French terror attacks.

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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

eldanielfire wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:56 am Well, German courts aren't f**king about and tip toeing around the issue:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/1 ... gniter-rhr

German court rules Muslim who refused to shake woman's hand should not receive citizenship
The man had an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration, having received the highest score on his citizenship test

A German court has ruled that a Muslim doctor should not be granted citizenship after he refused to shake hands with the woman presenting him with his naturalisation certificate.

According to the administrative court of Baden-Württemberg, the Lebanese man had forgone his right to become German because his refusal to shake the bureaucrat’s hand was evidence that he saw her as “posing the threat of sexual seduction.”

The judges explained that obtaining German citizenship was dependent on the applicant being able to demonstrate that he lived according to the values set out in the German constitution, which enshrines sexual equality.

A handshake “has a long tradition of signalling greeting or saying farewell that exists irrespective of social status or sex,” the ruling stated. “Although there are other recognised greetings in Germany, such as kissing or a 'high five,' the handshake holds a special importance” because of its formal use in the completion of a business transaction and as a signal of agreement in certain courts, the judges added.

The incident occurred in 2015 at a citizenship ceremony that was supposed to be a simple formality after the man had obtained the highest possible score in his citizenship test, an exam that probes how well immigrants understand German history and its democratic values.

When the female bureaucrat offered her hand and he declined to shake it, she refused to hand over his certificate. The 40-year-old has an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration. He moved to the country as a language student in 2002 before qualifying as a doctor and then working his way up to the position of consultant physician at a hospital in southern Germany.

To support his case, he said that he had made a promise to his wife never to touch another woman. But the court remained unswayed, describing his actions as “fundamentalist” and reflective of “a Salafist worldview.”

The judges were also unimpressed by a statement he made to the effect that he would not shake anyone’s hand in the future, be it a male or a female.

Making clear that the handshake would outlive current pandemic restrictions, the judges said that the man would have to use the gesture in the future in order to carry out important societal functions. It added that it saw his concession on not shaking anyone’s hand as a purely tactical move.

The man now has the chance to dispute the ruling at the federal level, his last chance to have the decision overturned.

Hand shaking has proven to be one of the most sensitive issues in the integration of a growing number of conservative Muslim migrants in Europe. Authorities in several countries now penalise those who refuse to use the gesture.

In 2016 education authorities in Switzerland imposed fines up to €4,000 (£3,600) on parents who refused to shake teachers’ hands, arguing that teachers have a right to demand a handshake.

Danish law has required people to shake the hands of administrators at citizenship ceremonies since early 2019. Critics there have called it “un-Danish” to force a local custom on someone, rather than encouraging them to conform.

The dispute over handshakes in Germany comes after a school in Berlin was forced to apologise after one of its teachers called an imam “a misogynist” when he failed to shake her hand in 2016.
Well fair enough.

Especially if you're one of those people who, on the last few pages of this thread, was arguing we should adhere to their archaic iron-aged moral code when in their country.

Meanwhile, in Sweden, home to the wokest-of-woke SJWs, a Muslim who refused to shake hands with anyone of the opposite sex in a job interview, and subsequently did not get the job, was compensated by the court to the tune of thousands of dollars and went on to make a tearful social media campaign about it.

Do people who believe we should obey their sexist laws in their countries also think they should be exempt from our laws prohibiting sexism?
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Harveys
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Harveys »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:42 am
Harveys wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:58 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:54 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:19 pm My issues is, why does the left today have such a blind spot for the religion? I guess in many left wingers, because the right post 9/11 open take on the religion, they feel instinctively the need to oppose the right wing position, hence the rather contradictory acceptance of Islam and blindness to it's influence while espousing liberal views and opposing anyone else who doesn't have them.
If there was some some iron-aged, ultra-conservative, sexist, homophobic, violent political doctrine that was spread amoung all cultures on earth equally, and you said, "but don't worry, only a minority of the people who believe that ideology actually enact the violence that it recommends, most of them ignore that part", I think the left would be absolutely scathing in their attack of that ideology.

Can you imagine these excuses in the political realm:

"Well they shouldn't have drawn a cartoon of that politician then if they didn't want to be beheaed"

"You know there are other political systems that have used violence in the past!"

"Most people who vote for that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology are moderates. They guy who gives me me coffee in the morning, for example, seems like a lovely chap"

"Not ALL people who vote for that politician behead people!"

"You know there are some quite beautiful aspects to that iron-aged, conservative, sexist, violent, homophobic political ideology that you're just ignoring"
For someone who likes to clap on about nuance when it suits you, your continued insistence that fundamentalists are the only “honest” Muslims because in your view only a completely literal interpretation can be taken from religious scripture is funny but not surprising given your bias.

You mindlessly regurgitate Sam Harris (I know this because I’ve listened to him and you repeat the same talking points) the same way religious folk mindlessly regurgitate their ideology all the while completely unaware of your own shadow.

