Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

All things Rugby
User avatar
Dark
Posts: 6139
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 2:38 am
Location: NZ

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Dark »

bimboman wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:48 am
earl the beaver wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:34 am
Mr Fedora wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:03 am
RodneyRegis wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:39 pm When a woman competes and beats a man in elite competitive sport we'll include them in goat discussions.
Girls beat the blokes fairly regularly in elite equestrian events, since horsemanship puts a premium on attributes other than strength. Their relative deficiency in that department is the main reason women don't make it into GOAT discussions in 99% of sports.
Horse dancing isn't a sport imo.

Bit of a farce it's in the Olympics imo
TBF People platting an animals hair and then making it skip sideways in the right time ain't really a sport.

It is a bit like the girls throwing ribbons round and people trying to swim synchronised in a swimming pool.



Eventing ......
juddy
Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:20 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by juddy »

Ellen MacArthur was a 'Great British Sportsperson' imo, who successfully competed with men.
User avatar
EverReady
Posts: 32816
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by EverReady »

Sailing is bollox. I've done it and you just sit there and squint at the horizon
Fruit and Nutt
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:37 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

Women are inferior at lots of sports/hobbies/past-times where being stronger has no particular advantage;

Darts
Snooker/Pool
Diving
Trampoline
Just about all e-sports (sitting on your arse playing computer games)
Aerobatic flying (Red Bull etc)
All Motorsport - bar F1 where being a man does has considerable advantages.
Chess
Scrabble
Shooting variants (clay-pigeon, target, archery etc)
Skeleton Bobsleigh


...and loads more no doubt you can add.
User avatar
Edinburgh01
Posts: 5508
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Edinburgh01 »

There is a big difference between sports that occur globally, and sports that are participated in globally.

A good test to me as to whether a sport is truly global is how big the barriers to competition are. Football has almost no barriers, so it is truly global. As a result, elite competitors come from all over (and yes there are exceptions like India where cricket dominates). So sports like football, athletics etc are true global sports as they occur pretty near everywhere, and talent comes from pretty near everywhere.

Any form of motor sport, or equestrian sport, or similar, has significant barriers to entry. They may occur globally, but only a small number of people in a few countries can actually participate.

I have no idea what the relative numbers are, but to be a F1 world champion you need to be the best of quite a small number of people. To be the Olympic 5k champion, you need to be the best of huge numbers.

I don't think Hamilton can be in the discussion as best ever British sports person for the same reason I don't think Redgrave can, i.e. the number of people who participate in their sport globally is very small, so they are only the best of a very small group.
User avatar
blindcider
Posts: 8068
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by blindcider »

eldanielfire wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:56 am
AlanBengio wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:53 am
LandOTurk wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:55 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:05 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:55 pm

Do you really have no idea how physical it is.

It exerts great physical pressure on the body, the driver does not actually do anything very physical.
Kind of like weightlifting. Just a push.
As someone already mentioned - the level of fitness Jenson Button had enabled him to compete triathlon IRONMAN world champion circuit few times during his spare time (getting few podiums during the "career")
This is not unusual. Chrissie Wellington came out the civil service to become Ironman Triathlon world champion the same year. I wouldn't ut the Civil Service as some sort of marker for fitness. Triathlons and Ironman Triathlons are all full of sporty people who find success in the sport after leaving another career. They succeed because they naturally have a level of fitness that and a body type that suits the sport. I'd doubt bulky rugby players would find huge success in an Ironman Triathlon. I'm not saying F1 drivers are not very fit BTW, I'm saying that doesn't make them great athletes or sports people.
You are talking absolute bollocks again
User avatar
eldanielfire
Posts: 29670
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by eldanielfire »

blindcider wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:50 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:56 am
AlanBengio wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:53 am
LandOTurk wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:55 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:05 pm


