International Eligibility Switches Approved

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UncleFB
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by UncleFB »

camroc1 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:24 am My point, such as it was, is that picking players who were born, live and play in NZ, for example, does nothing for actual rugby in Samoa and Tonga.

As I said in my original post, let's wait and see.
It improves the team, same as picking the NZ born and raised O'Aki does for Ireland.

Samoa and Tonga are not like Ireland, they can't support a pro domestic league let alone be part of a pro cross border domestic league. It's silly to view them through that prism.
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Zakar
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Zakar »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:14 am
Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:59 am
camroc1 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:39 am The problem will be if Tonga, Samoa and Fiji just become a series of ex ABs, sort of AB "lite" teams, that have a huge support in Auckland, but little connection to actual rugby in the islands.

But, as you say, give it chance and revisit in a few years if there are problems.
Don't bring Fiji into this, they are a completely different case. They have their own pathways and produce the vast majority of their own players. The only player I can think of that they will want is Nathan Hughes.

At the moment Samoa and Tongan teams are mostly Samoan and Tongan heritage players who weren't good enough to get into the ABs or Wallabies. Some were born there, but they invariably moved to Australia or NZ (or occasionally Japan) to further their rugby.

Now, there is a fair argument that this will discourage internal pathways etc, but on the other hand, the profile of these guys in the islands will bring people to rugby.

All of these players being discussed would retain a strong connection to the islands - that's normal for PI culture.
Yeah, they don't have any room for the 30 ex Wallaby wings and Sevu Reece.
I'm sure Fiji won't be bending over backwards to cap the likes of Henry Speight aged 33. Wingers they have by the bucketload
Last edited by Zakar on Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jay Cee Gee
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:17 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:50 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:25 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:41 pm
UncleFB wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:37 pm
To be honest I really don't think it matters. You could have a player battling away for 7 years trying to get in the ABs only sporadically making it and then switching to the PIs when he's done. They're both two guys committed to NZ rugby for 7 years but only one of them is good enough to play lots of tests. Why should the lots of tests guy be considered any less a PI then the other guy?
He's not any less of a PI, but he does have a much closer connection and association with NZ international rugby. Long retired of course, but Tana Umaga played 70+ tests and captained NZ. Seeing him playing for another team would be much more notable than someone like Sosene Anesi with a single cap.
How many tests and years is your cut off point?
I dunno, it's Mabo the vibe territory.

I'd say 30 tests? It's pretty easy for fringe guys to rack up tests these days, Laumape has 15 over 3 seasons apparently.
I'm not wanting to shitfight, just discussing so don't take this the wrong way, but what if say Piutau plays 31 tests because he's uninjured during anytime, and Laumape plays the exact same number of years, keeps getting injured and tops outn in the mid 20s. Three years later they've both been earning their overseas coin but want to play some international rugby - Piutau is shut out but Laumape is good to go all because of injury.
I mean any thresh-hold is gonna have marginal cases and there's the saying that "Hard cases make bad law". I can see the argument for not having a cap, but I just feel it's a bad look if an AB or Wallaby legend turns up in another jersey. But I also accept that it could happen under the new law and it's probably gonna be a rarity so not gonna lose too much sleep over shit I can't change.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Zakar »

Anyway, potential Tongan team for rwc 2023

15. Piatau
14. Veainu
13. Fekitoa
12. Pita Akhi
11. Israel Folu
10. Sonatane Fosita (best I could think of - he's better than Morath)
9. Augustine Pulu
8. Lopeti Timani
7. Sione Vailunu
6. Vaea Fifita
5. Sitakeli Timani
4. Coleman
3. Tamifuna
2. ???
1. Kepu
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Ellafan
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ellafan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:12 pm
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:00 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:30 pm]

Wow lots of ignorance in this post.

First bolded bit - how does it benefit richer countries? I'm not seeing English eligible players lining up for Tonga/Fiji etc. The richer countries are already taking the best talents.
It could absolutely benefit the NH unions with rich home leagues. Take Piutau for example - he's now gonna be eligible for Tonga. But he's been playing for Bristol for 3 years now and could well be eligible for England too - you don't reckon there's gonna be a bunch of guys in his shoes who won't jump at the chance to play test rugby for a lot more money?
Piutau has a birth link to England?
Even if he did, I think there is some mis-reading of the requirements here.

