It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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shanky
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by shanky »

bimboman wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am This cannot be true, posters have confirmed Swedish Scientists and authority’s have done a massive Mea Culpa and wish they were really Danish.
That might equally/perhaps have more to do with the Swedes stereotypically being morose fvckers
:lol:
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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EverReady wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:39 pm Again this notion that every state cost benefit analysis doesn't factor in acceptable deaths. From the roads that we build, to the amount of Brexit medicine stockpiles needed to whether or not to have sugar taxes deaths are to the fore. Acceptable levels of deaths. Every country has a figure and until Covid it wasn't so conservative but there are lots of forces at play these days pulling people left and right.
When you kill a man and people see you kill the man yet you deny you killed him. No one is going to give a shit why you killed him.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Government has always controlled the narrative on acceptable deaths quite well e.g. no we are not building a motorway in the arsehole of nowhere to prevent the death of 15 teenagers a year on old back roads. It's clear the motorway will save 100's of cumulative lives but society says nah we ain't paying for that. It's usually selfish as in I dont live there etc. In covid's case the selfish bit is age and lack of infirmity driving matters. Boris blinked and he really shouldn't have. He had the perfect conditions to drive the risk taking agenda they wanted but then he got sick because he is a fat bastard and the rest is history. Ireland hadn't a hope as we are in thrall to the hard left
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Clogs wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:35 am https://principia-scientific.com/sweden ... -victory/?


Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory


Published on September 8, 2020

Written by Steve Watson


As the rest of Europe and the world remains under the grip of draconian rules and the threat of new lockdowns, Sweden, which allowed its citizens to remain free throughout the entire pandemic, has pretty much declared victory over the coronavirus.

The country now has one of the lowest infection rates on the planet, and it’s difficult not to admire how it has handled the past year, with no strict lockdown or compulsory face mask rules. All businesses, schools and public places remained open in Sweden for the duration.

“Sweden Has Gone From Being The Country With The Most Infections In Europe To The Safest One,” Sweden’s Senior Epidemiologist Dr. Anders Tegnell Commented To Italian Newspaper Corriere Della Sera.
“What we see now is that the sustainable policy might be slower in getting results, but it will get results eventually,” Tegnell clarified. “And then we also hope that the result will be more stable,” he added.


Tegnell previously warned that encouraging people to wear face masks is “very dangerous” because it gives a false sense of security but does not effectively stem the spread of the virus.

“The findings that have been produced through face masks are astonishingly weak, even though so many people around the world wear them,” Tengell has urged.

Last week, the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control confirmed Sweden’s drop in infection rate, with only 12 cases per million, compared to 18 in neighbouring Denmark and 14 in nearby Norway.

At the peak of the Sweden’s outbreak, it was seeing 108 new infections per million people, as it pursued a “herd immunity” strategy.

The figures also show that out of 2500 randomly selected and tested people in Sweden, none tested positive, compared to 0.9 percent positive in April, and 0.3 percent in May.

“We interpret this as meaning there is not currently a widespread infection among people who do not have symptoms,” said Karin Tegmark, deputy head of the Public Health Agency of Sweden.

When compared to the rest of Europe, Sweden’s death rate sits somewhere in the middle. However, officials are confident that playing the long game will see this improve drastically.

Read more at summit.news
So advocating face masks gives a false sense of security but doing nothing and telling people not to do anything differently doesn't. How does that work?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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EverReady wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:05 pm Government has always controlled the narrative on acceptable deaths quite well e.g. no we are not building a motorway in the arsehole of nowhere to prevent the death of 15 teenagers a year on old back roads. It's clear the motorway will save 100's of cumulative lives but society says nah we ain't paying for that. It's usually selfish as in I dont live there etc. In covid's case the selfish bit is age and lack of infirmity driving matters. Boris blinked and he really shouldn't have. He had the perfect conditions to drive the risk taking agenda they wanted but then he got sick because he is a fat bastard and the rest is history. Ireland hadn't a hope as we are in thrall to the hard left

The health service has always had an equation for the value of services per person, that persons age has always been a large part of that equation. If anything Covid has ignored that equation and the very premise.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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It's been unusual alright. In my view the schism in the states and elsewhere has had a large part to play in the international narrative. Nuance on this and other matters is currently a thing of the past
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by eldanielfire »

