Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

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obelixtim
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by obelixtim »

The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:14 am
obelixtim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:05 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:58 am
obelixtim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:23 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:32 am It’s a perfect game to test the mettle of the second rank and newer members of the squad. It’s not a USA or Italy where any All Black team would ride roughshod over the opponent. Argentina are the seventh ranked team in the World.
And the USA or Italy is when these guys should be played. Not while the RC is still in the balance. If they lose this game, it opens the door for the Boks.
Yeah, great idea. Run the front-liners into the ground before playing the Boks in back to back games of significance 🙄
This is a game of significance. Win this and they only have to win 1 of the Bok games to clinch the title. Lose it, and then the pressure will be on to win both Bok games.

And the front liners have hardly been run into the ground 2 games in the last 3 weeks, with most of them not even playing a full 80 minutes.

As others have said, they could have mixed and matched with 5 or 6 newbies in this game, and filter the others in during the tour, especially in the second leg after the RC. This is a banana skin and they could easily screw this game up. At the very least, most of them will be rusty, and the ABs generally don't play well when they've had a layoff, as most of this team have.
So you’d like to see most of the top team playing all games before they play the Boks on consecutive weekends? Risking fatigue and injury whilst already missing Smith, Mo’unga and Whitelock? Thank f*ck you’re not an All Black Coach or Selector.
Don't be such a drama queen. They can manage things better, as they already have. They changed a few players around for Pumas 1. How many front liners have actually played a full game over the last 3 - 4 weeks? Bugger all.

If these players can't handle a reasonable workload, wtf are they doing there?

And before playing the Boks, they need to be match fit. You only get that by actually playing.
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The Native
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by The Native »

obelixtim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:22 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:14 am
obelixtim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:05 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:58 am
obelixtim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:23 am

And the USA or Italy is when these guys should be played. Not while the RC is still in the balance. If they lose this game, it opens the door for the Boks.
Yeah, great idea. Run the front-liners into the ground before playing the Boks in back to back games of significance 🙄
This is a game of significance. Win this and they only have to win 1 of the Bok games to clinch the title. Lose it, and then the pressure will be on to win both Bok games.

And the front liners have hardly been run into the ground 2 games in the last 3 weeks, with most of them not even playing a full 80 minutes.

As others have said, they could have mixed and matched with 5 or 6 newbies in this game, and filter the others in during the tour, especially in the second leg after the RC. This is a banana skin and they could easily screw this game up. At the very least, most of them will be rusty, and the ABs generally don't play well when they've had a layoff, as most of this team have.
So you’d like to see most of the top team playing all games before they play the Boks on consecutive weekends? Risking fatigue and injury whilst already missing Smith, Mo’unga and Whitelock? Thank f*ck you’re not an All Black Coach or Selector.
Don't be such a drama queen. They can manage things better, as they already have. They changed a few players around for Pumas 1. How many front liners have actually played a full game over the last 3 - 4 weeks? Bugger all.

If these players can't handle a reasonable workload, wtf are they doing there?

And before playing the Boks, they need to be match fit. You only get that by actually playing.
Plainly you don’t know what is and what isn’t a reasonable workload for a professional rugby athlete.

And you don’t lose match fitness by taking one game off. You can’t maintain or improve fitness if you’re already nursing niggles that are compounded week to week from lack of proper recovery, it’s basic exercise science.
obelixtim
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by obelixtim »

Plainly you don’t know what is and what isn’t a reasonable workload for a professional rugby athlete.
60 minutes on the pitch per week for most of them would seem pretty a reasonable workload for a professional athlete, who has nothing else to do apart from training.

Best medical attention, best nutrition, best accommodation....

Not exactly a 10 or 12 hour day of actual work, that many people have to do for peanuts pay in comparison.

I ask again. How many of the team have actually spent a full 80 minutes on the pitch over the past 3 - 4 weeks. Any idea?
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The Native
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by The Native »

obelixtim wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:28 am
Plainly you don’t know what is and what isn’t a reasonable workload for a professional rugby athlete.
60 minutes on the pitch per week for most of them would seem pretty a reasonable workload for a professional athlete, who has nothing else to do apart from training.

Best medical attention, best nutrition, best accommodation....

Not exactly a 10 or 12 hour day of actual work, that many people have to do for peanuts pay in comparison.

