New Zealand...fvcked

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Fat Old Git
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Fat Old Git »

Flockwitt wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:03 am
guy smiley wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:16 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:09 am
jambanja wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:54 am So Brabus, we have been informed that we need to get to 90% vaccinated in order to start easing up on restrictions, how do you suggest we achieve that without a “carrot” and if, because of hesitant people we don’t achieve that number are we to live in limbo for the rest of our lives?
The point is not about compliance, It is about human interaction, what exactly are we prepared to sacrifice?
It's not that simple.

In fact, reading that again as I reply, that's almost an offensive take.

Sacrifice? Talk to me about all of the genuinely health compromised people who are at risk through the refusal to vaccinate of a minority. Those people are at risk of being sacrificed for the selfish wants of the few.
This. We are getting vaccinated to protect the weak.
And our health service and people's livelihoods.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by booji boy »

True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Monkey Magic »

booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:17 am
True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
Early on I put that down to how few people had been eligible long enough/vax numbers were so low. But think it is still holding at about 3% of total cases are fully vaccinated
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by booji boy »

Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:36 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:17 am
True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
Early on I put that down to how few people had been eligible long enough/vax numbers were so low. But think it is still holding at about 3% of total cases are fully vaccinated
Yeah so the low death rate, whilst still great news, is not because of the vaccination.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by obelixtim »

Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:09 am
jambanja wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:54 am So Brabus, we have been informed that we need to get to 90% vaccinated in order to start easing up on restrictions, how do you suggest we achieve that without a “carrot” and if, because of hesitant people we don’t achieve that number are we to live in limbo for the rest of our lives?
The point is not about compliance, It is about human interaction, what exactly are we prepared to sacrifice?
At this point in time, the unvaccinated are not the enemy. The enemy are the anti vax loons actively spreading misinformation and counselling people not to get vaxxed. And the free dum brigade. You can't blame people who are far away from vaccination centres, or are medically at risk from the vax, or even those who are confused by the mixed messages they are getting.

Those actively promoting the anti vax message can eat the vax sandwich and take all the consequences that come with that. I hope they suffer.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

obelixtim wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:58 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:09 am
jambanja wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:54 am So Brabus, we have been informed that we need to get to 90% vaccinated in order to start easing up on restrictions, how do you suggest we achieve that without a “carrot” and if, because of hesitant people we don’t achieve that number are we to live in limbo for the rest of our lives?
The point is not about compliance, It is about human interaction, what exactly are we prepared to sacrifice?
At this point in time, the unvaccinated are not the enemy. The enemy are the anti vax loons actively spreading misinformation and counselling people not to get vaxxed. And the free dum brigade. You can't blame people who are far away from vaccination centres, or are medically at risk from the vax, or even those who are confused by the mixed messages they are getting.

Those actively promoting the anti vax message can eat the vax sandwich and take all the consequences that come with that. I hope they suffer.
I have absolutely no time for the anti vax loons. You are however falling into a trap with the "free dum" rhetoric this will do nothing but cement their views.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Fat Old Git »

booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:55 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:36 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:17 am
True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
Early on I put that down to how few people had been eligible long enough/vax numbers were so low. But think it is still holding at about 3% of total cases are fully vaccinated
Yeah so the low death rate, whilst still great news, is not because of the vaccination.
It's certainly difficult to measure. But without the vaccine more people in the high risk categories, who were eligible earlier than most, would have it. And our health services would likely be overwhelmed as we have seen in other parts of the world. So it's highly likely that the vaccine has helped reduce the death rate.
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Gordon Bennett
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Gordon Bennett »

Rode the bike up the Remutaka Incline today. Anti-vax stickers all over the signposts, on the hand sanitiser dispensers in the toilets. Ripped down all that I could or at least removed the URL on them so people can't go down the rabbit hole.