MrJonno wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:09 pm

So advocating face masks gives a false sense of security but doing nothing and telling people not to do anything differently doesn't. How does that work?
Sweden haven't done nothing nor advocated doing nothing. The promote social distancing, hand washing ad other measures to prevent the spread of COVID-19. They didn't do a lockdown however.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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While I feel fortunate (so far) to be living in Sweden at this time, I wouldn't trust a thing that source says. A quick browse through their articles shows a very unscientific, ideological based pattern of anti-lockdown, anti-mask and anti-global-warming drivel. The website also looks like it was put together by some nut in his mother's basement.

Yes, poisoning the well. All I'm saying is that one should read that article with a healthy dollop of scepticism and critical thought.

The fact is that Sweden has shown a very small economic advantage over her neighbours at the cost of thousands of lives. And although the current trends look promising (at least before the cold/flu season is here), we are certainly not in a position to be declaring ourselves winners of anything whatsoever. That said, I also believe it's too early to tell, maybe they did get it right. The Swedish (expert epidemiological advice) was that a lockdown is just pushing the problem further down the track for little or no gain and everyone is going to have to deal with it sooner or later. That may yet turn out to be entirely accurate. I still wouldn't be about getting my news from that website, it reeks of nutty propaganda. If they're right it seems it would be by pure coincidence.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

Clogs wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:35 am https://principia-scientific.com/sweden ... -victory/?


Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory


Published on September 8, 2020

Written by Steve Watson


As the rest of Europe and the world remains under the grip of draconian rules and the threat of new lockdowns, Sweden, which allowed its citizens to remain free throughout the entire pandemic, has pretty much declared victory over the coronavirus.

The country now has one of the lowest infection rates on the planet, and it’s difficult not to admire how it has handled the past year, with no strict lockdown or compulsory face mask rules. All businesses, schools and public places remained open in Sweden for the duration.

“Sweden Has Gone From Being The Country With The Most Infections In Europe To The Safest One,” Sweden’s Senior Epidemiologist Dr. Anders Tegnell Commented To Italian Newspaper Corriere Della Sera.
“What we see now is that the sustainable policy might be slower in getting results, but it will get results eventually,” Tegnell clarified. “And then we also hope that the result will be more stable,” he added.


Tegnell previously warned that encouraging people to wear face masks is “very dangerous” because it gives a false sense of security but does not effectively stem the spread of the virus.

“The findings that have been produced through face masks are astonishingly weak, even though so many people around the world wear them,” Tengell has urged.

Last week, the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control confirmed Sweden’s drop in infection rate, with only 12 cases per million, compared to 18 in neighbouring Denmark and 14 in nearby Norway.

At the peak of the Sweden’s outbreak, it was seeing 108 new infections per million people, as it pursued a “herd immunity” strategy.

The figures also show that out of 2500 randomly selected and tested people in Sweden, none tested positive, compared to 0.9 percent positive in April, and 0.3 percent in May.

“We interpret this as meaning there is not currently a widespread infection among people who do not have symptoms,” said Karin Tegmark, deputy head of the Public Health Agency of Sweden.

When compared to the rest of Europe, Sweden’s death rate sits somewhere in the middle. However, officials are confident that playing the long game will see this improve drastically.

Read more at summit.news


Pity the UK government got crucified for suggesting that developing herd immunity was key to arresting the spread of the virus. They were right,not that anyone who joined the pile-on will ever admit.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:39 pm Pity the UK government got crucified for suggesting that developing herd immunity was key to arresting the spread of the virus. They were right,not that anyone who joined the pile-on will ever admit.
Firstly, Sweden is a very long way off of developing herd immunity. I believe to achieve herd immunity you need to reach about 60% infection rate in the general population. I heard on the radio the other day we're at about 3%. Although it is true that relies on actual testing of the entire population to be accurate, I'd be shocked if it bumped it up by 57% percent.

