French terror attacks.

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eldanielfire
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by eldanielfire »

Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
Of course there are moderate Muslims. Like all religions there is a wide spectrum of believers. Many Christians don't think 'no sex before marriage' is relevant anymore for example. Of course Islam is the religion which has both the most and highest percentage of dedicated adherents and fanatics in mainstream religions with the and the most egregious message if you take it all 100%.

My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

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CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:59 pm
danny_fitz wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:05 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:24 pm Either kill them all, (impractical) or stop annoying them. I vote number 2.

Yes, because living with the very real threat of violence over a cartoon and other perceived offences from those who have chosen to live in a secular country is an acceptable status quo. Either 'we' continue to cravenly accept these threats from a bunch of intolerant f*cknuggets or we tell them that a condition of living in a liberal society is that they leave their medieval baggage at the door and toe the f**king line. I vote number 2.
Millions of them are born in Europe so that is a non starter. What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals
That's not necessarily the case. In fact, it could go the other direction as shown by young Muslims born and bred in western countries going to the ME to join ISIS etc.
:?
Rugby2023
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Rugby2023 »

bimboman wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:45 am https://twitter.com/RmSalih/status/1317350932129132544


Remember this is nothing to do with a particular religion.
that guy seems dangerous tbh, his TL reads like that of a twisted radical
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Rugby2023 »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
Of course there are moderate Muslims. Like all religions there is a wide spectrum of believers. Many Christians don't think 'no sex before marriage' is relevant anymore for example. Of course Islam is the religion which has both the most and highest percentage of dedicated adherents and fanatics in mainstream religions with the and the most egregious message if you take it all 100%.

My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
Need their votes.
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CrazyIslander
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by CrazyIslander »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:21 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:59 pm
danny_fitz wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:05 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:24 pm Either kill them all, (impractical) or stop annoying them. I vote number 2.

Yes, because living with the very real threat of violence over a cartoon and other perceived offences from those who have chosen to live in a secular country is an acceptable status quo. Either 'we' continue to cravenly accept these threats from a bunch of intolerant f*cknuggets or we tell them that a condition of living in a liberal society is that they leave their medieval baggage at the door and toe the f**king line. I vote number 2.
Millions of them are born in Europe so that is a non starter. What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals
That's not necessarily the case. In fact, it could go the other direction as shown by young Muslims born and bred in western countries going to the ME to join ISIS etc.
:?
In any community the extremists is a small fraction of the whole. This small group would be radicalised regardless which country they live.

The problem is the mechanism of radicalisation exists in mainstream Muslim society. Whilst the majority takes it with a grain of salt, a few will take it to heart. The solution is to force mainstream muslims to stop preaching those extremists ideas. The only way to do that is to make them preach tolerance. Tolerance is preached by two types of people. Those who have reached a level of enlightenment and compassion for their fellow man. And those who are oppressed.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Anonymous 1 »

CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:35 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:21 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:59 pm
danny_fitz wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:05 pm


Yes, because living with the very real threat of violence over a cartoon and other perceived offences from those who have chosen to live in a secular country is an acceptable status quo. Either 'we' continue to cravenly accept these threats from a bunch of intolerant f*cknuggets or we tell them that a condition of living in a liberal society is that they leave their medieval baggage at the door and toe the f**king line. I vote number 2.
Millions of them are born in Europe so that is a non starter. What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals
That's not necessarily the case. In fact, it could go the other direction as shown by young Muslims born and bred in western countries going to the ME to join ISIS etc.
:?
In any community the extremists is a small fraction of the whole. This small group would be radicalised regardless which country they live.

The problem is the mechanism of radicalisation exists in mainstream Muslim society. Whilst the majority takes it with a grain of salt, a few will take it to heart. The solution is to force mainstream muslims to stop preaching those extremists ideas. The only way to do that is to make them preach tolerance. Tolerance is preached by two types of people. Those who have reached a level of enlightenment and compassion for their fellow man. And those who are oppressed.
I said "What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals". I'm not talking about extremism. The growth of Sharia law and it's courts in the UK would scare a lot of people.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by CrazyIslander »

Yeah, I misread your post.
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Last Line
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Last Line »

Stay strong France and just keep shooting them dead preferably before the event.🙂
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

I said "What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals". I'm not talking about extremism. The growth of Sharia law and it's courts in the UK would scare a lot of people.

