It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by eldanielfire »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 am
I agree. I was using that comment to highlight the ridiculousness of the comment.
I'm in agreement with you about that :lol:
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
He sent an email suggesting it might be a good idea to let the old people die. LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP LOCK HIM UP
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:43 am
Farva wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:21 am

This kind of misses the point of why the world reacted the way it did. Lets also not forget that 6k people died in Sweden in a population of 10m.
This conversation article does a good job of explaining why: https://theconversation.com/now-everyon ... ong-144494

Im also skeptical about using the 0.15% as the IFR. Its the lowest presented and so may set the lower bound of what it is. To be honest, it doesnt make sense when you consider that places like New York state have exceeded that already with the official numbers.
Other papers put out in the last few weeks have much higher IFRs, for example this article which does a literature review of many different IFR studies and finds a range of between 0.17% and 1.7% (picks between 0.53% and 0.82%) - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1220321809.
It could be as low as 0.15%. It could be as high as 1.7%. Its probably not 1.7% but its probably not 0.15%. Assuming 0.5% (the Sept 29 uses that as a mid point), that is substantially higher than the flu, an order of magnitude higher than normal flu, and maybe 5 times higher than bad flu seasons.
And as the conversation article says, that ignores the infectiousness of Covid, which has an R value of over twice that - what that means is that the rate if infection is much higher and more people will get sick than with the flu and hospitals will be under much more pressure.
Here is the problem with a single number IFR. It does not take into account the age brackets of the population. New York could well have a higher overall IFR, because they have a greater number of elderly and infirmed than say Delhi. That would definitely skew the data.

According to the CDC the IFR worst case for anyone under 50 is 0.02%. That is 25 times lower than your 0.5% number when comparing it to flu.
Over 50 and 70 it is 0.5% which is your number, but over 70 and this thing is fvcking super deadly at 5.4%. 1 in 20 people over the age of 70 will die from this fvcking thing if they contract it. If that figure hasn't mobilised all sorts of systems and processes in countries to protect their elderly then those politicians and public health officials should be up on criminal charges.
So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
I agree. I was using that comment to highlight the ridiculousness of the comment.


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by eldanielfire »

Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
But whose ignoring it? Every European government, possibly every government globally, including Sweden, is taking measures against the Coronavirus. What those measures are varies. SOme feel lockdowns are only delaying the inevitable spread of the virus with no Vaccine. Many authorities are also working with the certainty Lockdown measures, designed to limit the spread of COVID, also have an impact on the general publics health and are attempting to take measures to mitigate those factors as well. Some believe, with evidence to back it up, that the economic damage if the measures could out weight the overall impact of COVID in the long term.

The sad truth is sometimes these measures clash with each other. To claim there is a definite and clear path forward that must be followed or you are culpable in purposely allowing people to die is frankly total crap.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by iarmhiman »

Level 5 coming in for Ireland now for 6 weeks.
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AlanBengio
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by AlanBengio »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:43 am
Farva wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:21 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:40 pm [Say what? Deaths in Sweden from coronavirus over the past 4 months has hovered between zero and 2 a day. There's probably more people in Sweden dying slipping over in the shower.
This kind of misses the point of why the world reacted the way it did. Lets also not forget that 6k people died in Sweden in a population of 10m.
This conversation article does a good job of explaining why: https://theconversation.com/now-everyon ... ong-144494

Im also skeptical about using the 0.15% as the IFR. Its the lowest presented and so may set the lower bound of what it is. To be honest, it doesnt make sense when you consider that places like New York state have exceeded that already with the official numbers.
Other papers put out in the last few weeks have much higher IFRs, for example this article which does a literature review of many different IFR studies and finds a range of between 0.17% and 1.7% (picks between 0.53% and 0.82%) - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1220321809.
It could be as low as 0.15%. It could be as high as 1.7%. Its probably not 1.7% but its probably not 0.15%. Assuming 0.5% (the Sept 29 uses that as a mid point), that is substantially higher than the flu, an order of magnitude higher than normal flu, and maybe 5 times higher than bad flu seasons.
And as the conversation article says, that ignores the infectiousness of Covid, which has an R value of over twice that - what that means is that the rate if infection is much higher and more people will get sick than with the flu and hospitals will be under much more pressure.
Here is the problem with a single number IFR. It does not take into account the age brackets of the population. New York could well have a higher overall IFR, because they have a greater number of elderly and infirmed than say Delhi. That would definitely skew the data.

