It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Tehui
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Tehui »

Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
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UncleFB
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by UncleFB »

RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:34 am
mabunch78 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
NZ is massively protectionist - not a true free-market economy. Big government subsidies for their industry 'winners'. But their tabloids are always ready to condemn a similar approach from larger trading partners... :roll:
The place is basically an experiment on how to govern a police state and brainwash a countries citizens. Beautiful place but a political fuckup.
Sheesh you're full of shit mate. Every state in Oz had a form of lockdown when Covid first took off, and in NSW we've been under similar to L2 in NZ since that lockdown ended (the fact that it is haphazardly implemented by the authorities is another thing).

How long have you lived in NZ to know how suffocating the govts are? TBH, your idiotic comments on how NZers feel suggest you've never even met a NZer.

As someone who lives in Oz (6 years), and has been working on and off in Oz for 15 years, I know which of the two countries is regulated up the wahoo and it's not NZ.
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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
It hardly matters what there plan was, arguable as that is, the end results is what they are measuring themselves by and what other's should. So Enz's comment is perfectly reasonable on that basis.

f**king filthy stooly.
The end results are as much or more down to luck on uncontrollable variables then a countries actual actions.

Factors like global and local Geography, time of when the infection entered the country, access to PPE and testing early on after it has spread, impact on health services, how isolated or connected a country is, levels of tourism or travel in those countries and population and culture factors among other factors. Enz is projecting like NZs results did something wonderfully successful about COVID-19, when in fact it did little different to most western countries and was in fact slower to respond to the danger, but had many of the uncontrollable variables work in it's favour as well as knowledge of what everyone else was doing before COVID-19 became a big threat. That is very relevant to contextualizing what the results actually are.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:42 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
It hardly matters what there plan was, arguable as that is, the end results is what they are measuring themselves by and what other's should. So Enz's comment is perfectly reasonable on that basis.

f**king filthy stooly.
The end results are as much or more down to luck on uncontrollable variables then a countries actual actions.

Factors like global and local Geography, time of when the infection entered the country, access to PPE and testing early on after it has spread, impact on health services, how isolated or connected a country is, levels of tourism or travel in those countries and population and culture factors among other factors. Enz is projecting like NZs results did something wonderfully successful about COVID-19, when in fact it did little different to most western countries and was in fact slower to respond to the danger, but had many of the uncontrollable variables work in it's favour as well as knowledge of what everyone else was doing before COVID-19 became a big threat. That is very relevant to contextualizing what the results actually are.
I don't think that is true, NZ lockdowned about 20 days after the first case which is quicker than a lot of western nations (and probably on far fewer cases).
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:42 am
Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
It hardly matters what there plan was, arguable as that is, the end results is what they are measuring themselves by and what other's should. So Enz's comment is perfectly reasonable on that basis.

f**king filthy stooly.
The end results are as much or more down to luck on uncontrollable variables then a countries actual actions.

Factors like global and local Geography, time of when the infection entered the country, access to PPE and testing early on after it has spread, impact on health services, how isolated or connected a country is, levels of tourism or travel in those countries and population and culture factors among other factors. Enz is projecting like NZs results did something wonderfully successful about COVID-19, when in fact it did little different to most western countries and was in fact slower to respond to the danger, but had many of the uncontrollable variables work in it's favour as well as knowledge of what everyone else was doing before COVID-19 became a big threat. That is very relevant to contextualizing what the results actually are.
This is true. A lot of the elderly in nursing homes were infected by non-symptomatic nurses and carers, and it's a similar story elsewhere. Nevertheless, Tegnell and others have been totally forward about saying the amount of nursing home deaths that occurred are unacceptable. Since the start of the outbreak they have also been recommending that elderly and at-risk self-isolate. My girlfriend and her brother take turns in doing the grocery shopping for their parents. Not everyone follows the official advice of course, because they're not forced to do so.