"You wouldn't call someone who didn't like car seats anti-car seat, so why do people who question vaccines get called anti-vaxx" one of them said. Well, I suspect if there was a systematic campaign against car seats based on spurious information, one might well call them anti-car seat. Most peculiar argument that one. Most of them were the usual bullshit though.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Windguru »

An early example of the vaccinations efficacy came from the very first case in this latest outbreak. The tradesman from Devonport. Unvaccinated, he tested positive after he'd travelled all the way to Coromandel and back with his double dosed wife without infecting with her. He did however pass it on to his unvaxed daughter.
His wife is not recorded as a case but i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts she'd have caught it otherwise. There is no record of all the times this sort of thing happens but the benefits do become apparent with those breakthrough cases having less severe outcomes than otherwise.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Fat Old Git »

Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
You're sounding dangerously close to the "nazi Germany has arrived in NZ" crowd even though the claim is every bit as ridiculous as the anti vaccination claims.

You already need suitable papers to participate in many of our societies activities. To drive a car, fly a plane or river a forklift. Perform surgery. Practice as a health professional or a teacher (in most cases). Proof of suitable vaccination has long been required for travel to certain parts of the world. Yellow fever for example.

Police checks are required before you can be employed in many areas. As are health assessments.

Proof of age is required for many activities.

Far more people would have trouble getting these documents and meeting these requirements than will struggle to get a vaccination passport / certificate with all of the incentives that come with it. And those who genuinely can't are likely to get an exemption.

And your "natural immunity" and "government certified document can't tell us who is safe" bit us right out of the anti vaxx naxi Germany playbook as well. It's overplaying natural immunity and totally ignores that this is about minimising risk not totally eliminating it.

We're required to do all sorts of other things on a daily basis in order to minimise risk. Wear a seat belt. Stick to the speed limit, stop at red lights. Not use of mobile devices in certain circumstances. Wear appropriate PPE.

But no one is protesting about these or suggesting we ditch all these because they're not guaranteed to keep us 100% safe all of the time.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Grandpa »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:55 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:55 am
Yeah so the low death rate, whilst still great news, is not because of the vaccination.
It's certainly difficult to measure. But without the vaccine more people in the high risk categories, who were eligible earlier than most, would have it. And our health services would likely be overwhelmed as we have seen in other parts of the world. So it's highly likely that the vaccine has helped reduce the death rate.
Though it's the UK, it does provide some background...
In England, unvaccinated people were at least three times as likely to need hospital care as vaccinated people, according to the most recent Public Health England figures for the previous three weeks.

In the oldest group - the over-80s - 141 people in every 100,000 unvaccinated people ended up in hospital with Covid compared with 54 in every 100,000 vaccinated people. In the youngest - the under-18s - four unvaccinated people in every 100,000 needed overnight hospital treatment compared with zero in the vaccinated group.

Deaths are also being kept at a much lower level than when cases were previously this high.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58954793
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:15 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
You're sounding dangerously close to the "nazi Germany has arrived in NZ" crowd even though the claim is every bit as ridiculous as the anti vaccination claims.

You already need suitable papers to participate in many of our societies activities. To drive a car, fly a plane or river a forklift. Perform surgery. Practice as a health professional or a teacher (in most cases). Proof of suitable vaccination has long been required for travel to certain parts of the world. Yellow fever for example.

Police checks are required before you can be employed in many areas. As are health assessments.

Proof of age is required for many activities.

Far more people would have trouble getting these documents and meeting these requirements than will struggle to get a vaccination passport / certificate with all of the incentives that come with it. And those who genuinely can't are likely to get an exemption.

And your "natural immunity" and "government certified document can't tell us who is safe" bit us right out of the anti vaxx naxi Germany playbook as well. It's overplaying natural immunity and totally ignores that this is about minimising risk not totally eliminating it.

We're required to do all sorts of other things on a daily basis in order to minimise risk. Wear a seat belt. Stick to the speed limit, stop at red lights. Not use of mobile devices in certain circumstances. Wear appropriate PPE.

