It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:36 am
mabunch78 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:20 am
bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:57 amThe NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
Swallowing the koolade again? The NHS does more with less when compared with public health systems in equivalent economies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ca ... ed_Kingdom) but over time this has obviously eroded its resilience.
The NHS is fantastic and any corrosion of that institution is virtually a direct result of conservative politics. If you took everything that Bimbot typed on this forum and just blindly said the exact opposite thing, you'd actually be right the overwhelming majority of the time. It's a good strategy if you have no idea what's going on but you want to look knowledgable and smart anyway: just say the opposite thing to Bimbot.
I’ll take the Oz medical system over the NHS or this Swedish shit fight anyday.
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towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

CM11 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 pm
towny wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:44 pm
CM11 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 pm Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
Really? I heard in March that it was to buy the health system’s supply chain time to ramp up. I guess the rationale changed some time....
Your statement is not mutually exclusive from mine.

The rationale in March was to avoid being overwhelmed. The benefit now is that we can deal with it better and save more lives. Sweden didn't need full lockdown to avoid being overwhelmed (arguments the same might have applied elsewhere) and arguably people died there who wouldn't today.
I’ll go with that.

It’s summer now, but things are going to get real dicey by November or so. My tip is to stay off the trains and buses, though it’s not easy for many to do so.
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towny
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by towny »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:45 pm
jezzer wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:43 pm Never lived there but have a couple of friends there now. They say that social isolation is practically the norm in Sweden and a big issue. Kids leave the nest and barely look back. Couples who live in their own separate gaffs etc etc.

Might this be a big enabler for Sweden's strategy, something that wouldn't work in a Latin culture where I live now, as everyone lives for hanging out with friends and family, young and old.
I'd be shocked if that were not a major factor.
Yep.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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MrJonno wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:09 pm
Clogs wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:35 am https://principia-scientific.com/sweden ... -victory/?


Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory


Published on September 8, 2020

Written by Steve Watson


As the rest of Europe and the world remains under the grip of draconian rules and the threat of new lockdowns, Sweden, which allowed its citizens to remain free throughout the entire pandemic, has pretty much declared victory over the coronavirus.

The country now has one of the lowest infection rates on the planet, and it’s difficult not to admire how it has handled the past year, with no strict lockdown or compulsory face mask rules. All businesses, schools and public places remained open in Sweden for the duration.

“Sweden Has Gone From Being The Country With The Most Infections In Europe To The Safest One,” Sweden’s Senior Epidemiologist Dr. Anders Tegnell Commented To Italian Newspaper Corriere Della Sera.
“What we see now is that the sustainable policy might be slower in getting results, but it will get results eventually,” Tegnell clarified. “And then we also hope that the result will be more stable,” he added.


Tegnell previously warned that encouraging people to wear face masks is “very dangerous” because it gives a false sense of security but does not effectively stem the spread of the virus.

“The findings that have been produced through face masks are astonishingly weak, even though so many people around the world wear them,” Tengell has urged.

Last week, the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control confirmed Sweden’s drop in infection rate, with only 12 cases per million, compared to 18 in neighbouring Denmark and 14 in nearby Norway.

At the peak of the Sweden’s outbreak, it was seeing 108 new infections per million people, as it pursued a “herd immunity” strategy.

The figures also show that out of 2500 randomly selected and tested people in Sweden, none tested positive, compared to 0.9 percent positive in April, and 0.3 percent in May.

“We interpret this as meaning there is not currently a widespread infection among people who do not have symptoms,” said Karin Tegmark, deputy head of the Public Health Agency of Sweden.

When compared to the rest of Europe, Sweden’s death rate sits somewhere in the middle. However, officials are confident that playing the long game will see this improve drastically.

Read more at summit.news
So advocating face masks gives a false sense of security but doing nothing and telling people not to do anything differently doesn't. How does that work?
It reckon I’ve seen 5 people wear face masks the whole time. I’m sure they work, but in my experience few are wearing them. Maybe it’s different in the big cities.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

towny wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:15 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:36 am
mabunch78 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:20 am
bimboman wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:57 amThe NHS is chronic, but it has nothing to do with funding. You may have noticed there’s been no shortage of printed cash to support the efforts. It’s just that the politicians and the NHS aren’t very good.
Swallowing the koolade again? The NHS does more with less when compared with public health systems in equivalent economies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ca ... ed_Kingdom) but over time this has obviously eroded its resilience.
The NHS is fantastic and any corrosion of that institution is virtually a direct result of conservative politics. If you took everything that Bimbot typed on this forum and just blindly said the exact opposite thing, you'd actually be right the overwhelming majority of the time. It's a good strategy if you have no idea what's going on but you want to look knowledgable and smart anyway: just say the opposite thing to Bimbot.
I’ll take the Oz medical system over the NHS or this Swedish shit fight anyday.
The Swedish system is hugely over-rated for sure. I think it's good if you're really, really sick. If it's anything else, it's shit. The hospitals look like something from an Eastern Block ex-Soviet country, it takes a month to see a doctor unless you're literally having a heart attack, and it's no cheaper than back home. I had to go to emergency once here and I was waiting for literally eight hours.