So categorically, the plan was NOT, "kill off the elderly". Regardless of the results, it's a false statement to claim that was the intent. Although I'm sure going into this, whoever in charge of the response by whatever country would have had to face some tough questions behind closed doors. What is an acceptable death rate in the elderly? It's an unpalatable question, but the reality is that it is a global pandemic, people will die and "zero" is a delusional and unrealistic answer. Law-makers I'm sure tackle similar - and even more unpalatable questions - constantly. What is an acceptable death rate in young people when coming up with the laws for driving licences? Maybe we should make the driving age thirty and the speed-limit 10km/ph until you're 40? I'm sure that would have a drastic positive effect statistically.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:59 am
I don't think that is true, NZ lockdowned about 20 days after the first case which is quicker than a lot of western nations (and probably on far fewer cases).
Zealand locked down 10th April, pretty much all Europe's lockdowns where in march. It was much later when more was known about the Coronavirus. The relative time isn't relevant for a comparison. I wouldn't say Italy's numbers were due to it's timing of its' lockdown as opposed to being the first major western country that experienced Coronavirus explosion before lots was understood about to combat it. Especially with test and trace methods being unavailable to Italy and most of Europe.

As I said, it's easy for New Zealand to see what every one else did being roughly a month behind and take the measures that looked like they were working everywhere else with more time to prepare. But like every other nation, when lockdown measures where removed as numbers looked good, New Zealand saw another spike in numbers like everywhere else that lockdowned.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:25 am
New Zealand locked down 10th April,
March 26.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Didn't they piss about with quarantining longer?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

New Zealand closed their borders early enough which was probably the most important measure. It hadn't taken hold so the lockdown worked the way it was hoped it would elsewhere.

Ireland and NZ are close enough in terms of timeline between first confirmed case and lockdown but we had far more seeds.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:25 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:59 am
I don't think that is true, NZ lockdowned about 20 days after the first case which is quicker than a lot of western nations (and probably on far fewer cases).
Zealand locked down 10th April, pretty much all Europe's lockdowns where in march. It was much later when more was known about the Coronavirus. The relative time isn't relevant for a comparison. I wouldn't say Italy's numbers were due to it's timing of its' lockdown as opposed to being the first major western country that experienced Coronavirus explosion before lots was understood about to combat it. Especially with test and trace methods being unavailable to Italy and most of Europe.

As I said, it's easy for New Zealand to see what every one else did being roughly a month behind and take the measures that looked like they were working everywhere else with more time to prepare. But like every other nation, when lockdown measures where removed as numbers looked good, New Zealand saw another spike in numbers like everywhere else that lockdowned.
No they didn't, they went to level 2 on March 21, then Level 3 two days later and then full on 25 March.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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I looked it up there and they didn't make people from NZ coming home quarantine until the 10th April so that's a problem there
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Before 10 April people returning had to self isolate at home for 14 days. The move in April had returnees being quarantined in hotels.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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EverReady wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:58 am I looked it up there and they didn't make people from NZ coming home quarantine until the 10th April so that's a problem there
Yeah, they had 14 day self quarantine until then which was an issue because people are idiots.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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I get ya
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Image
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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:47 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:25 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:59 am
I don't think that is true, NZ lockdowned about 20 days after the first case which is quicker than a lot of western nations (and probably on far fewer cases).
Zealand locked down 10th April, pretty much all Europe's lockdowns where in march. It was much later when more was known about the Coronavirus. The relative time isn't relevant for a comparison. I wouldn't say Italy's numbers were due to it's timing of its' lockdown as opposed to being the first major western country that experienced Coronavirus explosion before lots was understood about to combat it. Especially with test and trace methods being unavailable to Italy and most of Europe.

As I said, it's easy for New Zealand to see what every one else did being roughly a month behind and take the measures that looked like they were working everywhere else with more time to prepare. But like every other nation, when lockdown measures where removed as numbers looked good, New Zealand saw another spike in numbers like everywhere else that lockdowned.
No they didn't, they went to level 2 on March 21, then Level 3 two days later and then full on 25 March.
Level 2 is basically just social distancing not a lockdown, not the rather universal meaning where restrictions on movement at homes and work. Regardless by either definition Europe was mostly quite a bit ahead of New Zealand as 'level 2' social distancing type requirements were in place weeks ahead.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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A question i do have is why is Spain doing it so badly right now? Mog's graph looks like Spain will be the co-worst affected for both European peaks?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:28 pm Image
Cases in countries that have come out of lockdown were always expected to rise. It would be rather weird if they didn't. I would as always compare like with like and i think Norway a and Denmark have had about 4 or 5 deaths between them over the last month. it would take an unlikely and dramatic rise in that number with Sweden not doing so to balance the ledger
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:41 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:28 pm Image
Cases in countries that have come out of lockdown were always expected to rise. It would be rather weird if they didn't. I would as always compare like with like and i think Norway a and Denmark have had about 4 or 5 deaths between them over the last month. it would take an unlikely and dramatic rise in that number with Sweden not doing so to balance the ledger
Nobody is surprised that there are less active cases inside countries that are under lockdown. The argument was never the Sweden's approach would minimize infections. The Swedish assumption was that lockdowns are an unrealistic long term solution and they are just pushing the problem further off down the track, so let's get the big bump out of the way during the summer months. The above graph seems to suggest there may have been some truth in that. We'll see what happens when Sweden's neighbours come out of lockdown.