According to the CDC the IFR worst case for anyone under 50 is 0.02%. That is 25 times lower than your 0.5% number when comparing it to flu.
Over 50 and 70 it is 0.5% which is your number, but over 70 and this thing is fvcking super deadly at 5.4%. 1 in 20 people over the age of 70 will die from this fvcking thing if they contract it. If that figure hasn't mobilised all sorts of systems and processes in countries to protect their elderly then those politicians and public health officials should be up on criminal charges.
So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
This is not what happened there (and if this is what the media reported over there about this episode - then I will not believe anything Swedish related in Covid).
For that episode, there was a risk matrix implemented where - in relation to occurred events, measures had to be triggered.
The risk matrix was based obviously on past statistics and measures to be implemented did not have to be “assessed” - ie an event occurred: the measure had to be implemented.
It was previewed that, in relation to those events, to trigger an high risk response after a number of earthquakes of certain magnitude happened.
Those events happened - and the people responsible to trigger the consequent high risk scenario failed to trigger it (because it was later assessed they were not actually at their workplace).
But then this defense line of “nobody can predict earthquakes” struck in foreign countries... :? :?
Never knew why.
I think it is all related to the “my dick is longer than you” reasoning in the end.
Which is very similar in the end to the Covid / Swedish case (they claim victory even if infections rates are higher than Italy, and dead cases are equal.... victory where)
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by AlanBengio »

Off topic but very much related to what I wrote above, and other discussions I had over other topics (like “Mercedes never declared we will leave F1 because I never read it exactly anywhere”).
Many of you northern people rely too much on news as infallible oracle it seems.
Many should use the brain more to assess the true meaning of what is reported - or if what is reported is really trustable
Sorry if you intend it as racist - but really it is something that struck as a silly behavior over PR, where at anytime you try to argument something, another one is calling out for “absolute proof/published article” or either duck off
Last edited by AlanBengio on Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by AlanBengio »

)fu...king IPhones :x
Last edited by AlanBengio on Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by AlanBengio »

.
Conservative Eddie
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Conservative Eddie »

AlanBengio wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:36 pm Off topic but very much related to what I wrote above, and other discussions I had over other topics (like “Mercedes never declared we will leave F1 because I never read it exactly anywhere”).
Many of you northern people rely too much on news as infallible oracle it seems.
Many should use the brain more to assess the true meaning of what is reported - or if what is reported is really trustable
Sorry if you intend it as racist - but really it is something that struck as a silly behavior over PR, where at anytime you try to argument something, another one is calling out for “absolute proof/published article” or either duck off
They're not reading or watching any Italian or Swedish media in Italian or Swedish. Nor are they likely watching or reading the English versions. Instead, they're consuming unHerd or Spiked or something similar; some channel or publication with an obvious agenda to anyone who hasn't suffered a serious head injury.

That's where the source of "confusion" lies.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by bimboman »

Conservative Eddie wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:53 pm
AlanBengio wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:36 pm Off topic but very much related to what I wrote above, and other discussions I had over other topics (like “Mercedes never declared we will leave F1 because I never read it exactly anywhere”).
Many of you northern people rely too much on news as infallible oracle it seems.
Many should use the brain more to assess the true meaning of what is reported - or if what is reported is really trustable
Sorry if you intend it as racist - but really it is something that struck as a silly behavior over PR, where at anytime you try to argument something, another one is calling out for “absolute proof/published article” or either duck off
They're not reading or watching any Italian or Swedish media in Italian or Swedish. Nor are they likely watching or reading the English versions. Instead, they're consuming unHerd or Spiked or something similar; some channel or publication with an obvious agenda to anyone who hasn't suffered a serious head injury.