The best medical system I've ever experienced was in France. I smashed my tooth in half when I was back-packing there and figured that was the end of my travels ... I'd have to use all my holiday funds to fly home and fix it. Ended up in a French dentist who fixed it for 25 euros - apparently I was somehow covered there regardless of not being a French citizen. She was hot too. She did what she described as a job that would hold together until I could get it fixed properly. Seven years and counting...
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Muttonbirds »

This Australian living in Sweden thinks their response has been a failure and the Swedes just don't want to admit it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12364015
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

"In Sweden it's estimated there are over 150,000 people who have been ill with Covid-19 symptoms now for more than 10 weeks.
This stands out. I'd like a source on that.

I do know one person there that fits that bill but 150k seems rather large.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Adding a bit of balance

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... 1599762338
Covid 19 coronavirus: Aussie health expert in Sweden reveals truth about so-called 'success story'
11 Sep, 2020 5:27am 6 minutes to read
Play VideoIn Sweden, the government is taking a very different approach to other countries - people are continuing to go outside, travel to work and meet with friends and family. Video / Sky News / Getty
news.com.au
On Swedish National Day in June, Australian man David Steadson raised a flag half mast outside his countryside home two hours north of Stockholm.

He did so to honour the more than 5000 Swedes who had died from coronavirus since the country's leaders decided to go it alone with a strategy that has since polarised experts around the world.

But when locals wandered past Steadson's front yard, they asked him: "Who died?"

The response still resonates with the former public health researcher from the University of Queensland who has called Sweden home for 20 years.

The deliberate ignorance sits heavy on his chest, like the virus he has been fighting since March.

Some days it feels like "someone is strangling me", he says. He stays awake until the small hours of the morning when his body is finally "too exhausted to stay awake".

The one-time epidemiologist is "disgusted" at the public health response in Sweden, where more than 85,000 people have contracted the virus and 5800 people have died – but the streets remain jam-packed and masks are few and far between.

He has a message for Australians stuck in lockdown who envy Sweden's freedom: "The Swedish strategy is not a success; it is a failure."

'Pandemic not close to over'
The warning comes as Sweden has registered its lowest rate of positive tests in months, even after a dramatic expansion of the testing regime.

In the past week just 1.3 per cent of tests showed Covid-19 cases, compared to more than 19 per cent at the pandemic's peak. The number is lower than in neighbouring Norway and Denmark.

Public heath chief Johan Carlson told The Times this week that Swedes seemed to be benefiting from the approach.

"Our strategy was consistent and sustainable," Professor Carlson said. "We probably have a lower risk of [the virus] spreading than other countries."

But Steadson said the degree of autonomy afforded to Swedes allowed "confusion and inertia" to rein, as restrictions such as mask wearing and social distancing were voluntary rather than legally enforced.

Leaders relied on the goodwill and co-operation of the people to work from home, stay home if unwell, avoid public transport, funerals, parties and weddings and wash their hands.

"Allowing a deadly virus to just spread in the hope of eventual 'herd immunity' made no sense to me scientifically, given our then limited knowledge, and it absolutely made no sense to my ethically," he told news.com.au.

"People would die unnecessarily, and I was frankly disgusted with what I was hearing from the Swedish Public Health Authority."

In March, with Sweden's borders wide open and testing and screening basically non-existent, the country's Public Health Authority insisted everything was fine.

"A week later, my whole family was ill with symptoms of Covid-19," Steadson says.

"We all recovered within a couple of weeks, then a couple of weeks after that, I fell ill again. I am still ill."

The Swedish strategy, Steadson says, relied on two false assumptions – that the virus could be stopped and that it was not as deadly as feared.

According to New Scientist, Sweden's rate of infection is 8200 per million people (Australia's is around 1000 per million) with a death rate of 57 deaths per 100,000 people, compared with just five in Norway and 11 in Denmark. Australia's current deaths per 100,000 people is 3.1.

Steadson says the pandemic in Sweden is not close to being over.

"In the past two weeks people have been returning to schools and work, and we continue to have 1000 to 2000 new cases a week," Steadson says.

"The numbers have started to trend up again, and it's my expectation they will continue to move up as we move in to autumn and winter. The pandemic is not even close to over in Sweden."

'I was told not to see a doctor'
The former University of Queensland academic says that more than five months after becoming infected, he is improving week-to-week but still has days "where I feel as if someone is strangling me and I can't breathe properly".

"The last three days I've had an inflamed and painful digestive tract. And sleeping? Forget it.

"In Sweden it's estimated there are over 150,000 people who have been ill with Covid-19 symptoms now for more than 10 weeks. I am one of them. For many weeks I had blood oxygen levels that under normal circumstances would trigger a clinical assessment of supplemental oxygen."

When he first became ill, the advice from doctors was to stay away.

"Having suspected I had Covid-19, I was told not to even go to the doctor for fear of infecting health staff," he says.

Steadson says what is perhaps even more concerning is the portrayal of the virus in Sweden's media.

"Media outlets seem more concerned with protecting Sweden's image than they do in reporting the facts, and challenging the authorities over some of the frankly outrageous statements they make is left almost entirely to foreign journalists," he says.

Swedish model would be a disaster in Australia
Dr Nick Talley is editor-in-chief of the Medical Journal of Australia. He says the Swedish model has been a failure.

"In my view, the Swedish model has not been a success, at least to date," he told news.com.au.

"One clear goal at least early on was reach herd immunity – but this was not achieved, not even close, and this was arguably predictable.

