It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by eldanielfire »

UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:14 am
Sheesh dude, just own the fact you muddled up your dates. NZ lockdowned before some Western nations and less than a week after some others so they weren't slower to respond to the danger relative to most western countries,
I never claimed most western countries, I stated most of Europe.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:36 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:33 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:28 am Okay, so I take it your answer is, "no, I'm right and refuse to consider otherwise".

F-cking dumbarse.
Yes you are
A comparison of apples and oranges occurs when two items or groups of items are compared that cannot be practically compared.

The idiom, comparing apples and oranges, refers to the apparent differences between items which are popularly thought to be incomparable or incommensurable, such as apples and oranges. The idiom may also be used to indicate that a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an apple is faulted for not being a good orange.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_an ... %20oranges.
Is that like you vs. someone with humility?

Be more like this fellow and less like typical-you:
Fick Sverige rätt? Translation: did Sweden get it right?

Is it time for the Sweden haters to admit maybe, just maybe, the Swedes got it right?

To be sure, your writer is hardly immune from having to eat humble pie, having vociferously pushed a hard lockdown (albeit over a far shorter period than Victoria’s six-month incarceration) only to realise the data now tells us something very different.

Sweden’s chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell advocated a “light touch” approach, limiting gatherings to less than 50 people and encouraging social distancing, but eschewing mass lockdowns or business closures. Critics of Tegnell’s approach quickly point to Sweden’s relatively high level of deaths as all the evidence needed to suggest that the policy was wrong. And Sweden certainly did have a higher number of fatalities than many countries (currently 5821).

However, Sweden’s death rate is lower than other countries which forced harsh lockdowns, including the UK, Italy, Spain and Peru. Moreover, Sweden’s death rate was inflated by huge errors in its handling of outbreaks in (largely privately-run) aged care facilities (sound familiar?)
https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/08/31/di ... nse-right/
Continue to compare apples and oranges as it clearly makes you feel better. All I am saying is since the start of this I have been comparing apples with apples.

Denmark for example has had about 47 deaths in total since the start of June and about 9 deaths between August 10th and and Sept 10th. Sweden have had about 450 deaths since the start of June and about 55 between August 10th and and Sept 10th. So in the last 30 days that Sweden have reported deaths they have more than 5 times as many as Denmark. The same is true for Norway. Finland have reported 6 deaths in that time. So that is 9 times as many deaths in Sweden as Finland in those 30 days.

Lets congratulate Sweden because they are doing better than the UK, Italy, Spain and Peru
Last edited by Anonymous 1 on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

:lol: Geezus christ.

It's like a parody sketch of hubris.

You actually have no idea what you're talking about. Norway is a collection of farming villages separated by mountains compared to Sweden.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden. I'm asking if there is some small possibility they might not have done so badly after all? That perhaps it's too early to judge and we won't really know for quite a long time yet? But no, you have all the answers. You really should get a job advising the WHO.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Enzedder »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 am :lol: Geezus christ.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden.
Except in the OP
Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 am :lol: Geezus christ.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden.
Except in the OP
Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory

I think Sweden have called it too early. I think it will be at least another month before they are in any position to declare themselves victorious over the disease.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 am :lol: Geezus christ.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden.
Except in the OP
Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory
The conversation has moved on. I was asking him to concede that he doesn't really know yet, and to accept that maybe Sweden has not done so badly after-all. But he appears to have all the answers already.

FWIW, I was one of the first in this thread to call out that article as junk. But the reality is that when the corona-virus began, we were told that with Tegnell's approach we are "2 weeks away from becoming the next Italy" and various other things that turned out to be complete horseshit. At the same time it's also turned out true that the infection trend in Sweden is actually looking very promising compared to broader Europe.

As I keep saying, it's too early to tell what will happen, I'm sure the experts are still figuring it out. But it is obviously not black and white and many accusatory, condescending predictions regarding Sweden have been proven wrong.
Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by EverReady »

Well done Sweden. Got through it still full of cake and beer unlike those women in NZ. If there was a scale you would have Sweden at 100 and NZ at 0. We have been probably around 50 but if we open the pubs we will rocket up to 75/80 on the not giving a fück scale. That is the most manly of all the scales
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:38 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 am :lol: Geezus christ.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden.
Except in the OP
Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory
The conversation has moved on. I was asking him to concede that he doesn't really know yet, and to accept that maybe Sweden has not done so badly after-all. But he appears to have all the answers already.

