The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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PornDog
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by PornDog »

CM11 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am Hendo not being involved at all after an excellent six nations was odd tbf.
He's a brilliant player and was in great form, he's just unlucky that its a position of real strength.

Yeah he has a point that Lawes was picked on reputation rather than form, but he lived up to that reputation. AWJ was always going to come back in if there was any chance he was going to be fit and yes that's favouritism because that wouldn't have been the case for anyone else, but it was always going to happen. Beard did will but was certainly a bit lucky to leapfrog Hendie.

He was unlucky, but I don't know if I'd agree it was odd or some sort of travesty.

Gatland's gameplan though - don't get me started x(
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

IRUA down as business owner and rugby coach, are you related to him or something this seems very personal to you?
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hermie
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:30 am IRUA down as business owner and rugby coach, are you related to him or something this seems very personal to you?
:lol: no, I made similar complaints when Karl Martin was signed away.

i'm more than happy to let the topic die until the next prospect is signed from the sub-academy by a competitor and I can hear from you how that player wasn't really that good anyway. :thumbup:
Last edited by irishrugbyua on Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 am
Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
Ulster had Coetzee's salary plus the money the Bulls paid in compensation for getting him with 18 months left on his contract allied with having a small squad with several higher earners (Matthewson, Faddes) and squad players (McBurney, McCall, Johnston) having left without being replaced.

Leinster didn't replace Fardy but did sign Ala'alatoa
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:39 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 am
Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
Ulster had Coetzee's salary plus the money the Bulls paid in compensation for getting him with 18 months left on his contract allied with having a small squad with several higher earners (Matthewson, Faddes) and squad players (McBurney, McCall, Johnston) having left without being replaced.

Leinster didn't replace Fardy but did sign Ala'alatoa
Ala'alatoa was a direct replacement for Bent. He's also our only NIQ. That should mean something when it comes to trying to ward off the vultures from burgeoning local talent.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:39 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 am
Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
Ulster had Coetzee's salary plus the money the Bulls paid in compensation for getting him with 18 months left on his contract allied with having a small squad with several higher earners (Matthewson, Faddes) and squad players (McBurney, McCall, Johnston) having left without being replaced.

Leinster didn't replace Fardy but did sign Ala'alatoa
who was a replacement for Michael Bent.

Leinster could have afford an 8k academy contract if they wanted, but they didn't, was that a mistake? we will have to wait and see.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 am
Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
What the hell do Ulster and Munster have to do with Leinster academy? So we should sign an 18 yr old small centre to replace and international 2nd row/6 :lol: :lol: Still waiting on your magic money tree.
Keenan was very lightweight when young and needed to fill frame a bit more. Ringrose didn't miss a kick during his SCT campaign and scored a try in the final. Sexton was behind Steenson for the Irish under 20's.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:43 am
earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:39 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 am
Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
Ulster had Coetzee's salary plus the money the Bulls paid in compensation for getting him with 18 months left on his contract allied with having a small squad with several higher earners (Matthewson, Faddes) and squad players (McBurney, McCall, Johnston) having left without being replaced.

Leinster didn't replace Fardy but did sign Ala'alatoa
Ala'alatoa was a direct replacement for Bent. He's also our only NIQ. That should mean something when it comes to trying to ward off the vultures from burgeoning local talent.
Ulster only have 2 NIQs.
Munster only have 3 NIQs.
Connacht only have 4 NIQs.

Leinster chose to use their budget elsewhere, it isn't anything to do with the other provinces.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DeDoc »

irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:44 am Leinster could have afford an 8k academy contract if they wanted, but they didn't, was that a mistake? we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, I think this is the key point. If they really wanted to keep these guys they could have, financially speaking

So it's basically a judgement on Leinsters part that they don't need/want them. Harsh, but thats the reality of lots of good players coming out of the schools system and a limited number of places. Some of those decisions may turn out to be bad ones, but that is also the nature of the system - until you get a sustained set of obviously bad decisions, I don't think we have a strong position to criticise the system.