I ask again. How many of the team have actually spent a full 80 minutes on the pitch over the past 3 - 4 weeks. Any idea?
That’s a ridiculously naive point of view.

Do some scientific reading of the amount of damage these guys sustain then tell me that they can play at their best week after week even with all the best medical care, nutrition and accommodation. Not to mention external and mental stresses.

Start here - https://www.thesportsman.com/features/l ... -than-ever
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elcamino
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by elcamino »

The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
I get that there’s more to playing 7 than turnovers but Dalton missed three tackles in that first Aussie test and was anonymous for loooong stretches. I think we can do a lot better. Right now I’m liking Akira, Jacobson and Ardie as our back row.
And yeah I don’t rate Cane. Jerry Collins/Jerome Kaino knocked people over… and they played 6 where that style suits
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The Native
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by The Native »

elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:33 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
I get that there’s more to playing 7 than turnovers but Dalton missed three tackles in that first Aussie test and was anonymous for loooong stretches. I think we can do a lot better. Right now I’m liking Akira, Jacobson and Ardie as our back row.
And yeah I don’t rate Cane. Jerry Collins/Jerome Kaino knocked people over… and they played 6 where that style suits
Just admit you don’t watch Rugby.
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Ted.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

Grandpa wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:01 pm
Enzedder wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:34 pm
Grandpa wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:30 am Much as I would prefer Razor to be coach... so far this year, Fozzie's teams have done ok. He and the selectors will know more than us which players have niggles or are over-played etc... and now is a good time to take a few risks before the Bok-fest. I bet I am not alone in thinking that just maybe, maybe this team won't lose and will equip itself reasonably well after a chaotic first half an hour...

Lets wait until this team gets crushed before having a go at him... and if he goes through the year undefeated... we can thank the players... :D
I think he is keeping an eye on the whole 3 months, not just one game at a time. There is no way we can play our strongest available team each week for all 12 games.
I think a lot of people are asking why not change 3 or 4 each match rather than almost the entire team for one match... but conversely if you want a settled team you have to pick pretty much the same players to establish combinations... which he has done in recent games... and there is nothing wrong with building depth if you can get away with it.

SA picked a second-string side to play Argentina in the first game of the RC... so we are not alone...
That's it in a nutshell. It smacks of poor planning, but I gue4ss we will see in the coming weeks and monthts.
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Ted.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
Last edited by Ted. on Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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UncleFB
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by UncleFB »

The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:37 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:33 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
I get that there’s more to playing 7 than turnovers but Dalton missed three tackles in that first Aussie test and was anonymous for loooong stretches. I think we can do a lot better. Right now I’m liking Akira, Jacobson and Ardie as our back row.
And yeah I don’t rate Cane. Jerry Collins/Jerome Kaino knocked people over… and they played 6 where that style suits
Just admit you don’t watch Rugby.
:lol:
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trapper
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by trapper »

One thing’s for sure, that team is not short on individual talent.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Fat Old Git »

The changes certainly set us up for a more interesting game than we might otherwise have expected.
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Ted.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

trapper wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:14 am One thing’s for sure, that team is not short on individual talent.
No it's not. :nod: Though the smarts quotient compared to the "1st team" is a little more uncertain. ;)
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Pakia Pakia
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Pakia Pakia »

elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:33 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
I get that there’s more to playing 7 than turnovers but Dalton missed three tackles in that first Aussie test and was anonymous for loooong stretches. I think we can do a lot better. Right now I’m liking Akira, Jacobson and Ardie as our back row.
And yeah I don’t rate Cane. Jerry Collins/Jerome Kaino knocked people over… and they played 6 where that style suits
Those are the only 3 tackles Dalton has missed all season according to rugby pass. He's made the most tackles for the All Blacks this year with 93% completion rate.
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Pakia Pakia
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Pakia Pakia »

Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by GI_Joint »

PR folks has the ABs by 35, jesus! bet they all put a sneaky few bucks on the Argies with that potential payback.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

GI_Joint wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:31 am PR folks has the ABs by 35, jesus! bet they all put a sneaky 20 on the Argies with that potential payback.
UK bookies have the All Blacks at around 1/50 and Argentina at 15/1... worth a flutter...
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by not_english »

I have put a cheeky fiver on Argentina :D
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Ted.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
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Grandpa
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by guy smiley »

Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...
He needs to get rid of that excuse for a moustache. It makes him look like a towel attendant at a Turkish bathhouse.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Dan54. »

Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:45 am
Grandpa wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:01 pm
Enzedder wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:34 pm
Grandpa wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:30 am Much as I would prefer Razor to be coach... so far this year, Fozzie's teams have done ok. He and the selectors will know more than us which players have niggles or are over-played etc... and now is a good time to take a few risks before the Bok-fest. I bet I am not alone in thinking that just maybe, maybe this team won't lose and will equip itself reasonably well after a chaotic first half an hour...