Secondly, nobody is arguing a lockdown would make the situation worse in the short term. The argument is only that it's pushing the "big hump" down the track and everyone will have to deal with it at some time. That is of course in the absence of a safe and effective vaccine. So whatever the reason that the statistics are not good in the UK, it's not because they went into lockdown (albeit late).
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Old uniballer back to spread bollocks :lol:
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:26 pm While I feel fortunate (so far) to be living in Sweden at this time, I wouldn't trust a thing that source says. A quick browse through their articles shows a very unscientific, ideological based pattern of anti-lockdown, anti-mask and anti-global-warming drivel. The website also looks like it was put together by some nut in his mother's basement.

Yes, poisoning the well. All I'm saying is that one should read that article with a healthy dollop of scepticism and critical thought.

The fact is that Sweden has shown a very small economic advantage over her neighbours at the cost of thousands of lives. And although the current trends look promising (at least before the cold/flu season is here), we are certainly not in a position to be declaring ourselves winners of anything whatsoever. That said, I also believe it's too early to tell, maybe they did get it right. The Swedish (expert epidemiological advice) was that a lockdown is just pushing the problem further down the track for little or no gain and everyone is going to have to deal with it sooner or later. That may yet turn out to be entirely accurate. I still wouldn't be about getting my news from that website, it reeks of nutty propaganda. If they're right it seems it would be by pure coincidence.
That would only be correct if further down the track the world wouldn't have shared knowledge on best practice and developed therapeutic treatments

Everything you need to know about the COVID-19 therapy trials
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:49 pm
Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:39 pm Pity the UK government got crucified for suggesting that developing herd immunity was key to arresting the spread of the virus. They were right,not that anyone who joined the pile-on will ever admit.
Firstly, Sweden is a very long way off of developing herd immunity. I believe to achieve herd immunity you need to reach about 60% infection rate in the general population. I heard on the radio the other day we're at about 3%. Although it is true that relies on actual testing of the entire population to be accurate, I'd be shocked if it bumped it up by 57% percent.

Secondly, nobody is arguing a lockdown would make the situation worse in the short term. The argument is only that it's pushing the "big hump" down the track and everyone will have to deal with it at some time. That is of course in the absence of a safe and effective vaccine. So whatever the reason that the statistics are not good in the UK, it's not because they went into lockdown (albeit late).

The article suggests Sweden were/are following a herd immunity strategy.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:57 pm That would only be correct if further down the track the world wouldn't have shared knowledge on best practice and developed therapeutic treatments

Everything you need to know about the COVID-19 therapy trials
CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
Yes, those things are true. Sweden has maybe ridden on the coat-tails of the rest of the world there to some extent. But wtf do I know about it? We're all speculating really. I believe this problem is so complex that the world's leading experts still are pretty confused. In Sweden's defence, the medical system was never overwhelmed.

Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:58 pm The article suggests Sweden were/are following a herd immunity strategy.
The article is nonsense. The Swedish medical leaders were straight forward from the start saying that was not the aim. That is, I should mention, despite some recent leaked emails where they discussed the possibility that it may occur and concluded it would not (but nevertheless held up by those with an agenda to claim the opposite).
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:22 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:57 pm That would only be correct if further down the track the world wouldn't have shared knowledge on best practice and developed therapeutic treatments

Everything you need to know about the COVID-19 therapy trials
CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
Yes, those things are true. Sweden has maybe ridden on the coat-tails of the rest of the world there to some extent. But wtf do I know about it? We're all speculating really. I believe this problem is so complex that the world's leading experts still are pretty confused. In Sweden's defence, the medical system was never overwhelmed.

Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:58 pm The article suggests Sweden were/are following a herd immunity strategy.
The article is nonsense. The Swedish medical leaders were straight forward from the start saying that was not the aim. That is, I should mention, despite some recent leaked emails where they discussed the possibility that it may occur and concluded it would not (but nevertheless held up by those with an agenda to claim the opposite).


Have you had any articles published?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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I think Sweden's mistake was to treat it too impassionately in their straightforward manner. As a result, as Tignell says, they didn't protect the elderly enough (I think it was quite a few weeks from first case to lockdown of care homes, one of the longest in Europe). I also don't think they allowed for the toll the virus takes on those who recover and treated it like any other virus as far as the healthy population was concerned. If it was only the latter, you'd have to just live with that but the combination of the two makes this thing more serious.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:32 pm Have you had any articles published?
No. Do I sound like I pretend to know anything about this? (this virus and best course of action, that is, not what is matter of public record).

CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:32 pm I think Sweden's mistake was to treat it too impassionately in their straightforward manner. As a result, as Tignell says, they didn't protect the elderly enough (I think it was quite a few weeks from first case to lockdown of care homes, one of the longest in Europe). I also don't think they allowed for the toll the virus takes on those who recover and treated it like any other virus as far as the healthy population was concerned. If it was only the latter, you'd have to just live with that but the combination of the two makes this thing more serious.
Maybe. I don't think anyone really knows yet, which is crazy. I'd by lying if I didn't say I'd hoped this would be over in a few months when it started (although I do feel vindicated on the mortality rate). I think only time will tell, they'll probably need years worth of data and retrospect before they can conclusively say who got it right and who didn't. At the moment it seems anyone coming out of lockdown immediately sees a big spike, which is basically exactly why Sweden didn't bother from the beginning.

I'm obviously speculating here, but the thought has crossed my mind that if a safe, effective, easily dispersible vaccine is available soon and the majority of the population is vaccinated in short order (seems like wishful thinking right now) then Sweden probably got it wrong. Otherwise, all bets are off. We'll all see in the coming years.

As far as ongoing problems goes, I don't think anyone knows and I don't trust sensationalist journalists. It's well known that a common cold or flu can have adverse effects on the heart and lungs for a lifetime. Perhaps coronavirus has much more serious long term effects, perhaps some journos read some thoroughly predictable and mundane scientific conclusions and beat it up. We'll see (if I had to guess, I'd guess it has mildly more serious long term effects, but it would be a guess just like everyone else).
Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Never lived there but have a couple of friends there now. They say that social isolation is practically the norm in Sweden and a big issue. Kids leave the nest and barely look back. Couples who live in their own separate gaffs etc etc.

Might this be a big enabler for Sweden's strategy, something that wouldn't work in a Latin culture where I live now, as everyone lives for hanging out with friends and family, young and old.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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jezzer wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:43 pm Never lived there but have a couple of friends there now. They say that social isolation is practically the norm in Sweden and a big issue. Kids leave the nest and barely look back. Couples who live in their own separate gaffs etc etc.

Might this be a big enabler for Sweden's strategy, something that wouldn't work in a Latin culture where I live now, as everyone lives for hanging out with friends and family, young and old.
I'd be shocked if that were not a major factor.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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jezzer wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:43 pm Never lived there but have a couple of friends there now. They say that social isolation is practically the norm in Sweden and a big issue. Kids leave the nest and barely look back. Couples who live in their own separate gaffs etc etc.

Might this be a big enabler for Sweden's strategy, something that wouldn't work in a Latin culture where I live now, as everyone lives for hanging out with friends and family, young and old.
Think it's oft quoted when this comes up that around 55% of Swedish households are single dwellings.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:47 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
And yet Tegnell is trolling to an extent with the dead citizens and saying that their deaths were worthwhile.
NZL is a complete basket case. Jacinda and Dan Andrews should go get a room. Both are tyrannical pieces of shit!
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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EverReady wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:05 pmBoris blinked and he really shouldn't have. He had the perfect conditions to drive the risk taking agenda they wanted but then he got sick because he is a fat bastard and the rest is history. Ireland hadn't a hope as we are in thrall to the hard left
Spot on. The UK is 'governed' by spineless populists ATM who've back-tracked and flip-flopped to follow the political wind to the extent that nothing useful can be learned from their experience. They should have stuck to it and been more targeted with their advice, and more forceful with messaging and vigilance in order to protect the most vulnerable groups. They had the data (from the epidemic scenario they ran in 2016) and therefore the chance to set a more meaningful example than Sweden given the size of the population, the mix of social modes, the more spread blend of urban and non-urban habitation styles and life patterns. But instead they fudged the whole opportunity while sitting on the the largest public health service in the world. They were partly forced by the shortcomings of the NHS in terms of chronic under-resourcing. If it had been maintained the way it should, the UK was surely well-placed.