Sharia law is abhorrent.
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message #2527204
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by message #2527204 »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:45 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:35 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:21 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:59 pm
Millions of them are born in Europe so that is a non starter. What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals
That's not necessarily the case. In fact, it could go the other direction as shown by young Muslims born and bred in western countries going to the ME to join ISIS etc.
:?
In any community the extremists is a small fraction of the whole. This small group would be radicalised regardless which country they live.

The problem is the mechanism of radicalisation exists in mainstream Muslim society. Whilst the majority takes it with a grain of salt, a few will take it to heart. The solution is to force mainstream muslims to stop preaching those extremists ideas. The only way to do that is to make them preach tolerance. Tolerance is preached by two types of people. Those who have reached a level of enlightenment and compassion for their fellow man. And those who are oppressed.
I said "What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals". I'm not talking about extremism. The growth of Sharia law and it's courts in the UK would scare a lot of people.
Why would it? Sharia law IS the law for muslims. For my money, disestablishment and the removal of all religious indoctrination from state schools would be a start. Let all kids sit together in the same classrooms learning science and learning how to live together in the country.
That would probably get me arrested under the proposed new scottish laws btw.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Anonymous 1 »

message #2527204 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:02 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:45 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:35 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:21 pm
CrazyIslander wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:09 pm

That's not necessarily the case. In fact, it could go the other direction as shown by young Muslims born and bred in western countries going to the ME to join ISIS etc.
:?
In any community the extremists is a small fraction of the whole. This small group would be radicalised regardless which country they live.

The problem is the mechanism of radicalisation exists in mainstream Muslim society. Whilst the majority takes it with a grain of salt, a few will take it to heart. The solution is to force mainstream muslims to stop preaching those extremists ideas. The only way to do that is to make them preach tolerance. Tolerance is preached by two types of people. Those who have reached a level of enlightenment and compassion for their fellow man. And those who are oppressed.
I said "What you will find is as the populations grow they will get less tolerant of secular ideals". I'm not talking about extremism. The growth of Sharia law and it's courts in the UK would scare a lot of people.
Why would it? Sharia law IS the law for muslims. For my money, disestablishment and the removal of all religious indoctrination from state schools would be a start. Let all kids sit together in the same classrooms learning science and learning how to live together in the country.
That would probably get me arrested under the proposed new scottish laws btw.
You got that right Sharia law IS the law for Muslims. The growth of the Muslim population will mean at some point there will be demands to incorporate sections of it bit by bit into UK law.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

You got that right Sharia law IS the law for Muslims. The growth of the Muslim population will mean at some point there will be demands to incorporate sections of it bit by bit into UK law.
Seems fun.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Salient »

bimboman wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:34 pm
You got that right Sharia law IS the law for Muslims. The growth of the Muslim population will mean at some point there will be demands to incorporate sections of it bit by bit into UK law.
Seems fun.
Tourists less likely to flood into Edinburgh to get stoned at least.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Ali's Choice »

Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
x(
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Salient »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:36 am
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
x(
Who do you think votes for Trump :roll:
bimboman
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

Salient wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:52 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:36 am
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
x(
Who do you think votes for Trump :roll:


French people?
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by MungoMan »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:36 am
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation,
or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
x(
This is monumentally stupid shit, in particular the stuff in bold. In effect, it is saying that what people do is not all that material, the problem is people are thinking wrong thoughts.

One difficulty arising here is that most rational people truly do think others' actions are a damned sight more important than others' thoughts, since actions can be observed whereas thoughts not leading to actions cannot. One dead teacher vs. no dead teacher. Yeah, there may be a fella out there somewhere thinking about killing him or at least thinking the bugger deserves to die, but what to do? Mind-reading isn't exactly mature tech ...