Lets wait until this team gets crushed before having a go at him... and if he goes through the year undefeated... we can thank the players... :D
I think he is keeping an eye on the whole 3 months, not just one game at a time. There is no way we can play our strongest available team each week for all 12 games.
I think a lot of people are asking why not change 3 or 4 each match rather than almost the entire team for one match... but conversely if you want a settled team you have to pick pretty much the same players to establish combinations... which he has done in recent games... and there is nothing wrong with building depth if you can get away with it.

SA picked a second-string side to play Argentina in the first game of the RC... so we are not alone...
That's it in a nutshell. It smacks of poor planning, but I gue4ss we will see in the coming weeks and monthts.
Is it poor planning or trying to get combos running together though? I buggered if I can work it out, what is better continual rotation or getting a few runs together and then big changes? You get a hell of a lot of posters that say we need to get team running as unit etc. I not probably smart enough to have definitive answer, I kind of like swapping a few at a time, although I can see how this is more like what happens in WC, so can see this idea too. Anyway, now's a good time to see how some of the other boys go without having all the experience to look after them I guess!
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

guy smiley wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:13 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am

Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...
He needs to get rid of that excuse for a moustache. It makes him look like a towel attendant at a Turkish bathhouse.
And they are the scariest people on Earth!
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Dan54. »

Also be a little interested to see how Argies defend tonight,especially with DMac at 10. I thought last week BB was playing fairly flat to the line (he usually does) and tends to aim for gaps in front of him, DMac is actually more like RMo, just slightly deeper and prepared to shuffle across field to look for a gap or to create one. Why I think Havili tends to take ball as first receiver so often with RMo? And not sure DMac will have same comfort with Tupaea at 12, so could make it interesting. You can bet that Cheika will be working on that with defence.
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Ted.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am
The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...

McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane yet, let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

BTW, I must say it's been a joy to see daytime and early evening rugby. So why the hell is the kick off time 8:05 local? It's not going to be a stonking hot day, so that can't be the reason. Have they got a farmers parade on in the afternoon, or something?
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:55 am

Hmm, sounds like an excellent 6. Not that defence should be foreign to an openside, you'd rather see them second at the tackle (also, rag-dolling the 9 and 10 is frowned on these days). All the same, if you see your 7 as primarily a defender or breakdown hitter, something is wrong with the balance of your loosies.
For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...

McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
I was comparing how he appears to be at every ruck. Much as McCaw did. Don't worry I am not comparing him to McCaw the player just yet. Different sort of player too. There's a heaviness to Papalii I like... He's like Dusautoir in that respect... and it's rare to see a Kiwi seven with that ability. And with Akira... we could be on the cusp of something special.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:29 pm BTW, I must say it's been a joy to see daytime and early evening rugby. So why the hell is the kick off time 8:05 local? It's not going to be a stonking hot day, so that can't be the reason. Have they got a farmers parade on in the afternoon, or something?
Isn't SA v Australia on before it. Same ground? SA home game so I guess they want SA to be awake?
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Dan54. »

Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:34 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:29 pm BTW, I must say it's been a joy to see daytime and early evening rugby. So why the hell is the kick off time 8:05 local? It's not going to be a stonking hot day, so that can't be the reason. Have they got a farmers parade on in the afternoon, or something?
Isn't SA v Australia on before it. Same ground? SA home game so I guess they want SA to be awake?
Yep Grandpa, but I actually think the Bok/Wallaby game is a Aus home game, and I think they wanting to avoid finals of NRL and AFL at later time.