Strange Boris wasn't prepared to demonstrate the sort of brash national self-confidence he insists Brexit is all about, yielding instead to the sentiments of polar-opposite ideologues. What an absolute c#nt and curse on the nation he is!
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:12 pm
jezzer wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:43 pm Never lived there but have a couple of friends there now. They say that social isolation is practically the norm in Sweden and a big issue. Kids leave the nest and barely look back. Couples who live in their own separate gaffs etc etc.

Might this be a big enabler for Sweden's strategy, something that wouldn't work in a Latin culture where I live now, as everyone lives for hanging out with friends and family, young and old.
Think it's oft quoted when this comes up that around 55% of Swedish households are single dwellings.
I must admit, it's pretty rare in my experience that (adult) couples live apart. That said, how does 55% compare with the rest of the world? Even 55% for one-person households sounds very high!

Regardless of living space, I would say that Swedes do naturally social distance more than many other cultures. Greeting friends, especially of the opposite sex, with a hug, for example, would be considered kind of weird. It does happen, but it's mostly the younger generation who seem heavily influenced by the large immigrant population. I'm so used to that now that when someone above 30 does it, it seems a bit creepy.

That is in stark contrast with for example, Italians, who will hug and kiss each other on the cheek gender notwithstanding after being separated for more then three minutes.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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RandomNavigat0r wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:39 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:47 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
And yet Tegnell is trolling to an extent with the dead citizens and saying that their deaths were worthwhile.
NZL is a complete basket case. Jacinda and Dan Andrews should go get a room. Both are tyrannical pieces of shit!
Shit trolling, bro. Go hard or go home.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Sweden has 578 deaths/million, so no wonder dumbot from Britain at 612 deaths/million looks on jealously. :roll:
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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mabunch78 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:13 am
EverReady wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:05 pmBoris blinked and he really shouldn't have. He had the perfect conditions to drive the risk taking agenda they wanted but then he got sick because he is a fat bastard and the rest is history. Ireland hadn't a hope as we are in thrall to the hard left
Spot on. The UK is 'governed' by spineless populists ATM who've back-tracked and flip-flopped to follow the political wind to the extent that nothing useful can be learned from their experience. They should have stuck to it and been more targeted with their advice, and more forceful with messaging and vigilance in order to protect the most vulnerable groups. They had the data (from the epidemic scenario they ran in 2016) and therefore the chance to set a more meaningful example than Sweden given the size of the population, the mix of social modes, the more spread blend of urban and non-urban habitation styles and life patterns. But instead they fudged the whole opportunity while sitting on the the largest public health service in the world. They were partly forced by the shortcomings of the NHS in terms of chronic under-resourcing. If it had been maintained the way it should, the UK was surely well-placed.

Strange Boris wasn't prepared to demonstrate the sort of brash national self-confidence he insists Brexit is all about, yielding instead to the sentiments of polar-opposite ideologues. What an absolute c#nt and curse on the nation he is!


The NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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22nd.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by mabunch78 »

bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:57 amThe NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
Swallowing the koolade again? The NHS does more with less when compared with public health systems in equivalent economies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ca ... ed_Kingdom) but over time this has obviously eroded its resilience.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Muttonbirds wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:55 am Sweden has 578 deaths/million, so no wonder dumbot from Britain at 612 deaths/million looks on jealously. :roll:
Nobody is arguing that Sweden is coming from not-so-great a place (at least compared to her neighbours, if you're just comparing death-statistics).

But we had zero corona-related deaths reported yesterday (down from 1 the day before) and daily infection rates are dropping sharply. That may not be all that remarkable on the surface, what is fairly unique however, is that it's occurred without any form of lockdown and scant wearing of masks or anything like that, where countries that are used as comparisons are mostly still in lockdown. That's why people are talking about it. In the UK there has been an upwards trend, as opposed to Sweden's continued downwards one, after lockdown restrictions were eased, which mirrors pretty much everywhere else that's tried to ease out of lockdown. So far it all lends weight to Anders Tegnell's assertions that lockdown is just pushing the problem off down the track and everyone will have to deal with it eventually.