It exerts great physical pressure on the body, the driver does not actually do anything very physical.
Kind of like weightlifting. Just a push.
As someone already mentioned - the level of fitness Jenson Button had enabled him to compete triathlon IRONMAN world champion circuit few times during his spare time (getting few podiums during the "career")
This is not unusual. Chrissie Wellington came out the civil service to become Ironman Triathlon world champion the same year. I wouldn't ut the Civil Service as some sort of marker for fitness. Triathlons and Ironman Triathlons are all full of sporty people who find success in the sport after leaving another career. They succeed because they naturally have a level of fitness that and a body type that suits the sport. I'd doubt bulky rugby players would find huge success in an Ironman Triathlon. I'm not saying F1 drivers are not very fit BTW, I'm saying that doesn't make them great athletes or sports people.
You are talking absolute bollocks again
So Wellington wasn't world champion soon after she quit her job? There aren't a large number of triathletes who enter the sport as an adult from a variety of backgrounds to take up the sport later than most other sports and gain success? Or do you think bulky Rugby players would make great triathletes?
Jay Cee Gee
Posts: 18270
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:46 pm Diving
Trampoline
Surely strength plays a fairly big role in the flippy shit?
Jay Cee Gee
Posts: 18270
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

EverReady wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:33 pm Sailing is bollox. I've done it and you just sit there and squint at the horizon
Globus bait.
User avatar
blindcider
Posts: 8068
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by blindcider »

eldanielfire wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:59 pm
blindcider wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:50 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:56 am
AlanBengio wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:53 am
LandOTurk wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:55 pm

Kind of like weightlifting. Just a push.
As someone already mentioned - the level of fitness Jenson Button had enabled him to compete triathlon IRONMAN world champion circuit few times during his spare time (getting few podiums during the "career")
This is not unusual. Chrissie Wellington came out the civil service to become Ironman Triathlon world champion the same year. I wouldn't ut the Civil Service as some sort of marker for fitness. Triathlons and Ironman Triathlons are all full of sporty people who find success in the sport after leaving another career. They succeed because they naturally have a level of fitness that and a body type that suits the sport. I'd doubt bulky rugby players would find huge success in an Ironman Triathlon. I'm not saying F1 drivers are not very fit BTW, I'm saying that doesn't make them great athletes or sports people.
You are talking absolute bollocks again
So Wellington wasn't world champion soon after she quit her job? There aren't a large number of triathletes who enter the sport as an adult from a variety of backgrounds to take up the sport later than most other sports and gain success? Or do you think bulky Rugby players would make great triathletes?
No just that you are once again talking bollocks
User avatar
eldanielfire
Posts: 29670
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by eldanielfire »

blindcider wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:39 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:59 pm

So Wellington wasn't world champion soon after she quit her job? There aren't a large number of triathletes who enter the sport as an adult from a variety of backgrounds to take up the sport later than most other sports and gain success? Or do you think bulky Rugby players would make great triathletes?
No just that you are once again talking bollocks
Given you're disputing some definite facts I brought up, I'm not the one talking bollocks here :lol:.

If you disagree, feel free to dispute the facts and debate them. Otherwise your posts, which currently add absolutely nothing here, are just an ugly waste of everyone's time.
ukjim
Posts: 2060
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by ukjim »

how to be a great triathlete, be a average talent in three different sports.

lets face it triathletes only do triathlons because they cant run that fast or handle bikes in a bunch.
Rugby2023
Posts: 12121
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Rugby2023 »

ElementFreak wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:27 am Hamilton came into the sport and beat the reigning 2 time champion in the same machinery, has the most poles of all time, had equal most victories of all time, the most podiums, has won a race in every season he has competed it (only one to do that), has a fairly clean race record especially in title fights (unlike Schumacher and Senna for example).

No way are all of those drivers better than him. IMO only Clark on that list is close, and depending on who you talk to, is ahead of Hamilton. I think the best way of "ranking" drivers is the split them into tiers, something like:

Great
Very good
Above average
Average
Below par

Then it's personal preference to what order you put them in.
I've seen Hamilton struggle though, when not in the best car he'd be impatient, take silly risks and cause crashes. He had a real nightmare run at one point. One of the greats of British motorsport undoubtedly, but I wouldn't have him in the greatest British sportsperson frame although tbh it's an impossible discussion anyway, too many candidates, too many incomparable sports.
User avatar
Frodder
Posts: 10398
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:25 pm
Location: Leafy Cheshire (West)

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Frodder »

EverReady wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:33 pm Sailing is bollox. I've done it and you just sit there and squint at the horizon
Yeah but you were p1ssed though
User avatar
msp.
Posts: 1703
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by msp. »

Dark wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:45 am
msp. wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:42 pm So Global Sports

Football
F1
Golf
Athletics
Tapdancing
Nah

Will give you football
F1 is arguable
No one gives a toss about golf
Same with athletics outside an Olympic year
So the only Global sport is football, - all the rest are debatable..
User avatar
eldanielfire
Posts: 29670
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by eldanielfire »

Rugby2023 wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:39 am
I've seen Hamilton struggle though, when not in the best car he'd be impatient, take silly risks and cause crashes. He had a real nightmare run at one point. One of the greats of British motorsport undoubtedly, but I wouldn't have him in the greatest British sportsperson frame although tbh it's an impossible discussion anyway, too many candidates, too many incomparable sports.
Very much this. This topic alone only shows the sheer opinions on what even constitutes a sport or an elite athlete, even though there would be some agreement on a number of sports.