The requirement is not - "if you don't get picked for country X for 3 years, you can change to a country to which you have a link"

The requirement is "if you stand down from international rugby for 3 years, then ...."

Did Dempsey, when he went to Galsgow, announce "I am standing down from international rugby for 3 years"?
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:48 am
Even if he did, I think there is some mis-reading of the requirements here.

The requirement is not - "if you don't get picked for country X for 3 years, you can change to a country to which you have a link"

The requirement is "if you stand down from international rugby for 3 years, then ...."
Have they actually clarified that players would be required to declare they're standing down anywhere?
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Zakar »

Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:48 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:12 pm
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:00 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:30 pm]

Wow lots of ignorance in this post.

First bolded bit - how does it benefit richer countries? I'm not seeing English eligible players lining up for Tonga/Fiji etc. The richer countries are already taking the best talents.
It could absolutely benefit the NH unions with rich home leagues. Take Piutau for example - he's now gonna be eligible for Tonga. But he's been playing for Bristol for 3 years now and could well be eligible for England too - you don't reckon there's gonna be a bunch of guys in his shoes who won't jump at the chance to play test rugby for a lot more money?
Piutau has a birth link to England?
Even if he did, I think there is some mis-reading of the requirements here.

The requirement is not - "if you don't get picked for country X for 3 years, you can change to a country to which you have a link"

The requirement is "if you stand down from international rugby for 3 years, then ...."

Did Dempsey, when he went to Galsgow, announce "I am standing down from international rugby for 3 years"?
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by paddyor »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:21 pm
Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:12 pm
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:00 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:30 pm]

Wow lots of ignorance in this post.

First bolded bit - how does it benefit richer countries? I'm not seeing English eligible players lining up for Tonga/Fiji etc. The richer countries are already taking the best talents.
It could absolutely benefit the NH unions with rich home leagues. Take Piutau for example - he's now gonna be eligible for Tonga. But he's been playing for Bristol for 3 years now and could well be eligible for England too - you don't reckon there's gonna be a bunch of guys in his shoes who won't jump at the chance to play test rugby for a lot more money?
Piutau has a birth link to England?
Oh yeah, brain fart. Substitute someone with a grandparent, there'll still be plenty.
Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

paddyor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
Not saying it's gonna turn them into world champs or make a major difference, but it expands the pool of eligible players for them and into a higher tier of player at that. The English national team has benefited from being able to cap players through residency and ancestry and this will be a further benefit to them.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by paddyor »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:04 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:56 pm I don't see the fuss of players representing two countries. Its all part of the fun. Lighten up guys.
I just think it makes things look a bit cheap and mickey mouse if a guy who's played for a country for 7 years and 50+ caps turns out for another team. The likes of Piutau, Laumape, Fifita etc - no issue. Julian Savea? That'd be stupid.
It's a bit league alright.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by tubbyj »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:04 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:56 pm I don't see the fuss of players representing two countries. Its all part of the fun. Lighten up guys.
I just think it makes things look a bit cheap and mickey mouse if a guy who's played for a country for 7 years and 50+ caps turns out for another team. The likes of Piutau, Laumape, Fifita etc - no issue. Julian Savea? That'd be stupid.
The like of Carl Hayman is likely to have had a English Grandparent. So when he was brought up by Newcastle and paid to turn his back on the All Blacks he could have also been courted by the English Rugby Union and turned out for England despite having 46 appearances for New Zealand. Nick Evans is another who the Englsih would have loved to have as their 10 and would have likely happened under this new rule.

I agree it is shithouse rule change allowing grandparent qualification and is going to allow England to recruit capped All Blacks Wallabies and Springboks into positions they are weak mainly their backline.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

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It is one thing to watch former NZ Super rugby players turn out for Ireland and enjoy a win against us but if NH teams include former All Blacks it will make a farce of test rugby and open to the same ridicule international rugby league is.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ellafan »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 am
paddyor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
Not saying it's gonna turn them into world champs or make a major difference, but it expands the pool of eligible players for them and into a higher tier of player at that. The English national team has benefited from being able to cap players through residency and ancestry and this will be a further benefit to them.
Has anyone else here actually read the new regulation?