It’s amusing.
If you don't think the Koran is intended to be taken literally, you're simply fooling yourself. Allah is not a moderate. The Koran is not codified. When they said chop the hands off of a theif, they meant literally chop the hands off of a theif, not whatever someone might want to acrobatically interpret that to mean to suite their 2020 agenda. If you choose to think they were talking about something else "in special code" then you're both stupid for believing in iron-aged supersition and lying to yourself.

The moral of the story is this: Abrahamic religion is a bunch of archaic horseshit that doesn't fit in an enlightened, educated culture. Surprise.

"It's amusing". Really? :uhoh: I don't think you're amused. I thinking you're seething. Because you're a small minded man that doesn't want his delusional ideologiy about "all religions are equal" or some other similar such patentable horse-shit to be challenged.

Many more people than Sam Harris have said similair things before I have. Virtually anyone who speaks honestly about the subject has said these things. Harris was not the original and I will not be the last. It's the obvious f-cking reality after all. So just f-ck off with your inane, condescending dribble you laughable twit.

I'll tell you what is "amusing": the fact that you think one would have to mindlessly parrot anybody else to figure out what is oh-so-obviously, self-evidently true. One needn't be a genius nor a neuroscientist to figure this shit out mate. I can only imagine how scrambled your brains must be.
The fact that you’re somewhat right, obviously, is mostly irrelevant given your ranting essentially excludes you from any serious “conversations” that might be helpful. You’re not the solution Mog, you’re three degrees from China.

That post is utter rubbish, well done.
backrow
Posts: 21806
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am

Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by backrow »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:56 am Well, German courts aren't f**king about and tip toeing around the issue:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/1 ... gniter-rhr

German court rules Muslim who refused to shake woman's hand should not receive citizenship
The man had an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration, having received the highest score on his citizenship test

A German court has ruled that a Muslim doctor should not be granted citizenship after he refused to shake hands with the woman presenting him with his naturalisation certificate.

According to the administrative court of Baden-Württemberg, the Lebanese man had forgone his right to become German because his refusal to shake the bureaucrat’s hand was evidence that he saw her as “posing the threat of sexual seduction.”

The judges explained that obtaining German citizenship was dependent on the applicant being able to demonstrate that he lived according to the values set out in the German constitution, which enshrines sexual equality.

A handshake “has a long tradition of signalling greeting or saying farewell that exists irrespective of social status or sex,” the ruling stated. “Although there are other recognised greetings in Germany, such as kissing or a 'high five,' the handshake holds a special importance” because of its formal use in the completion of a business transaction and as a signal of agreement in certain courts, the judges added.

The incident occurred in 2015 at a citizenship ceremony that was supposed to be a simple formality after the man had obtained the highest possible score in his citizenship test, an exam that probes how well immigrants understand German history and its democratic values.

When the female bureaucrat offered her hand and he declined to shake it, she refused to hand over his certificate. The 40-year-old has an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration. He moved to the country as a language student in 2002 before qualifying as a doctor and then working his way up to the position of consultant physician at a hospital in southern Germany.

To support his case, he said that he had made a promise to his wife never to touch another woman. But the court remained unswayed, describing his actions as “fundamentalist” and reflective of “a Salafist worldview.”

The judges were also unimpressed by a statement he made to the effect that he would not shake anyone’s hand in the future, be it a male or a female.

Making clear that the handshake would outlive current pandemic restrictions, the judges said that the man would have to use the gesture in the future in order to carry out important societal functions. It added that it saw his concession on not shaking anyone’s hand as a purely tactical move.

The man now has the chance to dispute the ruling at the federal level, his last chance to have the decision overturned.

Hand shaking has proven to be one of the most sensitive issues in the integration of a growing number of conservative Muslim migrants in Europe. Authorities in several countries now penalise those who refuse to use the gesture.

In 2016 education authorities in Switzerland imposed fines up to €4,000 (£3,600) on parents who refused to shake teachers’ hands, arguing that teachers have a right to demand a handshake.

Danish law has required people to shake the hands of administrators at citizenship ceremonies since early 2019. Critics there have called it “un-Danish” to force a local custom on someone, rather than encouraging them to conform.

The dispute over handshakes in Germany comes after a school in Berlin was forced to apologise after one of its teachers called an imam “a misogynist” when he failed to shake her hand in 2016.
Well fair enough.

Especially if you're one of those people who, on the last few pages of this thread, was arguing we should adhere to their archaic iron-aged moral code when in their country.

Meanwhile, in Sweden, home to the wokest-of-woke SJWs, a Muslim who refused to shake hands with anyone of the opposite sex in a job interview, and subsequently did not get the job, was compensated by the court to the tune of thousands of dollars and went on to make a tearful social media campaign about it.

Do people who believe we should obey their sexist laws in their countries also think they should be exempt from our laws prohibiting sexism?
If only there was a way that Swedish company could have avoided that happening.

Oh, wait ...
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ScarfaceClaw
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by ScarfaceClaw »

I’d be raging if I went for an interview in Sweden and there were no ladies in the interview.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

backrow wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:42 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:56 am Well, German courts aren't f**king about and tip toeing around the issue:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/1 ... gniter-rhr

German court rules Muslim who refused to shake woman's hand should not receive citizenship
The man had an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration, having received the highest score on his citizenship test

A German court has ruled that a Muslim doctor should not be granted citizenship after he refused to shake hands with the woman presenting him with his naturalisation certificate.