The other difficulty relates to the explanatory power of the argument that the Quran leads to terrorism and other large-scale noxious shit as naturally and automatically as beer leads to a swollen bladder. That can be tested against observed actions as well. And it fails the test. I'm old enough to recall when fúck-all people would think 'terrorist' or 'extremist' when another said Muslim, for the simple reason that there was fúck-all Islamic terrorism actually occurring. For example, Chechens weren't cutting heads off in France or letting off bombs in the US.

Were they reading a different Quran?

As I said in another post, politics - the actions of the powerful and not-so-powerful in the real world - is the driver and modern-day jihadism is the vehicle. There an easy-to-grasp explanation for why Chechnya began producing rather too many dangerous and fúcked-up people after a particular point in time, and that point in time wasn't the first edition of the Quran hit the shelves. It was when the first Russian bombs and shells began hitting the Chechen capital.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:54 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
What is it you guys suggest should be done as regards Islam
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:54 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
What is it you guys suggest should be done as regards Islam
Well I don't know, but the ability to talk openly and honestly is a crucial first step. I know what shouldn't be done, and that is apologetics and excuse-making. The Reformation didn't and couldn't occur like that.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by MungoMan »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:02 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:54 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
What is it you guys suggest should be done as regards Islam
Well I don't know, but the ability to talk openly and honestly is a crucial first step. I know what shouldn't be done, and that is apologetics and excuse-making. The Reformation didn't and couldn't occur like that.
The Reformation also didn't occur because a bunch of Muslims, Jews and far-from-home Hindus slipped into European capitals with sage advice for updating the Church of Rome. It was an inside job.

You're not an insider in this case and neither am I.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

Were they reading a different Quran?

As I said in another post, politics - the actions of the powerful and not-so-powerful in the real world - is the driver and modern-day jihadism is the vehicle. There an easy-to-grasp explanation for why Chechnya began producing rather too many dangerous and fúcked-up people after a particular point in time, and that point in time wasn't the first edition of the Quran hit the shelves. It was when the first Russian bombs and shells began hitting the Chechen capital.
Well they’re certainly being given a very different interpretation.

I’m on your page it’s a recruitment tool.

I’m not on your page that the wider community hasn’t also got some responsibility. And also the Islam brotherhood invented version of “islamaphobia” should be accepted.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

MungoMan wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:24 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:02 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:54 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
What is it you guys suggest should be done as regards Islam
Well I don't know, but the ability to talk openly and honestly is a crucial first step. I know what shouldn't be done, and that is apologetics and excuse-making. The Reformation didn't and couldn't occur like that.
The Reformation also didn't occur because a bunch of Muslims, Jews and far-from-home Hindus slipped into European capitals with sage advice for updating the Church of Rome. It was an inside job.

You're not an insider in this case and neither am I.
Yes, that is true. But the secular west falling over themselves to make excuses on the behalf of conservative religion doesn't help at all either. We don't need our leaders donning head-scarves out of "respect" (such as the all-women Swedish envoy to Iran did recently) or newspapers refusing to publish cartoons for the same reason (either that or just fear), or Sports Illustrated releasing a "hijab pin-up" (how f-cking absurd). Normalizing that type of shit doesn't help.

And we certainly don't need howls of "bigot" and "racist" --- often directed at actual brown-skinned ex Muslims like Majeed Nawaz and Ayan Hirsi Ali --- whenever they voice a critical view of the faith, coming predominantly from secular, white justice warriors. That is just craziness.

So to answer the question, that's what not to do at least.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Farva »

MOG, are you complaining about the Swedish envoy to Iran following their customs when in their country? We want people coming to our country to do that. That is a pretty heavy premise of this thread.
Don’t be absurd.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am MOG, are you complaining about the Swedish envoy to Iran following their customs when in their country? We want people coming to our country to do that. That is a pretty heavy premise of this thread.
Don’t be absurd.