Anyway time to sneak off to College rugby!
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

Dan54. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:34 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:29 pm BTW, I must say it's been a joy to see daytime and early evening rugby. So why the hell is the kick off time 8:05 local? It's not going to be a stonking hot day, so that can't be the reason. Have they got a farmers parade on in the afternoon, or something?
Isn't SA v Australia on before it. Same ground? SA home game so I guess they want SA to be awake?
Yep Grandpa, but I actually think the Bok/Wallaby game is a Aus home game, and I think they wanting to avoid finals of NRL and AFL at later time.

Anyway time to sneak off to College rugby!
So not many Australians will be watching the NZ v Argentina game ..
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by mr bungle »

The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Dalton is big and strong and has impressed. I would query Savea's supposed average of 3-4 turnovers a game. He's no Broussow.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by les@mooloolaba »

The Native wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:08 am
elcamino wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:38 am Gonna be interesting to see Ardie back at 7. I thought Dalton was pretty average so far. In terms of turnovers he was getting maybe 1-2 a game. Ardie usually grabs 3-4 and this could unlock a new aspect of counterattack that we haven’t seen this season. Would have preferred Jacobson got another start at 8 tho
What games were you watching? He’s been consistently excellent in defense allowing others to do their jobs. If your logic is anything to go by you probably don’t rate Sam Cane because instead of stealing turnovers, he’s knocking players over.
Yes this obsession with No.7's being the main turnover winner by posters is absurd, all players are able to go for turnovers. It all depends where a certain player is in relation to the tackled player hitting the ground. 7's cant be just waiting for that to happen, if they need to tackle they have to.

We cant compare present 7's to McCaw, because they don't move side to side like he did. He had a big motor and always had gas in the tank. Foz seems to have his backrow playing on the sides for the majority of the time.
Last edited by les@mooloolaba on Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by UncleFB »

Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:31 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am

For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...

McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
I was comparing how he appears to be at every ruck. Much as McCaw did. Don't worry I am not comparing him to McCaw the player just yet. Different sort of player too. There's a heaviness to Papalii I like... He's like Dusautoir in that respect... and it's rare to see a Kiwi seven with that ability. And with Akira... we could be on the cusp of something special.
What do you mean by heaviness? McCaw and Cane were/are both heavier than Dusatior.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Pakia Pakia »

In last week's games during the anthems Rieko Ioane basically looked the same height and weight as Blackadder and Jacobson. He's a big unit.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ali's Choice »

Pakia Pakia wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:18 am In last week's games during the anthems Rieko Ioane basically looked the same height and weight as Blackadder and Jacobson. He's a big unit.
It's been fairly common in the pro-era for us to have big wingers.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:54 am
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:31 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm

Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...

McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
I was comparing how he appears to be at every ruck. Much as McCaw did. Don't worry I am not comparing him to McCaw the player just yet. Different sort of player too. There's a heaviness to Papalii I like... He's like Dusautoir in that respect... and it's rare to see a Kiwi seven with that ability. And with Akira... we could be on the cusp of something special.
What do you mean by heaviness? McCaw and Cane were/are both heavier than Dusatior.
Some players have a heaviness to them. Hard to describe it. It's not about weight. Two players could be the exact same weight, but one may seem much heavier than the other. Papalii has it, Kaino had it, Dusautoir had it, Underhill has it. They seem to be made of lead.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by UncleFB »

Grandpa wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:32 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:54 am
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:31 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm

Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...

McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
I was comparing how he appears to be at every ruck. Much as McCaw did. Don't worry I am not comparing him to McCaw the player just yet. Different sort of player too. There's a heaviness to Papalii I like... He's like Dusautoir in that respect... and it's rare to see a Kiwi seven with that ability. And with Akira... we could be on the cusp of something special.
What do you mean by heaviness? McCaw and Cane were/are both heavier than Dusatior.
Some players have a heaviness to them. Hard to describe it. It's not about weight. Two players could be the exact same weight, but one may seem much heavier than the other. Papalii has it, Kaino had it, Dusautoir had it, Underhill has it. They seem to be made of lead.
FFS, if Underhill and Dusatior have it then so does Cane :lol:
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by the curse »

Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:01 pm
Dan54. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:34 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:29 pm BTW, I must say it's been a joy to see daytime and early evening rugby. So why the hell is the kick off time 8:05 local? It's not going to be a stonking hot day, so that can't be the reason. Have they got a farmers parade on in the afternoon, or something?
Isn't SA v Australia on before it. Same ground? SA home game so I guess they want SA to be awake?
Yep Grandpa, but I actually think the Bok/Wallaby game is a Aus home game, and I think they wanting to avoid finals of NRL and AFL at later time.