But no one is protesting about these or suggesting we ditch all these because they're not guaranteed to keep us 100% safe all of the time.
Oh I'm aware but we are talking around the margins here. My bringing up natural immunity is purely to demonstrate that a certificate doesn't inoculate risk, as vaccination no longer does. I am entirely concerned with the rhetoric and where that might lead.
[edit] once again I believe in vaccination and the mitigation that it has shown to have on hospitalisation and the most severe of symptoms.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by guy smiley »

Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:10 am Oh I'm aware but we are talking around the margins here. My bringing up natural immunity is purely to demonstrate that a certificate doesn't inoculate risk, as vaccination no longer does.
I think natural immunity is a false hope. A red herring, perhaps.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanm ... 6/fulltext
Findings
We obtained antibody optical density data for six human-infecting coronaviruses, extending from 128 days to 28 years after infection between 1984 and 2020. These data provided a means to estimate profiles of the typical antibody decline and probabilities of reinfection over time under endemic conditions. Reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 under endemic conditions would likely occur between 3 months and 5·1 years after peak antibody response, with a median of 16 months. This protection is less than half the duration revealed for the endemic coronaviruses circulating among humans (5–95% quantiles 15 months to 10 years for HCoV-OC43, 31 months to 12 years for HCoV-NL63, and 16 months to 12 years for HCoV-229E). For SARS-CoV, the 5–95% quantiles were 4 months to 6 years, whereas the 95% quantiles for MERS-CoV were inconsistent by dataset.
Interpretation
The timeframe for reinfection is fundamental to numerous aspects of public health decision making. As the COVID-19 pandemic continues, reinfection is likely to become increasingly common. Maintaining public health measures that curb transmission—including among individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2—coupled with persistent efforts to accelerate vaccination worldwide is critical to the prevention of COVID-19 morbidity and mortality.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

guy smiley wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:02 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:10 am Oh I'm aware but we are talking around the margins here. My bringing up natural immunity is purely to demonstrate that a certificate doesn't inoculate risk, as vaccination no longer does.
I think natural immunity is a false hope. A red herring, perhaps.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanm ... 6/fulltext
Findings
We obtained antibody optical density data for six human-infecting coronaviruses, extending from 128 days to 28 years after infection between 1984 and 2020. These data provided a means to estimate profiles of the typical antibody decline and probabilities of reinfection over time under endemic conditions. Reinfection by SARS-CoV-2 under endemic conditions would likely occur between 3 months and 5·1 years after peak antibody response, with a median of 16 months. This protection is less than half the duration revealed for the endemic coronaviruses circulating among humans (5–95% quantiles 15 months to 10 years for HCoV-OC43, 31 months to 12 years for HCoV-NL63, and 16 months to 12 years for HCoV-229E). For SARS-CoV, the 5–95% quantiles were 4 months to 6 years, whereas the 95% quantiles for MERS-CoV were inconsistent by dataset.
Interpretation
The timeframe for reinfection is fundamental to numerous aspects of public health decision making. As the COVID-19 pandemic continues, reinfection is likely to become increasingly common. Maintaining public health measures that curb transmission—including among individuals who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2—coupled with persistent efforts to accelerate vaccination worldwide is critical to the prevention of COVID-19 morbidity and mortality.
What we are talking about here, assuming the first doses get the second is at this moment around 14% There is natural immunity within that 14%. I am not talking about false hope I am simply putting a plea out that we do not forget our humanity in the face of fear. Yes I know that that is overly emotive but this is the game we are currently playing.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by True Blue »

booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:55 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:36 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:17 am
True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
Early on I put that down to how few people had been eligible long enough/vax numbers were so low. But think it is still holding at about 3% of total cases are fully vaccinated
Yeah so the low death rate, whilst still great news, is not because of the vaccination.
I think it is, most of the high risk have the shot so the people getting sick enough to go to hospital are younger and can fight it off easier.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by booji boy »

True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:48 pm
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:55 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:36 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:17 am
True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
Early on I put that down to how few people had been eligible long enough/vax numbers were so low. But think it is still holding at about 3% of total cases are fully vaccinated
Yeah so the low death rate, whilst still great news, is not because of the vaccination.
I think it is, most of the high risk have the shot so the people getting sick enough to go to hospital are younger and can fight it off easier.
:thumbup:
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:15 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
You're sounding dangerously close to the "nazi Germany has arrived in NZ" crowd even though the claim is every bit as ridiculous as the anti vaccination claims.