According to the administrative court of Baden-Württemberg, the Lebanese man had forgone his right to become German because his refusal to shake the bureaucrat’s hand was evidence that he saw her as “posing the threat of sexual seduction.”

The judges explained that obtaining German citizenship was dependent on the applicant being able to demonstrate that he lived according to the values set out in the German constitution, which enshrines sexual equality.

A handshake “has a long tradition of signalling greeting or saying farewell that exists irrespective of social status or sex,” the ruling stated. “Although there are other recognised greetings in Germany, such as kissing or a 'high five,' the handshake holds a special importance” because of its formal use in the completion of a business transaction and as a signal of agreement in certain courts, the judges added.

The incident occurred in 2015 at a citizenship ceremony that was supposed to be a simple formality after the man had obtained the highest possible score in his citizenship test, an exam that probes how well immigrants understand German history and its democratic values.

When the female bureaucrat offered her hand and he declined to shake it, she refused to hand over his certificate. The 40-year-old has an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration. He moved to the country as a language student in 2002 before qualifying as a doctor and then working his way up to the position of consultant physician at a hospital in southern Germany.

To support his case, he said that he had made a promise to his wife never to touch another woman. But the court remained unswayed, describing his actions as “fundamentalist” and reflective of “a Salafist worldview.”

The judges were also unimpressed by a statement he made to the effect that he would not shake anyone’s hand in the future, be it a male or a female.

Making clear that the handshake would outlive current pandemic restrictions, the judges said that the man would have to use the gesture in the future in order to carry out important societal functions. It added that it saw his concession on not shaking anyone’s hand as a purely tactical move.

The man now has the chance to dispute the ruling at the federal level, his last chance to have the decision overturned.

Hand shaking has proven to be one of the most sensitive issues in the integration of a growing number of conservative Muslim migrants in Europe. Authorities in several countries now penalise those who refuse to use the gesture.

In 2016 education authorities in Switzerland imposed fines up to €4,000 (£3,600) on parents who refused to shake teachers’ hands, arguing that teachers have a right to demand a handshake.

Danish law has required people to shake the hands of administrators at citizenship ceremonies since early 2019. Critics there have called it “un-Danish” to force a local custom on someone, rather than encouraging them to conform.

The dispute over handshakes in Germany comes after a school in Berlin was forced to apologise after one of its teachers called an imam “a misogynist” when he failed to shake her hand in 2016.
Well fair enough.

Especially if you're one of those people who, on the last few pages of this thread, was arguing we should adhere to their archaic iron-aged moral code when in their country.

Meanwhile, in Sweden, home to the wokest-of-woke SJWs, a Muslim who refused to shake hands with anyone of the opposite sex in a job interview, and subsequently did not get the job, was compensated by the court to the tune of thousands of dollars and went on to make a tearful social media campaign about it.

Do people who believe we should obey their sexist laws in their countries also think they should be exempt from our laws prohibiting sexism?
If only there was a way that Swedish company could have avoided that happening.

Oh, wait ...
Whats that? Cowtow to blatantly sexist foreign religious customs?
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earl the beaver
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by earl the beaver »

Christianity is "foreign" too Mog.
bimboman
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:54 pm Christianity is "foreign" too Mog.

Not where Mog is.
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earl the beaver
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by earl the beaver »

bimboman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:58 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:54 pm Christianity is "foreign" too Mog.

Not where Mog is.
Sweden?

Christianity is from the Middle East.

Religions don't have borders.
bimboman
Posts: 66461
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:58 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:54 pm Christianity is "foreign" too Mog.

Not where Mog is.
Sweden?

Christianity is from the Middle East.

Religions don't have borders.


Rome is in the Middle East ?
User avatar
earl the beaver
Posts: 51046
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Dirty Leeds

Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by earl the beaver »

bimboman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:24 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:58 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:54 pm Christianity is "foreign" too Mog.

Not where Mog is.
Sweden?

Christianity is from the Middle East.

Religions don't have borders.


Rome is in the Middle East ?
Rome is where Christianity originated?
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Short Man Syndrome
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

“Romanes eunt domus!”
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lorcanoworms
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by lorcanoworms »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:56 am Well, German courts aren't f**king about and tip toeing around the issue:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/1 ... gniter-rhr

German court rules Muslim who refused to shake woman's hand should not receive citizenship
The man had an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration, having received the highest score on his citizenship test

A German court has ruled that a Muslim doctor should not be granted citizenship after he refused to shake hands with the woman presenting him with his naturalisation certificate.

According to the administrative court of Baden-Württemberg, the Lebanese man had forgone his right to become German because his refusal to shake the bureaucrat’s hand was evidence that he saw her as “posing the threat of sexual seduction.”

The judges explained that obtaining German citizenship was dependent on the applicant being able to demonstrate that he lived according to the values set out in the German constitution, which enshrines sexual equality.