That's where the source of "confusion" lies.


There’s plenty of links on this thread and none of them are “spiked”. You can only look to disparage...


Unherd have some great content. Even you could learn something,
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

AlanBengio wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:43 am
Farva wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:21 am

This kind of misses the point of why the world reacted the way it did. Lets also not forget that 6k people died in Sweden in a population of 10m.
This conversation article does a good job of explaining why: https://theconversation.com/now-everyon ... ong-144494

Im also skeptical about using the 0.15% as the IFR. Its the lowest presented and so may set the lower bound of what it is. To be honest, it doesnt make sense when you consider that places like New York state have exceeded that already with the official numbers.
Other papers put out in the last few weeks have much higher IFRs, for example this article which does a literature review of many different IFR studies and finds a range of between 0.17% and 1.7% (picks between 0.53% and 0.82%) - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1220321809.
It could be as low as 0.15%. It could be as high as 1.7%. Its probably not 1.7% but its probably not 0.15%. Assuming 0.5% (the Sept 29 uses that as a mid point), that is substantially higher than the flu, an order of magnitude higher than normal flu, and maybe 5 times higher than bad flu seasons.
And as the conversation article says, that ignores the infectiousness of Covid, which has an R value of over twice that - what that means is that the rate if infection is much higher and more people will get sick than with the flu and hospitals will be under much more pressure.
Here is the problem with a single number IFR. It does not take into account the age brackets of the population. New York could well have a higher overall IFR, because they have a greater number of elderly and infirmed than say Delhi. That would definitely skew the data.

According to the CDC the IFR worst case for anyone under 50 is 0.02%. That is 25 times lower than your 0.5% number when comparing it to flu.
Over 50 and 70 it is 0.5% which is your number, but over 70 and this thing is fvcking super deadly at 5.4%. 1 in 20 people over the age of 70 will die from this fvcking thing if they contract it. If that figure hasn't mobilised all sorts of systems and processes in countries to protect their elderly then those politicians and public health officials should be up on criminal charges.
So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
This is not what happened there (and if this is what the media reported over there about this episode - then I will not believe anything Swedish related in Covid).
For that episode, there was a risk matrix implemented where - in relation to occurred events, measures had to be triggered.
The risk matrix was based obviously on past statistics and measures to be implemented did not have to be “assessed” - ie an event occurred: the measure had to be implemented.
It was previewed that, in relation to those events, to trigger an high risk response after a number of earthquakes of certain magnitude happened.
Those events happened - and the people responsible to trigger the consequent high risk scenario failed to trigger it (because it was later assessed they were not actually at their workplace).
But then this defense line of “nobody can predict earthquakes” struck in foreign countries... :? :?
Never knew why.
I think it is all related to the “my dick is longer than you” reasoning in the end.
Which is very similar in the end to the Covid / Swedish case (they claim victory even if infections rates are higher than Italy, and dead cases are equal.... victory where)
Take it easy on the mushrooms that bruise blue brother.
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Botha Boy
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Botha Boy »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:02 pm
AlanBengio wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:43 am

Here is the problem with a single number IFR. It does not take into account the age brackets of the population. New York could well have a higher overall IFR, because they have a greater number of elderly and infirmed than say Delhi. That would definitely skew the data.

According to the CDC the IFR worst case for anyone under 50 is 0.02%. That is 25 times lower than your 0.5% number when comparing it to flu.
Over 50 and 70 it is 0.5% which is your number, but over 70 and this thing is fvcking super deadly at 5.4%. 1 in 20 people over the age of 70 will die from this fvcking thing if they contract it. If that figure hasn't mobilised all sorts of systems and processes in countries to protect their elderly then those politicians and public health officials should be up on criminal charges.
So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
This is not what happened there (and if this is what the media reported over there about this episode - then I will not believe anything Swedish related in Covid).
For that episode, there was a risk matrix implemented where - in relation to occurred events, measures had to be triggered.
The risk matrix was based obviously on past statistics and measures to be implemented did not have to be “assessed” - ie an event occurred: the measure had to be implemented.
It was previewed that, in relation to those events, to trigger an high risk response after a number of earthquakes of certain magnitude happened.
Those events happened - and the people responsible to trigger the consequent high risk scenario failed to trigger it (because it was later assessed they were not actually at their workplace).
But then this defense line of “nobody can predict earthquakes” struck in foreign countries... :? :?
Never knew why.
I think it is all related to the “my dick is longer than you” reasoning in the end.
Which is very similar in the end to the Covid / Swedish case (they claim victory even if infections rates are higher than Italy, and dead cases are equal.... victory where)
Take it easy on the mushrooms that bruise blue brother.
Ika, be nice, he has clearly suffered in this period ... read above ...
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Muttonbirds »

