allowed to return to their sport as I am interested in seeing the best play the best. Probably a bit selfish but whatever. I say give everyone the same treatment. If I have a cheeky affair in the toilets I wouldn't expect it to be in the newspapers, I would hope sportsmen are afforded the same privacy.. but that is a pipedream in this day and age
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by UncleFB »

Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am
Farva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:02 am Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
Apologies, if he's not going to be trialled then that part is moot. It also means that the victim/ legal side have agreed to this course of action and thats the end of it. If every one who had a drunken fight was pilloried in the news it would never end.

The part about role models is regarding our tendency to want to punish people who are celebrities/sportsmen when they do something wrong because they are viewed as role models and setting a bad example. I think this is wrong and is a double standard which can be improved if we remove this tendency to measure sportsmen to a higher moral standard off the field.

I think sportsmen are selected as the best at their sport as opposed to the most morally upright people playing their sport. It's an unpopular opinion I know but I think that sportsmen should be punished legally and then be allowed to return to their sport as I am interested in seeing the best play the best. Probably a bit selfish but whatever. I say give everyone the same treatment. If I have a cheeky affair in the toilets I wouldn't expect it to be in the newspapers, I would hope sportsmen are afforded the same privacy.. but that is a pipedream in this day and age
I don't think that is true at all. As far as I know it's the Police Prosecution Service that make the decision regardless of the victim - because in most cases there often isn't a victim as such (most cases of diversion I know of, mainly my mates, is pissing in public, or stealing signposts etc).

Also characterising assaulting and then threatening a woman as a drunken fight is pretty out there, as is pretending that it shouldn't be news. He's a public figure, by the choice of his job, so him assaulting a woman is always going to be news.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by guy smiley »

There's a whole gamut of issues to pick through over the Frizell charges but the bottom line is, we don't know the circumstances surrounding them.

Sure, assaulting a female is a dirty charge. I don't mean to diminish that...

but we don't know what happened. We don't know what led to the decision to offer diversion or to plead guilty.

Personally, I'd like to see anyone found guilty of any crimes disqualified from representing their country in professional sport... but I'm also wary or judging others without the facts.

Emotions distort things.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am
Farva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:02 am Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
Apologies, if he's not going to be trialled then that part is moot. It also means that the victim/ legal side have agreed to this course of action and thats the end of it. If every one who had a drunken fight was pilloried in the news it would never end.

The part about role models is regarding our tendency to want to punish people who are celebrities/sportsmen when they do something wrong because they are viewed as role models and setting a bad example. I think this is wrong and is a double standard which can be improved if we remove this tendency to measure sportsmen to a higher moral standard off the field.

I think sportsmen are selected as the best at their sport as opposed to the most morally upright people playing their sport. It's an unpopular opinion I know but I think that sportsmen should be punished legally and then be allowed to return to their sport as I am interested in seeing the best play the best. Probably a bit selfish but whatever. I say give everyone the same treatment. If I have a cheeky affair in the toilets I wouldn't expect it to be in the newspapers, I would hope sportsmen are afforded the same privacy.. but that is a pipedream in this day and age
Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.

No one is asking him to be a role model but being a decent human being is a reasonable expectation for somebody representing the country in the national sport.

A 195cm 110kg power athlete who smashes a woman's face should never play for the ABs again.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Monkey Magic »

The other issue with the idea of, they are sports people not role models is that these guys make good money because of the public profile of the sport. He could go back and play club rugby and no one would care, but he is playing for a team which relies on a huge public following to generate cash, so anything someone does that compromises that is going to face more scrutiny.

You want to play rugby and not be a role model? Stick to pub teams who pay you in meat pies
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ogre »

Im looking forward to a titanic clash of global heavyweights with this match.

I want a good clean match with no ref (read; blind assholes trying to ruin the game) contriversies or bad calls. A clear winner on the day. May the best team (the All Blacks naturally) win.

there is just something about a Bledisbro that makes it better!
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Noob »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am
Farva wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:02 am Change that statement. There is no excuse, except self defence, for anyone to hit anyone.
What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
Apologies, if he's not going to be trialled then that part is moot. It also means that the victim/ legal side have agreed to this course of action and thats the end of it. If every one who had a drunken fight was pilloried in the news it would never end.