FWIW, I was one of the first in this thread to call out that article as junk. But the reality is that when the corona-virus began, we were told that with Tegnell's approach we are "2 weeks away from becoming the next Italy" and various other things that turned out to be complete horseshit. At the same time it's also turned out true that the infection trend in Sweden is actually looking very promising compared to broader Europe.

As I keep saying, it's too early to tell what will happen, I'm sure the experts are still figuring it out. But it is obviously not black and white and many accusatory, condescending predictions regarding Sweden have been proven wrong.
96 000 deaths according to Imperial College.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Clogs wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:49 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:38 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 am :lol: Geezus christ.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden.
Except in the OP
Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory
The conversation has moved on. I was asking him to concede that he doesn't really know yet, and to accept that maybe Sweden has not done so badly after-all. But he appears to have all the answers already.

FWIW, I was one of the first in this thread to call out that article as junk. But the reality is that when the corona-virus began, we were told that with Tegnell's approach we are "2 weeks away from becoming the next Italy" and various other things that turned out to be complete horseshit. At the same time it's also turned out true that the infection trend in Sweden is actually looking very promising compared to broader Europe.

As I keep saying, it's too early to tell what will happen, I'm sure the experts are still figuring it out. But it is obviously not black and white and many accusatory, condescending predictions regarding Sweden have been proven wrong.
96 000 deaths according to Imperial College.
:?: ...is that in in Europe or...? Not sure what you're referring to there.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:54 am
Clogs wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:49 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:38 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 am :lol: Geezus christ.

And nobody is saying to "congratulate" Sweden.
Except in the OP
Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory
The conversation has moved on. I was asking him to concede that he doesn't really know yet, and to accept that maybe Sweden has not done so badly after-all. But he appears to have all the answers already.

FWIW, I was one of the first in this thread to call out that article as junk. But the reality is that when the corona-virus began, we were told that with Tegnell's approach we are "2 weeks away from becoming the next Italy" and various other things that turned out to be complete horseshit. At the same time it's also turned out true that the infection trend in Sweden is actually looking very promising compared to broader Europe.

As I keep saying, it's too early to tell what will happen, I'm sure the experts are still figuring it out. But it is obviously not black and white and many accusatory, condescending predictions regarding Sweden have been proven wrong.
96 000 deaths according to Imperial College.
:?: ...is that in in Europe or...? Not sure what you're referring to there.
Imperial College modelled Sweden's strategy and boldly declared they would have 96 000 death by May (or June or July).

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... 20062133v1
Last edited by Clogs on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Clogs wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:56 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:54 am
Clogs wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:49 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:38 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:28 am

Except in the OP

The conversation has moved on. I was asking him to concede that he doesn't really know yet, and to accept that maybe Sweden has not done so badly after-all. But he appears to have all the answers already.

FWIW, I was one of the first in this thread to call out that article as junk. But the reality is that when the corona-virus began, we were told that with Tegnell's approach we are "2 weeks away from becoming the next Italy" and various other things that turned out to be complete horseshit. At the same time it's also turned out true that the infection trend in Sweden is actually looking very promising compared to broader Europe.

As I keep saying, it's too early to tell what will happen, I'm sure the experts are still figuring it out. But it is obviously not black and white and many accusatory, condescending predictions regarding Sweden have been proven wrong.
96 000 deaths according to Imperial College.
:?: ...is that in in Europe or...? Not sure what you're referring to there.
Imperial College modelled Sweden's strategy and boldly declared they would have 96 000 death by May (or June or July).
Ah I see. Yeah well, I'm sure there's a few experts and non-experts (journos) wiping egg off their face. At least there should be.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:03 am
Clogs wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:56 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:54 am
Clogs wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:49 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:38 am
The conversation has moved on. I was asking him to concede that he doesn't really know yet, and to accept that maybe Sweden has not done so badly after-all. But he appears to have all the answers already.