A handshake “has a long tradition of signalling greeting or saying farewell that exists irrespective of social status or sex,” the ruling stated. “Although there are other recognised greetings in Germany, such as kissing or a 'high five,' the handshake holds a special importance” because of its formal use in the completion of a business transaction and as a signal of agreement in certain courts, the judges added.

The incident occurred in 2015 at a citizenship ceremony that was supposed to be a simple formality after the man had obtained the highest possible score in his citizenship test, an exam that probes how well immigrants understand German history and its democratic values.

When the female bureaucrat offered her hand and he declined to shake it, she refused to hand over his certificate. The 40-year-old has an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration. He moved to the country as a language student in 2002 before qualifying as a doctor and then working his way up to the position of consultant physician at a hospital in southern Germany.

To support his case, he said that he had made a promise to his wife never to touch another woman. But the court remained unswayed, describing his actions as “fundamentalist” and reflective of “a Salafist worldview.”

The judges were also unimpressed by a statement he made to the effect that he would not shake anyone’s hand in the future, be it a male or a female.

Making clear that the handshake would outlive current pandemic restrictions, the judges said that the man would have to use the gesture in the future in order to carry out important societal functions. It added that it saw his concession on not shaking anyone’s hand as a purely tactical move.

The man now has the chance to dispute the ruling at the federal level, his last chance to have the decision overturned.

Hand shaking has proven to be one of the most sensitive issues in the integration of a growing number of conservative Muslim migrants in Europe. Authorities in several countries now penalise those who refuse to use the gesture.

In 2016 education authorities in Switzerland imposed fines up to €4,000 (£3,600) on parents who refused to shake teachers’ hands, arguing that teachers have a right to demand a handshake.

Danish law has required people to shake the hands of administrators at citizenship ceremonies since early 2019. Critics there have called it “un-Danish” to force a local custom on someone, rather than encouraging them to conform.

The dispute over handshakes in Germany comes after a school in Berlin was forced to apologise after one of its teachers called an imam “a misogynist” when he failed to shake her hand in 2016.
Well fair enough.

Especially if you're one of those people who, on the last few pages of this thread, was arguing we should adhere to their archaic iron-aged moral code when in their country.

Meanwhile, in Sweden, home to the wokest-of-woke SJWs, a Muslim who refused to shake hands with anyone of the opposite sex in a job interview, and subsequently did not get the job, was compensated by the court to the tune of thousands of dollars and went on to make a tearful social media campaign about it.

Do people who believe we should obey their sexist laws in their countries also think they should be exempt from our laws prohibiting sexism?
Posted before about a Muslim lady in England who did not get a job she claimed as a hairdresser because she showed photos of women in headscarves as examples of her work.
She got compo.
backrow
Posts: 21806
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by backrow »

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:45 pm I’d be raging if I went for an interview in Sweden and there were no ladies in the interview.
This.

Sven walks into the interview - only this is an interview with a difference !
Boom chicka waaaa waaaaa

*unziiiiiiiiiiiiiiip*
iarmhiman
Posts: 40185
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by iarmhiman »

bimboman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:24 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:10 pm
bimboman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:58 pm
earl the beaver wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:54 pm Christianity is "foreign" too Mog.

Not where Mog is.
Sweden?

Christianity is from the Middle East.

Religions don't have borders.


Rome is in the Middle East ?
You need to go back before that. Followers of Jesus existed before St Peter was supposedly executed in Rome
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Mog The Almighty
Posts: 12294
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Location: Stockholm

Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

lorcanoworms wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:49 pm
Mog The Almighty wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:10 am
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:56 am Well, German courts aren't f**king about and tip toeing around the issue:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/1 ... gniter-rhr

German court rules Muslim who refused to shake woman's hand should not receive citizenship
The man had an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration, having received the highest score on his citizenship test

A German court has ruled that a Muslim doctor should not be granted citizenship after he refused to shake hands with the woman presenting him with his naturalisation certificate.

According to the administrative court of Baden-Württemberg, the Lebanese man had forgone his right to become German because his refusal to shake the bureaucrat’s hand was evidence that he saw her as “posing the threat of sexual seduction.”

The judges explained that obtaining German citizenship was dependent on the applicant being able to demonstrate that he lived according to the values set out in the German constitution, which enshrines sexual equality.

A handshake “has a long tradition of signalling greeting or saying farewell that exists irrespective of social status or sex,” the ruling stated. “Although there are other recognised greetings in Germany, such as kissing or a 'high five,' the handshake holds a special importance” because of its formal use in the completion of a business transaction and as a signal of agreement in certain courts, the judges added.

The incident occurred in 2015 at a citizenship ceremony that was supposed to be a simple formality after the man had obtained the highest possible score in his citizenship test, an exam that probes how well immigrants understand German history and its democratic values.

When the female bureaucrat offered her hand and he declined to shake it, she refused to hand over his certificate. The 40-year-old has an otherwise impeccable record of successful integration. He moved to the country as a language student in 2002 before qualifying as a doctor and then working his way up to the position of consultant physician at a hospital in southern Germany.