The part about role models is regarding our tendency to want to punish people who are celebrities/sportsmen when they do something wrong because they are viewed as role models and setting a bad example. I think this is wrong and is a double standard which can be improved if we remove this tendency to measure sportsmen to a higher moral standard off the field.

I think sportsmen are selected as the best at their sport as opposed to the most morally upright people playing their sport. It's an unpopular opinion I know but I think that sportsmen should be punished legally and then be allowed to return to their sport as I am interested in seeing the best play the best. Probably a bit selfish but whatever. I say give everyone the same treatment. If I have a cheeky affair in the toilets I wouldn't expect it to be in the newspapers, I would hope sportsmen are afforded the same privacy.. but that is a pipedream in this day and age
Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.

No one is asking him to be a role model but being a decent human being is a reasonable expectation for somebody representing the country in the national sport.

A 195cm 110kg power athlete who smashes a woman's face should never play for the ABs again.
Would you treat it differently if he had punched a man?

As I understand it he was in a bar and likely under the influence of alcohol. No one is saying he should be allowed to get off scot free for punching anyone at all but it also doesnt make sense to forever ban him from professional sport at the highest level . I think he should definitely pay reparations, maybe go for some kind of rehabilitation program, but a lifelong ban is a bit overboard in my opinion.

I brought up Aaron Smith mostly as an example of how the media is a bit over the top with these kinds of articles which arent really news and which I feel are not necessary aspects of media coverage regarding sports men.


UncleFB, if I am mistaken regarding diversion being acceptable to the victim then I am sorry, however I assume this can be appealed even if the police choose to make it a diversion? I will admit I am no lawyer. If you take issue with my calling it a drunken fight can I rephrase to a "drunken altercation?"

Monkey Magic,
I think that is one of the issues I'm driving at. I just don't think it should matter so much what they do outside the context of the game. I think I would prefer if everyone focused more on what happens on the pitch. When we see people eye gouge each other on the field or throw punches at each other those are also acts of violent assault which should see people banned for life if the same standards are placed on them as when they are (possibly) drunk in a bar. Why the double standard?

I think that by focussing on the sport and minimizing the role model aspect to purely on-field ability it would be an improvement. I may be wrong of course.


I think that guy smiley makes a good point re not knowing the full circumstances of the event. If the events come out that he was attacking her and her friends unprovoked then sure, throw the book at him.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. If you all disagree that's fine. I may be wrong about this but I guess what matters is what the ABs management and the NZ authorities feel is right.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by guy smiley »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.
What's your source for that?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Noob »

Ogre wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:06 am Im looking forward to a titanic clash of global heavyweights with this match.

I want a good clean match with no ref (read; blind assholes trying to ruin the game) contriversies or bad calls. A clear winner on the day. May the best team (the All Blacks naturally) win.

there is just something about a Bledisbro that makes it better!
I stayed up to watch the Lions and SA last night.

A few nice backline moves, a few line breaks and some decent hands would make me very very happy.

Looking forward to it!
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ali's Choice »

Okay, less than a week until this match. Time to start focusing on it.

I see Marc Hinton continues hios advocacy of Beauden Barrett by writing how the Barrett vs Mo'unga debate is still very much a 50/50 argument. If this debate wasn't settled after the 2nd Fiji test then it will never be settled, and we may as well just alternative the two through the 10 jersey forever.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... ian-foster
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Grandpa »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:18 am Okay, less than a week until this match. Time to start focusing on it.

I see Marc Hinton continues hios advocacy of Beauden Barrett by writing how the Barrett vs Mo'unga debate is still very much a 50/50 argument. If this debate wasn't settled after the 2nd Fiji test then it will never be settled, and we may as well just alternative the two through the 10 jersey forever.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... ian-foster
Hopefully he picks Mo'unga and he plays well. Though you suspect he'll stay number one as long as NZ keep winning. If they lose a game, he's an easy scapegoat if changes are needed.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ted. »

Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:13 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am

What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
Apologies, if he's not going to be trialled then that part is moot. It also means that the victim/ legal side have agreed to this course of action and thats the end of it. If every one who had a drunken fight was pilloried in the news it would never end.

The part about role models is regarding our tendency to want to punish people who are celebrities/sportsmen when they do something wrong because they are viewed as role models and setting a bad example. I think this is wrong and is a double standard which can be improved if we remove this tendency to measure sportsmen to a higher moral standard off the field.