Eighty researchers have now penned an open letter for medical journal The Lancet, saying it's impossible to control the spread through younger populations and protect the older and more vulnerable. COVID-19 overwhelmingly kills the elderly, but can also be fatal in younger people and lead to long-term sickness.

"Effective measures that suppress and control transmission need to be implemented widely, and they must be supported by financial and social programmes that encourage community responses and address the inequities that have been amplified by the pandemic," the experts say.

"The evidence is very clear: controlling community spread of COVID-19 is the best way to protect our societies and economies until safe and effective vaccines and therapeutics arrive within the coming months," the experts say. "We cannot afford distractions that undermine an effective response; it is essential that we act urgently based on the evidence."
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/20 ... perts.html
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

eldanielfire wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:28 am
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
But whose ignoring it? Every European government, possibly every government globally, including Sweden, is taking measures against the Coronavirus. What those measures are varies. SOme feel lockdowns are only delaying the inevitable spread of the virus with no Vaccine. Many authorities are also working with the certainty Lockdown measures, designed to limit the spread of COVID, also have an impact on the general publics health and are attempting to take measures to mitigate those factors as well. Some believe, with evidence to back it up, that the economic damage if the measures could out weight the overall impact of COVID in the long term.

The sad truth is sometimes these measures clash with each other. To claim there is a definite and clear path forward that must be followed or you are culpable in purposely allowing people to die is frankly total crap.
Perhaps I was being too pedantic or not pedantic enough.


With the data that we now have, I am assuming most nations have already upped the monitoring and protections protocols at care homes for the elderly and infirmed. Many of the 'yay for lockdown' crew are saying this simply isn't possible, that you cannot protect the elderly. My read on it is that these protective measures are already in place and improving. Evidence of this is the rise in infections without the same rate of rise in deaths. This is because we are in fact able to protect most of our vulnerable citizens. It is possible because it is happening.

However if they didn't put those additional protective measures in place to shield the most vulnerable and instead they chose to simply treat everyone equally, and they have the data, then why shouldn't they be held to account?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by UncleFB »

Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:43 am

Here is the problem with a single number IFR. It does not take into account the age brackets of the population. New York could well have a higher overall IFR, because they have a greater number of elderly and infirmed than say Delhi. That would definitely skew the data.

According to the CDC the IFR worst case for anyone under 50 is 0.02%. That is 25 times lower than your 0.5% number when comparing it to flu.
Over 50 and 70 it is 0.5% which is your number, but over 70 and this thing is fvcking super deadly at 5.4%. 1 in 20 people over the age of 70 will die from this fvcking thing if they contract it. If that figure hasn't mobilised all sorts of systems and processes in countries to protect their elderly then those politicians and public health officials should be up on criminal charges.
So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
I agree. I was using that comment to highlight the ridiculousness of the comment.


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
But your boy from Sweden did know and has admitted he got protecting their vulnerable wrong. String him up?
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:52 pm
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:46 am
So, since this a thread about Sweden, and the Swedish health official in charge admitted that did not do enough to protect their elderly when implementing the "Swedish" method, do you think he should be up on criminal charges?
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
I agree. I was using that comment to highlight the ridiculousness of the comment.