Don't get me wrong on this - I'm not pro Sweden's methods and I'm not anti-lockdown. I know what I don't know and just don't have an opinion on it yet. My opinion is that we'll all be better off to judge who did it right and who did it wrong in retrospect given another few years. My point is only that it's certainly not black-and-white at this stage. I'm worried about what the winter will bring, maybe all of Sweden's progress will be undone.
Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
bimboman
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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mabunch78 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:20 am
bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:57 amThe NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
Swallowing the koolade again? The NHS does more with less when compared with public health systems in equivalent economies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ca ... ed_Kingdom) but over time this has obviously eroded its resilience.


They threw 10 billion at PHE for the test and trace app. Billions in extra covid funding, 1 billion pounds every three days other wise. It isn’t short of money it’s badly run.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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mabunch78 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:20 am
bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:57 amThe NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
Swallowing the koolade again? The NHS does more with less when compared with public health systems in equivalent economies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ca ... ed_Kingdom) but over time this has obviously eroded its resilience.
The NHS is fantastic and any corrosion of that institution is virtually a direct result of conservative politics. If you took everything that Bimbot typed on this forum and just blindly said the exact opposite thing, you'd actually be right the overwhelming majority of the time. It's a good strategy if you have no idea what's going on but you want to look knowledgable and smart anyway: just say the opposite thing to Bimbot.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:36 am
mabunch78 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:20 am
bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:57 amThe NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
Swallowing the koolade again? The NHS does more with less when compared with public health systems in equivalent economies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ca ... ed_Kingdom) but over time this has obviously eroded its resilience.
The NHS is fantastic and any corrosion of that institution is virtually a direct result of conservative politics. If you took everything that Bimbot typed ont his forum and just blindly said the exact opposite thing, you'd actually be right the overwhelming majority of the time. It's a good strategy if you have no idea what's going on but you want to look knowledgable and smart anyway: just say the opposite thing to Bimbot.


It’s average at best. You know nothing of it fool. It also has increased funding every year from the conservative politics. In fact it is better funded than at any time between 1997 and 2010. But hey just make stuff up as you always do.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Really? The torries are the ones championing the NHS? Fair enough, I stand corrected. :lol:
But the British government has opted for a different focus. With “Stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives”, the message seems to be if you act responsibly you can protect your prized asset – and, as a byproduct, that will save lives.

Boris Johnson, of course, has form with vacuous three-word slogans – be it “Take back control” or “Get Brexit done”. And now we have a triptych slogan – three three-worders for the price of one. The first and last bit make perfect sense. Of course, we should stay at home to save lives. It’s only when you add the bit in the middle that the slogan becomes questionable.

First, there’s the rank hypocrisy of a government that has spent 10 years doing the exact opposite of ordering us to protect the NHS. In fact, the Tory-led coalition was so little trusted with the NHS that David Cameron had to create his own slogan in 2011 to reassure the public: “The NHS is safe in our hands”.

Over the next decade, the Tories went on to neglect the NHS at best, pillage it at worst. Pre-Covid-19, the number of NHS hospital beds had fallen dramatically and we were short of an estimated 43,000 nurses.

The Tory government also did its best to quietly sell off parts of the NHS. In 2013 the government sold 80% of the state-owned blood plasma supplier to the US private equity firm Bain Capital for $200m. This despite the obscenity of Britain’s contaminated blood scandal when more than 4,500 haemophiliacs became infected with hepatitis and HIV in the 1970s and 1980s after being poisoned with blood products brought on the cheap from abroad. In 2016 Britain’s plasma supplier was sold on to a Chinese company for £820m (along with the government’s remaining 20% stake). Protect the NHS? The Tories flogged the country’s lifeblood for tuppence ha’penny.

Johnson talks with pride about “our NHS” and our heroic NHS workers. Yet this is the same man who voted against scrapping the 1% pay-rise cap for NHS nurses in 2017, and was a member of the government that cheered when a pay rise for nurses was blocked.

Then it was the turn of the health secretary, Matthew Hancock, to tell us how proud he was of us for staying at home, protecting the NHS and saving lives.

There is something distasteful about a government telling us to protect the NHS when the government itself is so obviously failing to do so in this terrible crisis. As of Thursday, only 7,000 out of 550,000 frontline NHS workers have been tested for Covid-19. Not only does this mean the government is failing to protect the NHS and its workers – it hasn’t even been able to provide the required personal protective equipment – it is, in turn, failing to protect us all because the public could be treated by infected staff members.
- src
Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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A man from the guardian doesn’t like the nasty Tories hey Mog. :lol: As I said fool.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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The UK still threw the elderly under a bus, when we cleared the hospitals, moving patients out with COVID-19 into care homes, ultimately ensuring that in a few weeks the care homes had spare beds...