I think sportsmen are selected as the best at their sport as opposed to the most morally upright people playing their sport. It's an unpopular opinion I know but I think that sportsmen should be punished legally and then be allowed to return to their sport as I am interested in seeing the best play the best. Probably a bit selfish but whatever. I say give everyone the same treatment. If I have a cheeky affair in the toilets I wouldn't expect it to be in the newspapers, I would hope sportsmen are afforded the same privacy.. but that is a pipedream in this day and age
Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.

No one is asking him to be a role model but being a decent human being is a reasonable expectation for somebody representing the country in the national sport.

A 195cm 110kg power athlete who smashes a woman's face should never play for the ABs again.
Would you treat it differently if he had punched a man?

As I understand it he was in a bar and likely under the influence of alcohol. No one is saying he should be allowed to get off scot free for punching anyone at all but it also doesnt make sense to forever ban him from professional sport at the highest level . I think he should definitely pay reparations, maybe go for some kind of rehabilitation program, but a lifelong ban is a bit overboard in my opinion.

I brought up Aaron Smith mostly as an example of how the media is a bit over the top with these kinds of articles which arent really news and which I feel are not necessary aspects of media coverage regarding sports men.


UncleFB, if I am mistaken regarding diversion being acceptable to the victim then I am sorry, however I assume this can be appealed even if the police choose to make it a diversion? I will admit I am no lawyer. If you take issue with my calling it a drunken fight can I rephrase to a "drunken altercation?"

Monkey Magic,
I think that is one of the issues I'm driving at. I just don't think it should matter so much what they do outside the context of the game. I think I would prefer if everyone focused more on what happens on the pitch. When we see people eye gouge each other on the field or throw punches at each other those are also acts of violent assault which should see people banned for life if the same standards are placed on them as when they are (possibly) drunk in a bar. Why the double standard?

I think that by focussing on the sport and minimizing the role model aspect to purely on-field ability it would be an improvement. I may be wrong of course.


I think that guy smiley makes a good point re not knowing the full circumstances of the event. If the events come out that he was attacking her and her friends unprovoked then sure, throw the book at him.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread. If you all disagree that's fine. I may be wrong about this but I guess what matters is what the ABs management and the NZ authorities feel is right.
On your First point, there's a very Good reason there is a defined charge for assaulting a female. I shouldn't have to spell it out.

As for Pakia Pakia's assertion that he 'smashed' her tooth out, is that a fact or something lifted from social media?

As I said earlier, this won't, get the chance to be examined in court. In many respects that's a shame.

Another thought, is victim impact, or culpability, taken into account when a prosecutor offers diversion? I have no idea how it works.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:13 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:22 am
Noob wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:17 am

What about defending others/ property?

Anyway, I say let him be judged by the courts and abide by their decision rather than crucify him in the court of public opinion. More importantly we need to stop putting sportsmen on pedestals and use them as role models, we need to teach our kids better and provide good role models ourselves instead of relying on some dude who plays sports for a living to show a good example. My 2 cents.
Have you been following the thread? He isn't being judged by the courts but has admitted guilt under a diversion scheme.

Also, no ones trying to make out he's a big role model.
Apologies, if he's not going to be trialled then that part is moot. It also means that the victim/ legal side have agreed to this course of action and thats the end of it. If every one who had a drunken fight was pilloried in the news it would never end.

The part about role models is regarding our tendency to want to punish people who are celebrities/sportsmen when they do something wrong because they are viewed as role models and setting a bad example. I think this is wrong and is a double standard which can be improved if we remove this tendency to measure sportsmen to a higher moral standard off the field.

I think sportsmen are selected as the best at their sport as opposed to the most morally upright people playing their sport. It's an unpopular opinion I know but I think that sportsmen should be punished legally and then be allowed to return to their sport as I am interested in seeing the best play the best. Probably a bit selfish but whatever. I say give everyone the same treatment. If I have a cheeky affair in the toilets I wouldn't expect it to be in the newspapers, I would hope sportsmen are afforded the same privacy.. but that is a pipedream in this day and age
Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.

No one is asking him to be a role model but being a decent human being is a reasonable expectation for somebody representing the country in the national sport.