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
But your boy from Sweden did know and has admitted he got protecting their vulnerable wrong. String him up?
If he knew what the IFR for those over 70 years of age was (it will kill 1 in every 20 in this age bracket) and did nothing about it then yes. He is culpable.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Clogs wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:17 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:52 pm
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:57 am
I realise you didn't suggest it first, but that is obviously a ridiculous thing to say.

Reminds me of the Italians putting up a bunch of seismologists for manslaughter for failing to predict the earthquakes there in 2009 or whatever. :lol: That is not how science works.
I agree. I was using that comment to highlight the ridiculousness of the comment.


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
But your boy from Sweden did know and has admitted he got protecting their vulnerable wrong. String him up?
If he knew what the IFR for those over 70 years of age was (it will kill 1 in every 20 in this age bracket) and did nothing about it then yes. He is culpable.
I don't think he "knew" anything and did anything maliciously. He said some time ago that Sweden made mistakes with their handling of nursing homes, which was self-evident anyway. I can't remember the exact details but it was something about the actual staff working there not isolating with the patients or something. I dunno. Anyway, the nursing homes in Sweden got hit really hard.
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:27 am
Clogs wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:17 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:52 pm
Clogs wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:13 am
UncleFB wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:03 am
I agree. I was using that comment to highlight the ridiculousness of the comment.


My point was more we didn't really know much back then, and everyone was taking a bit of a guess, but we certainly know more now. And what we now know with greater certainty is this thing is deadly if you are over 70 and have other serious health conditions. Ignore that data now and you should be culpable. Absolutely. Or do you disagree?
But your boy from Sweden did know and has admitted he got protecting their vulnerable wrong. String him up?
If he knew what the IFR for those over 70 years of age was (it will kill 1 in every 20 in this age bracket) and did nothing about it then yes. He is culpable.
I don't think he "knew" anything and did anything maliciously. He said some time ago that Sweden made mistakes with their handling of nursing homes, which was self-evident anyway. I can't remember the exact details but it was something about the actual staff working there not isolating with the patients or something. I dunno. Anyway, the nursing homes in Sweden got hit really hard.

I think it would have been very difficult back then to know what the IFR for those over 70 is.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Muttonbirds »

Massive about face from Sweden but they still can't bring themselves to admit it. It seems pride is a major issue for Swedes.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid- ... PTSIL63B4/
towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Muttonbirds wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 am Massive about face from Sweden but they still can't bring themselves to admit it. It seems pride is a major issue for Swedes.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid- ... PTSIL63B4/
The Swedes seem pretty open to me, though I read Swedish news about Sweden and not NZ’s version, so maybe you guys detected a different message.

Regardless, the new ‘rules’ won’t do much. Sweden is about to get smashed by Covid. Not saying it’s not the right thing to do, but one way or another, I think we will soon be finding out what the magic number is when it comes to herd immunity.

- no one wears a mask
- old people still go out socializing and babysit their grandkids
- gyms and bars still open

I reckon will all have it by Xmas.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by deadduck »

Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
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CM11
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

The NZ guy seems fairly biased. Sweden are doing as you'd expect and their ICU numbers are not in any way out of control, yet.
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Clogs
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Clogs »

Click bait?
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Blackrock Bullet
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

So shops, public transport etc are told to reduce numbers and that's "regions have been effectively locked down".

"Devastating second wave". 7 day average of 2 deaths a day in a country of 10 million?

The Kiwis really want that world champs crown, cringe. :P
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

CM11 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:14 am The NZ guy seems fairly biased. Sweden are doing as you'd expect and their ICU numbers are not in any way out of control, yet.
Wait. I’m not saying they’re doing the wrong thing, but we are going to be digging some holes soon.
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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by eldanielfire »

deadduck wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
Well Sweden does have roughly double the population of the other too. The question is why is Norway is better than Denmark as well as why is Denmark competitively worse than Sweden?

The main difference I see is Denmark is much smaller with a much denser population.
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MungoMan
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by MungoMan »

Belgium


11.6M people, 10,500 dead from covid-19

Sweden

10.1M people, 5,900 dead from covid-19

Would somebody remind me why we keep talking about Sweden? Oh yeah that's right, it's only fair to compare them to nearby countries that have experienced fewer deaths rather than more. Or countries once ruled by the Vasa family or whose language is part of the Old North German grouping. Because reasons.