As I've said all along, its way too early to start casting down judgements on anyone or any nation. This winter could see a huge spike in cases. We won't really know for another few years. Whatever the future holds, at this moment in time it's just not honest to make the argument that the Swedish approach has been a dismal failure. Given the fullness of time maybe it will be, but all we do know for 100% sure right now is that we just don't know.

Regardless of how it turns out, it's pretty obvious that the scathing accusatory admonishments that have come from certain sectors of the foreign press have just been plain wrong and those people should be right now pulling their head down below their collar line. They don't know shit and there's some very wrong with them baying for a Swedish failure just because their country happened to choose a different route. It's not a competition.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Tehui wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:40 am Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
You don’t believe in here immunity?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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So many have trashed Sweden without knowing the facts, but now they can’t walk back the condemnation now, because it means everyone will see they didn’t know what the fark they were talking about. Look at the changing opinions on the main COVID thread - many posters have been furiously shouting out contradictory opinions for months. Many stand for nothing other than what they think their favourite ideology might propose. Trump-like.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:12 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:41 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:28 pm Image
Cases in countries that have come out of lockdown were always expected to rise. It would be rather weird if they didn't. I would as always compare like with like and i think Norway a and Denmark have had about 4 or 5 deaths between them over the last month. it would take an unlikely and dramatic rise in that number with Sweden not doing so to balance the ledger
Nobody is surprised that there are less active cases inside countries that are under lockdown. The argument was never the Sweden's approach would minimize infections. The Swedish assumption was that lockdowns are an unrealistic long term solution and they are just pushing the problem further off down the track, so let's get the big bump out of the way during the summer months. The above graph seems to suggest there may have been some truth in that. We'll see what happens when Sweden's neighbours come out of lockdown.

As I've said all along, its way too early to start casting down judgements on anyone or any nation. This winter could see a huge spike in cases. We won't really know for another few years. Whatever the future holds, at this moment in time it's just not honest to make the argument that the Swedish approach has been a dismal failure. Given the fullness of time maybe it will be, but all we do know for 100% sure right now is that we just don't know.

Regardless of how it turns out, it's pretty obvious that the scathing accusatory admonishments that have come from certain sectors of the foreign press have just been plain wrong and those people should be right now pulling their head down below their collar line. They don't know shit and there's some very wrong with them baying for a Swedish failure just because their country happened to choose a different route. It's not a competition.
I'm sure you know this already because you've been told before. Lockdowns were never meant to be a long term solution. they were designed to prevent health systems being overrun and give people a chance to develop therapeutic treatments and best practice. You are much more likely to survive covid-19 if you are hospitalised now than you would have been if you were hospitalised earlier on in the year when Sweden were throwing people under the bus. It's got absolutely nothing to do with kicking the problem down the road.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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I think most of Europe has just kicked the can down the road. There’s no plan. And because they’ve gone from harsh lockdown to “laissez faire”, summer, they will struggle to re-assert the restrictions.

Sweden’s strategy was designed by experts. They made tactical mistakes, but the strategy is looking sound. People should acknowledge this as it might play a key role in their strategy.... if they get around to make one.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:35 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:12 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:41 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:28 pm Image
Cases in countries that have come out of lockdown were always expected to rise. It would be rather weird if they didn't. I would as always compare like with like and i think Norway a and Denmark have had about 4 or 5 deaths between them over the last month. it would take an unlikely and dramatic rise in that number with Sweden not doing so to balance the ledger
Nobody is surprised that there are less active cases inside countries that are under lockdown. The argument was never the Sweden's approach would minimize infections. The Swedish assumption was that lockdowns are an unrealistic long term solution and they are just pushing the problem further off down the track, so let's get the big bump out of the way during the summer months. The above graph seems to suggest there may have been some truth in that. We'll see what happens when Sweden's neighbours come out of lockdown.