To support his case, he said that he had made a promise to his wife never to touch another woman. But the court remained unswayed, describing his actions as “fundamentalist” and reflective of “a Salafist worldview.”

The judges were also unimpressed by a statement he made to the effect that he would not shake anyone’s hand in the future, be it a male or a female.

Making clear that the handshake would outlive current pandemic restrictions, the judges said that the man would have to use the gesture in the future in order to carry out important societal functions. It added that it saw his concession on not shaking anyone’s hand as a purely tactical move.

The man now has the chance to dispute the ruling at the federal level, his last chance to have the decision overturned.

Hand shaking has proven to be one of the most sensitive issues in the integration of a growing number of conservative Muslim migrants in Europe. Authorities in several countries now penalise those who refuse to use the gesture.

In 2016 education authorities in Switzerland imposed fines up to €4,000 (£3,600) on parents who refused to shake teachers’ hands, arguing that teachers have a right to demand a handshake.

Danish law has required people to shake the hands of administrators at citizenship ceremonies since early 2019. Critics there have called it “un-Danish” to force a local custom on someone, rather than encouraging them to conform.

The dispute over handshakes in Germany comes after a school in Berlin was forced to apologise after one of its teachers called an imam “a misogynist” when he failed to shake her hand in 2016.
Well fair enough.

Especially if you're one of those people who, on the last few pages of this thread, was arguing we should adhere to their archaic iron-aged moral code when in their country.

Meanwhile, in Sweden, home to the wokest-of-woke SJWs, a Muslim who refused to shake hands with anyone of the opposite sex in a job interview, and subsequently did not get the job, was compensated by the court to the tune of thousands of dollars and went on to make a tearful social media campaign about it.

Do people who believe we should obey their sexist laws in their countries also think they should be exempt from our laws prohibiting sexism?
Posted before about a Muslim lady in England who did not get a job she claimed as a hairdresser because she showed photos of women in headscarves as examples of her work.
She got compo.
That can't be real.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Anonymous 1 »

All this talk of their countries and our countries is pathetic. Many millions of Muslims are European born so our countries are their countries. Get over it
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Clogs
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Clogs »

Not sure if this bit is true?
Details of the attack and investigation were given by the anti-terrorism state prosecutor, Jean-François Ricard.

He named the suspect as Abdoulakh A. - an 18-year-old man, born in Moscow of Chechen origin. He came to France with refugee status as a boy and was unknown to anti-terrorism police.
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6.Jones
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

message #2527204 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:27 pm
6.Jones wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:14 pm Education, rationality and science are usually presented diplomatically, if for no other reason than that's how you change people's minds.
Agreed. I wonder if threats of repatriation and advice to leave your outdated mediaeval opinions at the door is considered diplomatic?
As an answer to the celebration of someone beng beheaded in the street for showing some shit, unfunny cartoons?

How do we go about it when we still have bloody bishops in the HoL and Williamson dead-set on expanding religious privilege in our kids schooling? Still have religious exceptions allowed in anti-discrimination laws? Still have the scottish parliament trying to extend blasphemy laws to cover all the special people of faith?
No one is saying that diplomacy is the only form of action. If our desire is to reduce terrorism, we need a mixture of an aggressive response to the terrorists and their supporters, and a sympathetic approach to the people whose help we need to stop them. Those are standard counterinsurgency tactics.
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Mog The Almighty
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am
message #2527204 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:27 pm
6.Jones wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:14 pm Education, rationality and science are usually presented diplomatically, if for no other reason than that's how you change people's minds.
Agreed. I wonder if threats of repatriation and advice to leave your outdated mediaeval opinions at the door is considered diplomatic?
As an answer to the celebration of someone beng beheaded in the street for showing some shit, unfunny cartoons?

How do we go about it when we still have bloody bishops in the HoL and Williamson dead-set on expanding religious privilege in our kids schooling? Still have religious exceptions allowed in anti-discrimination laws? Still have the scottish parliament trying to extend blasphemy laws to cover all the special people of faith?
No one is saying that diplomacy is the only form of action. If our desire is to reduce terrorism, we need a mixture of an aggressive response to the terrorists and their supporters, and a sympathetic approach to the people whose help we need to stop them. Those are standard counterinsurgency tactics.
Isn't that what we have been trying?

Is banning Richard Dawkins from speaking at Trinity College part of that "sympathetic approach"?
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:28 am
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am
message #2527204 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:27 pm
6.Jones wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:14 pm Education, rationality and science are usually presented diplomatically, if for no other reason than that's how you change people's minds.
Agreed. I wonder if threats of repatriation and advice to leave your outdated mediaeval opinions at the door is considered diplomatic?
As an answer to the celebration of someone beng beheaded in the street for showing some shit, unfunny cartoons?

How do we go about it when we still have bloody bishops in the HoL and Williamson dead-set on expanding religious privilege in our kids schooling? Still have religious exceptions allowed in anti-discrimination laws? Still have the scottish parliament trying to extend blasphemy laws to cover all the special people of faith?
No one is saying that diplomacy is the only form of action. If our desire is to reduce terrorism, we need a mixture of an aggressive response to the terrorists and their supporters, and a sympathetic approach to the people whose help we need to stop them. Those are standard counterinsurgency tactics.
Isn't that what we have been trying?