AFAIK, the coronavirus cares not.one.fúck. about N. Euro dynastic politics or linguistics.

And for avoidance of doubt: I'm neither defending nor condemning the Swedish approach to the pandemic. But by fúck I am tired of reading about how dreadful the situation is in Sweden when nearby > 20M nations like Belgium and The Netherlands both have a significantly larger death toll.

Whenever I read this I wonder if there is another agenda in play, or is it merely lazy repetition?
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Blackrock Bullet
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

MungoMan wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:24 am Belgium


11.6M people, 10,500 dead from covid-19

Sweden

10.1M people, 5,900 dead from covid-19

Would somebody remind me why we keep talking about Sweden? Oh yeah that's right, it's only fair to compare them to nearby countries that have experienced fewer deaths rather than more. Or countries once ruled by the Vasa family or whose language is part of the Old North German grouping. Because reasons.

AFAIK, the coronavirus cares not.one.fúck. about N. Euro dynastic politics or linguistics.

And for avoidance of doubt: I'm neither defending nor condemning the Swedish approach to the pandemic. But by fúck I am tired of reading about how dreadful the situation is in Sweden when nearby > 20M nations like Belgium and The Netherlands both have a significantly larger death toll.

Whenever I read this I wonder if there is another agenda in play, or is it merely lazy repetition?
Yup, or they could talk about Spain vs. Portugal.

Spain: 735 deaths per million
Portugal: 219 deaths per million

The Spanish basically locked children indoors for one month to try and stop it.

I don't understand why there is this reluctance to learn from other countries. You take Norway for example, they could have just sat back and said they were brilliant - but they admitted mistakes and what they'd do differently.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Ali's Choice »

It's not how 'hard' the lockdown is, it's how early the restrictions are enacted. Many countries went hard, but far too late and the virus was already widely spread throughout the populace.
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MungoMan
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by MungoMan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:41 am It's not how 'hard' the lockdown is, it's how early the restrictions are enacted. Many countries went hard, but far too late and the virus was already widely spread throughout the populace.
Gates and bolting horses springs to mind
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eldanielfire
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by eldanielfire »

MungoMan wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:24 am Belgium


11.6M people, 10,500 dead from covid-19

Sweden

10.1M people, 5,900 dead from covid-19

Would somebody remind me why we keep talking about Sweden? Oh yeah that's right, it's only fair to compare them to nearby countries that have experienced fewer deaths rather than more. Or countries once ruled by the Vasa family or whose language is part of the Old North German grouping. Because reasons.

AFAIK, the coronavirus cares not.one.fúck. about N. Euro dynastic politics or linguistics.

And for avoidance of doubt: I'm neither defending nor condemning the Swedish approach to the pandemic. But by fúck I am tired of reading about how dreadful the situation is in Sweden when nearby > 20M nations like Belgium and The Netherlands both have a significantly larger death toll.

Whenever I read this I wonder if there is another agenda in play, or is it merely lazy repetition?

I much agree here. The obvious interest in Sweden is the whole "they didn't lockdown" angle, which sadly many in the media are making it a "I said this......about Sweden's non-lockdown, therefore I win" thing. Which is too much of media commentary in this day and age. It's not about the truth or what we can learn, it's about being right and the political angle.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Muttonbirds »

New Zealand's Covid response was and still is attacked by 'economy first, health second' pandemic-deniers using Sweden's supposed lockdown-free approach as a weapon.

Perhaps this explains why we'd like to see evidence Sweden's approach is better rather than Tegnell and co. declaring themselves winners.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

deadduck wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
Which comparable European countries had harsher restrictions than Sweden. Most went from lock-down to party-time, while Sweden has kept up a similar approach from the start. Now Sweden is thinking about adopting stricter measures because their metrics have reached a threshold. Many of the other counties don’t seem to be using science or data at all. It’s more based around populism and trying to match public sentiment.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:55 pm
deadduck wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
Which comparable European countries had harsher restrictions than Sweden. Most went from lock-down to party-time, while Sweden has kept up a similar approach from the start. Now Sweden is thinking about adopting stricter measures because their metrics have reached a threshold. Many of the other counties don’t seem to be using science or data at all. It’s more based around populism and trying to match public sentiment.