You already need suitable papers to participate in many of our societies activities. To drive a car, fly a plane or river a forklift. Perform surgery. Practice as a health professional or a teacher (in most cases). Proof of suitable vaccination has long been required for travel to certain parts of the world. Yellow fever for example.

Police checks are required before you can be employed in many areas. As are health assessments.

Proof of age is required for many activities.

Far more people would have trouble getting these documents and meeting these requirements than will struggle to get a vaccination passport / certificate with all of the incentives that come with it. And those who genuinely can't are likely to get an exemption.

And your "natural immunity" and "government certified document can't tell us who is safe" bit us right out of the anti vaxx naxi Germany playbook as well. It's overplaying natural immunity and totally ignores that this is about minimising risk not totally eliminating it.

We're required to do all sorts of other things on a daily basis in order to minimise risk. Wear a seat belt. Stick to the speed limit, stop at red lights. Not use of mobile devices in certain circumstances. Wear appropriate PPE.

But no one is protesting about these or suggesting we ditch all these because they're not guaranteed to keep us 100% safe all of the time.
Also the examples of certification you have given are all skill based and therefore justified. There is no skill required in order to get vaccinated. What we are talking about is segregating people based upon belief. And whilst I fully acknowledge that those beliefs are not rooted in science I can also see how this can turn horribly wrong.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Eugenius »

How ?
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by UncleFB »

Eugenius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 am How ?
Have you not noticed the civil war going on here in Sydney since the right wing religious fundamentalist state govt implemented no vax no beers?
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

Eugenius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 am How ?
If you are talking to me please make that clear, however even if you were this response has me scratching my head.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

UncleFB wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:23 am
Eugenius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 am How ?
Have you not noticed the civil war going on here in Sydney since the right wing religious fundamentalist state govt implemented no vax no beers?
Now here's the thing when a person starts a conversation with the labeling of the opposition as opposed to arguing the point I lose interest. Such a person has already shown that they're more interested in pushing their own barrow than actually engaging.
Last edited by Brabus on Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by guy smiley »

Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:23 am
Eugenius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 am How ?
Have you not noticed the civil war going on here in Sydney since the right wing religious fundamentalist state govt implemented no vax no beers?
Now here's the thing when a person starts a conversation with the labeling of the opposition as opposed to arguing the point I lose interest. Such a person has already shown that they're more interested in pushing their own barrow then actually engaging.
You seem to have fallen into a sarchasm there. Would you like a hand to get out?
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:35 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:23 am
Eugenius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 am How ?
Have you not noticed the civil war going on here in Sydney since the right wing religious fundamentalist state govt implemented no vax no beers?
Now here's the thing when a person starts a conversation with the labeling of the opposition as opposed to arguing the point I lose interest. Such a person has already shown that they're more interested in pushing their own barrow then actually engaging.
You seem to have fallen into a sarchasm there. Would you like a hand to get out?
Quite the contrary I firmly believe that when people feel the need to label the speaker prior to engaging the idea that they are not debating with honesty.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by guy smiley »

Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:39 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:35 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:23 am
Eugenius wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 am How ?
Have you not noticed the civil war going on here in Sydney since the right wing religious fundamentalist state govt implemented no vax no beers?
Now here's the thing when a person starts a conversation with the labeling of the opposition as opposed to arguing the point I lose interest. Such a person has already shown that they're more interested in pushing their own barrow then actually engaging.
You seem to have fallen into a sarchasm there. Would you like a hand to get out?
Quite the contrary I firmly believe that when people feel the need to label the speaker prior to engaging the idea that they are not debating with honesty.
So, you're quite happy down there in your sarchasm. Perhaps a little shovel then, to help with the digging?