Is banning Richard Dawkins from speaking at Trinity College part of that "sympathetic approach"?
Yes to your first question [we have indeed been trying that tactic, especially in Europe where it matters the most] and no to your second [Banning Dawkins - or anyone short of actual terrorists - is a mistake. It plays into the terrorist's hands by limiting our freedoms and setting people's opinions in the closed position.]
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:21 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:28 am
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am
message #2527204 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 pm
Gwenno wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:27 pm

Agreed. I wonder if threats of repatriation and advice to leave your outdated mediaeval opinions at the door is considered diplomatic?
As an answer to the celebration of someone beng beheaded in the street for showing some shit, unfunny cartoons?

How do we go about it when we still have bloody bishops in the HoL and Williamson dead-set on expanding religious privilege in our kids schooling? Still have religious exceptions allowed in anti-discrimination laws? Still have the scottish parliament trying to extend blasphemy laws to cover all the special people of faith?
No one is saying that diplomacy is the only form of action. If our desire is to reduce terrorism, we need a mixture of an aggressive response to the terrorists and their supporters, and a sympathetic approach to the people whose help we need to stop them. Those are standard counterinsurgency tactics.
Isn't that what we have been trying?

Is banning Richard Dawkins from speaking at Trinity College part of that "sympathetic approach"?
Yes to your first question [we have indeed been trying that tactic, especially in Europe where it matters the most] and no to your second [Banning Dawkins - or anyone short of actual terrorists - is a mistake. It plays into the terrorist's hands by limiting our freedoms and setting people's opinions in the closed position.]
I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

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Clogs wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:52 am Not sure if this bit is true?
Details of the attack and investigation were given by the anti-terrorism state prosecutor, Jean-François Ricard.

He named the suspect as Abdoulakh A. - an 18-year-old man, born in Moscow of Chechen origin. He came to France with refugee status as a boy and was unknown to anti-terrorism police.
Reuters reports he was Russian-born of Chechen parentage and entered France as a refugee. Another press report mentions he finished school in France, so it’s a reasonable assumption he was a minor when he arrived.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.
Last edited by 6.Jones on Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by danny_fitz »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:21 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:28 am
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am
message #2527204 wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:49 pm

As an answer to the celebration of someone beng beheaded in the street for showing some shit, unfunny cartoons?

How do we go about it when we still have bloody bishops in the HoL and Williamson dead-set on expanding religious privilege in our kids schooling? Still have religious exceptions allowed in anti-discrimination laws? Still have the scottish parliament trying to extend blasphemy laws to cover all the special people of faith?
No one is saying that diplomacy is the only form of action. If our desire is to reduce terrorism, we need a mixture of an aggressive response to the terrorists and their supporters, and a sympathetic approach to the people whose help we need to stop them. Those are standard counterinsurgency tactics.
Isn't that what we have been trying?

Is banning Richard Dawkins from speaking at Trinity College part of that "sympathetic approach"?
Yes to your first question [we have indeed been trying that tactic, especially in Europe where it matters the most] and no to your second [Banning Dawkins - or anyone short of actual terrorists - is a mistake. It plays into the terrorist's hands by limiting our freedoms and setting people's opinions in the closed position.]
I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
Macron is rolling out plans that involve an end to the hosting of imams from countries such as Turkey and Algeria, and more rigorous control on foreign financing of mosques from the likes of Qatar and Saudi. It's a start I guess but all a bit late really given that the French state has turned a blind eye to this malign influence for the best part of two decades. A leaked French security report suggests there are over 150 districts now under the control of Islamist extremists. Their influence was laid bare in a 2016 survey that found that half of French Muslims under the age of 25 would prefer to live under Sharia law to Republican. It has similar echo's to the BBC survey several years ago that had a depressingly high number of British Muslims who had similar attitudes to Sharia law, women wearing a veil, kids being educated in Islamic schools and the banning of homosexuality. The additional problem is that in both the UK and France the left in their desperate need for votes have been happy to give the Islamists a platform if means enhancing their election prospects.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by xbgo1 »

Farva wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:31 pm
Heymans wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:24 am And to all the islam apologists I say this:

there is nothing in islamism that isn't in islam. These guys aren't inventing anything, it's all in the book. There is no moderate muslim, like there is no moderate pregnant women. You either believe the quran is the literal word of god, in case you're in the loony camp, or you don't.
th only difference between moderates and extremists, between islam and islamism is action, as in actually killing miscreants.
There is no ideological separation, or watershed or anything like that. There is nothing moderate about believing a book is the literal word of god, if that was about literally anything else it would be classified as a mental illness.
I don't give a shit that the majority of muslims are law abiding citizen, so is most of everyone else. Only muslims behead people for shit like that in France right now. These people are a cancer and they can get f**ked with their stupid shit.
I have absolutely no issue with saying this was an act of Islamic terrorism. The perpetrator did it because they were an extremist who wanted to get justification for their religion. I hope they are tried and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And ditto to anyone who supported them.