The residency requirement continues as an option to ancestry, and has been lengthened to 5 years as of 1 January 2022 (it is now referred to as the "60 month requirement"). So if Piutau has been in country Y for 5 years, continuously (holidays and tours excused), and at some point 3 years ago actually announced he was standing down from international rugby for 3 years (as opposed to just didn't get picked anymore), then, he can make an application to the "World Rugby Regulations Committee" to play for England or wherever he has been living for five (5) years without producing a grand-parent's birth certificate.

No indication has been given as to the criteria to be applied, or policy imperatives, of that committee when determining an application, other than motherhood statements about the best interests of world rugby (and for that matter, World Rugby).

So, if Charlie Piutau has been resident continuously in England since 2018, in 2023 he could make an application, without reference to ancestors, to play for England. I'd suspect that would end in "Application refused".

If, on the other hand, leaving NZ in 2015 is considered to be standing down from international rugby (and arguably it was given the NZ selection policies of the time), and Charlie Piutau presents an application on 2/1/22 to change eligibility to Tonga with a chain of birth certificates annexed, that could well be "Application approved".

In summary, if WR policy is that allegiance change applications to move from a tier 1 nation to another tier 1 nation will be refused, then you can expect the committee to act accordingly. The tier one nations will not, if that is the case, benefit from the change.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:31 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 am
paddyor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
Not saying it's gonna turn them into world champs or make a major difference, but it expands the pool of eligible players for them and into a higher tier of player at that. The English national team has benefited from being able to cap players through residency and ancestry and this will be a further benefit to them.
Has anyone else here actually read the new regulation?

The residency requirement continues as an option to ancestry, and has been lengthened to 5 years as of 1 January 2022 (it is now referred to as the "60 month requirement"). So if Piutau has been in country Y for 5 years, continuously (holidays and tours excused), and at some point 3 years ago actually announced he was standing down from international rugby for 3 years (as opposed to just didn't get picked anymore), then, he can make an application to the "World Rugby Regulations Committee" to play for England or wherever he has been living for five (5) years without producing a grand-parent's birth certificate.

No indication has been given as to the criteria to be applied, or policy imperatives, of that committee when determining an application, other than motherhood statements about the best interests of world rugby (and for that matter, World Rugby).

So, if Charlie Piutau has been resident continuously in England since 2018, in 2023 he could make an application, without reference to ancestors, to play for England. I'd suspect that would end in "Application refused".

If, on the other hand, leaving NZ in 2015 is considered to be standing down from international rugby (and arguably it was given the NZ selection policies of the time), and Charlie Piutau presents an application on 2/1/22 to change eligibility to Tonga with a chain of birth certificates annexed, that could well be "Application approved".

In summary, if WR policy is that allegiance change applications to move from a tier 1 nation to another tier 1 nation will be refused, then you can expect the committee to act accordingly. The tier one nations will not, if that is the case, benefit from the change.
I'd be astounded if 'stand down' were interpreted in any other way than "Hasn't played test rugby for 3 years".
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Also, if WR policy were to refuse all tier 1 to tier 1 transfers without actually having any written regulations limiting such transfers, that'd be a clear cut case of fettering their discretion and leave them open to legal challenge.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ellafan »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:37 am
I'd be astounded if 'stand down' were interpreted in any other way than "Hasn't played test rugby for 3 years".
I wouldn't - because the words "stand down" have a natural and ordinary meaning, including an element of choice, which is quite different to "hasn't been selected", an involuntary state of affairs.

If simply not playing international rugby for three years was the criterium, they would have said so.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:37 am
I'd be astounded if 'stand down' were interpreted in any other way than "Hasn't played test rugby for 3 years".
I wouldn't - because the words "stand down" have a natural and ordinary meaning, including an element of choice, which is quite different to "hasn't been selected", an involuntary state of affairs.