PS... no-one has been labelled. UncleFB has played on the terms being used by those who oppose the State govt in NSW in their actions managing the Covid situation there.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:43 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:39 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:35 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 am
UncleFB wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:23 am
Have you not noticed the civil war going on here in Sydney since the right wing religious fundamentalist state govt implemented no vax no beers?
Now here's the thing when a person starts a conversation with the labeling of the opposition as opposed to arguing the point I lose interest. Such a person has already shown that they're more interested in pushing their own barrow then actually engaging.
You seem to have fallen into a sarchasm there. Would you like a hand to get out?
Quite the contrary I firmly believe that when people feel the need to label the speaker prior to engaging the idea that they are not debating with honesty.
So, you're quite happy down there in your sarchasm. Perhaps a little shovel then, to help with the digging?



PS... no-one has been labelled. UncleFB has played on the terms being used by those who oppose the State govt in NSW in their actions managing the Covid situation there.
Uncle FB started his comment with the labeling of the other side. He could have positioned his point through reasoned comment but his opening gambit was to label, this is all too familiar. Looking back his whole comment revolved around the labeling.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by guy smiley »

You are determined to find offense within a forum that thrives on mild offense, and then use that finding to reject opinions counter to your own.

I find that dishonest.

I also suggest that within the gentle ribbing that underpins nearly all of our conversations here there is genuine exchange of information and perspective. The key is riding out the bumps and accepting the general thrust of conversations while brushing past those who seem determined to obstruct... as you increasingly seem to be doing.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by UncleFB »

Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:48 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:43 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:39 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:35 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 am
Now here's the thing when a person starts a conversation with the labeling of the opposition as opposed to arguing the point I lose interest. Such a person has already shown that they're more interested in pushing their own barrow then actually engaging.
You seem to have fallen into a sarchasm there. Would you like a hand to get out?
Quite the contrary I firmly believe that when people feel the need to label the speaker prior to engaging the idea that they are not debating with honesty.
So, you're quite happy down there in your sarchasm. Perhaps a little shovel then, to help with the digging?



PS... no-one has been labelled. UncleFB has played on the terms being used by those who oppose the State govt in NSW in their actions managing the Covid situation there.
Uncle FB started his comment with the labeling of the other side. He could have positioned his point through reasoned comment but his opening gambit was to label, this is all too familiar. Looking back his whole comment revolved around the labeling.
You're taking that comment way too seriously.

I think your "this can turn horribly wrong" is overdramatic.
Last edited by UncleFB on Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Brabus
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:56 am You are determined to find offense within a forum that thrives on mild offense, and then use that finding to reject opinions counter to your own.

I find that dishonest.

I also suggest that within the gentle ribbing that underpins nearly all of our conversations here there is genuine exchange of information and perspective. The key is riding out the bumps and accepting the general thrust of conversations while brushing past those who seem determined to obstruct... as you increasingly seem to be doing.
FFS get over yourself. This is a forum, a place where ideas can be aired, we wont agree with them all but my stand point is simply that when people start their argument with their perceived view of the opponent then they are not arguing ideas they are placing their flag in the ground.
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guy smiley
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by guy smiley »

Get over MYself?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok. I'm done here.
Brabus
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

UncleFB wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:03 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:48 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:43 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:39 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:35 am

You seem to have fallen into a sarchasm there. Would you like a hand to get out?
Quite the contrary I firmly believe that when people feel the need to label the speaker prior to engaging the idea that they are not debating with honesty.
So, you're quite happy down there in your sarchasm. Perhaps a little shovel then, to help with the digging?



PS... no-one has been labelled. UncleFB has played on the terms being used by those who oppose the State govt in NSW in their actions managing the Covid situation there.
Uncle FB started his comment with the labeling of the other side. He could have positioned his point through reasoned comment but his opening gambit was to label, this is all too familiar. Looking back his whole comment revolved around the labeling.
You're taking that comment way too seriously.

I think you're "this can turn horribly wrong" is overdramatic.
And when will we know that it has gone horribly wrong? These sorts of revelations typically come after the fact.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by booji boy »

Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:06 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:56 am You are determined to find offense within a forum that thrives on mild offense, and then use that finding to reject opinions counter to your own.

I find that dishonest.