"There were restrictions put in place but the philosophy was voluntary rather than compulsory. There is evidence there was a major impact of this voluntary lockdown on behaviour as reflected in, for example, reduced mobility and spending. However the spread of Covid-19 and the death rate was substantially higher in Sweden compared with its neighbours who mandated lockdowns.

"A major contributor to the failure of the voluntary approach was spread of infection into homes for the elderly. Young people also appear to have been the least likely to alter their behaviour which may have contributed to community spread.

"Notably the economy was not saved from contraction by the approach. I am not convinced the Swedish model would be any more successful here in Australia, and arguably if compliance with voluntary recommendations was lower, the results would be worse – look at mask use in Sydney which is voluntary but has been strongly recommended."
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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^ The dangers of having someone on ignore.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by RandomNavigat0r »

I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
I would be interested to know your thoughts on the haka?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Enzedder »

RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.
We would rather that you are too.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by RandomNavigat0r »

Clogs wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:21 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
I would be interested to know your thoughts on the haka?
I like the HAKA , it's great. Anyone who doesn't like it should STFU
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by koroke hangareka »

towny wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:45 pm
MrJonno wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:09 pm
Clogs wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:35 am https://principia-scientific.com/sweden ... -victory/?


Sweden, With No Lockdown Or Masks, Claims COVID-19 Victory


Published on September 8, 2020

Written by Steve Watson


As the rest of Europe and the world remains under the grip of draconian rules and the threat of new lockdowns, Sweden, which allowed its citizens to remain free throughout the entire pandemic, has pretty much declared victory over the coronavirus.

The country now has one of the lowest infection rates on the planet, and it’s difficult not to admire how it has handled the past year, with no strict lockdown or compulsory face mask rules. All businesses, schools and public places remained open in Sweden for the duration.

“Sweden Has Gone From Being The Country With The Most Infections In Europe To The Safest One,” Sweden’s Senior Epidemiologist Dr. Anders Tegnell Commented To Italian Newspaper Corriere Della Sera.
“What we see now is that the sustainable policy might be slower in getting results, but it will get results eventually,” Tegnell clarified. “And then we also hope that the result will be more stable,” he added.


Tegnell previously warned that encouraging people to wear face masks is “very dangerous” because it gives a false sense of security but does not effectively stem the spread of the virus.

“The findings that have been produced through face masks are astonishingly weak, even though so many people around the world wear them,” Tengell has urged.

Last week, the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control confirmed Sweden’s drop in infection rate, with only 12 cases per million, compared to 18 in neighbouring Denmark and 14 in nearby Norway.

At the peak of the Sweden’s outbreak, it was seeing 108 new infections per million people, as it pursued a “herd immunity” strategy.

The figures also show that out of 2500 randomly selected and tested people in Sweden, none tested positive, compared to 0.9 percent positive in April, and 0.3 percent in May.

“We interpret this as meaning there is not currently a widespread infection among people who do not have symptoms,” said Karin Tegmark, deputy head of the Public Health Agency of Sweden.

When compared to the rest of Europe, Sweden’s death rate sits somewhere in the middle. However, officials are confident that playing the long game will see this improve drastically.

Read more at summit.news
So advocating face masks gives a false sense of security but doing nothing and telling people not to do anything differently doesn't. How does that work?
It reckon I’ve seen 5 people wear face masks the whole time. I’m sure they work, but in my experience few are wearing them. Maybe it’s different in the big cities.
He's quite right that there isn't strong evidence that masks slow the progress of the virus, but where is the evidence that they give a false sense of security? He's not taking a coherent position.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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towny wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:18 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 pm Mog, the most important gain from lockdown (if it did, in fact, reduce deaths) was learning more about the virus and what treatment worked. So you might be pushing a problem down the line but you're better able to deal with that problem when it re-emerges.
Really? I heard in March that it was to buy the health system’s supply chain time to ramp up. I guess the rationale changed some time....
Come on towny it didn't change that was just obvious
Anonymous 1 wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:27 pm Flu vaccines give you protection against 3 or 4 strains of flu. I see no reason why over time we won't see the same with this virus. Plus the lock downs are giving the world time to develop treatments that may prevent many people needing to go onto a ventilator.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
NZ is massively protectionist - not a true free-market economy. Big government subsidies for their industry 'winners'. But their tabloids are always ready to condemn a similar approach from larger trading partners... :roll:
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
It hardly matters what there plan was, arguable as that is, the end results is what they are measuring themselves by and what other's should. So Enz's comment is perfectly reasonable on that basis.

f**king filthy stooly.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by RandomNavigat0r »

mabunch78 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
NZ is massively protectionist - not a true free-market economy. Big government subsidies for their industry 'winners'. But their tabloids are always ready to condemn a similar approach from larger trading partners... :roll:
The place is basically an experiment on how to govern a police state and brainwash a countries citizens. Beautiful place but a political fuckup.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by BlackMac »

I recall people declaring the same about Scotland just over a month ago and predicting we would be the first country in Europe to be Covid free. Thats not exactly gone to prediction. :(
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

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Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
It hardly matters what there plan was, arguable as that is, the end results is what they are measuring themselves by and what other's should. So Enz's comment is perfectly reasonable on that basis.

f**king filthy stooly.
I'll post it again
One point would be to keep schools open to reach herd immunity faster,” Tegnell commented. Salminen replied that the Finnish health agency had considered this but rejected it because “over time, the children are still going to spread the infection” to other age groups.