Anyway time to sneak off to College rugby!
So not many Australians will be watching the NZ v Argentina game ..
considering they are showing the Aus game on free to air, and the NZ game not (like last week), many like myself will be using this site for a stream rather than signing up for STAN... typical myopic aussie coverage...
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:31 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:59 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 pm
Pakia Pakia wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:57 am

For the All Blacks the 7 has always led the tackle count since McCaw.
Since McCaw morphed from being a fetcher to a coverer and tackler, you mean. So what you are saying is McCaw and Sam Cane, a data set of two. Poleasssse!

Besides, it's not what I said. I said primarily a defender, i.e. such as a 6.
Papalii has made some good carries though. And he seems hard to stop. Much as I love seeing Akira applying himself, Papalii has been a revelation for me. Like McCaw used to, he seems to be at every ruck. I want to see how he goes against SA... if he can continue to get over the advantage line and also stop them dead in their tracks too... then I am fully converted...

McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
I was comparing how he appears to be at every ruck. Much as McCaw did. Don't worry I am not comparing him to McCaw the player just yet. Different sort of player too. There's a heaviness to Papalii I like... He's like Dusautoir in that respect... and it's rare to see a Kiwi seven with that ability. And with Akira... we could be on the cusp of something special.
Well yes, because basically they mostly play a traditional style openside flanker, not a 6.5. Not mention, IIRC, Dusautoir had some big(ger) units working around him. Though I also think Dusautoir had a little more finesse than you are crediting him with.
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Ted. »

Dan54. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:56 pm
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:34 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:29 pm BTW, I must say it's been a joy to see daytime and early evening rugby. So why the hell is the kick off time 8:05 local? It's not going to be a stonking hot day, so that can't be the reason. Have they got a farmers parade on in the afternoon, or something?
Isn't SA v Australia on before it. Same ground? SA home game so I guess they want SA to be awake?
Yep Grandpa, but I actually think the Bok/Wallaby game is a Aus home game, and I think they wanting to avoid finals of NRL and AFL at later time.

Anyway time to sneak off to College rugby!
Ah, cheers. I thought we were playing the curtain raiser, which is a bit odd when you consider it. So, rightfully, the ABs and Pumas are the main game. :nod:
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Re: Rugby Championship: Pumas vs All Blacks: MATCH THREAD: Sat 18th Sept

Post by Grandpa »

UncleFB wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:40 am
Grandpa wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:32 am
UncleFB wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:54 am
Grandpa wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:31 pm
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm


McCaw was the GOAT and the captain, he could do what he freaking liked as long as things were not going to shit. He also played much of his career during that period with an exceptional blindside and an exceptional number 8. Agreed?

Equating Papalii at this stage of his career to the GOAT is insulting. Now don't get me wrong, I like Papalii a lot, he has a lot of upside (far more than Sam Cane for instance) and I think he will play a lot of games for the ABs at either 6 or 7, however he's not close to Sam Cane let alone McCaw, so please desist.

As an aside, if it is generally agree that the strongest game we have had from an ABs loosie this season is Akira Ioane, when he shifted to 8, and the second strongest was Akira Ioane playing at 6 (less clear cut). Should we not be starting with his good form and building our loosies around that?
I was comparing how he appears to be at every ruck. Much as McCaw did. Don't worry I am not comparing him to McCaw the player just yet. Different sort of player too. There's a heaviness to Papalii I like... He's like Dusautoir in that respect... and it's rare to see a Kiwi seven with that ability. And with Akira... we could be on the cusp of something special.
What do you mean by heaviness? McCaw and Cane were/are both heavier than Dusatior.
Some players have a heaviness to them. Hard to describe it. It's not about weight. Two players could be the exact same weight, but one may seem much heavier than the other. Papalii has it, Kaino had it, Dusautoir had it, Underhill has it. They seem to be made of lead.
FFS, if Underhill and Dusatior have it then so does Cane :lol:
Cane is Bamboo isn't it? 😄
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