I also suggest that within the gentle ribbing that underpins nearly all of our conversations here there is genuine exchange of information and perspective. The key is riding out the bumps and accepting the general thrust of conversations while brushing past those who seem determined to obstruct... as you increasingly seem to be doing.
FFS get over yourself. This is a forum, a place where ideas can be aired, we wont agree with them all but my stand point is simply that when people start their argument with their perceived view of the opponent then they are not arguing ideas they are placing their flag in the ground.
I dunno, when I start my posts referring to Comrade General Secretary Ardern, Commissar Robertson and The NZ Labour Bolshevik Party Guy and UncleFB take that on board no problem, they just 'ride out the bumps' and roll with it. :P
Brabus
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:08 am Get over MYself?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok. I'm done here.
Fine I hope you have a wonderful week.
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UncleFB
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by UncleFB »

booji boy wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:11 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:06 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:56 am You are determined to find offense within a forum that thrives on mild offense, and then use that finding to reject opinions counter to your own.

I find that dishonest.

I also suggest that within the gentle ribbing that underpins nearly all of our conversations here there is genuine exchange of information and perspective. The key is riding out the bumps and accepting the general thrust of conversations while brushing past those who seem determined to obstruct... as you increasingly seem to be doing.
FFS get over yourself. This is a forum, a place where ideas can be aired, we wont agree with them all but my stand point is simply that when people start their argument with their perceived view of the opponent then they are not arguing ideas they are placing their flag in the ground.
I dunno, when I start my posts referring to Comrade General Secretary Ardern, Commissar Robertson and The NZ Labour Bolshevik Party Guy and UncleFB take that on board no problem, they just 'ride out the bumps' and roll with it. :P
WTF, Guy's a Bolshevik? I'm a Menshevik, please don't lump us together. :x
Brabus
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

booji boy wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:11 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:06 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:56 am You are determined to find offense within a forum that thrives on mild offense, and then use that finding to reject opinions counter to your own.

I find that dishonest.

I also suggest that within the gentle ribbing that underpins nearly all of our conversations here there is genuine exchange of information and perspective. The key is riding out the bumps and accepting the general thrust of conversations while brushing past those who seem determined to obstruct... as you increasingly seem to be doing.
FFS get over yourself. This is a forum, a place where ideas can be aired, we wont agree with them all but my stand point is simply that when people start their argument with their perceived view of the opponent then they are not arguing ideas they are placing their flag in the ground.
I dunno, when I start my posts referring to Comrade General Secretary Ardern, Commissar Robertson and The NZ Labour Bolshevik Party Guy and UncleFB take that on board no problem, they just 'ride out the bumps' and roll with it. :P
Posts are posts, we come here to have a voice. Ideas are what gets me interested, the discounting of ideas based simply upon the perceived transgressions of the speaker turns me off.
Last edited by Brabus on Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ted.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Ted. »

booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:55 am
Monkey Magic wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:36 am
booji boy wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:17 am
True Blue wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:37 am NZ hasn't had a death in over two weeks despite the higher case numbers. Vaccination is certainly helping.
TBH I thought a very high percentage of the new cases to date are unvaccinated?
Early on I put that down to how few people had been eligible long enough/vax numbers were so low. But think it is still holding at about 3% of total cases are fully vaccinated
Yeah so the low death rate, whilst still great news, is not because of the vaccination.
That's not necessarily true.

Given that the most vulnerable were vaccinated first, I think it is doubtless that had they not been vaccinated there would have been considerably more infections and deaths. That is, after all, one of the primary reasons to get vaccinated, is it not?

Or, what FOG said a few posts later. :thumbup:
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Ted. »

Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
You mean like a birth certificate, a passport, a drivers licence, a fire arms licence, a certificate of title, etc, etc.

For pity's sake, be reasonable.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by UncleFB »

Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:19 am
booji boy wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:11 am
Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:06 am
guy smiley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:56 am You are determined to find offense within a forum that thrives on mild offense, and then use that finding to reject opinions counter to your own.

I find that dishonest.