There is also the case of "does it matter?". I think the internet over time has absolutely wreaked GOAT discussion sin sports by the sheer volume and frequency of the discussion.

Also often athletes only succeed in their era and with their environment. Does any British Cyclish win multiple cycling medals prior to the establishment of the lottery and having the richest and most well resourced force in the sport? Do Nadal and Djokovic win so many Grand Slams in the wooden racquet era with no personal nutritionists, physios, S&C coaches etc? Does a Chris Evert, Court or Billie Jean-King win slams in the modern power era? Does Tom Brady have such a long career and win so many Super Bowls in his 30's in any prior era? Do Messi and Ronaldo score so may goals with the old heavy footballs that spun less? What might be the state of English football had Arsen Wenger not arrived and influenced the game so much?

There are certainly some players I can see being a success in any era. There are certainly many big winners today who I can not see achieve similar feats without the huge backroom of support they get. There are athletes with less big wins but at their peak were superior to those who won more.
User avatar
eldanielfire
Posts: 29670
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by eldanielfire »

ukjim wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:31 pm how to be a great triathlete, be a average talent in three different sports.

lets face it triathletes only do triathlons because they cant run that fast or handle bikes in a bunch.
I doubt you could say triathletes are average at 3 different sports. Many of the champions are actually very good at one or two sports, just not world champion good.
Fruit and Nutt
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:37 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

Good interview here from 2012 of Alonso being asked to compare Vettel with Hamilton. Remember, at the time of this interview, Hamilton was driving (and still winning races) the third/fourth best car on the grid. Vettel was driving the blown diffuser Red Bull and had just won two consecutive WDCs.

https://youtu.be/CEzqCcF2mps
User avatar
danny_fitz
Posts: 12027
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Mostly London........Mostly

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by danny_fitz »

A few years back I went to the Glorious Goodwood festival of speed and you got to see up close the early F1 cars and I have to say my respect for those drivers in the 50s/60s/70s grew immensely. These cars were little more then wire frames with a fuel tank, huge engine and a flimsy shell on top. Basically zero safety features. To have the balls to be a race winner let alone world champion back then was something else. Would a 1970s F1 title be worth more then a current title given that back then you had to be slightly mental and accept the very real risk of dying.
New Guy 2
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:01 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by New Guy 2 »

ukjim wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:31 pm how to be a great triathlete, be a average talent in three different sports.

lets face it triathletes only do triathlons because they cant run that fast or handle bikes in a bunch.
I used to do triathlons. When I was younger I was a mediocre county standard swimmer but when I did triathlons I used to wipe the floor with them in the pool. Would be first on my bike by miles.

Trouble is my cycling can only really be described as a leisurely amble so I was middle of the pack by the time I got onto the run.
ukjim
Posts: 2060
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by ukjim »

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:23 am
ukjim wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:31 pm how to be a great triathlete, be a average talent in three different sports.

lets face it triathletes only do triathlons because they cant run that fast or handle bikes in a bunch.
I doubt you could say triathletes are average at 3 different sports. Many of the champions are actually very good at one or two sports, just not world champion good.
yeah nah.

The best triathlete cyclists are not even in the same league as pro cyclists. Its not really a fair comparison though as cycling is a team sport and has so many nuances that are hard to learn.

Lots of decent runners who dont make it in athletics transition to triathlon and make it at the top level. I cant think of any that go the other way.

As they say triathlon is a sport invented for white folk as east Africans cant afford cervelo P5s.

Image
vs
Image

(surely blindcider will bite this time)
User avatar
earl the beaver
Posts: 50965
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by earl the beaver »

TBF the first two legs of the triathlon at the top level are often team affairs, groups work together on the swim and the bike and then go for themselves on the run.