A 195cm 110kg power athlete who smashes a woman's face should never play for the ABs again.
Would you treat it differently if he had punched a man?

As I understand it he was in a bar and likely under the influence of alcohol. No one is saying he should be allowed to get off scot free for punching anyone at all but it also doesnt make sense to forever ban him from professional sport at the highest level . I think he should definitely pay reparations, maybe go for some kind of rehabilitation program, but a lifelong ban is a bit overboard in my opinion.
Selby-Rickett smashed up some guys jaw and I don't think he should be an All Black either.

I'm not against these guys playing at a provincial level should a franchise wish to contract him but the All Blacks are the goose that lays the golden eggs for New Zealand rugby. There used to be a no dickheads policy for the All Blacks and I think Frizzell has clearly surpassed that threshold.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by guy smiley »

guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:15 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.
What's your source for that?
Hello?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by jdogscoop »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:18 am Okay, less than a week until this match. Time to start focusing on it.

I see Marc Hinton continues hios advocacy of Beauden Barrett by writing how the Barrett vs Mo'unga debate is still very much a 50/50 argument. If this debate wasn't settled after the 2nd Fiji test then it will never be settled, and we may as well just alternative the two through the 10 jersey forever.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... ian-foster
I used to rate Marc Hinton but sadly have come to the conclusion that he only takes notice of tries, clean breaks, big hits and conversions.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Pakia Pakia »

guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:16 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:15 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.
What's your source for that?
Hello?
I read it in Stuff and the Herald. The woman needs some dental work too apparently.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ali's Choice »

Grandpa wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:41 am Hopefully he picks Mo'unga and he plays well. Though you suspect he'll stay number one as long as NZ keep winning. If they lose a game, he's an easy scapegoat if changes are needed.
This is another problem with Foster's rotational selection policy. Not only do players struggle to gain confidence because they never feel secure in the team, but they are also dropped as soon as they or the team play poorly. This creates an environment that is not conducive to high performance. Dan Carter played lots of average matches for the AB's but he was able to navigate the natural ebbs and flows of form because his position in the team was secure. When Foster drops someone who plays poorly, or just because the team plays poorly, he is undermining their own and the team's performance.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Grandpa »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:47 am
Grandpa wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:41 am Hopefully he picks Mo'unga and he plays well. Though you suspect he'll stay number one as long as NZ keep winning. If they lose a game, he's an easy scapegoat if changes are needed.
This is another problem with Foster's rotational selection policy. Not only do players struggle to gain confidence because they never feel secure in the team, but they are also dropped as soon as they or the team play poorly. This creates an environment that is not conducive to high performance. Dan Carter played lots of average matches for the AB's but he was able to navigate the natural ebbs and flows of form because his position in the team was secure. When Foster drops someone who plays poorly, or just because the team plays poorly, he is undermining their own and the team's performance.
I agree... and this started under Hansen. I don't know if he got cocky or just lost the plot, but since 2017 every match became an experiment... an experiment that failed.. and yet, Foster appears to want to continue this failed experiment. Can't he think for himself instead of trying to mimic Hansen?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:47 am
Grandpa wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:41 am Hopefully he picks Mo'unga and he plays well. Though you suspect he'll stay number one as long as NZ keep winning. If they lose a game, he's an easy scapegoat if changes are needed.
This is another problem with Foster's rotational selection policy. Not only do players struggle to gain confidence because they never feel secure in the team, but they are also dropped as soon as they or the team play poorly. This creates an environment that is not conducive to high performance. Dan Carter played lots of average matches for the AB's but he was able to navigate the natural ebbs and flows of form because his position in the team was secure. When Foster drops someone who plays poorly, or just because the team plays poorly, he is undermining their own and the team's performance.
Dan Carter was amazeballs for years before he started having some average games.

