Page 1 of 2

Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:17 am
by Peaches
Can you imagine how much better every team in the world would be if they had 8 Maro Itojes or 8 Cheslin Kolbe's on their team?

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:24 am
by Jerome Manning
Yes, it should be proportional to national demographics - anything else would be racism.

New Zealand XV should be:

7 Kiwi whites
3 Maoris
2 Chinese
1 Samoan/Tongan/Fijian
1 Indian/Korean
1 English/Australian/South African.

All in the name of inclusivity and unity. The only way to bring people together is to delineate people by race.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:56 am
by kiap
There should be a team Anon quota.

One login, Vashily. One login only, please.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:11 am
by ZuluBoy
In SA indians chinese brown yellow are black

Bear in mind a rugby team is 15 , so you can't cut someone in half

Therefore the 7 out of 15 is regarded as 50/50 in sa sports quota law and gets the green light to play

Our World Cup win with quota
Black : Mapimpi,Am,Kolbe,de Allende,Kolisi,Mbonambi and Beast is 7
White : Le Roux,Pollard,deKlerk,Vermeulen,duToit,deJager,Etzebeth,Malherbe is 8

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
by Anonymous 1
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:24 am Yes, it should be proportional to national demographics - anything else would be racism.

New Zealand XV should be:

7 Kiwi whites
3 Maoris
2 Chinese
1 Samoan/Tongan/Fijian
1 Indian/Korean
1 English/Australian/South African.

All in the name of inclusivity and unity. The only way to bring people together is to delineate people by race.
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:20 am
by UncleFB
Jerome Manning wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:24 am Yes, it should be proportional to national demographics - anything else would be racism.

New Zealand XV should be:

7 Kiwi whites
3 Maoris
2 Chinese
1 Samoan/Tongan/Fijian
1 Indian/Korean
1 English/Australian/South African.

All in the name of inclusivity and unity. The only way to bring people together is to delineate people by race.
We're stuffed if we pick Rieko, there's one of our Maori quota gone and our Samoan/Tongan/Fijian. We could fill the Chinese with Chinese Samoans but we've already used up our Samoan quota.

Wes Goosen will be happy with the new selection policy.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:36 am
by Peaches
Edward Osei Nketia is the last hope for the ABs to catch up to SA.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/sev ... ens-trials

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:59 am
by ZuluBoy
Less than 10.20 is pretty quick. Just asking, shouldn't he rather concentrate on athletics.
In sa we have Cheslin Kolbe probably slower than 10.2 i am not sure though but his nephew Wayde Van Niekerk faster than 10.20 link below

https://youtu.be/xG91krXuxyw

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
by Jay Cee Gee
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
by UncleFB
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am
by Anonymous 1
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?
https://youtu.be/htCTWZqCMhQ?t=13

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:34 am
by Magpie26
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?
Ouch.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:55 am
by boere wors
ZuluBoy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:11 am In SA indians chinese brown yellow all are classified under sports law as black
It is currently a 50/50 quota sports law between black and white extended to 70% black vs 30% white in 2030.

Bear in mind a rugby team is 15 , so you can't cut someone in half

Therefore the 7 out of 15 is regarded as 50/50 in sa sports quota law and gets the green light to play

Our World Cup win with a govt approved quota team
Black : Mapimpi,Am,Kolbe,de Allende,Kolisi,Mbonambi and Beast is 7
White : Le Roux,Pollard,deKlerk,Vermeulen,duToit,deJager,Etzebeth,Malherbe is 8
Sports minister approved as 50/50 because 15 is an uneven number
De Allende black? He's spanish...

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:59 am
by Olo
I think we are doing OK. Might have to up the Asian heritage quota though?

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:00 am
by C69
Peaches wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:17 am Can you imagine how much better every team in the world would be if they had 8 Maro Itojes or 8 Cheslin Kolbe's on their team?
Can you post a link to the quota attached to the SA international Rugby team.
I thought mandating race within an international team was proscribed.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:07 am
by ZuluBoy
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:00 am
Peaches wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:17 am Can you imagine how much better every team in the world would be if they had 8 Maro Itojes or 8 Cheslin Kolbe's on their team?
Can you post a link to the quota attached to the SA international Rugby team.
I thought mandating race within an international team was proscribed.
https://www.news24.com/sport/Rugby/sa-r ... e-20170504

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:07 am
by eldanielfire
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:00 am
Peaches wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:17 am Can you imagine how much better every team in the world would be if they had 8 Maro Itojes or 8 Cheslin Kolbe's on their team?
Can you post a link to the quota attached to the SA international Rugby team.
I thought mandating race within an international team was proscribed.
https://www.news24.com/sport/Rugby/sas- ... 0in%202007.