Finland’s modelling suggested closing schools would reduce the spread of Covid-19 among elderly people by about 10%, Salminen said in the email. Tegnell replied: “10% might be worth it?
Sweden kept schools open for under 16's
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Enzedder wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:14 pm Adding a bit of balance

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... 1599762338
Covid 19 coronavirus: Aussie health expert in Sweden reveals truth about so-called 'success story'
11 Sep, 2020 5:27am 6 minutes to read
Play VideoIn Sweden, the government is taking a very different approach to other countries - people are continuing to go outside, travel to work and meet with friends and family. Video / Sky News / Getty
news.com.au
On Swedish National Day in June, Australian man David Steadson raised a flag half mast outside his countryside home two hours north of Stockholm.

He did so to honour the more than 5000 Swedes who had died from coronavirus since the country's leaders decided to go it alone with a strategy that has since polarised experts around the world.

But when locals wandered past Steadson's front yard, they asked him: "Who died?"

The response still resonates with the former public health researcher from the University of Queensland who has called Sweden home for 20 years.

The deliberate ignorance sits heavy on his chest, like the virus he has been fighting since March.

Some days it feels like "someone is strangling me", he says. He stays awake until the small hours of the morning when his body is finally "too exhausted to stay awake".

The one-time epidemiologist is "disgusted" at the public health response in Sweden, where more than 85,000 people have contracted the virus and 5800 people have died – but the streets remain jam-packed and masks are few and far between.

He has a message for Australians stuck in lockdown who envy Sweden's freedom: "The Swedish strategy is not a success; it is a failure."

'Pandemic not close to over'
The warning comes as Sweden has registered its lowest rate of positive tests in months, even after a dramatic expansion of the testing regime.

In the past week just 1.3 per cent of tests showed Covid-19 cases, compared to more than 19 per cent at the pandemic's peak. The number is lower than in neighbouring Norway and Denmark.

Public heath chief Johan Carlson told The Times this week that Swedes seemed to be benefiting from the approach.

"Our strategy was consistent and sustainable," Professor Carlson said. "We probably have a lower risk of [the virus] spreading than other countries."

But Steadson said the degree of autonomy afforded to Swedes allowed "confusion and inertia" to rein, as restrictions such as mask wearing and social distancing were voluntary rather than legally enforced.

Leaders relied on the goodwill and co-operation of the people to work from home, stay home if unwell, avoid public transport, funerals, parties and weddings and wash their hands.

"Allowing a deadly virus to just spread in the hope of eventual 'herd immunity' made no sense to me scientifically, given our then limited knowledge, and it absolutely made no sense to my ethically," he told news.com.au.

"People would die unnecessarily, and I was frankly disgusted with what I was hearing from the Swedish Public Health Authority."

In March, with Sweden's borders wide open and testing and screening basically non-existent, the country's Public Health Authority insisted everything was fine.

"A week later, my whole family was ill with symptoms of Covid-19," Steadson says.

"We all recovered within a couple of weeks, then a couple of weeks after that, I fell ill again. I am still ill."

The Swedish strategy, Steadson says, relied on two false assumptions – that the virus could be stopped and that it was not as deadly as feared.

According to New Scientist, Sweden's rate of infection is 8200 per million people (Australia's is around 1000 per million) with a death rate of 57 deaths per 100,000 people, compared with just five in Norway and 11 in Denmark. Australia's current deaths per 100,000 people is 3.1.

Steadson says the pandemic in Sweden is not close to being over.

"In the past two weeks people have been returning to schools and work, and we continue to have 1000 to 2000 new cases a week," Steadson says.

"The numbers have started to trend up again, and it's my expectation they will continue to move up as we move in to autumn and winter. The pandemic is not even close to over in Sweden."

'I was told not to see a doctor'
The former University of Queensland academic says that more than five months after becoming infected, he is improving week-to-week but still has days "where I feel as if someone is strangling me and I can't breathe properly".

"The last three days I've had an inflamed and painful digestive tract. And sleeping? Forget it.

"In Sweden it's estimated there are over 150,000 people who have been ill with Covid-19 symptoms now for more than 10 weeks. I am one of them. For many weeks I had blood oxygen levels that under normal circumstances would trigger a clinical assessment of supplemental oxygen."

When he first became ill, the advice from doctors was to stay away.

"Having suspected I had Covid-19, I was told not to even go to the doctor for fear of infecting health staff," he says.

Steadson says what is perhaps even more concerning is the portrayal of the virus in Sweden's media.

"Media outlets seem more concerned with protecting Sweden's image than they do in reporting the facts, and challenging the authorities over some of the frankly outrageous statements they make is left almost entirely to foreign journalists," he says.

Swedish model would be a disaster in Australia
Dr Nick Talley is editor-in-chief of the Medical Journal of Australia. He says the Swedish model has been a failure.

"In my view, the Swedish model has not been a success, at least to date," he told news.com.au.

"One clear goal at least early on was reach herd immunity – but this was not achieved, not even close, and this was arguably predictable.

"There were restrictions put in place but the philosophy was voluntary rather than compulsory. There is evidence there was a major impact of this voluntary lockdown on behaviour as reflected in, for example, reduced mobility and spending. However the spread of Covid-19 and the death rate was substantially higher in Sweden compared with its neighbours who mandated lockdowns.

"A major contributor to the failure of the voluntary approach was spread of infection into homes for the elderly. Young people also appear to have been the least likely to alter their behaviour which may have contributed to community spread.