Are players really 'dropped' by Foster or is he just endlessly rotating?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ali's Choice »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:53 am Are players really 'dropped' by Foster or is he just endlessly rotating?
Same outcome whatever the reasoning behind it. No cohesion or combinations are ever developed and no-one except an elite few ever feels confident.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ted. »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:28 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:16 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:15 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.
What's your source for that?
Hello?
I read it in Stuff and the Herald. The woman needs some dental work too apparently.
Wasn't the article just quoting claims posted on social media?
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ted. wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:29 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:28 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:16 am
guy smiley wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:15 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:50 am Frizzel smashed a woman's tooth out when he punched her in the face. It's hardly comparable or relevant to Aaron Smith's toilet sex episode.
What's your source for that?
Hello?
I read it in Stuff and the Herald. The woman needs some dental work too apparently.
Wasn't the article just quoting claims posted on social media?
Not that I'm aware of. I read that he additionally made threatening remarks in social media. He's been ordered by the courts not to consume alcohol or contact the victim. He was charged with male on female assault to which he offered no defense. He read a public statement saying he was sorry and is seeking councilling to deal with his behaviour and anger issues.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by kiwigreg369 »

:thumbdown:
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:56 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:53 am Are players really 'dropped' by Foster or is he just endlessly rotating?
Same outcome whatever the reasoning behind it. No cohesion or combinations are ever developed and no-one except an elite few ever feels confident.
At the risk of pooing in the pool RMo has stawrted 6 out of 9 games Foster has been in charge - and 6 of the last 8.

Is he one of the elite few? Has anyone played more - don’t think Aaron - maybe only Sam W is elite.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by guy smiley »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:26 pm
Ted. wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:29 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:28 am
I read it in Stuff and the Herald. The woman needs some dental work too apparently.
Wasn't the article just quoting claims posted on social media?
Not that I'm aware of. I read that he additionally made threatening remarks in social media.
There are comments in the media from the girl's mother regarding what was said and what happened.

The mother who wasn't there.

The girl's injuries are also reported from the mother's relating of the incident.

There is a screenshot up the thread of an instagram message from Frizzell to the girl's friend on the night.


All of this is troublesome as it is anecdotal and not tested in court... yet it is being presented here as fact.

I'm not inclined to defend Frizell here, I reckon there's enough in the story to place him in a very bad position...

but I'm not interested in lynch mob thinking either.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Dan54. »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:56 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:53 am Are players really 'dropped' by Foster or is he just endlessly rotating?
Same outcome whatever the reasoning behind it. No cohesion or combinations are ever developed and no-one except an elite few ever feels confident.
Most players I thought get rotated to stop them getting burnt out. I think we see have seen where it shows if players are overused at times. I agree about getting combinations, but I seriously doubt whether players lose confidence being rotated out so they kept fresh etc, unless of course unless it never explained to them why it happening. I also a fan of a plan B in case of injuries etc.
I really never seen any sign that A Smith has lacked confidence from being rotated, or RMo(who doesn't get rested a lot as KG pointed out) but seems quite comfortable when he comes back.
Seems to me that players continually say they enjoy the fact that they have to perform to hold spots and makes them better players.
I remember Tana Umaga talking about it at a lunch in Brisbane when he was AB captain, when asked about rests and rotation etc, said he though it was pretty essential to have enough players available having the experience etc at test level to step in when required whether through injury or other reasons.
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Re: Bledisloe Cup I: All Blacks vs Wallabies: MATCH THREAD: Sat 7th Aug

Post by Ali's Choice »

Dan54. wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:31 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:56 am
Pakia Pakia wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:53 am Are players really 'dropped' by Foster or is he just endlessly rotating?
Same outcome whatever the reasoning behind it. No cohesion or combinations are ever developed and no-one except an elite few ever feels confident.
Most players I thought get rotated to stop them getting burnt out. I think we see have seen where it shows if players are overused at times. I agree about getting combinations, but I seriously doubt whether players lose confidence being rotated out so they kept fresh etc, unless of course unless it never explained to them why it happening. I also a fan of a plan B in case of injuries etc.
I really never seen any sign that A Smith has lacked confidence from being rotated, or RMo(who doesn't get rested a lot as KG pointed out) but seems quite comfortable when he comes back.
Seems to me that players continually say they enjoy the fact that they have to perform to hold spots and makes them better players.
I remember Tana Umaga talking about it at a lunch in Brisbane when he was AB captain, when asked about rests and rotation etc, said he though it was pretty essential to have enough players available having the experience etc at test level to step in when required whether through injury or other reasons.
Are you seriously suggesting that players enjoy never knowing if their position is safe in the team? That makes no sense to me, in any industry. Individuals perform best when they feel secure, whatever the job is.
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