It might be worth discussing a countries “customs” in the 21st century. In the case of Iran these “customs” are rather new.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am MOG, are you complaining about the Swedish envoy to Iran following their customs when in their country? We want people coming to our country to do that. That is a pretty heavy premise of this thread.
Don’t be absurd.
If that was true, it would be good. No hijabs and women dressed in black bags in either Australia or Sweden, it's a blatant sign of female oppression. We do that, really? Good.

I'm pretty sure none of those Swedush women were Islamic. Dressing up in Islamic modesty suites out of "respect" is simply respecting iron-aged sexism.

And as bimbo rightly points out, it wasn't even common in Iran until the Theocratic Islamists took over.
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eldanielfire
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by eldanielfire »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:54 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
What is it you guys suggest should be done as regards Islam
There is no easy answer. But the toxic influence of Saudi Arabia is a huge factor.

-Well like some European countries I'd penalize and ban those extreme Saudi Iman's preaching wahhabism.
-I'd use for foreign aid budget, boost it up a bit and focus it almost entirely on the education of women. This is probably the single and biggest positive change you can make to many shit holes. It improves the economy, moderates the culture and lowers population growth.
-Make immigration to the UK more balanced. Ensure the distribution of house is more even so ghettos aren't made and integration into British culture is easier and more natural.
-Female oppression needs to be taken more seriously. In Iran the 1970's looked more modern than today. Same for Afgahistan. All tdue to Islamic revolutions the people didn't want and don't want today. Provide support to those countries to move out the infulence of these Islamic leaders.

-As I pointed out before, the west as a whole have a weird need to tactically support or ignore any of Saudi Arabia's wars or shenanigans. Weird how even in Syria the west seemed so keen to support ISIS early on, knowing they were foreign Enemies to Syria and made-up of various anti-western terrorist groups back by Saudi's who want Syria to heel. Yet Obama and the media seemed so keen to present them as heroic rebels early on. Remember Macron telling the Saudi Prince he's trying to help him out after they killed that journalist in Turkey? Don't get me started on Yemen. This seems to be a trend of lots of our middle eastern war/intervention, it suits Saudis geopolitical goals, it creates extremism and reduces the wealth of the region. This culture of pleasing Saudi Arabia among world leaders must stop and be called out more often and opposed. Could be helped by forcing a big shift away from oil dependence.

-Promote role models like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Tragically the nutty left seem to despise her these days.
-Support the security of secular states with large Islamic populations so they can tackle extremism and terrorism.
-Lesson immigration. Make integration an essential component of how immigration levels is determined. Denmark seems to be leading the way here. Perhaps less immigration and more refugee support.
-Oh yes and hammer the culture that criticism of Islam is racist. It's idiotic, if Monty Python made a Life of Brian on Islam it would be deem bigoted. This toxic culture or appropriating racism to avoid honest debate is a terrible thing.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Farva »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:29 am
Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am MOG, are you complaining about the Swedish envoy to Iran following their customs when in their country? We want people coming to our country to do that. That is a pretty heavy premise of this thread.
Don’t be absurd.
If that was true, it would be good. No hijabs and women dressed in black bags in either Australia or Sweden, it's a blatant sign of female oppression. We do that, really? Good.

I'm pretty sure none of those Swedush women were Islamic. Dressing up in Islamic modesty suites out of "respect" is simply respecting iron-aged sexism.

And as bimbo rightly points out, it wasn't even common in Iran until the Theocratic Islamists took over.
They were going to another country that has a pretty clear position on head dress.
I don’t agree with it but it’s their country. The Swedish went there. Therefore, they wear the head dress.