FWIW, I was one of the first in this thread to call out that article as junk. But the reality is that when the corona-virus began, we were told that with Tegnell's approach we are "2 weeks away from becoming the next Italy" and various other things that turned out to be complete horseshit. At the same time it's also turned out true that the infection trend in Sweden is actually looking very promising compared to broader Europe.

As I keep saying, it's too early to tell what will happen, I'm sure the experts are still figuring it out. But it is obviously not black and white and many accusatory, condescending predictions regarding Sweden have been proven wrong.
96 000 deaths according to Imperial College.
:?: ...is that in in Europe or...? Not sure what you're referring to there.
Imperial College modelled Sweden's strategy and boldly declared they would have 96 000 death by May (or June or July).
Ah I see. Yeah well, I'm sure there's a few experts and non-experts (journos) wiping egg off their face. At least there should be.
I think there is still a long way to go with quit a bit more face egg for all sides of the argument before this thing has run its course.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
If Sweden have managed to get Covid under control then a sniffling cold will be welcome. I am a bit nervous for your neighbours. The shit show looks like it is about to kick off again. Denmark seems to be doing an Israel. First wave bad. Second wave worse.

Sadly this is from their chief epidemiologist:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22O15L
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Enzedder »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
Not sure if you caught an earlier post of mine but it bears out exactly what you have written

Last flu season we had 6500 hospitalisations - this one just 230 odd.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:36 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
Not sure if you caught an earlier post of mine but it bears out exactly what you have written

Last flu season we had 6500 hospitalisations - this one just 230 odd.
That's in New Zealand obviously? Very promising. My mum (who is a nurse) anecdotally related something similar in Australia.

The other positive thing to consider is that they're way better at treating it. I don't know what the mortality rate is currently, but I assume is hugely improved over what it was at the beginning (which was over-blown by some factors to begin with).

A further positive is that I've heard speculation that all this research into coronavirus vaccinations could lead to break throughs in vaccinations for the more common colds and flues.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:42 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:36 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
Not sure if you caught an earlier post of mine but it bears out exactly what you have written

Last flu season we had 6500 hospitalisations - this one just 230 odd.
That's in New Zealand obviously? Very promising. My mum (who is a nurse) anecdotally related something similar in Australia.

The other positive thing to consider is that they're way better at treating it. I don't know what the mortality rate is currently, but I assume is hugely improved over what it was at the beginning (which was over-blown by some factors to begin with).

A further positive is that I've heard speculation that all this research into coronavirus vaccinations could lead to break throughs in vaccinations for the more common colds and flues.
Better hygiene and greater uptake of the flu vaccine was always going to lead to fewer hospitalisations due to flu. I believe Enzedder said they ordered extra flu vaccine in NZ and still ran out such was the greater uptake.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Fat Old Git »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:58 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:42 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:36 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
Not sure if you caught an earlier post of mine but it bears out exactly what you have written

Last flu season we had 6500 hospitalisations - this one just 230 odd.
That's in New Zealand obviously? Very promising. My mum (who is a nurse) anecdotally related something similar in Australia.

The other positive thing to consider is that they're way better at treating it. I don't know what the mortality rate is currently, but I assume is hugely improved over what it was at the beginning (which was over-blown by some factors to begin with).

A further positive is that I've heard speculation that all this research into coronavirus vaccinations could lead to break throughs in vaccinations for the more common colds and flues.
Better hygiene and greater uptake of the flu vaccine was always going to lead to fewer hospitalisations due to flu. I believe Enzedder said they ordered extra flu vaccine in NZ and still ran out such was the greater uptake.
Yep, flu vaccine taken up earlier and in much greater numbers than usual. Far better hygiene, which includes hand sanitizer being used when going in and out of shops etc, more cleaners (my workplace has a day cleaner who spends all day doing a circuit cleaning all of the shared surfaces and contact points), And a culture shift in attitudes to coming to work when sick which is no longer being tolerated.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:44 am And a culture shift in attitudes to coming to work when sick which is no longer being tolerated.
That one is massive.