As I've said all along, its way too early to start casting down judgements on anyone or any nation. This winter could see a huge spike in cases. We won't really know for another few years. Whatever the future holds, at this moment in time it's just not honest to make the argument that the Swedish approach has been a dismal failure. Given the fullness of time maybe it will be, but all we do know for 100% sure right now is that we just don't know.

Regardless of how it turns out, it's pretty obvious that the scathing accusatory admonishments that have come from certain sectors of the foreign press have just been plain wrong and those people should be right now pulling their head down below their collar line. They don't know shit and there's some very wrong with them baying for a Swedish failure just because their country happened to choose a different route. It's not a competition.
I'm sure you know this already because you've been told before. Lockdowns were never meant to be a long term solution? they were designed to prevent health systems being overrun and give people a chance to develop therapeutic treatments and best practice. You are much more likely to survive covid-19 if you are hospitalised now than you would have been if you were hospitalised earlier on in the year when Sweden were throwing people under the bus. It's got absolutely nothing to do with kicking the problem down the road.
:roll: Can you at least concede, as I do, that it's too early to start making value judgements, we just don't know. Can we agree there is a possibility that Sweden actually hasn't done too badly after all but ultimately time will tell? Whatsmore that what's happened in Sweden should rightly have a few pundits wiping egg off their face?

Yes, duh, I was not under the impression that the rest of the planet was going into permanent, eternal lock-down. But as towny rightly says, what exactly is their plan again? Lockdown until a vaccine becomes available and is distrubuted to billions of people worldwide who are all happy to take it? That seems like a distant future even if one was approved tomorrow. So what until then? Is there a plan? Because lockdown and then gradually ease out of it when the numbers drop low enough seems, as the Swedish experts seemingly predicted, not to work very well.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:17 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:35 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:12 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:41 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:28 pm Image
Cases in countries that have come out of lockdown were always expected to rise. It would be rather weird if they didn't. I would as always compare like with like and i think Norway a and Denmark have had about 4 or 5 deaths between them over the last month. it would take an unlikely and dramatic rise in that number with Sweden not doing so to balance the ledger
Nobody is surprised that there are less active cases inside countries that are under lockdown. The argument was never the Sweden's approach would minimize infections. The Swedish assumption was that lockdowns are an unrealistic long term solution and they are just pushing the problem further off down the track, so let's get the big bump out of the way during the summer months. The above graph seems to suggest there may have been some truth in that. We'll see what happens when Sweden's neighbours come out of lockdown.

As I've said all along, its way too early to start casting down judgements on anyone or any nation. This winter could see a huge spike in cases. We won't really know for another few years. Whatever the future holds, at this moment in time it's just not honest to make the argument that the Swedish approach has been a dismal failure. Given the fullness of time maybe it will be, but all we do know for 100% sure right now is that we just don't know.

Regardless of how it turns out, it's pretty obvious that the scathing accusatory admonishments that have come from certain sectors of the foreign press have just been plain wrong and those people should be right now pulling their head down below their collar line. They don't know shit and there's some very wrong with them baying for a Swedish failure just because their country happened to choose a different route. It's not a competition.
I'm sure you know this already because you've been told before. Lockdowns were never meant to be a long term solution? they were designed to prevent health systems being overrun and give people a chance to develop therapeutic treatments and best practice. You are much more likely to survive covid-19 if you are hospitalised now than you would have been if you were hospitalised earlier on in the year when Sweden were throwing people under the bus. It's got absolutely nothing to do with kicking the problem down the road.
:roll: Can you at least concede, as I do, that it's too early to start making value judgements, we just don't know. Can we agree there is a possibility that Sweden actually hasn't done too badly after all but ultimately time will tell? Whatsmore that what's happened in Sweden should rightly have a few pundits wiping egg off their face?

Yes, duh, I was not under the impression that the rest of the planet was going into permanent, eternal lock-down. But as towny rightly says, what exactly is their plan again? Lockdown until a vaccine becomes available and is distrubuted to billions of people worldwide who are all happy to take it? That seems like a distant future even if one was approved tomorrow. So what until then? Is there a plan? Because lockdown and then gradually ease out of it when the numbers drop low enough seems, as the Swedish experts seemingly predicted, not to work very well.
Sweden doing the opposite of everyone on a punt could pay off. Just as having a bet on an outsider in a horse race could pay off. At least the bet is normally with your own money and not someone elses life. What do you mean as Towny rightly says. Don't be a moron. Most people are already out of lockdown you numpty so how can the plan be to stay in lockdown until a vaccine becomes available
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Moron? Why are you so invested in this that you're getting angry? You didn't personally devise any of it so let down your guard.