If simply not playing international rugby for three years was the criterium, they would have said so.
Have they required any declaration in respect of prior transfers under the 7's loophole? That also requires a stand down.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ellafan »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:39 am Also, if WR policy were to refuse all tier 1 to tier 1 transfers without actually having any written regulations limiting such transfers, that'd be a clear cut case of fettering their discretion and leave them open to legal challenge.
While I agree that it ought to be transparent, at the end of the day the committee is WR's delegate, and WR can't fetter it's own discretion. The national Unions ( and the *Welsh one) all voted on this, and whatever criteria the Unions collectively think should be applied at the opaque 'application' stage will be applied. There is always the possibility that if the player's original union confers its blessing on the move, that will generate an approval.

Things might get interesting if someone breaks ranks, though.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

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Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:11 am
Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:44 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:37 am
I'd be astounded if 'stand down' were interpreted in any other way than "Hasn't played test rugby for 3 years".
I wouldn't - because the words "stand down" have a natural and ordinary meaning, including an element of choice, which is quite different to "hasn't been selected", an involuntary state of affairs.

If simply not playing international rugby for three years was the criterium, they would have said so.
Have they required any declaration in respect of prior transfers under the 7's loophole? That also requires a stand down.
Don't know if this answers your question, but the player had to go and play qualifiers, it wasn't just a matter of turning up for the Olympics. But the 7's rules had to be consistent with the Olympics rules, and they are much laxer.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:12 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:39 am Also, if WR policy were to refuse all tier 1 to tier 1 transfers without actually having any written regulations limiting such transfers, that'd be a clear cut case of fettering their discretion and leave them open to legal challenge.
While I agree that it ought to be transparent, at the end of the day the committee is WR's delegate, and WR can't fetter it's own discretion. The national Unions ( and the *Welsh one) all voted on this, and whatever criteria the Unions collectively think should be applied at the opaque 'application' stage will be applied. There is always the possibility that if the player's original union confers its blessing on the move, that will generate an approval.

Things might get interesting if someone breaks ranks, though.
If they're requiring people to stand down for 3 years and then refusing an application based on a criteria that they hadn't disclosed or included in the regs, they'd be liable to be sued out the arsehole.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

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Jensrsa wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:37 pm
Ellafan wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:30 pm
Jensrsa wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:29 pm Good news but I would have preferred if they brought in a citizenship requirement in place of a parent/grandparent. Loading the PIs with ex-ABs and ex-Wobblies kinda defeats the purpose
I'm not sure there will be many ex-wallabies - we pick guys playing in Australia because we need them in the team, not to cap them off the bench and then warehouse them.
If you guys hadn't pulled Skelton back in this year he would have been available to Samoa

And Quade Cooper for NZ :P
Skelton would certainly be eligible for NZ, but I am not sure her would be eligible for Samoa. Perhaps someone can clear that one up?
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Zakar »

Ted. wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:01 am
Jensrsa wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:37 pm
Ellafan wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:30 pm
Jensrsa wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:29 pm Good news but I would have preferred if they brought in a citizenship requirement in place of a parent/grandparent. Loading the PIs with ex-ABs and ex-Wobblies kinda defeats the purpose
I'm not sure there will be many ex-wallabies - we pick guys playing in Australia because we need them in the team, not to cap them off the bench and then warehouse them.
If you guys hadn't pulled Skelton back in this year he would have been available to Samoa

And Quade Cooper for NZ :P
Skelton would certainly be eligible for NZ, but I am not sure her would be eligible for Samoa. Perhaps someone can clear that one up?
His brother played u20s for Samoa, so imagine he must also be eligible.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jensrsa »

Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:04 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:01 am
Jensrsa wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:37 pm
Ellafan wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:30 pm
Jensrsa wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:29 pm Good news but I would have preferred if they brought in a citizenship requirement in place of a parent/grandparent. Loading the PIs with ex-ABs and ex-Wobblies kinda defeats the purpose
I'm not sure there will be many ex-wallabies - we pick guys playing in Australia because we need them in the team, not to cap them off the bench and then warehouse them.
If you guys hadn't pulled Skelton back in this year he would have been available to Samoa