Oddly enough I posted something about that in the "pet peeves" or whatever thread and got shouted down by a gang of tough guys who thought going to work sick was a sign of how hard they work.

Even before COVID I regarded it as extremely selfish and disrespectful to either get on public transport when you're obviously sick, or come into the office. And if you think you're so important that you need to do it, "for the good of the company", then you probably have your head up your own arse too. Which come to think of it, is demonstrated by the first thing anyway.

A close second in the f-ckwit stakes is people who listen to music on their speaker phone on public transport.
Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Fat Old Git »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:48 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:44 am And a culture shift in attitudes to coming to work when sick which is no longer being tolerated.
That one is massive.

Oddly enough I posted something about that in the "pet peeves" or whatever thread and got shouted down by a gang of tough guys who thought going to work sick was a sign of how hard they work.

Even before COVID I regarded it as extremely selfish and disrespectful to either get on public transport when you're obviously sick, or come into the office. And if you think you're so important that you need to do it, "for the good of the company", then you probably have your head up your own arse too. Which come to think of it, is demonstrated by the first thing anyway.

A close second in the f-ckwit stakes is people who listen to music on their speaker phone on public transport.
It's long been a bug bear of mine. I can probably trace most of the colds of every have to sitting in a meeting room with some %$#@!!*er "soldiering on".
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:50 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:48 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:44 am And a culture shift in attitudes to coming to work when sick which is no longer being tolerated.
That one is massive.

Oddly enough I posted something about that in the "pet peeves" or whatever thread and got shouted down by a gang of tough guys who thought going to work sick was a sign of how hard they work.

Even before COVID I regarded it as extremely selfish and disrespectful to either get on public transport when you're obviously sick, or come into the office. And if you think you're so important that you need to do it, "for the good of the company", then you probably have your head up your own arse too. Which come to think of it, is demonstrated by the first thing anyway.

A close second in the f-ckwit stakes is people who listen to music on their speaker phone on public transport.
It's long been a bug bear of mine. I can probably trace most of the colds of every have to sitting in a meeting room with some %$#@!!*er "soldiering on".
:thumbup: Same.

If anything good comes out of COVID, hopefully it will be an end to that mentality.

Like you're so damn important that potentially (and probably) multiple other people have to spend weeks with a blocked nose, sore throat and lack of sleep just so you can go to the office. Just f-ck off c-nts.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Fat Old Git »

I live in hope.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:44 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:58 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:42 am
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:36 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am Yeah probably. If it's taught us one thing so far it's that nobody has a f-cking clue.

The coming winter could be a shit show. Here in Sweden basically everyone just lives with a cold for most of the winter, I hope it doesn't become a disaster zone. The optimistic prediction is that there will be far less colds and flues going around this winter thanks to increased awareness but time will tell.
Not sure if you caught an earlier post of mine but it bears out exactly what you have written

Last flu season we had 6500 hospitalisations - this one just 230 odd.
That's in New Zealand obviously? Very promising. My mum (who is a nurse) anecdotally related something similar in Australia.

The other positive thing to consider is that they're way better at treating it. I don't know what the mortality rate is currently, but I assume is hugely improved over what it was at the beginning (which was over-blown by some factors to begin with).

A further positive is that I've heard speculation that all this research into coronavirus vaccinations could lead to break throughs in vaccinations for the more common colds and flues.
Better hygiene and greater uptake of the flu vaccine was always going to lead to fewer hospitalisations due to flu. I believe Enzedder said they ordered extra flu vaccine in NZ and still ran out such was the greater uptake.
Yep, flu vaccine taken up earlier and in much greater numbers than usual. Far better hygiene, which includes hand sanitizer being used when going in and out of shops etc, more cleaners (my workplace has a day cleaner who spends all day doing a circuit cleaning all of the shared surfaces and contact points), And a culture shift in attitudes to coming to work when sick which is no longer being tolerated.
Not going to work when you had a cold would have been frowned upon by the management at my place. When you are working in an office with 40 people and the windows do not open there is always some bug or other going around the office. At least if and when we get back you will be expected to work from home.