"Notably the economy was not saved from contraction by the approach. I am not convinced the Swedish model would be any more successful here in Australia, and arguably if compliance with voluntary recommendations was lower, the results would be worse – look at mask use in Sydney which is voluntary but has been strongly recommended."
Foreigners heaping shit on Sweden is becoming a sport. Like coronavirus is some kind of nationalistic competition which is retarded. The Swedes made a call and stuck with it. Maybe history will prove them wrong, maybe it will prove them right. Its categorically too early to make that call and quite frankly this kind of reporting reeks.

The fact that nations are ruled and owned largely by old men - the most vulnerable group - may explain the tremendous economic and social upheaval they're prepared to endure to contain covid.

But when it comes to an infinitely worse problem - impending ecological meltdown - they say we can't afford it, nar, it's all bullshit anyway, what would those scientists know anyway. We'll be dead or demented in 20 years time, so who cares?

The Swedes are very rational. They made a call on what they believe is a realistic and measured response that would result in the greatest net benefit for society and they stuck with it. I applaud them. Not irrelevant is the fact they also lead the world when it comes to ecological protection and conservation.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

Muttonbirds wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:23 pm This Australian living in Sweden thinks their response has been a failure and the Swedes just don't want to admit it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12364015
Whether you agree or disagree with the strategy, it really shows up how small time so many countries are. NZ media looking everywhere for stories on what a failure the Swedish strategy is, only NZ can be the Covid-19 World Champs and that's that.

Ireland would be the same. I doubt they give much of a crap in Sweden.
Last edited by Blackrock Bullet on Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Would have thought someone living in the country for 20 years would be qualified to speak as a local as opposed to just being described as a 'foreigner'.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by MungoMan »

RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:34 am
mabunch78 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
NZ is massively protectionist - not a true free-market economy. Big government subsidies for their industry 'winners'. But their tabloids are always ready to condemn a similar approach from larger trading partners... :roll:
The place is basically an experiment on how to govern a police state and brainwash a countries citizens. Beautiful place but a political fuckup.
If I didn't recognise you from your previous incarnations, I would be dismissing you as a lamer troll / novelly account. But since I do recognise you, you are being dismissed as a genuine fúcken idiot.

To keep this brief, I won't delve into how NZ was a world-leader amongst parliamentary democracies in respect of ushering in market economics at the national level. Look it up yourself. Instead I'll look at one small but very illustrative issue.

You must have noticed the sheer number of signs, placards etc put up by governments (local and state) and private companies either barring or warning from doing this or that lest something awful befall you. Yeah I'm sure you have, being the type of fella who sees Nanny State wherever he looks. But here's the thing: NZ aint like that.

As a for-example, the Wellington waterfront isn't bedecked with signs along the alignment of the non-existent dock railings informing folk there are no dock railings. There are no signs warning that the water may be deeper, shallower, wetter or more watery than it appears, altho' there is the odd one saying don't fish here or don't dive here. Yet if this were Brissie or Perth, legions of sign-makers would have put their kids through private schools purely on the basis of warnings.

The reason is a simple one: in the early 1970s the NZ government brought in an Act effectively striking out a whole bunch of common law torts and replacing them with a government-run accident compensation scheme. Despite multiple changes of government since, that scheme is still in place. And one consequence of this is the comparative rarity of egregiously patronising signs warning of the obvious and forbidding the reasonable.

Yep, Nanny State hell.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by UncleFB »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:32 am
Enzedder wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:14 pm Adding a bit of balance

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... 1599762338
Covid 19 coronavirus: Aussie health expert in Sweden reveals truth about so-called 'success story'
11 Sep, 2020 5:27am 6 minutes to read
Play VideoIn Sweden, the government is taking a very different approach to other countries - people are continuing to go outside, travel to work and meet with friends and family. Video / Sky News / Getty
news.com.au
On Swedish National Day in June, Australian man David Steadson raised a flag half mast outside his countryside home two hours north of Stockholm.

He did so to honour the more than 5000 Swedes who had died from coronavirus since the country's leaders decided to go it alone with a strategy that has since polarised experts around the world.

But when locals wandered past Steadson's front yard, they asked him: "Who died?"

The response still resonates with the former public health researcher from the University of Queensland who has called Sweden home for 20 years.

The deliberate ignorance sits heavy on his chest, like the virus he has been fighting since March.

Some days it feels like "someone is strangling me", he says. He stays awake until the small hours of the morning when his body is finally "too exhausted to stay awake".

The one-time epidemiologist is "disgusted" at the public health response in Sweden, where more than 85,000 people have contracted the virus and 5800 people have died – but the streets remain jam-packed and masks are few and far between.

He has a message for Australians stuck in lockdown who envy Sweden's freedom: "The Swedish strategy is not a success; it is a failure."

'Pandemic not close to over'
The warning comes as Sweden has registered its lowest rate of positive tests in months, even after a dramatic expansion of the testing regime.

In the past week just 1.3 per cent of tests showed Covid-19 cases, compared to more than 19 per cent at the pandemic's peak. The number is lower than in neighbouring Norway and Denmark.

Public heath chief Johan Carlson told The Times this week that Swedes seemed to be benefiting from the approach.

"Our strategy was consistent and sustainable," Professor Carlson said. "We probably have a lower risk of [the virus] spreading than other countries."