What was there plan then? A rollercoaster of coming in and out of lockdown? Because from the look of it so far, thats whats happening. Except for Sweden od course.

I take it from your response that you're not willing to accept the compromise I suggested.
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Tehui
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Tehui »

towny wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:30 pm
Tehui wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:40 am Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
You don’t believe in here immunity?
Nope. Not with something as dangerous as COVID-19.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:36 pm
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:47 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:25 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:59 am
I don't think that is true, NZ lockdowned about 20 days after the first case which is quicker than a lot of western nations (and probably on far fewer cases).
Zealand locked down 10th April, pretty much all Europe's lockdowns where in march. It was much later when more was known about the Coronavirus. The relative time isn't relevant for a comparison. I wouldn't say Italy's numbers were due to it's timing of its' lockdown as opposed to being the first major western country that experienced Coronavirus explosion before lots was understood about to combat it. Especially with test and trace methods being unavailable to Italy and most of Europe.

As I said, it's easy for New Zealand to see what every one else did being roughly a month behind and take the measures that looked like they were working everywhere else with more time to prepare. But like every other nation, when lockdown measures where removed as numbers looked good, New Zealand saw another spike in numbers like everywhere else that lockdowned.
No they didn't, they went to level 2 on March 21, then Level 3 two days later and then full on 25 March.
Level 2 is basically just social distancing not a lockdown, not the rather universal meaning where restrictions on movement at homes and work. Regardless by either definition Europe was mostly quite a bit ahead of New Zealand as 'level 2' social distancing type requirements were in place weeks ahead.
Sheesh dude, just own the fact you muddled up your dates. NZ lockdowned before some Western nations and less than a week after some others so they weren't slower to respond to the danger relative to most western countries,
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towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Tehui wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:10 am
towny wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:30 pm
Tehui wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:40 am Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
You don’t believe in here immunity?
Nope. Not with something as dangerous as COVID-19.
I was going to ridicule but realised it was be on a technicality, which would have been an empty victory.

You actually do believe in herd immunity - it’s what makes vaccination programs effective. What I think you meant was you don’t want to depend on a ‘natural’ herd immunity for a deadly virus like Covid-19, which I would agree with, especially in New Zealand’s case.

NZ has a chance to eradicate Covid - you’d be crazy to do anything but get rid of it. Australia too!
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Tehui
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Tehui »

towny wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:54 am
Tehui wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:10 am
towny wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:30 pm
Tehui wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:40 am Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
You don’t believe in here immunity?
Nope. Not with something as dangerous as COVID-19.
I was going to ridicule but realised it was be on a technicality, which would have been an empty victory.

You actually do believe in herd immunity - it’s what makes vaccination programs effective. What I think you meant was you don’t want to depend on a ‘natural’ herd immunity for a deadly virus like Covid-19, which I would agree with, especially in New Zealand’s case.

NZ has a chance to eradicate Covid - you’d be crazy to do anything but get rid of it. Australia too!
Yep, agree with what you said. On another note, I'm so glad you're not like the many other posters on PR, who debate semantics until they're red in the face and spontaneously combust. Arrgh.

Random question - what's your current skill level with the Swedish language? The reason I ask is that I've got an interest in languages, and I remember you talking about a personal connection with Sweden.
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jambanja
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by jambanja »

towny wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:54 am
Tehui wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:10 am
towny wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:30 pm
Tehui wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:40 am Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
You don’t believe in here immunity?
Nope. Not with something as dangerous as COVID-19.
I was going to ridicule but realised it was be on a technicality, which would have been an empty victory.

You actually do believe in herd immunity - it’s what makes vaccination programs effective. What I think you meant was you don’t want to depend on a ‘natural’ herd immunity for a deadly virus like Covid-19, which I would agree with, especially in New Zealand’s case.

NZ has a chance to eradicate Covid - you’d be crazy to do anything but get rid of it. Australia too!
Whilst I agree, there is one obvious weakness with that strategy, we then become completely dependant on a vaccine being developed and that raises the obvious questions of how long and at what cost, we cannot keep our borders closed indefinitely, well we could but the cost would be heavy, it's a bit like a deadly game of chicken and I would hate to have to be the one to make the choices that will inevitably need to be made if a vaccine is more than a couple of years away
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towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Why can’t you keep your borders closed for 2 years? And, if Australia can get clean, why can’t you institute a ‘union or clean’ and open up to them?