See the Brownlee brothers and Varga who all train together in Leeds (or at least did), Varga is the stronger swimmer but would get left behind on the bike so they work together in competition.

As for top class athletes, wasn't Brownlee's 10k time in London only something like only 90seconds slower than Farrah's winning time in the actual 10k race? And that's after a 1500m swim and a 40k cycle.

He did then try and qualify for the commonwealth games at 10k and didn't make it mind but he was still doing triathlon training to go for that in Glasgow too. I imagine if he had gone for dedicated 10k training he might have been closer.
ukjim
Posts: 2060
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by ukjim »

yeah he is by far the best runner in triathlon and he is about the level of a very good club runner.

he is not getting near any east africans in this life.
User avatar
earl the beaver
Posts: 50965
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by earl the beaver »

ukjim wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:01 am yeah he is by far the best runner in triathlon and he is about the level of a very good club runner.

he is not getting near any east africans in this life.
The level of a very good club runner?

Despite not training for 10k races and still doing his swimming and cycling training he has a time less than 30 seconds off Olympic qualification.

If he had focused on 10k for a period rather than staying multidisciplinary for Triathlon do you not think he would improve?
bimboman
Posts: 66374
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by bimboman »

earl the beaver wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:41 am
ukjim wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:01 am yeah he is by far the best runner in triathlon and he is about the level of a very good club runner.

he is not getting near any east africans in this life.
The level of a very good club runner?

Despite not training for 10k races and still doing his swimming and cycling training he has a time less than 30 seconds off Olympic qualification.

If he had focused on 10k for a period rather than staying multidisciplinary for Triathlon do you not think he would improve?


“Trained in Kenya”.
User avatar
message #2527204
Posts: 11638
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Ultracrepidaria

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by message #2527204 »

Edinburgh01 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:25 pm There is a big difference between sports that occur globally, and sports that are participated in globally.

A good test to me as to whether a sport is truly global is how big the barriers to competition are. Football has almost no barriers, so it is truly global. As a result, elite competitors come from all over (and yes there are exceptions like India where cricket dominates). So sports like football, athletics etc are true global sports as they occur pretty near everywhere, and talent comes from pretty near everywhere.

Any form of motor sport, or equestrian sport, or similar, has significant barriers to entry. They may occur globally, but only a small number of people in a few countries can actually participate.

I have no idea what the relative numbers are, but to be a F1 world champion you need to be the best of quite a small number of people. To be the Olympic 5k champion, you need to be the best of huge numbers.

I don't think Hamilton can be in the discussion as best ever British sports person for the same reason I don't think Redgrave can, i.e. the number of people who participate in their sport globally is very small, so they are only the best of a very small group.
F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. Not everyone can play at the pinnacle of football - for Madrid or Spurs, or run an Olympic 100m final , but everyone can drive a car.
ukjim
Posts: 2060
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by ukjim »

very good club runners do about 29 min or so.

there is a massive massive gulf between that and world elite (East African) times.

He might get good for a white guy standards but he wouldn't figure in the pointy end of the 10k on the track.
User avatar
Mr Fedora
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:24 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Mr Fedora »

Jay Cee Gee wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:01 pm
Fruit and Nutt wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:46 pm Diving
Trampoline
Surely strength plays a fairly big role in the flippy shit?
Weight too.
User avatar
Mr Fedora
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:24 pm

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by Mr Fedora »

danny_fitz wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:56 am A few years back I went to the Glorious Goodwood festival of speed and you got to see up close the early F1 cars and I have to say my respect for those drivers in the 50s/60s/70s grew immensely. These cars were little more then wire frames with a fuel tank, huge engine and a flimsy shell on top. Basically zero safety features. To have the balls to be a race winner let alone world champion back then was something else. Would a 1970s F1 title be worth more then a current title given that back then you had to be slightly mental and accept the very real risk of dying.
Aye, the near-insane level of death-defying courage required of drivers then is one element missing from today's F1, and the sport's the poorer for it. The gladiators of yore have turned into boy-racers who're at less risk of dying than an octogenarian jay-walking across Oxford St.
User avatar
EverReady
Posts: 32816
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Lewis Hamilton - Greatest British Sportsperson

Post by EverReady »

Frodder wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:38 am
EverReady wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:33 pm Sailing is bollox. I've done it and you just sit there and squint at the horizon
Yeah but you were p1ssed though
Locked with a huge bunch of bananas hanging from the boom but same thing
Post Reply