Not sure if it stood. But South Africa have clearly, via political pressure, been pushing for players to represent the quotas they desire to have.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:15 am
by ZuluBoy
We don't care the colour composition as long its our best.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am
by C69
Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:32 am
by ZuluBoy
It is not allowed by international sporting codes

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:41 am
by eldanielfire
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
It doesn't have to be in law, nor has anybody claimed it is law. But I think when concerning South Africa's national quotas it has been the political interference which forces it.

I guess the Māori All Blacks are similar. No law but the racial requirement is still there.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:47 am
by C69
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:41 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
It doesn't have to be in law, nor has anybody claimed it is law. But I think when concerning South Africa's national quotas it has been the political interference which forces it.
ffs stop going down the bimbo route,you even posted a link where it was challenged in th courts.
All I have asked for is some proof of the quotas,itsnot something I have seen proof of.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:00 pm
by ZuluBoy
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:00 am
Peaches wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:17 am Can you imagine how much better every team in the world would be if they had 8 Maro Itojes or 8 Cheslin Kolbe's on their team?
Can you post a link to the quota attached to the SA international Rugby team.
I thought mandating race within an international team was proscribed.
Pdf document can be downloaded from below
Google: sports quota legislation gov za
Google : Revising the lawfulness of racial quotas

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:06 pm
by Jay Cee Gee
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?
https://youtu.be/htCTWZqCMhQ?t=13
Literally the first All Black you see in that clip is Maori.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:22 pm
by Magpie26
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?
https://youtu.be/htCTWZqCMhQ?t=13
Literally the first All Black you see in that clip is Maori.
Anon is confused because he is not wearing a piupiu and waving a taiaha.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:23 pm
by ZuluBoy
Even if Maori were 50% of the population I for one would not have liked them embedded in a quota system in nz.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:56 pm
by Leinster in London
South Africa have found a solution to their unique problem. How does imposing a solution work with the other countries that do not have a problem with institutional systemic apartheid.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:17 pm
by mdaclarke
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
This

1. It is a 60% target (not quota)
2. it is not legally binding (although maybe politically difficult)
3. If there was direct government pressure/approval of team selection or selection criteria then South Africa would be in breach of many sporting codes including World Rugby and the IOC and subject to sanctions. (similar happened recently with Zimbabwe and cricket)

https://www.sareferees.com/uploads/file ... inked).pdf


https://www.news24.com/sport/rugby/rugb ... s-20190909

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:43 pm
by Anonymous 1
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:16 am
Why did their used to be so few Maori playing rugby for New Zealand. Did they not take the game seriously or something
What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?
https://youtu.be/htCTWZqCMhQ?t=13
Literally the first All Black you see in that clip is Maori.
Seriously. There was a Maori in the team in 1973. Well I never :shock:

It was a serious question though. I remember reading some time ago that Maori made up 15% of the kiwi population yet the pro rugby percentage was way way higher. I can't remember but it may well have been north of 40% and in 2004 it was only 20%

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:55 pm
by ZuluBoy
I suggest anyone wants to see the disruption of team prep due to government pressure on team selection to read Jake White's autobiography called Black & White wriiten by Craig Ray

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:56 pm
by eldanielfire
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:47 am
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:41 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
It doesn't have to be in law, nor has anybody claimed it is law. But I think when concerning South Africa's national quotas it has been the political interference which forces it.
ffs stop going down the bimbo route,you even posted a link where it was challenged in th courts.
All I have asked for is some proof of the quotas,itsnot something I have seen proof of.

:loL: Your only avoidance of the points and claims it has to be in law to exist is the full Bimbo C69.

As for my link, doesn't the fact quotas where challenged in court evidence there were quotas C69? Legally or not they were made at some point, even if they were defeated.

The powers that be demanding the team have a certain make-up and even enforcing it doesn't have to be something embedding in some law either. Regardless quotas don't have to exist in law to be real. I have no idea why your posts appear to demand that as the only proof.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:08 pm
by MrDominator
I'd loved to see how this would work in Scotland. I suspect they'd have to improvise.