That's another thing to think about. If the majority of us never get back to working in my office I wonder if I wouldn't actually look to change jobs to somewhere that I had to go into work.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

I think the real question is how much social and economic upheaval is justified? Car accidents, obesity and smoking kill way more people than coronavirus. Would it not be consistent to slash the speed limit, mandate diets for fatties and make cigarettes illegal?

I think the Swedes have a perspective that many others don't seem to share. I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, only time will tell, but I at least understand the reluctance to impose strict lockdowns on the entire population.

And so far they also seem to have predicted how it would pan out better than most. Whether that's unique to the Swedish population and unworkable in other places, I have no idea. Maybe.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Enzedder »

Lets see what Winter brings

(By the way, smoking, speeding, eating rubbish are personal choice - contracting a virus is not)
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm Lets see what Winter brings

(By the way, smoking, speeding, eating rubbish are personal choice - contracting a virus is not)
Yes, that is a good point.

I am nitpicking but being hit by a speeding driver is not a personal choice either. But still, I get what you are saying.

And yes, I am concerned about what Winter may bring. In the Southern Hemisphere you should be equally optimistic about summer.
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Fat Old Git
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Fat Old Git »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:06 pm
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm Lets see what Winter brings

(By the way, smoking, speeding, eating rubbish are personal choice - contracting a virus is not)
Yes, that is a good point.

I am nitpicking but being hit by a speeding driver is not a personal choice either. But still, I get what you are saying.

And yes, I am concerned about what Winter may bring. In the Southern Hemisphere you should be equally optimistic about summer.
Well if we're nitpicking, then we should point out that we have quite a lot of safety restrictions in place to try and prevent you being hit by a speeding driver.

But I also get what you are saying.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Santa »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:29 pm I think the real question is how much social and economic upheaval is justified? Car accidents, obesity and smoking kill way more people than coronavirus. Would it not be consistent to slash the speed limit, mandate diets for fatties and make cigarettes illegal?

I think the Swedes have a perspective that many others don't seem to share. I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, only time will tell, but I at least understand the reluctance to impose strict lockdowns on the entire population.

And so far they also seem to have predicted how it would pan out better than most. Whether that's unique to the Swedish population and unworkable in other places, I have no idea. Maybe.
It is entirely rational. There are plenty of significant and lifelong costs on the lockdown side that will echo down through a person's life. A year or two delaying study, a pay rise forgone whilst the cost of living rises, pension savings not made, an employment bottleneck as 2 or 3 years worth of students find themselves competing for a smaller number of jobs. All of these things have long lasting effects. In times of plenty many of the pro-lockdowners would all be about the negative lifelong impact of recessions and job losses and low wages, and all those things that are outcomes of lockdown. All out the window and forgotten.
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UncleFB
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by UncleFB »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:00 am
UncleFB wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:14 am
Sheesh dude, just own the fact you muddled up your dates. NZ lockdowned before some Western nations and less than a week after some others so they weren't slower to respond to the danger relative to most western countries,
I never claimed most western countries, I stated most of Europe.
Yes you did:
when in fact it did little different to most western countries and was in fact slower to respond to the danger,
At any rate my point still stands even if we limit it to Europe.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:00 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:06 pm
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm Lets see what Winter brings

(By the way, smoking, speeding, eating rubbish are personal choice - contracting a virus is not)
Yes, that is a good point.

I am nitpicking but being hit by a speeding driver is not a personal choice either. But still, I get what you are saying.

And yes, I am concerned about what Winter may bring. In the Southern Hemisphere you should be equally optimistic about summer.
Well if we're nitpicking, then we should point out that we have quite a lot of safety restrictions in place to try and prevent you being hit by a speeding driver.

But I also get what you are saying.
Obviously not as many, as the deaths caused by car accidents is far higher than coronavirus.
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CM11
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:20 am
Fat Old Git wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:00 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:06 pm
Enzedder wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm Lets see what Winter brings

(By the way, smoking, speeding, eating rubbish are personal choice - contracting a virus is not)
Yes, that is a good point.