And Quade Cooper for NZ :P
Skelton would certainly be eligible for NZ, but I am not sure her would be eligible for Samoa. Perhaps someone can clear that one up?
His brother played u20s for Samoa, so imagine he must also be eligible.
He played for Samoa U20 as well
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Hoof »

tubbyj wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:19 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:04 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:56 pm I don't see the fuss of players representing two countries. Its all part of the fun. Lighten up guys.
I just think it makes things look a bit cheap and mickey mouse if a guy who's played for a country for 7 years and 50+ caps turns out for another team. The likes of Piutau, Laumape, Fifita etc - no issue. Julian Savea? That'd be stupid.
The like of Carl Hayman is likely to have had a English Grandparent. So when he was brought up by Newcastle and paid to turn his back on the All Blacks he could have also been courted by the English Rugby Union and turned out for England despite having 46 appearances for New Zealand. Nick Evans is another who the Englsih would have loved to have as their 10 and would have likely happened under this new rule.

I agree it is shithouse rule change allowing grandparent qualification and is going to allow England to recruit capped All Blacks Wallabies and Springboks into positions they are weak mainly their backline.


I doubt England would cap an All Black that was an All Black with >10caps or >25 years old which means he'd have to have been selected for NZ when he was young and then either dropped when also young (or moved overseas). Brad Shields was eligible under the old rules and his selection for England was as unpopular with England fans as I'm sure it was with Kiwi fans. It was Eddie Jones trolling NZ really and most of us don't like him either.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by eldanielfire »

UncleFB wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:37 pm
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:04 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:56 pm I don't see the fuss of players representing two countries. Its all part of the fun. Lighten up guys.
I just think it makes things look a bit cheap and mickey mouse if a guy who's played for a country for 7 years and 50+ caps turns out for another team. The likes of Piutau, Laumape, Fifita etc - no issue. Julian Savea? That'd be stupid.
To be honest I really don't think it matters. You could have a player battling away for 7 years trying to get in the ABs only sporadically making it and then switching to the PIs when he's done. They're both two guys committed to NZ rugby for 7 years but only one of them is good enough to play lots of tests. Why should the lots of tests guy be considered any less a PI then the other guy?

I'd have more issues with the Piutau situation if I'm honest. Uses the prestige of the AB jersey to leave NZ rugby early for a big payday overseas.
Really, given he's spoken many times that he did it as he was the breadwinner to support his large and very poor family and he could make their lives better, I respect him even more for it. He's literally made the lives of his extended family better for doing it. I'm all for national loyalty, but family first.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by eldanielfire »

camroc1 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:39 am The problem will be if Tonga, Samoa and Fiji just become a series of ex ABs, sort of AB "lite" teams, that have a huge support in Auckland, but little connection to actual rugby in the islands.

But, as you say, give it chance and revisit in a few years if there are problems.
Don't most Tongan's and Samoans come from New Zealand anyway?
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Hoof wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:02 am
tubbyj wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:19 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:04 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:56 pm I don't see the fuss of players representing two countries. Its all part of the fun. Lighten up guys.
I just think it makes things look a bit cheap and mickey mouse if a guy who's played for a country for 7 years and 50+ caps turns out for another team. The likes of Piutau, Laumape, Fifita etc - no issue. Julian Savea? That'd be stupid.
The like of Carl Hayman is likely to have had a English Grandparent. So when he was brought up by Newcastle and paid to turn his back on the All Blacks he could have also been courted by the English Rugby Union and turned out for England despite having 46 appearances for New Zealand. Nick Evans is another who the Englsih would have loved to have as their 10 and would have likely happened under this new rule.

I agree it is shithouse rule change allowing grandparent qualification and is going to allow England to recruit capped All Blacks Wallabies and Springboks into positions they are weak mainly their backline.


I doubt England would cap an All Black that was an All Black with >10caps or >25 years old which means he'd have to have been selected for NZ when he was young and then either dropped when also young (or moved overseas). Brad Shields was eligible under the old rules and his selection for England was as unpopular with England fans as I'm sure it was with Kiwi fans. It was Eddie Jones trolling NZ really and most of us don't like him either.
England, NZ, Aus, SA or anyone else would select your grandma if they thought it would improve the team.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by eldanielfire »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 am
paddyor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
Not saying it's gonna turn them into world champs or make a major difference, but it expands the pool of eligible players for them and into a higher tier of player at that. The English national team has benefited from being able to cap players through residency and ancestry and this will be a further benefit to them.
Which they can do anyway.