As someone pointed out, when you now have a 5 year qualifiying period in place, those 18 year olds have up to 5 years before they risk become a (permanent) loss to the Irish system. Leinster have a very well regarded player development path, but I doubt Bristol's is so much inferior that a talented player who would have made it in Leinster gets lost to the game completely. If the player develops at BRistol to the point where they'd be in contention for a place in the Leinster side, then they're not going to be a million miles off the standard for an Irish squad. For which they'd need to move home anyway. So the risks associated with 'losing' the player seem to me to be relatively small. Those players presumably would still be available for U20s etc, so plenty of chance to keep an eye on their progress and to start conversations about returning home.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:47 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 am
Luckycharmer wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:17 am
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:51 am LC and DOB on the same side of the argument but totally contradicting each other. One says if Berti Newman was a Luke Fitz-genuine talent he'd have been kept, the other that a schools star means nothing because Macken, Dardis etc (I wouldn't be so quick to lump Hawkshaw in with them either. He's on a pro deal at quite a young age even though Leinster don't need 10s and he's a very small 12. That speaks a lot to not only his raw talent but his application imo).

But all that leaves out the guys who were maybe good schools players, went on to be very good underage players and then excellent pros - Keenan, Ringrose, Sexton, O'Driscoll. You just don't know what you are passing on, especially before u20 level. It's a shame we won't see these lads play 20s for Ireland. I know you like to think everyone a Leinster really knows what they're doing but I think letting the two best centre prospects go when it's hardly an area of depth is a bit of a balls up.
What you don't seem to get is that Leinster currently have limited FINANCES, are you going to magic up money for them?. What I have heard from other sources who have seen Berti alot more than you and I i is that he is decent but similar to players we already have JOB/Hawkshaw/Turner so not the HUGE loss you seem to be making out. These lads decided to chase cash early fair play to them, lets see how it turns out (hopefully good). Don't give me the bullsh*t that a lad who went to Newbridge can't afford to be in the subacademy first while in college.
Leinster have and will lose young players to other clubs/sports as do every other PRO rugby team. Re your examples Sexton wasn't in academy and played AIL he wasn't getting paid either!!. Ringrose was an exceptional under 20s player and like BOD moved to centre late in school so wouldn't have the years of hype of others. Keenan went and played 7s to improve. As everybody has said if they do well if they want to play for Ireland they will need to come back and won't be eligible for England for 5 years.
And yet there was money up in Ulster for Duane Vermeulen and for a truckload of South Africans down in Munster. Leinster just lost Scott Fardy with no replacement. I think they should have found a way to keep at least one of Martin/Berti Newman to be honest. You don't, that's fine.

Keenan was very good at U20 level. Outshone a bit by other players in a strong side but very good nonetheless. Ringrose was outstanding. Neither were stars as such at school level as far as I can recall but no doubt showed promise. Sexton did play for Ireland underage I think, open to correction on that.
What the hell do Ulster and Munster have to do with Leinster academy? So we should sign an 18 yr old small centre to replace and international 2nd row/6 :lol: :lol: Still waiting on your magic money tree.
Keenan was very lightweight when young and needed to fill frame a bit more. Ringrose didn't miss a kick during his SCT campaign and scored a try in the final. Sexton was behind Steenson for the Irish under 20's.
Exactly, he was a good schools player but not hyped to the max like some others. Then really stepped up at 20s level to the surprise of even his own coaches.