But this post is complete horseshit.
The bloke I bought a coffee off today (and served me a couple of times a week) who is An Egyptian Muslim, or my barber who is a Kuwaiti Muslim, are certainly moderates.
Your post is bigoted, nothing else.

According to The Guardian 52% of muslims in the UK think Homosexuality' should be illegal, 47% said Gays shouldnt be teachers, even the moderates seem a little extreme
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Mog The Almighty »

danny_fitz wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:12 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:21 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:28 am
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am
No one is saying that diplomacy is the only form of action. If our desire is to reduce terrorism, we need a mixture of an aggressive response to the terrorists and their supporters, and a sympathetic approach to the people whose help we need to stop them. Those are standard counterinsurgency tactics.
Isn't that what we have been trying?

Is banning Richard Dawkins from speaking at Trinity College part of that "sympathetic approach"?
Yes to your first question [we have indeed been trying that tactic, especially in Europe where it matters the most] and no to your second [Banning Dawkins - or anyone short of actual terrorists - is a mistake. It plays into the terrorist's hands by limiting our freedoms and setting people's opinions in the closed position.]
I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
Macron is rolling out plans that involve an end to the hosting of imams from countries such as Turkey and Algeria, and more rigorous control on foreign financing of mosques from the likes of Qatar and Saudi.
Really? Good ... but out of curiosity, what's your source on this? Reason is, I want to forward it to a friend, and they will almost certainly ask where I'm getting it from. "Anonymous rugby forum" won't cut the mustard.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by MungoMan »

6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.
Depends which Islamists you mean and how long they stay in character, so to speak. After all, the victorious Viets formed a government (the successors of which still hold power) and kicked the shit out of bad neighbours Pol Pot and Ieng Sary along the way.

Admittedly, the likes of the Iranian beardocracy were able to form something able to govern a country. But the likes of ISIS? See Mad Max 2, original version.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

MungoMan wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:02 am
Clogs wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:52 am Not sure if this bit is true?
Details of the attack and investigation were given by the anti-terrorism state prosecutor, Jean-François Ricard.

He named the suspect as Abdoulakh A. - an 18-year-old man, born in Moscow of Chechen origin. He came to France with refugee status as a boy and was unknown to anti-terrorism police.
Reuters reports he was Russian-born of Chechen parentage and entered France as a refugee. Another press report mentions he finished school in France, so it’s a reasonable assumption he was a minor when he arrived.


A French court over ruled its immigration service who had rejected the boy’s asylum claim.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by bimboman »

6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.


Bombing under Trump has fallen dramatically.... have things improved?
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by MungoMan »

bimboman wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pm
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.


Bombing under Trump has fallen dramatically.... have things improved?
The bomb index has plummeted.

Nah yeah Trump made it clear before his election that playing soldiers was nothing like a priority and this have proven to be so.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Clouseau »

bimboman wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:26 pm
MungoMan wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:02 am
Clogs wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:52 am Not sure if this bit is true?
Details of the attack and investigation were given by the anti-terrorism state prosecutor, Jean-François Ricard.

He named the suspect as Abdoulakh A. - an 18-year-old man, born in Moscow of Chechen origin. He came to France with refugee status as a boy and was unknown to anti-terrorism police.
Reuters reports he was Russian-born of Chechen parentage and entered France as a refugee. Another press report mentions he finished school in France, so it’s a reasonable assumption he was a minor when he arrived.


A French court over ruled its immigration service who had rejected the boy’s asylum claim.
Source please.
Many thanks.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by danny_fitz »

Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:36 am Really? Good ... but out of curiosity, what's your source on this? Reason is, I want to forward it to a friend, and they will almost certainly ask where I'm getting it from. "Anonymous rugby forum" won't cut the mustard.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can ... extremism-
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Heymans »

Clouseau wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:43 pm
bimboman wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:26 pm
MungoMan wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:02 am
Clogs wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:52 am Not sure if this bit is true?
Details of the attack and investigation were given by the anti-terrorism state prosecutor, Jean-François Ricard.

He named the suspect as Abdoulakh A. - an 18-year-old man, born in Moscow of Chechen origin. He came to France with refugee status as a boy and was unknown to anti-terrorism police.
Reuters reports he was Russian-born of Chechen parentage and entered France as a refugee. Another press report mentions he finished school in France, so it’s a reasonable assumption he was a minor when he arrived.


A French court over ruled its immigration service who had rejected the boy’s asylum claim.
Source please.
Many thanks.
Je l'ai vu dans un article du monde, tu devrais trouve facilement avec google.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by Clouseau »

Heymans wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:29 pm Je l'ai vu dans un article du monde, tu devrais trouve facilement avec google.
Yep trouvé (Figaro). Merci.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

MungoMan wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:00 pm
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.
Depends which Islamists you mean and how long they stay in character, so to speak. After all, the victorious Viets formed a government (the successors of which still hold power) and kicked the shit out of bad neighbours Pol Pot and Ieng Sary along the way.