Seems a lot of panic about a rule change that will barely affect England but benefit the P.I. a lot.
Jay Cee Gee
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

eldanielfire wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:15 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 am
paddyor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
Not saying it's gonna turn them into world champs or make a major difference, but it expands the pool of eligible players for them and into a higher tier of player at that. The English national team has benefited from being able to cap players through residency and ancestry and this will be a further benefit to them.
Which they can do anyway.

Seems a lot of panic about a rule change that will barely affect England but benefit the P.I. a lot.
They can't do it with capped players.

I think you've misunderstood, I'm not panicking, nor do I think the policy is a bad idea (I don't think a tier 1 restriction would be workable). I don't think it will make a major difference to intl rugby and the major benefit will be to 2nd tier nations, the PI teams obviously and others less so. But there is also the chance it will benefit - to a lesser degree - some of the tier 1 nations and it's unlikely to be NZ or Aus due to their policy of not selecting overseas players combined with their domestic leagues not being lucrative enough to sustain a 3 year stand down.

The home nations don't have the same restrictions and also pay their test players more. They're likely to benefit to a lesser degree.
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Ellafan
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ellafan »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:36 am
Ellafan wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:12 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:39 am Also, if WR policy were to refuse all tier 1 to tier 1 transfers without actually having any written regulations limiting such transfers, that'd be a clear cut case of fettering their discretion and leave them open to legal challenge.
While I agree that it ought to be transparent, at the end of the day the committee is WR's delegate, and WR can't fetter it's own discretion. The national Unions ( and the *Welsh one) all voted on this, and whatever criteria the Unions collectively think should be applied at the opaque 'application' stage will be applied. There is always the possibility that if the player's original union confers its blessing on the move, that will generate an approval.

Things might get interesting if someone breaks ranks, though.
If they're requiring people to stand down for 3 years and then refusing an application based on a criteria that they hadn't disclosed or included in the regs, they'd be liable to be sued out the arsehole.
Yeah/nah/maybe. It's a private club, extending a privilege*, at its discretion. And the rationale, to help the PI sides especially at RWC time, has been mentioned to a few journos in the last few days.

[*Don't forget, they got a free choice to start with, and now they want a re-do.]
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by TranceNRG »

Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:47 am Anyway, potential Tongan team for rwc 2023

15. Piatau
14. Veainu
13. Fekitoa
12. Pita Akhi
11. Israel Folu
10. Sonatane Fosita (best I could think of - he's better than Morath)
9. Augustine Pulu
8. Lopeti Timani
7. Sione Vailunu
6. Vaea Fifita
5. Sitakeli Timani
4. Coleman
3. Tamifuna
2. ???
1. Kepu
Surely they can find a better no 8 than Lopeti Timani? He's rubbish. Vunipola? That would be a formidable pack.
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Ted.
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ted. »

Jensrsa wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:16 am
Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:04 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:01 am
Jensrsa wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:37 pm
Ellafan wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:30 pm

I'm not sure there will be many ex-wallabies - we pick guys playing in Australia because we need them in the team, not to cap them off the bench and then warehouse them.
If you guys hadn't pulled Skelton back in this year he would have been available to Samoa

And Quade Cooper for NZ :P
Skelton would certainly be eligible for NZ, but I am not sure her would be eligible for Samoa. Perhaps someone can clear that one up?
His brother played u20s for Samoa, so imagine he must also be eligible.
He played for Samoa U20 as well
:thumbup:
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by msp. »

eldanielfire wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:15 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:59 am
paddyor wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:57 am Oh no, the English are gonna sign a load of Brad Shields type players, the PTA has disbanded, run for your lives!
Not saying it's gonna turn them into world champs or make a major difference, but it expands the pool of eligible players for them and into a higher tier of player at that. The English national team has benefited from being able to cap players through residency and ancestry and this will be a further benefit to them.
Which they can do anyway.