But Steadson said the degree of autonomy afforded to Swedes allowed "confusion and inertia" to rein, as restrictions such as mask wearing and social distancing were voluntary rather than legally enforced.

Leaders relied on the goodwill and co-operation of the people to work from home, stay home if unwell, avoid public transport, funerals, parties and weddings and wash their hands.

"Allowing a deadly virus to just spread in the hope of eventual 'herd immunity' made no sense to me scientifically, given our then limited knowledge, and it absolutely made no sense to my ethically," he told news.com.au.

"People would die unnecessarily, and I was frankly disgusted with what I was hearing from the Swedish Public Health Authority."

In March, with Sweden's borders wide open and testing and screening basically non-existent, the country's Public Health Authority insisted everything was fine.

"A week later, my whole family was ill with symptoms of Covid-19," Steadson says.

"We all recovered within a couple of weeks, then a couple of weeks after that, I fell ill again. I am still ill."

The Swedish strategy, Steadson says, relied on two false assumptions – that the virus could be stopped and that it was not as deadly as feared.

According to New Scientist, Sweden's rate of infection is 8200 per million people (Australia's is around 1000 per million) with a death rate of 57 deaths per 100,000 people, compared with just five in Norway and 11 in Denmark. Australia's current deaths per 100,000 people is 3.1.

Steadson says the pandemic in Sweden is not close to being over.

"In the past two weeks people have been returning to schools and work, and we continue to have 1000 to 2000 new cases a week," Steadson says.

"The numbers have started to trend up again, and it's my expectation they will continue to move up as we move in to autumn and winter. The pandemic is not even close to over in Sweden."

'I was told not to see a doctor'
The former University of Queensland academic says that more than five months after becoming infected, he is improving week-to-week but still has days "where I feel as if someone is strangling me and I can't breathe properly".

"The last three days I've had an inflamed and painful digestive tract. And sleeping? Forget it.

"In Sweden it's estimated there are over 150,000 people who have been ill with Covid-19 symptoms now for more than 10 weeks. I am one of them. For many weeks I had blood oxygen levels that under normal circumstances would trigger a clinical assessment of supplemental oxygen."

When he first became ill, the advice from doctors was to stay away.

"Having suspected I had Covid-19, I was told not to even go to the doctor for fear of infecting health staff," he says.

Steadson says what is perhaps even more concerning is the portrayal of the virus in Sweden's media.

"Media outlets seem more concerned with protecting Sweden's image than they do in reporting the facts, and challenging the authorities over some of the frankly outrageous statements they make is left almost entirely to foreign journalists," he says.

Swedish model would be a disaster in Australia
Dr Nick Talley is editor-in-chief of the Medical Journal of Australia. He says the Swedish model has been a failure.

"In my view, the Swedish model has not been a success, at least to date," he told news.com.au.

"One clear goal at least early on was reach herd immunity – but this was not achieved, not even close, and this was arguably predictable.

"There were restrictions put in place but the philosophy was voluntary rather than compulsory. There is evidence there was a major impact of this voluntary lockdown on behaviour as reflected in, for example, reduced mobility and spending. However the spread of Covid-19 and the death rate was substantially higher in Sweden compared with its neighbours who mandated lockdowns.

"A major contributor to the failure of the voluntary approach was spread of infection into homes for the elderly. Young people also appear to have been the least likely to alter their behaviour which may have contributed to community spread.

"Notably the economy was not saved from contraction by the approach. I am not convinced the Swedish model would be any more successful here in Australia, and arguably if compliance with voluntary recommendations was lower, the results would be worse – look at mask use in Sydney which is voluntary but has been strongly recommended."
Foreigners heaping shit on Sweden is becoming a sport. Like coronavirus is some kind of nationalistic competition which is retarded. The Swedes made a call and stuck with it. Maybe history will prove them wrong, maybe it will prove them right. Its categorically too early to make that call and quite frankly this kind of reporting reeks.

The fact that nations are ruled and owned largely by old men - the most vulnerable group - may explain the tremendous economic and social upheaval they're prepared to endure to contain covid.

But when it comes to an infinitely worse problem - impending ecological meltdown - they say we can't afford it, nar, it's all bullshit anyway, what would those scientists know anyway. We'll be dead or demented in 20 years time, so who cares?

The Swedes are very rational. They made a call on what they believe is a realistic and measured response that would result in the greatest net benefit for society and they stuck with it. I applaud them. Not irrelevant is the fact they also lead the world when it comes to ecological protection and conservation.
TBF, the biggest fluffers of Sweden on this thread are from the same country - maybe you Aussies need to get your stories straight? ;)
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Blackrock Bullet »

Ted. wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:51 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:20 am
Enzedder wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:07 am Kill off the old, frail, susceptible citizens and Darwin's Law will look after the rest.

Glad we didn't have that attitude.
That's not their plan at all though. The whole of Europe missed the issue with care homes and the elderly, all european countries, whatever their strategy and outcomes had this issue because when it spread nobody had prior plans to deal with it given no countries could get enough PPE or tests done to control the spread. It's sad you have to troll other countries like that when essentially New Zealand was way slower to go into lockdown then many European countries whose outcomes were worse and essentially lucked out by it's relative isolation.
It hardly matters what there plan was, arguable as that is, the end results is what they are measuring themselves by and what other's should. So Enz's comment is perfectly reasonable on that basis.

f**king filthy stooly.
Eh no, Enz is referring to a strategy.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

CM11 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:34 am Would have thought someone living in the country for 20 years would be qualified to speak as a local as opposed to just being described as a 'foreigner'.
Theres far more medical experts in Sweden who support the Swedish method. In fact, a team of highly trained epidemiologists invented it!