What’s the alternative? I live in Sweden and it’s not quite business as usual. There’s no foreign tourism. What do you think opening up will be like? Australians like to travel and if NZ let’s them in they’ll pack your country. Maybe I’m not selling this too well.....

Tell you what, answer this question in November when Covid-19 is ripping through Europe. You’ll be summer and cruising by then. Tell me then that you need to open up.
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towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Tehui wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:49 am
towny wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:54 am
Tehui wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:10 am
towny wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:30 pm
Tehui wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:40 am Boris Johnson used to believe in herd immunity. He just changed his mind for some reason.
You don’t believe in here immunity?
Nope. Not with something as dangerous as COVID-19.
I was going to ridicule but realised it was be on a technicality, which would have been an empty victory.

You actually do believe in herd immunity - it’s what makes vaccination programs effective. What I think you meant was you don’t want to depend on a ‘natural’ herd immunity for a deadly virus like Covid-19, which I would agree with, especially in New Zealand’s case.

NZ has a chance to eradicate Covid - you’d be crazy to do anything but get rid of it. Australia too!
Yep, agree with what you said. On another note, I'm so glad you're not like the many other posters on PR, who debate semantics until they're red in the face and spontaneously combust. Arrgh.

Random question - what's your current skill level with the Swedish language? The reason I ask is that I've got an interest in languages, and I remember you talking about a personal connection with Sweden.
I have no farkin idea what my kids are saying. My wife speaks to the kids a lot in English so they keep developing. I can read it a bit and can say basic stuff, but can’t converse. I can understand gist of others’ conversations if that makes sense.

Google translate has a camera function - I subtlety pull that out to see what a sign says. I get free lessons at work, but I’m super busy with my online posting so don’t make the most of it.

MOG speaks it pretty well I think.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:17 pm Moron? Why are you so invested in this that you're getting angry? You didn't personally devise any of it so let down your guard.

What was there plan then? A rollercoaster of coming in and out of lockdown? Because from the look of it so far, thats whats happening. Except for Sweden od course.

I take it from your response that you're not willing to accept the compromise I suggested.
Mog wrote:The above graph seems to suggest there may have been some truth in that. We'll see what happens when Sweden's neighbours come out of lockdown.
Mog the point is their neighbours came out of lockdown in May.
Mog wrote:what exactly is their plan again? Lockdown until a vaccine becomes available and is distrubuted to billions of people worldwide
They came out of lockdown in May. Yes they have more cases than Sweden over the last 14 days but Sweden still has more than twice as many deaths over that period. Thankfully it's not many at all.



I'm not angry and I should have realised that even though you are a grown man and you live in Sweden you might have so little interest in this global pandemic that you'd have no idea your near neighbours had been out of lockdown for months. My bad
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:56 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:17 pm Moron? Why are you so invested in this that you're getting angry? You didn't personally devise any of it so let down your guard.

What was there plan then? A rollercoaster of coming in and out of lockdown? Because from the look of it so far, thats whats happening. Except for Sweden od course.

I take it from your response that you're not willing to accept the compromise I suggested.
Mog wrote:The above graph seems to suggest there may have been some truth in that. We'll see what happens when Sweden's neighbours come out of lockdown.
Mog the point is their neighbours came out of lockdown in May.
Mog wrote:what exactly is their plan again? Lockdown until a vaccine becomes available and is distrubuted to billions of people worldwide
They came out of lockdown in May. Yes they have more cases than Sweden over the last 14 days but Sweden still has more than twice as many deaths over that period. Thankfully it's not many at all.



I'm not angry and I should have realised that even though you are a grown man and you live in Sweden you might have so little interest in this situation that you'd have no idea your near neighbours had been out of lockdown for months. My bad
FFS. Can't you just admit the blatantly obvious? Look at the graph for Sweden. Look at the graph for the rest the EU. Can we at least concede that you don't know if Sweden made a big mistake or not? I mean, actual real medical and statistics experts are admitting that. But you're too clever?

