Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

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Liathroidigloine
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Liathroidigloine »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
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anonymous_joe
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by anonymous_joe »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:07 am Burns looks like he's injured his calf, it's massively strapped up.

As said before the game Leinster's ability to keep so many players in the defensive line while also being able to target specific rucks for turnovers just kills opposition attacks. Ulster got into attacking positions frequently and couldn't get anything from it, Ulster are incredibly wasteful in the opposition 22 at the best of times, nevermind against the best team in Europe.

Some of Brace's penalties against the attacking team though are mad, and he's now an international ref, Ulster conceded nearly double their average number of penalties ffs.
Reddan was giving out stink recently about how few teams use the scrum-half as an auxiliary "fielder" of kicks to allow the wingers push up and widen the defensive line.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by camroc1 »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:07 am Burns looks like he's injured his calf, it's massively strapped up.

As said before the game Leinster's ability to keep so many players in the defensive line while also being able to target specific rucks for turnovers just kills opposition attacks. Ulster got into attacking positions frequently and couldn't get anything from it, Ulster are incredibly wasteful in the opposition 22 at the best of times, nevermind against the best team in Europe.

Some of Brace's penalties against the attacking team though are mad, and he's now an international ref, Ulster conceded nearly double their average number of penalties ffs.
I said it after the "inter-pros", given the Irish refs implementation of the "new" ruck interpretations, entering a ruck with the ball is becoming a liability, particularly after a half break.

Leinster "won" the penalty count 15 - 10; but 25 penalties in a match is pretty awful stuff.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by earl the beaver »

camroc1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:34 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:07 am Burns looks like he's injured his calf, it's massively strapped up.

As said before the game Leinster's ability to keep so many players in the defensive line while also being able to target specific rucks for turnovers just kills opposition attacks. Ulster got into attacking positions frequently and couldn't get anything from it, Ulster are incredibly wasteful in the opposition 22 at the best of times, nevermind against the best team in Europe.

Some of Brace's penalties against the attacking team though are mad, and he's now an international ref, Ulster conceded nearly double their average number of penalties ffs.
I said it after the "inter-pros", given the Irish refs implementation of the "new" ruck interpretations, entering a ruck with the ball is becoming a liability, particularly after a half break.

Leinster "won" the penalty count 15 - 10; but 25 penalties in a match is pretty awful stuff.
There was one against Ulster on a kick return where he penalised Lowry for being off his feet because his hands were on Stockdale's hip/side, still clearly on his feet and no Leinster player competing so Lowry was first man securing the ball after the tackle, whistle goes. Just madness.

Also pinged Jack McGrath for being the latch on the tackle and going down with the tackled player.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Nolanator »

For that McGrath one, he didn't seem to be interfering with access to the ball by any potential poacher.
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earl the beaver
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by earl the beaver »

Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:33 am For that McGrath one, he didn't seem to be interfering with access to the ball by any potential poacher.
Yep, he was to the side of the player he was latching onto (Carter?) when they hit the deck so wasn't in the way and was effectively part of the tackle.

The Lowry one was worse though, no one was even there to compete and all he did was have his hands on Stockdale the tackled player.
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hermie
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by hermie »

Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
This is a pretty dumb post. No defensive system is ever going to get it 100% right for an entire game. It's about teams taking these opportunities when they arise. Now Ulster didn't take all their chances but they manufactured this one extremely well. I don't know why you would say otherwise. There was some great play leading up to the move to stress the defense creating that disconnect that you talk about and Hume finished it brilliantly.
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hermie
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by hermie »

camroc1 wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:34 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:07 am Burns looks like he's injured his calf, it's massively strapped up.

As said before the game Leinster's ability to keep so many players in the defensive line while also being able to target specific rucks for turnovers just kills opposition attacks. Ulster got into attacking positions frequently and couldn't get anything from it, Ulster are incredibly wasteful in the opposition 22 at the best of times, nevermind against the best team in Europe.

Some of Brace's penalties against the attacking team though are mad, and he's now an international ref, Ulster conceded nearly double their average number of penalties ffs.
I said it after the "inter-pros", given the Irish refs implementation of the "new" ruck interpretations, entering a ruck with the ball is becoming a liability, particularly after a half break.

Leinster "won" the penalty count 15 - 10; but 25 penalties in a match is pretty awful stuff.
I think more penalties went against Ulster simply because they had more of the ball. But yeah awful, really infuriating to watch. Two teams eager to go out and play and the ref intent on stopping it.
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Liathroidigloine
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Liathroidigloine »

hermie wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:51 am
Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
This is a pretty dumb post. No defensive system is ever going to get it 100% right for an entire game. It's about teams taking these opportunities when they arise. Now Ulster didn't take all their chances but they manufactured this one extremely well. I don't know why you would say otherwise. There was some great play leading up to the move to stress the defense creating that disconnect that you talk about and Hume finished it brilliantly.
Leinster had numbers to stop the try, most times they concede is when they run out of numbers. Ryan and Kelleher's spacing was poor, it didn't take a good offload or a clever pass to split the defence, it just took a quicker lad running around a slower lad who should have been closer to his outside defender but wasn't as James Ryan had closed in. It was poor defence. Hume spotted the mismatch and space well so he gets full credit for that.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by earl the beaver »

Ulster pull Kelleher out of the line with dummy run from TOT and the pass out the back to the looping Hume running from right to left, it's not about the spacing of Ryan and Kelleher it's a set play from Ulster having identified that Leinster had 4 forwards on the left side of defence.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by lorcanoworms »

Lads just give them the trophy, we've got a yurt or gite load of them.
Can't see me self up all night slaving over thread creation if it's just going to get fighty.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Luckycharmer »

Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
Disagree Hume had the angle and the pace on Lowe who was always struggling to catch him. It was a very well worked try which Hume showed great pace to finish.
If Leinster do beat Sarries do we get Exeter who I think could really put it up to Leinster, should have been us in LR a couple of years ago.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Liathroidigloine »

Tom O'Toole had another fine game and justified his selection over Jack Mc. He has great potential and just needs to keep developing. Porter would have been up there for my MOM.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Nolanator »

TOT is THP. He's been selected ahead of Marty. EOS was selected ahead of McGrath.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Nolanator »

Luckycharmer wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 pmIf Leinster do beat Sarries do we get Exeter who I think could really put it up to Leinster, should have been us in LR a couple of years ago.