I also suggest that within the gentle ribbing that underpins nearly all of our conversations here there is genuine exchange of information and perspective. The key is riding out the bumps and accepting the general thrust of conversations while brushing past those who seem determined to obstruct... as you increasingly seem to be doing.
FFS get over yourself. This is a forum, a place where ideas can be aired, we wont agree with them all but my stand point is simply that when people start their argument with their perceived view of the opponent then they are not arguing ideas they are placing their flag in the ground.
I dunno, when I start my posts referring to Comrade General Secretary Ardern, Commissar Robertson and The NZ Labour Bolshevik Party Guy and UncleFB take that on board no problem, they just 'ride out the bumps' and roll with it. :P
Posts are posts, we come here to have a voice. Ideas are what gets me interested, the discounting of ideas based simply upon the perceived transgressions of the speaker turns me off.
You're making a mountain out of a molehill. I gave you a real world example of the situation you were discussing through a sarcastic comment. I didn't label you. I labelled the ideology of the govt implementing the restrictions as much of this thread focusses on the ideology of the govt in NZ when whining about restrictions/lockdowns/vax etc.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by RuggaBugga »

Brabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:15 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:15 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
You're sounding dangerously close to the "nazi Germany has arrived in NZ" crowd even though the claim is every bit as ridiculous as the anti vaccination claims.

You already need suitable papers to participate in many of our societies activities. To drive a car, fly a plane or river a forklift. Perform surgery. Practice as a health professional or a teacher (in most cases). Proof of suitable vaccination has long been required for travel to certain parts of the world. Yellow fever for example.

Police checks are required before you can be employed in many areas. As are health assessments.

Proof of age is required for many activities.

Far more people would have trouble getting these documents and meeting these requirements than will struggle to get a vaccination passport / certificate with all of the incentives that come with it. And those who genuinely can't are likely to get an exemption.

And your "natural immunity" and "government certified document can't tell us who is safe" bit us right out of the anti vaxx naxi Germany playbook as well. It's overplaying natural immunity and totally ignores that this is about minimising risk not totally eliminating it.

We're required to do all sorts of other things on a daily basis in order to minimise risk. Wear a seat belt. Stick to the speed limit, stop at red lights. Not use of mobile devices in certain circumstances. Wear appropriate PPE.

But no one is protesting about these or suggesting we ditch all these because they're not guaranteed to keep us 100% safe all of the time.
Also the examples of certification you have given are all skill based and therefore justified. There is no skill required in order to get vaccinated. What we are talking about is segregating people based upon belief. And whilst I fully acknowledge that those beliefs are not rooted in science I can also see how this can turn horribly wrong.
You aren't making a whole lot of sense here tbh. What if I believed I didn't need a medical degree to practice?

You're painting this as big bad govt mandating things however it has the full support of the majority of people. If you wish to participate in society than society in general expects that you conform to its norms. Foremost of which is not putting other members of said society in danger.

You're free to believe whatever you want however when acting upon those beliefs puts others in danger than you must bear the consequences. People will be labelled other because that is exactly what they are.

I doubt we'll launch pogroms over it though so you ca probably relax a bit.
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Re: New Zealand...fvcked

Post by Brabus »

Ted. wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:23 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:57 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:03 am
Brabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:53 am The political class will always latch onto whichever cause best suits their interest
What about if the cause that suits their interest is the right way to go? Do you reject it because it comes from a politician (who will have been advised by scientists and doctors)?

How about people look at what's being proposed and why, and then decide rather than look for (specious?) reasons not to.
No I do not reject it, in fact I am onboard with it. I don't know how many times I need to say that I am double vaccinated and encourage everyone else to be so as well. I also know that there is such a thing as natural immunity and that a government certified document cannot tell us who is safe and who is not. Moreover we should not cede this distinction to anyone, Government or not. Demanding papers to participate in society is something that should be looked on with the utmost distain, power never gives itself up willingly.
You mean like a birth certificate, a passport, a drivers licence, a fire arms licence, a certificate of title, etc, etc.

For pity's sake, be reasonable.
A birth certificate proves citizenry, A passport proves citizenry, a fire arms license shows that you have taken the relative courses to have arms. A certificate of title shows that you are the legal owner. None of these examples point to an individuals ability to function as a safe member of society.
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