I seem to remember that Sexton played AIL because he wanted to rather than necessarily having to claw his way up through the ranks, although you'd know more than me as a Mary's man.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

irishrugbyua wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:49 am Lucas Berti Newman signed with Bristol. Very talented outside back from Newbridge, probably concerns about his size but certainly another talent lost to abroad.
You said it yourself he is undersized, is he going to have a growth spurt?
You have also complained in past that Leinster produce too many small, good footballing undersized backs
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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(15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, Brad Roberts, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Sam Carter (Capt.), Greg Jones, Sean Reidy, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O’Toole, Mick Kearney, Matty Rea, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, Will Addison.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

CONNACHT RUGBY MATCHDAY 23 VS CARDIFF RUGBY
Friday 24th September, Cardiff Arms Park @ 19:35

Number/Name/Caps (* denotes uncapped)
15. Tiernan O’Halloran (190)
14. John Porch (40)
13. Tom Farrell (62)
12. Tom Daly (49)
11. Mack Hansen *
10. Jack Carty (159)
9. Kieran Marmion (187)
1. Matthew Burke (23)
2. Shane Delahunt (100)
3. Finlay Bealham (159)
4. Oisin Dowling (7)
5. Ultan Dillane (114)
6. Cian Prendergast (10)
7. Conor Oliver (20)
8. Jarrad Butler (73) (C)

16. Dave Heffernan (144)
17. Jordan Duggan (13)
18. Dominic Robertson-McCoy (68)
19. Niall Murray (18)
20. Paul Boyle (57)
21. Hubert Gilvarry *
22. Conor Fitzgerald (36)
23. Sammy Arnold (16)
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:56 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:44 am Leinster could have afford an 8k academy contract if they wanted, but they didn't, was that a mistake? we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, I think this is the key point. If they really wanted to keep these guys they could have, financially speaking

So it's basically a judgement on Leinsters part that they don't need/want them. Harsh, but thats the reality of lots of good players coming out of the schools system and a limited number of places. Some of those decisions may turn out to be bad ones, but that is also the nature of the system - until you get a sustained set of obviously bad decisions, I don't think we have a strong position to criticise the system.

As someone pointed out, when you now have a 5 year qualifiying period in place, those 18 year olds have up to 5 years before they risk become a (permanent) loss to the Irish system. Leinster have a very well regarded player development path, but I doubt Bristol's is so much inferior that a talented player who would have made it in Leinster gets lost to the game completely. If the player develops at BRistol to the point where they'd be in contention for a place in the Leinster side, then they're not going to be a million miles off the standard for an Irish squad. For which they'd need to move home anyway. So the risks associated with 'losing' the player seem to me to be relatively small. Those players presumably would still be available for U20s etc, so plenty of chance to keep an eye on their progress and to start conversations about returning home.
Yes precisely, such a small amount would of course be available. But Leinster want potential academy entrants to have served some time in the sub-academy. Perhaps this is a little unwise for the top prospects because if you hang about they'll get picked off by competitors.

5 year rule doesn't come into it. If they are in an academy in another country they're good to go. Same as Knox in Munster.
Last edited by hermie on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:56 am
irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:44 am Leinster could have afford an 8k academy contract if they wanted, but they didn't, was that a mistake? we will have to wait and see.
Yeah, I think this is the key point. If they really wanted to keep these guys they could have, financially speaking

So it's basically a judgement on Leinsters part that they don't need/want them. Harsh, but thats the reality of lots of good players coming out of the schools system and a limited number of places. Some of those decisions may turn out to be bad ones, but that is also the nature of the system - until you get a sustained set of obviously bad decisions, I don't think we have a strong position to criticise the system.

As someone pointed out, when you now have a 5 year qualifiying period in place, those 18 year olds have up to 5 years before they risk become a (permanent) loss to the Irish system. Leinster have a very well regarded player development path, but I doubt Bristol's is so much inferior that a talented player who would have made it in Leinster gets lost to the game completely. If the player develops at BRistol to the point where they'd be in contention for a place in the Leinster side, then they're not going to be a million miles off the standard for an Irish squad. For which they'd need to move home anyway. So the risks associated with 'losing' the player seem to me to be relatively small. Those players presumably would still be available for U20s etc, so plenty of chance to keep an eye on their progress and to start conversations about returning home.
Wont be available for 20s afaik

Leinsters academy is going through a transition in leadership and losing two top centres during that transition is hopefully not the beginning of a trend.