Instead they choose to interview some attention seeking twat flying his flag at half mast in order to solicit a response from his confused neighbours going about their day with a more reasonable and measured perspective.

To be clear, I'm not saying the Swedish response is the best or the worst. I think its too early to tell and there's other considerations besides death statistics.

The Swedes made a rational, intelligent, scientifically justified call on the measures they were willing to take that would result in the greatest net benefit for society as a whole and they've stuck with it. It may not turn out to be the best in retrospect but maybe it will, and regardless its most certainly not worthy of some of the scathing accusatory self-congratulatory utter horse shit I read in foreign press.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:47 am
CM11 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:34 am Would have thought someone living in the country for 20 years would be qualified to speak as a local as opposed to just being described as a 'foreigner'.
Theres far more medical experts in Sweden who support the Swedish method. In fact, a team of highly trained epidemiologists invented it!

Instead they choose to interview some attention seeking twat flying his flag at half mast in order to solicit a response from his confused neighbours going about their day with a more reasonable and measured perspective.

To be clear, I'm not saying the Swedish response is the best or the worst. I think its too early to tell and there's other considerations besides death statistics.

The Swedes made a rational, intelligent, scientifically justified call on the measures they were willing to take that would result in the greatest net benefit for society as a whole and they've stuck with it. It may not turn out to be the best in retrospect but maybe it will, and regardless its most certainly not worthy of some of the scathing accusatory self-congratulatory utter horse shit I read in foreign press.
You did spot that he has some expertise in the subject?
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

:roll: This is obviously falling on deaf ears. Yes, I did. Read my post again (or perhaps for the first time).
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by UncleFB »

Blackrock Bullet wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:33 am
Muttonbirds wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:23 pm This Australian living in Sweden thinks their response has been a failure and the Swedes just don't want to admit it.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/a ... d=12364015
Whether you agree or disagree with the strategy, it really shows up how small time so many countries are. NZ media looking everywhere for stories on what a failure the Swedish strategy is, only NZ can be the Covid-19 World Champs and that's that.

Ireland would be the same. I doubt they give much of a crap in Sweden.
This is a silly comment, a cursory search of the NZ Herald shows that they also have the "pro" Sweden articles as well.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:53 am :roll: This is obviously falling on deaf ears. Yes, I did. Read my post again (or perhaps for the first time).
You make it out that it was a random, unqualified, foreign person they interviewed to have a go at Sweden as opposed to a qualified, concerned, long time resident.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

CM11 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:55 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:53 am :roll: This is obviously falling on deaf ears. Yes, I did. Read my post again (or perhaps for the first time).
You make it out that it was a random, unqualified, foreign person they interviewed to have a go at Sweden as opposed to a qualified, concerned, long time resident.
No I didn't. I made the point that there are far more experts they could have interviewed in Sweden who would have given a far less sensationalist account. But they cherry picked the attention-seeking knob busy sniffing his own farts and rubbing it in the face of his neighbours.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:59 am
CM11 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:55 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:53 am :roll: This is obviously falling on deaf ears. Yes, I did. Read my post again (or perhaps for the first time).
You make it out that it was a random, unqualified, foreign person they interviewed to have a go at Sweden as opposed to a qualified, concerned, long time resident.
No I didn't. I made the point that there are far more experts they could have interviewed in Sweden who would have given a far less sensationalist account. But they cherry picked the attention-seeking knob busy sniffing his own farts and rubbing it in the face of his neighbours.
:roll:

Yes, this is the only article written this year about covid.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

FFS you can be tedious. I was making a very good point and now it's drowned out by your crap posting.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by CM11 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:46 am FFS you can be tedious. I was making a very good point and now it's drowned out by your crap posting.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by RandomNavigat0r »

MungoMan wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:34 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:34 am
mabunch78 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
NZ is massively protectionist - not a true free-market economy. Big government subsidies for their industry 'winners'. But their tabloids are always ready to condemn a similar approach from larger trading partners... :roll:
The place is basically an experiment on how to govern a police state and brainwash a countries citizens. Beautiful place but a political fuckup.
If I didn't recognise you from your previous incarnations, I would be dismissing you as a lamer troll / novelly account. But since I do recognise you, you are being dismissed as a genuine fúcken idiot.

To keep this brief, I won't delve into how NZ was a world-leader amongst parliamentary democracies in respect of ushering in market economics at the national level. Look it up yourself. Instead I'll look at one small but very illustrative issue.

You must have noticed the sheer number of signs, placards etc put up by governments (local and state) and private companies either barring or warning from doing this or that lest something awful befall you. Yeah I'm sure you have, being the type of fella who sees Nanny State wherever he looks. But here's the thing: NZ aint like that.

As a for-example, the Wellington waterfront isn't bedecked with signs along the alignment of the non-existent dock railings informing folk there are no dock railings. There are no signs warning that the water may be deeper, shallower, wetter or more watery than it appears, altho' there is the odd one saying don't fish here or don't dive here. Yet if this were Brissie or Perth, legions of sign-makers would have put their kids through private schools purely on the basis of warnings.