The UK policy was initially to follow Sweden model, but the Imperial model and Boris getting ill stopped that.

One of the interesting stats will be the cancer death rates in the next year.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:57 am A man from the guardian doesn’t like the nasty Tories hey Mog. :lol: As I said fool.
Just so I understand right, what you are saying here is it in the UK it's actually the conservative right-wing government that most values and supports public healthcare? :? And I'm the fool?
Boris Johnson kicked off the Tories’ general election campaign this week with the bold claim that they were “the party of the NHS.” This follows many months of messaging aimed at wrapping the Conservative Party in the flag of public healthcare. But what is their real record as custodians of the National Health Service?

At Conservative Party conference this year, party chair James Cleverly claimed that the Tories had founded the NHS. This was met with widespread derision — the Tories had, in fact, voted against the creation of the NHS 22 times. And throughout their term in office, since the NHS was established in 1948, the Tories have sought to undermine the social vision which brought it into being.

At the inception of the NHS, its creator Aneurin Bevan said, “we will never have all we need. Expectation will always exceed capacity. This service must always be changing, growing and improving, it must always appear inadequate.” Bevan knew that change had to be part of the fabric of the NHS. However, successive changes by Tory governments have undermined the core values of the NHS as a universal, publicly owned health service, which is free at the point of use.

Service Act 1980, when the Thatcher government tried to incentivise the use of private healthcare services. Such was the NHS’s popularity, that the effort largely failed — and demand for public healthcare continued to rise. But the Conservatives weren’t finished. Their answer to the rise in demand for NHS services was to starve public healthcare of funding, and instead turn to the market to fill in the gaps left behind by government cutbacks.

Consequently, they introduced the National Health Service and Community Act of 1990, creating the first split between commissioners and providers of healthcare services within the NHS. This commissioner-provider split was devised to create an ‘internal market’ within the NHS, with the argument being that this competition would drive up quality and reduce costs. Instead, the internal market became a milestone of NHS privatisation and fragmentation.

Instead of focusing on care, hospitals were forced to direct their attention to competing with one another to provide healthcare services and, as a result, NHS administration costs doubled. The NHS remained the preferred provider for healthcare services but support services like cleaning, catering, and security were increasingly privatised.

When the Tories returned to government with the Liberal Democrats in 2010, they continued this drive to ‘modernise’ the NHS with market reforms. That government’s Health and Social Care Act 2012 was arguably the greatest reorganisation of the NHS in history. Under this new legislative framework, the Secretary of State for Health’s overall responsibility for the NHS was abolished. Clinical commissioning groups and NHS England became responsible for commissioning healthcare services not from the NHS but from ‘any qualified provider’ with a compulsory tendering and procurement process, and local authorities became responsible for public health and prevention services.
src
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Clogs wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:26 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:22 am
bimboman wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:45 am This cannot be true, posters have confirmed Swedish Scientists and authority’s have done a massive Mea Culpa and wish they were really Danish.
Whether you are pro or against the Swedish model the final outcomes on what actions constitutes a success in this pandemic is still a long way off.
Agreed. We are still very early on in this marathon. I just found it a little odd that Sweden seem to have gone the early crow. Being PR it was too good an opportunity to not post it here...

The Swedes are happy that they’re strategy is turning out to be a good one. They aren’t crowing because they’re beating other countries on a scoreboard.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
Really? I heard in March that it was to buy the health system’s supply chain time to ramp up. I guess the rationale changed some time....
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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towny wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:44 pm
CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
Really? I heard in March that it was to buy the health system’s supply chain time to ramp up. I guess the rationale changed some time....
Your statement is not mutually exclusive from mine.

The rationale in March was to avoid being overwhelmed. The benefit now is that we can deal with it better and save more lives. Sweden didn't need full lockdown to avoid being overwhelmed (arguments the same might have applied elsewhere) and arguably people died there who wouldn't today.
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