Theres been some other questionable decisions recently that wouldnt leave you with the feeling that the academy is working at its peak, along with the over reliance on two schools.
Last edited by irishrugbyua on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:05 pm 5 year rule doesn't come into it. If they are in an academy in another country they're good to go. Same as Knox in Munster.
Pretty sure the 5 year qualification applies to everyone - unless of course they're already eligible for their 'new' country. Knox can play for Munster during his qualification period, but still has to serve his time to be able to play for Ireland.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by DeDoc »

earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:03 pm (15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, Brad Roberts, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Sam Carter (Capt.), Greg Jones, Sean Reidy, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O’Toole, Mick Kearney, Matty Rea, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, Will Addison.
Interesting selection. Bench front row is the stronger one it would appear - who is Brad Roberts?
Great to see Doak involved. Is Madigan injured, or has Lowry overtaken him in the pecking order for 10s?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by rialtoblue »

DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:08 pm
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:05 pm 5 year rule doesn't come into it. If they are in an academy in another country they're good to go. Same as Knox in Munster.
Pretty sure the 5 year qualification applies to everyone - unless of course they're already eligible for their 'new' country. Knox can play for Munster during his qualification period, but still has to serve his time to be able to play for Ireland.
I think Knox got in before it went to 5
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

Great to see Lowry covering 10. Odd to see Addison and Herring on the bench however.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:04 pm CONNACHT RUGBY MATCHDAY 23 VS CARDIFF RUGBY
Friday 24th September, Cardiff Arms Park @ 19:35

Number/Name/Caps (* denotes uncapped)
15. Tiernan O’Halloran (190)
14. John Porch (40)
13. Tom Farrell (62)
12. Tom Daly (49)
11. Mack Hansen *
10. Jack Carty (159)
9. Kieran Marmion (187)
1. Matthew Burke (23)
2. Shane Delahunt (100)
3. Finlay Bealham (159)
4. Oisin Dowling (7)
5. Ultan Dillane (114)
6. Cian Prendergast (10)
7. Conor Oliver (20)
8. Jarrad Butler (73) (C)

16. Dave Heffernan (144)
17. Jordan Duggan (13)
18. Dominic Robertson-McCoy (68)
19. Niall Murray (18)
20. Paul Boyle (57)
21. Hubert Gilvarry *
22. Conor Fitzgerald (36)
23. Sammy Arnold (16)
Gilvarry is an academy lad, right? Is Hansen a new signing?
Lots of noise coming from Cardiff about how much fitter they are and how fast a fame they want to play. Not much of the way of incoming players for them, so be interesting to see how much they improve, if at all
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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rialtoblue wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:16 pm I think Knox got in before it went to 5
Seems to be correct alright:
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/munsters ... ule-146874
Although still has to qualify for Ireland under residency rule - just means that he can still avail of the shorter 3 year period, rather than 5 for anyone doing it now
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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Article there on the 42 I think about Jarred Butler - said he was eligible to play for Ireland, but now isn't until he completes his 5 years -> implying basically that those who qualified after three years only had a certain window to avail of it until they too became subject of the 5 year rule.

Could be bollox reporting of course, and frankly my dear I don't give a damn, but did make me scratch my chin a little.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:08 pm
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:05 pm 5 year rule doesn't come into it. If they are in an academy in another country they're good to go. Same as Knox in Munster.
Pretty sure the 5 year qualification applies to everyone - unless of course they're already eligible for their 'new' country. Knox can play for Munster during his qualification period, but still has to serve his time to be able to play for Ireland.
Knox is already Irish qualified as he joined Munster academy before the 31st Dec 2017 .
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:10 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:03 pm (15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, Brad Roberts, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Sam Carter (Capt.), Greg Jones, Sean Reidy, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O’Toole, Mick Kearney, Matty Rea, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, Will Addison.
Interesting selection. Bench front row is the stronger one it would appear - who is Brad Roberts?
Great to see Doak involved. Is Madigan injured, or has Lowry overtaken him in the pecking order for 10s?
Maddog listed as injured. Addison and Herring are just back from injury I've read.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by PornDog »

PornDog wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:41 pm Article there on the 42 I think about Jarred Butler - said he was eligible to play for Ireland, but now isn't until he completes his 5 years -> implying basically that those who qualified after three years only had a certain window to avail of it until they too became subject of the 5 year rule.