And you don't know shit about Sweden's neighbors barring what you found conclusion-shopping on Google 30 seconds before you posted so f-ck off.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:13 am
FFS. Can't you just admit the blatantly obvious? Look at the graph for Sweden. Look at the graph for the rest the EU. Can we at least concede that you don't know if Sweden made a big mistake or not? I mean, actual real medical and statistics experts are admitting that. But you're too clever?

And you don't know shit about Sweden's neighbors barring what you found conclusion-shopping on Google 30 seconds before you posted so f-ck off.
Coronavirus: why the Nordics are our best bet for comparing strategies

April 3rd

Daily updated graphs illustrating the rising COVID-19 death rates in different countries raise hopes that we can understand the impact of the virus and work out how to stop it from spreading further. But when comparing countries as different as South Korea, China, Italy and the UK, we may find the impression of how different interventions work is obscured by many other factors.

These countries differ in many important ways, including demographics, civil disobedience, population density, patterns of social interactions, air quality and genetics. Italy, for example, has regions with older populations than many other countries. And European societies are unlikely to ever accept the draconian interventions used in China and South Korea.

From a scientific perspective, and in the absence of better models, the Nordic countries of Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland – which are culturally, economically, politically and geographically similar – may, serendipitously, represent a powerful intervention trial.

Currently, 15 million people here have been assigned to a lockdown, while a further 10 million have been asked to simply act responsibly. While it is too early to have definite answers about what works best, interesting insights can already be gleaned.

The Swedish approach to COVID-19 could not be more different from its neighbours, placing much of the responsibility for delaying the spread of the virus and protecting the vulnerable in the hands of the public. It’s now April and, albeit with some restrictions, Swedish bars, restaurants and schools remain open.

Under the blue skies and blazing sun Sweden has enjoyed lately, people have flocked to parks and beaches, bars and cafes. Nevertheless, Sweden has a high number of people living in single households, and citizens are generally respectful of public health advice and guidelines.

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus ... ies-135344
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Okay, so I take it your answer is, "no, I'm right and refuse to consider otherwise".

F-cking dumbarse.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:28 am Okay, so I take it your answer is, "no, I'm right and refuse to consider otherwise".

F-cking dumbarse.
Yes you are
A comparison of apples and oranges occurs when two items or groups of items are compared that cannot be practically compared.

The idiom, comparing apples and oranges, refers to the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges. The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an apple is faulted for not being a good orange.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_an ... %20oranges.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:33 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:28 am Okay, so I take it your answer is, "no, I'm right and refuse to consider otherwise".

F-cking dumbarse.
Yes you are
A comparison of apples and oranges occurs when two items or groups of items are compared that cannot be practically compared.

The idiom, comparing apples and oranges, refers to the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges. The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an apple is faulted for not being a good orange.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_an ... %20oranges.
Is that like you vs. someone with humility?

Be more like this fellow and less like typical-you:
Fick Sverige rätt? Translation: did Sweden get it right?

Is it time for the Sweden haters to admit maybe, just maybe, the Swedes got it right?

To be sure, your writer is hardly immune from having to eat humble pie, having vociferously pushed a hard lockdown (albeit over a far shorter period than Victoria’s six-month incarceration) only to realise the data now tells us something very different.

Sweden’s chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell advocated a “light touch” approach, limiting gatherings to less than 50 people and encouraging social distancing, but eschewing mass lockdowns or business closures. Critics of Tegnell’s approach quickly point to Sweden’s relatively high level of deaths as all the evidence needed to suggest that the policy was wrong. And Sweden certainly did have a higher number of fatalities than many countries (currently 5821).

However, Sweden’s death rate is lower than other countries which forced harsh lockdowns, including the UK, Italy, Spain and Peru. Moreover, Sweden’s death rate was inflated by huge errors in its handling of outbreaks in (largely privately-run) aged care facilities (sound familiar?)
https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/08/31/di ... nse-right/
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Anonymous 1 wrote:
A comparison of apples and oranges occurs when two items or groups of items are compared that cannot be practically compared.

The idiom, comparing apples and oranges, refers to the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges. The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an apple is faulted for not being a good orange.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_an ... %20oranges.
Apples and oranges huh? It's almost exactly the same as the EU graph.

Image
Image

How about this ... how about showing a tiny little bit of humility, admitting that there's a possibility that Sweden actually didn't do all that badly, that you actually don't really have any clue what you're talking about, and even the actual real experts that do know what they're talking about won't actually know conclusively for a very long time to come? Sound good?
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