In Australia, no one cares whether you wear a head dress. It’s someone’s choice.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Gwenno »

I don’t think that the non Muslim world is powerful or united enough to eradicate the religion, nor repatriate its followers. Pointing out to non Muslims that that the religion is nonsense and barbaric isn’t particularly helpful, as we already know that, and the act of pointing it out doesn’t change the mind of the die hards, but it certainly inflames them. What if all secular countries as a policy stopped ALL faith schools, including any religious ceremonies within the school, while being tolerant of any religious teaching outside of school time? It would remove any accusations of favouritism towards Christianity, for a start. As for free speech, this may be a right, but it is impossible to defend 100%, as a lot of evidence shows, and people need to realise this. It’s true that people have no right to be offended, but they still get offended, and will still retaliate.
If we have a truly tolerant society that allows all religions to be practiced, but that also make education compulsory, then we can’t have one state religion (ie Christianity in the UK) that permeates through primary and secondary education, while not allowing other religions the same right - so take all religion out of schools.
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message #2527204
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by message #2527204 »

That's great. But the 'secular' West is largely Christian West, and multiculturalism supports its vested interest i.e. religious people are special people.

Integration doesn't have to mean assimilation, but it certainly starts in school. Getting religion out of state schools has to be the starting point for preventing ghettoisation and future conflict.

And who do we have in charge of Education? A card carrying fuckwit like Williamson who wants state funded religious academies countrywide,

edit: this was a response to Ika's post, not Gwenno.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:47 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:29 am
Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am MOG, are you complaining about the Swedish envoy to Iran following their customs when in their country? We want people coming to our country to do that. That is a pretty heavy premise of this thread.
Don’t be absurd.
If that was true, it would be good. No hijabs and women dressed in black bags in either Australia or Sweden, it's a blatant sign of female oppression. We do that, really? Good.

I'm pretty sure none of those Swedush women were Islamic. Dressing up in Islamic modesty suites out of "respect" is simply respecting iron-aged sexism.

And as bimbo rightly points out, it wasn't even common in Iran until the Theocratic Islamists took over.
They were going to another country that has a pretty clear position on head dress.
I don’t agree with it but it’s their country. The Swedish went there. Therefore, they wear the head dress.

In Australia, no one cares whether you wear a head dress. It’s someone’s choice.

They also have an abhorrent view regarding homosexuality, should we only send straight diplomats and politicians?
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Santa »

Funny thing is when western counties try to impose no burkha type legislation they are branded as racist.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by CrazyIslander »

Gwenno wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:59 am I don’t think that the non Muslim world is powerful or united enough to eradicate the religion, nor repatriate its followers. Pointing out to non Muslims that that the religion is nonsense and barbaric isn’t particularly helpful, as we already know that, and the act of pointing it out doesn’t change the mind of the die hards, but it certainly inflames them. What if all secular countries as a policy stopped ALL faith schools, including any religious ceremonies within the school, while being tolerant of any religious teaching outside of school time? It would remove any accusations of favouritism towards Christianity, for a start. As for free speech, this may be a right, but it is impossible to defend 100%, as a lot of evidence shows, and people need to realise this. It’s true that people have no right to be offended, but they still get offended, and will still retaliate.
If we have a truly tolerant society that allows all religions to be practiced, but that also make education compulsory, then we can’t have one state religion (ie Christianity in the UK) that permeates through primary and secondary education, while not allowing other religions the same right - so take all religion out of schools.
Unfortunately, the measures to curb Islam would have to be drastic to be effective. The least violent/oppressive way is blunt public meesages from the top on what is acceptable behaviour. Directly, telling Muslims that cartoons of Muhammed is acceptable, they must accept it - non negotiable. Along with other issues. The rest of the public should press the issue on the Muslim community. Obviously they might react violently which you'd in turn use the army etc etc etc.

It's a disaster tbh.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

Gwenno wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:59 am I don’t think that the non Muslim world is powerful or united enough to eradicate the religion, nor repatriate its followers. Pointing out to non Muslims that that the religion is nonsense and barbaric isn’t particularly helpful, as we already know that, and the act of pointing it out doesn’t change the mind of the die hards, but it certainly inflames them.
I disagree. Speaking honestly about it is useful, it does help and encourage people make brave decisions to break free, and it does have a cumilitave effect over time. It is helpful, even if it comes with howls of protest, paradoxically both from the fringe secular left and the fringe religious right.