Could be bollox reporting of course, and frankly my dear I don't give a damn, but did make me scratch my chin a little.
While Butler was initially set to become Irish-qualified in 2020, the fact that he wasn’t capped by Ireland at that stage means he now has to complete five years of residency under the new World Rugby regulations.
https://www.the42.ie/jarrad-butler-conn ... 7-Sep2021/
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:18 pm
irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:04 pm CONNACHT RUGBY MATCHDAY 23 VS CARDIFF RUGBY
Friday 24th September, Cardiff Arms Park @ 19:35

Number/Name/Caps (* denotes uncapped)
15. Tiernan O’Halloran (190)
14. John Porch (40)
13. Tom Farrell (62)
12. Tom Daly (49)
11. Mack Hansen *
10. Jack Carty (159)
9. Kieran Marmion (187)
1. Matthew Burke (23)
2. Shane Delahunt (100)
3. Finlay Bealham (159)
4. Oisin Dowling (7)
5. Ultan Dillane (114)
6. Cian Prendergast (10)
7. Conor Oliver (20)
8. Jarrad Butler (73) (C)

16. Dave Heffernan (144)
17. Jordan Duggan (13)
18. Dominic Robertson-McCoy (68)
19. Niall Murray (18)
20. Paul Boyle (57)
21. Hubert Gilvarry *
22. Conor Fitzgerald (36)
23. Sammy Arnold (16)
Gilvarry is an academy lad, right? Is Hansen a new signing?
Lots of noise coming from Cardiff about how much fitter they are and how fast a fame they want to play. Not much of the way of incoming players for them, so be interesting to see how much they improve, if at all
sub-academy or at least he was, he converted to 9 in the last year so somewhat surprising he is ahead of Reilly.
Last edited by irishrugbyua on Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:43 pm
DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:10 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:03 pm (15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, Brad Roberts, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Sam Carter (Capt.), Greg Jones, Sean Reidy, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O’Toole, Mick Kearney, Matty Rea, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, Will Addison.
Interesting selection. Bench front row is the stronger one it would appear - who is Brad Roberts?
Great to see Doak involved. Is Madigan injured, or has Lowry overtaken him in the pecking order for 10s?
Maddog listed as injured. Addison and Herring are just back from injury I've read.
I hope Lowry gets more time at 10 this season rather than having both Burns and Madigan in the 23 anyway.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Unsurprisingly Jackman sounded off on Berti Newman and how the leinster academy isn't working for everyone in leinster at the moment on the42 rugby weekly podcast, starts at 43mins in: https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1 ... 73634?s=20
Last edited by irishrugbyua on Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:08 pm
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:43 pm
DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:10 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:03 pm (15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, Brad Roberts, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Sam Carter (Capt.), Greg Jones, Sean Reidy, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O’Toole, Mick Kearney, Matty Rea, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, Will Addison.
Interesting selection. Bench front row is the stronger one it would appear - who is Brad Roberts?
Great to see Doak involved. Is Madigan injured, or has Lowry overtaken him in the pecking order for 10s?
Maddog listed as injured. Addison and Herring are just back from injury I've read.
I hope Lowry gets more time at 10 this season rather than having both Burns and Madigan in the 23 anyway.
It won't happen but they should back Lowry and Burns should be the one the lose out. You'd love to see Cooney and Lowry paired. They're both such threats they can really take the string out of modern defenses. Also if a flanker is too eager on a short lad like Lowry they can risk a yellow or even red card for a high tackle. People will always mention his size but with two brutes in the centre outside him it's still a well balanced backline. And if the halfbacks are buying half a second inside, Ulster really have the outside backs to do a lot of damage.