The reason is a simple one: in the early 1970s the NZ government brought in an Act effectively striking out a whole bunch of common law torts and replacing them with a government-run accident compensation scheme. Despite multiple changes of government since, that scheme is still in place. And one consequence of this is the comparative rarity of egregiously patronising signs warning of the obvious and forbidding the reasonable.

Yep, Nanny State hell.
If you are making a determination on whether New Zealand is a nanny state based on how many sign postings it has then you my friend are an even bigger f**king idiot!!
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by msp. »

RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:20 pm
MungoMan wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:34 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:34 am
mabunch78 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
RandomNavigat0r wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am I would much rather Be in Sweden than New Zealand.

NZL is basically a prison state. Government has far too much power and control over its citizens.

The funny thing is NZL citizens actually think they are the most free in the world, they grow up believing that mantra and blindly follow their governments advice like they can do no wrong and always have their best interests in hand. It's not till people leave NZL and venture into the real world do they realise just how much their government suffocates them in NZL.

Just look at Western Australia and most of the other Aussie states. No lock downs, other than the clown Dan in Vic who is being smashed in the polls, every where else is getting on with life like normal. Even then Australia has handled this whole affair like a bunch of amateurs, which says alot about New Zealand.
NZ is massively protectionist - not a true free-market economy. Big government subsidies for their industry 'winners'. But their tabloids are always ready to condemn a similar approach from larger trading partners... :roll:
The place is basically an experiment on how to govern a police state and brainwash a countries citizens. Beautiful place but a political fuckup.
If I didn't recognise you from your previous incarnations, I would be dismissing you as a lamer troll / novelly account. But since I do recognise you, you are being dismissed as a genuine fúcken idiot.

To keep this brief, I won't delve into how NZ was a world-leader amongst parliamentary democracies in respect of ushering in market economics at the national level. Look it up yourself. Instead I'll look at one small but very illustrative issue.

You must have noticed the sheer number of signs, placards etc put up by governments (local and state) and private companies either barring or warning from doing this or that lest something awful befall you. Yeah I'm sure you have, being the type of fella who sees Nanny State wherever he looks. But here's the thing: NZ aint like that.

As a for-example, the Wellington waterfront isn't bedecked with signs along the alignment of the non-existent dock railings informing folk there are no dock railings. There are no signs warning that the water may be deeper, shallower, wetter or more watery than it appears, altho' there is the odd one saying don't fish here or don't dive here. Yet if this were Brissie or Perth, legions of sign-makers would have put their kids through private schools purely on the basis of warnings.

The reason is a simple one: in the early 1970s the NZ government brought in an Act effectively striking out a whole bunch of common law torts and replacing them with a government-run accident compensation scheme. Despite multiple changes of government since, that scheme is still in place. And one consequence of this is the comparative rarity of egregiously patronising signs warning of the obvious and forbidding the reasonable.

Yep, Nanny State hell.
If you are making a determination on whether New Zealand is a nanny state based on how many sign postings it has then you my friend are an even bigger f**king idiot!!
Nope he is saying that New Zealand is not a country where the government controls everything, because there is a central government compensation scheme, that removes/reduces the risk of companies getting sued my members of the public.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Enzedder »

and there's other considerations besides death statistics.
Mog, in the grand scheme of things, I cannot think of any that would even reach 10% of the importance of that stat.
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Enzedder wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:29 pm
and there's other considerations besides death statistics.
Mog, in the grand scheme of things, I cannot think of any that would even reach 10% of the importance of that stat.
Its a cold, heartless thing to discuss. I grant you that and I do understand the sentiment, genuinely. But it is the reality and it is the reality with so many other things we take for granted. What is an acceptable speed limit? We could reduce is to 10km/ph and literally save millions world wide. What are the acceptable swimming rules in the ocean despite many drowning each year? What are the acceptable rugby laws despite young people becoming paraplegic or brain damaged?

These are uncomfortable questions but each time we must reach a reasonable and workable compromise.

When it comes to a far worse problem - impending ecological meltdown - the hypocrisy is clear. We are apparently happy to roll the dice, or claim we we can't afford it, or that its all bullshit anyway, the scientific community is involved in a massive global conspiracy to protect the biosphere that sustains all life on earth, or they're "alarmists" ... but who gives a shit, we will all be dead or demented in 20 years time, so who cares? Bit different when the threat is more obviously imminent, huh?

So f-ck that, but the world must come to a grinding halt now? Over what amounts to a particularly vicious cold? The Swedish people decided, "not really. Life goes on". Its a shit situation that nobody asked for, but it is what it is. Everyone here is encouraged, but not forced, to take sensible precautions, .... we're not going to become a prison state. I can see and understand that point tbh (and I can also understand the other way around),. Whether history proves Sweden right or wrong is yet to be seen, and won't be known for sure for years to come, but in the meantime, maybe selfishly, as a relatively young and relatively fit person, I am glad to be in Sweden right now. That's not to minimise the plight of others. My mum is a 74 year old nurse with an auto-immune disorder who refuses to stop working in the hospital. I worry for her immensely.
Last edited by Mog The Almighty on Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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True Blue
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Re: It's official, Sweden declare themselves the Covid winners

Post by True Blue »

Time will tell. Personally I think NZ went too hard and have screwed over the economy in the process but we shall see.

NZ is basically assuming there will be an effective vaccine. There is no surety of that at all. Is the country just going to lock itself down every outbreak?
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