I am nitpicking but being hit by a speeding driver is not a personal choice either. But still, I get what you are saying.

And yes, I am concerned about what Winter may bring. In the Southern Hemisphere you should be equally optimistic about summer.
Well if we're nitpicking, then we should point out that we have quite a lot of safety restrictions in place to try and prevent you being hit by a speeding driver.

But I also get what you are saying.
Obviously not as many, as the deaths caused by car accidents is far higher than coronavirus.
Covid deaths are getting close to worldwide deaths due to car accidents and are well past said deaths in the 1st World. Nearly by a factor of 30 in Sweden, for example.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

I had NZ in mind, but to be completely honest I just assumed it would still apply for many other countries.

But the point still remains. You could take any one of a whole heap of examples: obesity, cigarettes, alcohol, occupational health & safety, whatever. And even if they all kill less than corona-virus (I haven't looked it up but I'd be shocked if they did), the point still remains that discussing the amount of deaths vs the social/economic costs is a legitimate question. "Zero" is not a realistic answer. "As low as humanly possible" maybe, but it comes with sacrifices. That's the real point I'm trying to make.

P.S. A quick google search shows that obesity kills about five million people a year. Which is a scary statistic considering that only a relatively small fraction of the rich world is obese.

P.P.S. As a side note, obesity is one of the prime risk factors for corona-virus. If an obese person catches COVID and dies you have to ask the question: if he/she would have lived if they did not catch coronavirus and he or she would have lived if they were not obese, what killed them? Coronavirus or obesity? That's kind of beside the main point though.

P.P.P.S Nothing against fatties. I could lose a few kegs myself.
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CM11
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Obese people have a shorter lifespan, on average. That doesn't mean they're just waiting to die and if covid gets them, it was really obesity.

Of course everything has a balance that must be struck between economic cost and individual health but I don't think we have all the variables for that equation yet. At the start, the mantra in America was 'sure 80k die from flu every year and we don't shut the economy down' and that's part of the reason they're at where they're at. If covid kills the sane amount every year, we have a big problem, if it's top loading deaths then that's different. As I said, not enough info yet.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

I don't really get the logic behind your first sentence, but other than that, I agree.

I think there has been a huge drop in case-fatality-rate (correct me if I'm wrong?) since the outbreak began. If so, that has not doubt something to do with improved treatment options, but also, I'd be surprised if it were not also a contributing factor that some statistically significant number of the most vulnerable have already caught it and, well... died. At the very least in places like Sweden. They maybe still hanging on in other places such as NZ.

In any case, it's definitely true that the experts are still figuring it out and we'll be in a better position to judge retrospectively in a year or two.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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CM11 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:58 am Obese people have a shorter lifespan, on average. That doesn't mean they're just waiting to die and if covid gets them, it was really obesity.

Of course everything has a balance that must be struck between economic cost and individual health but I don't think we have all the variables for that equation yet. At the start, the mantra in America was 'sure 80k die from flu every year and we don't shut the economy down' and that's part of the reason they're at where they're at. If covid kills the sane amount every year, we have a big problem, if it's top loading deaths then that's different. As I said, not enough info yet.
I really hope lots of people have taken the time lockdown has given us to improve their health. I've always been quite fit but I've definitely increased my fitness levels since March.
Last edited by Anonymous 1 on Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am I don't really get the logic behind your first sentence, but other than that, I agree.

I think there has been a huge drop in case-fatality-rate (correct me if I'm wrong?) since the outbreak began. If so, that has not doubt something to do with improved treatment options, but also, I'd be surprised if it were not also a contributing factor that some statistically significant number of the most vulnerable have already caught it and, well... died. At the very least in places like Sweden. They maybe still hanging on in other places such as NZ.

In any case, it's definitely true that the experts are still figuring it out and we'll be in a better position to judge retrospectively in a year or two.
Improved treatment to some extent, but hospitalisations have dropped off too. This I think is largely due to those people that know they are at a higher risk, being more sensible about their comings and goings and more focus on hygiene at healthcare/aged care facilities* is helping those most vulnerable folks too. So while we may be seeing a second wave and increase in infections, these infections are occurring amongst the lower risk categories therefore less hospitalisations/deaths.