I would say that speaking about it in a spittle-flinging, vitriolic type manner is not helpful. But nobody is suggesting that. The problem is that in the present anti-scientific, anti-rational political landscape (on both sides of politics), we're about things such as banning the world's most pre-eminent evolutionary biologist from speaking in Western, secular Universities because he is critical of Islam. That is certainly unhelpful, backwards, counter-productive and stupid.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:47 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:29 am
Farva wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:22 am MOG, are you complaining about the Swedish envoy to Iran following their customs when in their country? We want people coming to our country to do that. That is a pretty heavy premise of this thread.
Don’t be absurd.
If that was true, it would be good. No hijabs and women dressed in black bags in either Australia or Sweden, it's a blatant sign of female oppression. We do that, really? Good.

I'm pretty sure none of those Swedush women were Islamic. Dressing up in Islamic modesty suites out of "respect" is simply respecting iron-aged sexism.

And as bimbo rightly points out, it wasn't even common in Iran until the Theocratic Islamists took over.
They were going to another country that has a pretty clear position on head dress.
I don’t agree with it but it’s their country. The Swedish went there. Therefore, they wear the head dress.

In Australia, no one cares whether you wear a head dress. It’s someone’s choice.
People want to fit in and I think more often than not they are expected to wear it in their household/community.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Heymans »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:36 am
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
x(
Stay out if it simpleton, you don't have the mental capacity for that shit.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by mightyreds »

Another terrifying reminder of what become routing events when you allow immigration in huge numbers of a religious group incompatible with Western society.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Heymans »

MungoMan wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:51 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:36 am
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation,
or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
x(
This is monumentally stupid shit, in particular the stuff in bold. In effect, it is saying that what people do is not all that material, the problem is people are thinking wrong thoughts.

One difficulty arising here is that most rational people truly do think others' actions are a damned sight more important than others' thoughts, since actions can be observed whereas thoughts not leading to actions cannot. One dead teacher vs. no dead teacher. Yeah, there may be a fella out there somewhere thinking about killing him or at least thinking the bugger deserves to die, but what to do? Mind-reading isn't exactly mature tech ...

The other difficulty relates to the explanatory power of the argument that the Quran leads to terrorism and other large-scale noxious shit as naturally and automatically as beer leads to a swollen bladder. That can be tested against observed actions as well. And it fails the test. I'm old enough to recall when fúck-all people would think 'terrorist' or 'extremist' when another said Muslim, for the simple reason that there was fúck-all Islamic terrorism actually occurring. For example, Chechens weren't cutting heads off in France or letting off bombs in the US.

Were they reading a different Quran?

As I said in another post, politics - the actions of the powerful and not-so-powerful in the real world - is the driver and modern-day jihadism is the vehicle. There an easy-to-grasp explanation for why Chechnya began producing rather too many dangerous and fúcked-up people after a particular point in time, and that point in time wasn't the first edition of the Quran hit the shelves. It was when the first Russian bombs and shells began hitting the Chechen capital.
Do yuo have any factual counter argument? Apart from saying its horseshit and you little heart being sad?
Show me the extremist quran. It doesn't exist, its the same one the "moderates" are using. Have the extremists invented concepts that aren't in the quran? No, the quran is already very clear about apostates,christians, jews and, worse than dogs, miscreants. Hve the extremists gone beyond what the book say? Again, no.
Give me you factual counter arguments or go fudge yourself.

It fails the test, you say? Really? There has been pretty much continous war and violence in the Islamic cultural area since the religion was born. Even today, you will find that pretty much all corners of the islamic world are either in a war of guerilla/terroist activity. There isn't ONE democratic muslim country. NOT one. You know why? Because ISLAM IS A VIOLENT, backwards RELIGION.
Again for the 3rd time, its in the book, the guys aren't inventing anything.
Last edited by Heymans on Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Varsity Way
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Varsity Way »

It's up to the Muslims to sort their toxic hard core out or close all Mosques.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by CrazyIslander »

Varsity Way wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:57 pm It's up to the Muslims to sort their toxic hard core out or close all Mosques.
Or what?
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