Doak should be on the fast-track as well but although he can placekick you'd rather he not assume that extra responsibility this early. Madigan is a proven match-winner off the bench.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by earl the beaver »

hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:51 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:08 pm
hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:43 pm
DeDoc wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:10 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:03 pm (15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Robert Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, John Cooney;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, Brad Roberts, Marty Moore, Alan O’Connor, Sam Carter (Capt.), Greg Jones, Sean Reidy, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O’Toole, Mick Kearney, Matty Rea, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, Will Addison.
Interesting selection. Bench front row is the stronger one it would appear - who is Brad Roberts?
Great to see Doak involved. Is Madigan injured, or has Lowry overtaken him in the pecking order for 10s?
Maddog listed as injured. Addison and Herring are just back from injury I've read.
I hope Lowry gets more time at 10 this season rather than having both Burns and Madigan in the 23 anyway.
It won't happen but they should back Lowry and Burns should be the one the lose out. You'd love to see Cooney and Lowry paired. They're both such threats they can really take the string out of modern defenses. Also if a flanker is too eager on a short lad like Lowry they can risk a yellow or even red card for a high tackle. People will always mention his size but with two brutes in the centre outside him it's still a well balanced backline. And if the halfbacks are buying half a second inside, Ulster really have the outside backs to do a lot of damage.

Doak should be on the fast-track as well but although he can placekick you'd rather he not assume that extra responsibility this early. Madigan is a proven match-winner off the bench.
Lowry should play 10 this season, we only have Burns and Madigan. I'd rather Lowry in the long term but we need to see him perform there before we install him as first choice.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:41 pm Unsurprisingly Jackman sounded off on Berti Newman and how the leinster academy is working at the moment on the42 rugby weekly podcast, starts at 43mins in: https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1 ... 73634?s=20
Jackman said later in this that he has heard speculation that Andrew Porter will start at 1, with Healy on the bench at 18 vs the Bulls.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

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Leinster Rugby Development XV vs. Munster Rugby Development XV

15. Aitzol Arenzana-King(u20)
14. Fionn Gibbons(u20)
13. Ben Brownlee(u20)
12. Daniel Hawkshaw(u20)
11. Callam O’Reilly(u20)
10. David Hawkshaw
9. Cormac Foley
1. Ben Popplewell(u20)
2. John McKee (CAPTAIN)
3. Vakh Abdalaze
4. Fionn McWey(u20)
5. Conor O’Tighearnaigh(u20)
6. Brian Deeny
7. Martin Moloney
8. Luke Callinan(u20)

Replacements:
16. Howard Noonan(u20)
17. Oisin Michel(u20)
18. Rory McGuire(u20)
19. Ruairi Clarke(u20)
20. Stephen Woods(u20)
21. Diarmuid Mangan(u19)
22. Seanan Devereux(u20)
23. Sam Prendergast(u19)
24. Conor Gibney(u20)
25. JJ Hession(u20) - TH Prop
26. Barry Gray(u20) - Hooker
27. Michael Molony(u20) - Scrumhalf
28. Scott Milne(u20) - Wing
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:37 pm Leinster Rugby Development XV vs. Munster Rugby Development XV

15. Aitzol Arenzana-King(u20)
14. Fionn Gibbons(u20)
13. Ben Brownlee(u20)
12. Daniel Hawkshaw(u20)
11. Callam O’Reilly(u20)
10. David Hawkshaw
9. Cormac Foley
1. Ben Popplewell(u20)
2. John McKee (CAPTAIN)
3. Vakh Abdalaze
4. Fionn McWey(u20)
5. Conor O’Tighearnaigh(u20)
6. Brian Deeny
7. Martin Moloney
8. Luke Callinan(u20)