Thought we'd get one of the French teams?
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Liathroidigloine »

Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:06 pm TOT is THP. He's been selected ahead of Marty. EOS was selected ahead of McGrath.
Jesus, I'm really away with the fairies today. Go out for a few pints on Saturday and the brain is still mush on Monday.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Nolanator »

Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:00 pm
Nolanator wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:06 pm TOT is THP. He's been selected ahead of Marty. EOS was selected ahead of McGrath.
Jesus, I'm really away with the fairies today. Go out for a few pints on Saturday and the brain is still mush on Monday.
Was surprised at you pulling an Ika!
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Floppykid »

Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
It was also just really good power and pace from Hume to exploit it all.
Him and Marshall together would make a good pairing. McCloskey can be coached out of games completely.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by crouchy »

Floppykid wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 pm
Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
It was also just really good power and pace from Hume to exploit it all.
Him and Marshall together would make a good pairing. McCloskey can be coached out of games completely.
It's not McCloskey's fault he can be coached out of games. He can only coached out of games because we are so lacking in ball carriers that oppositions can focus all their attention on McCloskey and Coetzee and it completely nullifies us.

McCloskey would absolutely excel at Leinster, but I suppose anyone would.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by HighKingLeinster »

crouchy wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:06 pm
Floppykid wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:25 pm
Liathroidigloine wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:27 am
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 am Stats don't make good reading at all for Ulster's attack or defence.

Ulster had approximately 60% possession and 60% territory in the first half, 50% in the second.

The had more passes, more carries, for fewer metres, conceded more line breaks etc. And despite every other stat being similar (ruck completion, tackle completion and so on) we lost by 22 cúnting points. Okay so Leinster have the best defence in the league but Ulster's attack did not click at all bar the first try.
I don't think Ulster's try was a result of great attack. Rather it was a lapse in Leinsters defence with spacing by James Ryan and Kelleher leaving Kelleher with too much to do. Good awareness by Hume but once again we saw Lowe miss a tackle he should have made.
It was also just really good power and pace from Hume to exploit it all.
Him and Marshall together would make a good pairing. McCloskey can be coached out of games completely.
It's not McCloskey's fault he can be coached out of games. He can only coached out of games because we are so lacking in ball carriers that oppositions can focus all their attention on McCloskey and Coetzee and it completely nullifies us.

McCloskey would absolutely excel at Leinster, but I suppose anyone would.
He'd only excel at Leinster because he'd only get a game against the likes of Zebre or the cows. Wouldnt be near the Heineken Cup side
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Nolanator »

I dunno, he's a very important player for Ulster, but I just don't think what he brings is particuarly effective at the top level. Defenses are too well organised and most players are powerful enough with good technique at that level that he can be largely contained.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by Jim Lahey »

He goes into contact too high.
Fine against shite teams as he can get an offload away or they struggle to tackle him.
Easy target for better defensive teams.

If he doesn’t get the offload away he’ll be slow getting to ground and the ball coming out of the ruck will be slow, allowing the defence to get sorted. Leinster bossed him on Saturday and given that he’s probably our main attacking weapon, we were impotent in attack.

He’s been great for Ulster over the years but he does have his limitations against better sides imo.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by hermie »

Nolanator wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:15 pm I dunno, he's a very important player for Ulster, but I just don't think what he brings is particuarly effective at the top level. Defenses are too well organised and most players are powerful enough with good technique at that level that he can be largely contained.
Wouldn't agree with that really. He could be really effective if, as crouchy says, he wasn't so easy to focus on. You put your best tackler on McCloskey and double-team Coetzee and that will go a long way towards stopping Ulster. If you have a couple more power options closer in (a fully fit Hendo, plus one other say) then you start to get mismatches or Coetzee one-on-one that bit more. Teams like Ulster are desperate to get their strike runners into those situations, where as a team like Saracens actually want you to be overly concerned about Billy V, for example, and have a whole gameplan worked out to destroy you if you are.
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Re: Leinster v Leinster cadet branch.

Post by earl the beaver »

McCloskey is a great player for us and despite being easy to put a man on he carries time and time again and breaks the gainline with those tacklers on him.

He also has good hands (although he's definitely offloading less) and has shown that he can be used as a decoy or can shift it on.

When we've had a full team, a fit Hendo as you say but also having more options in the backline.

I reckon ideally McFarland would have Jack McGrath on form and start TOT at 3 with Moore on the bench and then you have TOT, Henderson, Coetzee and McGrath and heavy hitters in the back (backed up Reidy/Murphy/Rea/Herring/AOC who won't shy away from carrying. That would give opposition something to think about outside of just man marking McCloskey and Coetzee. In the backline we seem loath to use our wingers on strike plays but we didn't at the start of the season, letting Balacoune or Stockdale take the ball at pace would also free him up and he could have Addison as an option out the back.

In some of our big wins against top sides (Clermont, Racing etc.) McCloskey has been great and across the season he's undoubtedly one of Ulster's most important players.
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