Admittedly, the likes of the Iranian beardocracy were able to form something able to govern a country. But the likes of ISIS? See Mad Max 2, original version.
Absolutely. The Viet Cong are the perfect example of what can happen in countries we consider to be basket cases, oncewe stop providing the baskets. ISIS will never form a stable government of any kind, not even an Islamist one. There's a link in another thread to ISIS economics.

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/def ... 0-2-pb.pdf

Long story short, they're a criminal enterprise based on extortion. They have no economics. Even the Taliban has economics.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

bimboman wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pm
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.


Bombing under Trump has fallen dramatically.... have things improved?
Things certainly have improved for those who would've been bombed. But they don't count, of course.

Has support for radical Islam reduced? Too early to say. We've been at this for generations. Changing hearts and minds could take decades. Any solution to terrorism suggested by any side will take decades. That's not an argument against starting. It's an argument for starting sooner.

For a comparison, anti-American sentiment in Vietnam had disappeared by the time of the doi noi economic reforms and is nonexistent now. I'm sure the number of terrorists created falls with every family not killed by a drone.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by MungoMan »

6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:43 pm
bimboman wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:27 pm
6.Jones wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
Mog The Almighty wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am I would agree, but I'm not sure that what we're doing is working.

I think we need to be more aggressive, but not in a military sense. I mean not trading with countries that have these oppressive laws, and certainly not pandering to them by wearing head-scarves "as a sign of solidarity" or whatever. If they don't want to join the modern world, then they should be left alone until such time that they are ready. Unfortunately I guess all that oil is worth far more than than taking moral stances.
There's an old Eskimo saying - don't pour fuel on a fire. The industrialised west is rapidly losing interest in oil. That means an end to bloody military intervention in the Middle East. We tend to assume the Middle East is just naturally crazy, but let's see what happens when America stops bombing the sh1t out of their civilian populations on a regular basis.

Tran Ngoc Chau blamed the American defeat in Vietnam purely on civilian casualties. The Americans would bomb some poor country a bit nearer the stone age, and so the populace hated on them for bombing. The Viet Cong would then do the same, and the populace hated on the Americans for being there. The Americans just couldn't win, so they lost, because they were seen by the populace as the ultimate source of the violence, even if the Viet Cong themselves were the immediate source. We want radical Islam cast in that role.


Bombing under Trump has fallen dramatically.... have things improved?
Things certainly have improved for those who would've been bombed. But they don't count, of course.

Has support for radical Islam reduced? Too early to say. We've been at this for generations. Changing hearts and minds could take decades. Any solution to terrorism suggested by any side will take decades. That's not an argument against starting. It's an argument for starting sooner.

For a comparison, anti-American sentiment in Vietnam had disappeared by the time of the doi noi economic reforms and is nonexistent now. I'm sure the number of terrorists created falls with every family not killed by a drone.
Supply-side economics in action?
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

I think it's certainly economics in action. I love the Freakonomics series of books, that dissect how almost all our actions are driven by self interest, and it's only a matter of finding the incentive.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by 6.Jones »

lorcanoworms wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:49 pm Posted before about a Muslim lady in England who did not get a job she claimed as a hairdresser because she showed photos of women in headscarves as examples of her work.
She got compo.
That sounds like an urban myth. There was a real Muslim woman who was turned down for a job because she wears a headscarf, and got compo. Which is a somewhat different thing.
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Re: Teacher beheaded in France

Post by shereblue »

The tragic beheading in Paris of a teacher which could have produced interesting debate on free speech and terror ended up on PR in a thinly disguised “why the Koran should not be tolerated” thread. Free speech, except by Muslims.

At a time when specifically right wing terror in the West is on the rise and in fact saw more deaths in the UK last year than Muslim terror, it was ironic to note that many of the complainants tended to support deniers of links to terror from right wing or xenophobic postings - the same deniers who expressed outrage, without irony, when Farage had his suit ruined.

The Norwegian Utoya islet massacre, the Kiwi mosque mass slaughter, the El Paso Walmart shooting and the assassination of our very own Jo Cox, MP, aside, it was the right wing terror attempt on the offices of Duncan Lewis, solicitors that caught my eye. As far as I am aware it only made the local news pages of the licence-fee dependent BBC. A knifeman, angered by the firm’s links to acting for asylum seekers, arrived at their offices, armed with Nazi and Confederate flags [ :shock: ] and demanded to see a named lawyer and threatened and racially abused staff.

This both folowed and preceded a late summer vilification of lefty lawyers, do-gooder lawyers and activist lawyers “frustrating the removal of migrants” by Patel and her Home office. No thought that the lawyers were simply doing their job and successfully arguing for the application of laws for which her administration was responsible.

The recent Government response to the objections of the legal profession was met with “even lawyers are not above criticism”. Sure, but Patel’s so called criticisms were not of their successful performances in Court but of them personally and of their ilk as a class of persons.

That is, imo, where incitement lies, ie where there is militancy about beliefs, whether based on the Koran or other religious, social, philosophical or political thought, and where this is directed against individuals or classes of people.
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