Replacements:
16. Howard Noonan(u20)
17. Oisin Michel(u20)
18. Rory McGuire(u20)
19. Ruairi Clarke(u20)
20. Stephen Woods(u20)
21. Diarmuid Mangan(u19)
22. Seanan Devereux(u20)
23. Sam Prendergast(u19)
24. Conor Gibney(u20)
25. JJ Hession(u20) - TH Prop
26. Barry Gray(u20) - Hooker
27. Michael Molony(u20) - Scrumhalf
28. Scott Milne(u20) - Wing
Now there is a player I heard has got good size, have you seen much of him.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by hermie »

irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:59 pm
irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:41 pm Unsurprisingly Jackman sounded off on Berti Newman and how the leinster academy is working at the moment on the42 rugby weekly podcast, starts at 43mins in: https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1 ... 73634?s=20
Jackman said later in this that he has heard speculation that Andrew Porter will start at 1, with Healy on the bench at 18 vs the Bulls.
At 18 as in TH? With Vakh playing for the development side it does look like it, no? :shock:
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by Luckycharmer »

irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:41 pm Unsurprisingly Jackman sounded off on Berti Newman and how the leinster academy isn't working for everyone in leinster at the moment on the42 rugby weekly podcast, starts at 43mins in: https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1 ... 73634?s=20
The former newbridge pupil going on about the newbridge player? Given over 90% of the current Leinster squad came through the academy, they must be doing ok. Is there any other Pro team worldwide that match them for producing for their own team?
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

hermie wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:53 pm
irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:59 pm
irishrugbyua wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:41 pm Unsurprisingly Jackman sounded off on Berti Newman and how the leinster academy is working at the moment on the42 rugby weekly podcast, starts at 43mins in: https://twitter.com/GavanCasey/status/1 ... 73634?s=20
Jackman said later in this that he has heard speculation that Andrew Porter will start at 1, with Healy on the bench at 18 vs the Bulls.
At 18 as in TH? With Vakh playing for the development side it does look like it, no? :shock:
Unless Porter is at 18.
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

CONNACHT EAGLES MATCHDAY 23 VS ULSTER DEVELOPMENT XV
Friday 24th September, HPC Abbotstown @ 13:00

15 Oran McNulty
14 Josh O’Connor
13 Ben O’Donnell
12 Shayne Bolton
11 Darragh Kennedy(u20)
10 Cathal Forde
9 Matthew Devine(u20)
1 Bart Vermeulen
2 Dylan Tierney Martin
3 Jack Aungier
4 Kacper Palamarczuk(u20)
5 Eoin Ryan(u19)
6 Jonny Murphy
7 Oisin McCormack
8 Ciaran Booth (C)

16 Declan Adamson
17 Charlie Ward
18 Greg McGrath
19 Matthew O’Hara(u20)
20 Gareth Kilkelly(u20)
21 Will Reilly
22 Ruairdhi Fallon(u20)
23 Declan O’Loughlin(u20)
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Re: The Official Irish Rugby Thread

Post by irishrugbyua »

Ulster Rugby team to play Connacht, Development Interprovincial game, Friday 24 September at IRFU High Performance Centre (12 noon):

(15-9) Shea O’Brien, Conor Rankin, Ben Carson(u20), Angus Curtis, Jude Postlethwaite(u20), James Humphreys, Conor McKee;

(1-8) Callum Reid, James McCormick(u20), Scott Wilson, Harry Sheridan (Capt.), Adam McNamee(u20), Lorcan McLoughlin(u20), Reuben Crothers(u20), David McCann.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Josh Hanlon(u20), Joe Mawhinney(u20), Paddy Browne(u19), Ross Taylor(u19), Lewis Finlay, James McNabney(u19), Zac Ward, Ross McKay(u19)
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