Austria
Germany
Switzerland
Holland
Belgium
Greece
Bulgaria
Uk
Ireland
France
Italy
Spain


Etc etc.
towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:04 pm
towny wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:55 pm
deadduck wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
Which comparable European countries had harsher restrictions than Sweden. Most went from lock-down to party-time, while Sweden has kept up a similar approach from the start. Now Sweden is thinking about adopting stricter measures because their metrics have reached a threshold. Many of the other counties don’t seem to be using science or data at all. It’s more based around populism and trying to match public sentiment.

Austria
Germany
Switzerland
Holland
Belgium
Greece
Bulgaria
Uk
Ireland
France
Italy
Spain


Etc etc.
Sure. Firstly, in what way is the UK comparable? One is a rich, clean country with low density and the other is..... well, not that. Also, Sweden hasn’t really had an airport open for 6 months while Poms were packing into discount carriers to go to Europe’s shitest summer towns. England would have 200 times per capita the number of bars and pubs. Swedes don’t have the same social scene. Sweden doesn’t have 1m self-employed contractors that need to work to eat.
So.... not comparable in any way.


Spain? Comparable? You may have well as said ‘the sun’.
Last edited by towny on Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Double up
Last edited by towny on Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bimboman
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by bimboman »

towny wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:08 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:04 pm
towny wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:55 pm
deadduck wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
Which comparable European countries had harsher restrictions than Sweden. Most went from lock-down to party-time, while Sweden has kept up a similar approach from the start. Now Sweden is thinking about adopting stricter measures because their metrics have reached a threshold. Many of the other counties don’t seem to be using science or data at all. It’s more based around populism and trying to match public sentiment.

Austria
Germany
Switzerland
Holland
Belgium
Greece
Bulgaria
Uk
Ireland
France
Italy
Spain


Etc etc.
Sure. Firstly, in what way is the UK comparable? One is a rich, clean country with low density and the other is..... well, not that. Also, Sweden hasn’t really had an airport open for 6 months while Poms were packing into discount carriers to go to Europe’s shitest summer towns.

Spain? Comparable? You may have well as said ‘the sun’.


Can’t we just agree your statement is a load of old shit? And you followed it up with even more...

https://www.flysas.com/gb-en/lowpriceca ... lsrc=aw.ds
Last edited by bimboman on Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

bimboman wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:11 pm
towny wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:08 pm
bimboman wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:04 pm
towny wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:55 pm
deadduck wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am Looking at cases in the last 14 days, Sweden is not faring much worse than many other European countries that had harsher containment measures. Its extremely odd how the media here report so harshly on the current wave in Sweden there but aren't doing the same for Denmark where the resurgence is even worse than their initial peak.

For something as infectious as covid-19, the difference in magnitude between 2000 new cases in Norway, 6000 new cases in Denmark and 9000 new cases in Sweden is not that significant considering their population differences.
Which comparable European countries had harsher restrictions than Sweden. Most went from lock-down to party-time, while Sweden has kept up a similar approach from the start. Now Sweden is thinking about adopting stricter measures because their metrics have reached a threshold. Many of the other counties don’t seem to be using science or data at all. It’s more based around populism and trying to match public sentiment.

Austria
Germany
Switzerland
Holland
Belgium
Greece
Bulgaria
Uk
Ireland
France
Italy
Spain


Etc etc.
Sure. Firstly, in what way is the UK comparable? One is a rich, clean country with low density and the other is..... well, not that. Also, Sweden hasn’t really had an airport open for 6 months while Poms were packing into discount carriers to go to Europe’s shitest summer towns.

Spain? Comparable? You may have well as said ‘the sun’.


Can’t we just agree your statement is a load of old shit?
You don’t know your arse from your elbow on any topic.
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