* Interesting case in point, there are less deaths in Aged Care in Australia this year even with Covid than there were last year. More vigilance, better hygiene etc.
Last edited by Clogs on Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CM11
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am I don't really get the logic behind your first sentence, but other than that, I agree.

I think there has been a huge drop in case-fatality-rate (correct me if I'm wrong?) since the outbreak began. If so, that has not doubt something to do with improved treatment options, but also, I'd be surprised if it were not also a contributing factor that some statistically significant number of the most vulnerable have already caught it and, well... died.

In any case, it's definitely true that the experts are still figuring it out and we'll be in a better position to judge retrospectively in a year or two.
You seem to be implying that an obese person who catches covid and dies, really died of obesity.

Obese people are more prone to dying for multiple reasons. It doesn't mean a currently obese person won't live for another 50 years so we can't just dismiss their death due to covid.

I'm also not sure where you're getting a small fraction of the rich world being obese. It's 13% worldwide and that's lowered by the poorer countries. 36% in the US.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

CM11 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:12 am You seem to be implying that an obese person who catches covid and dies, really died of obesity.

Obese people are more prone to dying for multiple reasons. It doesn't mean a currently obese person won't live for another 50 years so we can't just dismiss their death due to covid.
I'm not implying anything, I'm just asking the question. There maybe some legitimate reason to lay the blame squarely on corona-virus (if anyone is every doing that), but if there is, I haven't heard it. I wasn't making a political statement, it was just an interesting question related to obesity and coronavirus.

FWIW, you could take your second sentence from the above and just reverse "obese" and "covid" and it would make equally as much sense. Perhaps more considering someone who has coronavirus right now is possibly more likely to live another 50 years than someone who is obese right now.

CM11 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:12 am I'm also not sure where you're getting a small fraction of the rich world being obese. It's 13% worldwide and that's lowered by the poorer countries. 36% in the US.
What I meant was, "obesity is more prevalent in a small fraction of the word: the richest nations". I can understand how that was misunderstood.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Clogs wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:12 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:05 am I don't really get the logic behind your first sentence, but other than that, I agree.

I think there has been a huge drop in case-fatality-rate (correct me if I'm wrong?) since the outbreak began. If so, that has not doubt something to do with improved treatment options, but also, I'd be surprised if it were not also a contributing factor that some statistically significant number of the most vulnerable have already caught it and, well... died. At the very least in places like Sweden. They maybe still hanging on in other places such as NZ.

In any case, it's definitely true that the experts are still figuring it out and we'll be in a better position to judge retrospectively in a year or two.
Improved treatment to some extent, but hospitalisations have dropped off too. This I think is largely due to those people that know they are at a higher risk, being more sensible about their comings and goings and more focus on hygiene at healthcare/aged care facilities* is helping those most vulnerable folks too. So while we may be seeing a second wave and increase in infections, these infections are occurring amongst the lower risk categories therefore less hospitalisations/deaths.

* Interesting case in point, there are less deaths in Aged Care in Australia this year even with Covid than there were last year. More vigilance, better hygiene etc.
Anecdotally, it seems to me that people in Sweden at least are being noticeably less careful. At the beginning of the outbreak, Stockholm was like a ghost-town, hand sanitizer and medicine disapeared from store shelves, online grocery shopping services were overloaded, etc. etc.

These days it's almost life as usual, complete with packed public-transport, people returning to the office, packed out shopping centers, and people ignoring even the free hand sanitizer that is strategically placed around the place.
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CM11
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Fair enough on the obese percentage misunderstanding.

On the other stuff, you can take your argument and replace poverty with obesity too. Or any other secondary condition/situation that weakens your life expectancy. This is the whole point of the 'it only gets old/vulnerable people' argument when actually a good third or more of most populations fall into that category.

For the record, obesity is absolutely an issue that needs to be tackled, let's for argument's sake say even more than covid, but it's not something that can be tackled or needs to be tackled with sweeping public measures that effect everyone.
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