Seems a lot of panic about a rule change that will barely affect England but benefit the P.I. a lot.
Not panicking, it just feels like one of those rules brought it for one reason but ends up having unexpected consequences. Time will tell,.
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Zakar
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Zakar »

TranceNRG wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:56 am
Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:47 am Anyway, potential Tongan team for rwc 2023

15. Piatau
14. Veainu
13. Fekitoa
12. Pita Akhi
11. Israel Folu
10. Sonatane Fosita (best I could think of - he's better than Morath)
9. Augustine Pulu
8. Lopeti Timani
7. Sione Vailunu
6. Vaea Fifita
5. Sitakeli Timani
4. Coleman
3. Tamifuna
2. ???
1. Kepu
Surely they can find a better no 8 than Lopeti Timani? He's rubbish. Vunipola? That would be a formidable pack.
Rubbish is harsh. He's adequate.

Not sure if the vunipola bros will have 'stood down' long enough by rwc 2023
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Rugby2023 »

themaddog wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:42 pm
Nolanator wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:51 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:40 pm
Nolanator wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:22 pm So, Piatau against Ireland for Tonga in RWC23?
Yep, and potentially players like Kurindrani for Fiji, Moala for Tonga, Sopoaga for Samoa, Nakaitaci for Fiji, Laumape for Tonga, Naivalu for Fiji, Latu for Tonga, Akhi for Tonga, Hughes for Fiji, Luatua for Samoa etc.
Jordi Murphy for Spain!
Billy Burns for England
Not eligible for years, but Freddie Burns is now currently eligible for Ireland?
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Ellafan
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Ellafan »

Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:26 pm
TranceNRG wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:56 am
Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:47 am Anyway, potential Tongan team for rwc 2023

15. Piatau
14. Veainu
13. Fekitoa
12. Pita Akhi
11. Israel Folu
10. Sonatane Fosita (best I could think of - he's better than Morath)
9. Augustine Pulu
8. Lopeti Timani
7. Sione Vailunu
6. Vaea Fifita
5. Sitakeli Timani
4. Coleman
3. Tamifuna
2. ???
1. Kepu
Surely they can find a better no 8 than Lopeti Timani? He's rubbish. Vunipola? That would be a formidable pack.
Rubbish is harsh. He's adequate.

Not sure if the vunipola bros will have 'stood down' long enough by rwc 2023
I'm hoping WR refuses "realignment" approval to Folau, on the discretionary basis that approving the application of a homophobic religious nutter to play for a different team, after being sacked by his fist one, for being, inter-alia, a homophobic religious nutter, is not the policy of WR collectively, nor the intent for which this regulation change was introduced.
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camroc1
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by camroc1 »

Rugby2023 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:38 pm
themaddog wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:42 pm
Nolanator wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:51 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:40 pm
Nolanator wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:22 pm So, Piatau against Ireland for Tonga in RWC23?
Yep, and potentially players like Kurindrani for Fiji, Moala for Tonga, Sopoaga for Samoa, Nakaitaci for Fiji, Laumape for Tonga, Naivalu for Fiji, Latu for Tonga, Akhi for Tonga, Hughes for Fiji, Luatua for Samoa etc.
Jordi Murphy for Spain!
Billy Burns for England
Not eligible for years, but Freddie Burns is now currently eligible for Ireland?
Having tested the sampler you sent over, I don't think we're interested in any more of that line.
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earl the beaver
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by earl the beaver »

Among the home nations there's a few players who become elligible for other nations

George McGuigan - Newcastle Hooker who played Ireland age grade rugby but accepted a call up to England Saxons back in 2015 - Not likely to be required by Ireland given Kelleher and Sheahan are much younger and Herring is still going well.

Freddie Burns like you said - but again unlikely to be wanted by Ireland.

Danny Cipriani - Is he eligible to Italy through grandparents, I'm not sure how far back the Italian connection is?

Kieran Treadwell - Now eligible for England, unlikely to be wanted by England

Jordi Murphy - Now eligible for Spain

Mike Haley - Will be eligible for England next year

Kieran Marmion - Will be eligible for England and Wales in 2023

Sammy Arnold - Now eligible for England

etc.
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Zakar
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Re: International Eligibility Switches Approved

Post by Zakar »

Dani Cipriani also available for Jamaica.
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