5 Heroin addicts
3 Deep fried mars bar addicts
3 Glaswegian tenement dwellers
2 Edinburgh private schoolboys
1 English poach
1 Borders farmer

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:46 pm
by Magpie26
MrDominator wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:08 pm I'd loved to see how this would work in Scotland. I suspect they'd have to improvise.

5 Heroin addicts
3 Deep fried mars bar addicts
3 Glaswegian tenement dwellers
2 Edinburgh private schoolboys
1 English poach
1 Borders farmer
Take a break, you are way off your game at the moment.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:53 pm
by UncleFB
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:41 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
It doesn't have to be in law, nor has anybody claimed it is law. But I think when concerning South Africa's national quotas it has been the political interference which forces it.

I guess the Māori All Blacks are similar. No law but the racial requirement is still there.
The Maori All Blacks aren't the premier team in NZ rugby so really shouldn't be in this discussion (especially after sentences about political interference) - anymore than the NZ Samoans, NZ Marist, NZ Universities, NZ Tongans etc should be.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:27 pm
by UncleFB
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:43 pm
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:06 pm
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:36 am
Jay Cee Gee wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:35 am

What period are you talking about?
He might be referring to 1928, 1949, 1965?
https://youtu.be/htCTWZqCMhQ?t=13
Literally the first All Black you see in that clip is Maori.
Seriously. There was a Maori in the team in 1973. Well I never :shock:

It was a serious question though. I remember reading some time ago that Maori made up 15% of the kiwi population yet the pro rugby percentage was way way higher. I can't remember but it may well have been north of 40% and in 2004 it was only 20%
If it was a serious question (and I don't think it was at the time :lol: ) then I'll give you a serious answer.

Maori have historically not made up 15 % of the population, the percentage was a lot lower. In the 1920s NZ's population was roughly 1.3m, the Maori population was around 50k.
Furthermore, Maori mostly lived in rural areas (90%) pre the 1950s/1960s when the urban drift happened which also saw birth rates rise.

There have been Maori players in NZ representative teams since they were first selected. The first NZ representative team had a Maori captain. Aside from tours of SA every NZ team would have had Maori players.

The great Magpies teams of the 1920s (think Crusaders of the era with ABs on the reserves) were filled with Maori players who went on to the ABs. Hawkes Bay had a high percentage of Maori in the area and the players filtered through.

Regarding more players in the pro era, of course talented Maori are going to move into pro rugby if the opportunity is there, but in the past players had to make a living. It was harder to hold down a job/run a farm etc, if you're off touring, so much fewer numbers of players would have come through.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:11 am
by eldanielfire
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:53 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:41 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
It doesn't have to be in law, nor has anybody claimed it is law. But I think when concerning South Africa's national quotas it has been the political interference which forces it.

I guess the Māori All Blacks are similar. No law but the racial requirement is still there.
The Maori All Blacks aren't the premier team in NZ rugby so really shouldn't be in this discussion (especially after sentences about political interference) - anymore than the NZ Samoans, NZ Marist, NZ Universities, NZ Tongans etc should be.
The discussion is about teams that have had racial make-ups, of course the Maori All Blacks are a valid discussion point. No one claimed there was political interference in them either.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:28 am
by UncleFB
eldanielfire wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:11 am
UncleFB wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:53 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:41 am
C69 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:22 am Not seen anything to suggest this is law in international Sporting teams from SA.
It may be an aspiration but can anyone show me the legislation?
If it was implemented surely they would be kicked out of international competition?
It doesn't have to be in law, nor has anybody claimed it is law. But I think when concerning South Africa's national quotas it has been the political interference which forces it.

I guess the Māori All Blacks are similar. No law but the racial requirement is still there.
The Maori All Blacks aren't the premier team in NZ rugby so really shouldn't be in this discussion (especially after sentences about political interference) - anymore than the NZ Samoans, NZ Marist, NZ Universities, NZ Tongans etc should be.
The discussion is about teams that have had racial make-ups, of course the Maori All Blacks are a valid discussion point. No one claimed there was political interference in them either.
The discussion is about a national team, and the teams that directly feed into that national team, and transformation or quotas in that context. You can include the Maori team if you want but it's an entity that sits outside those three factors so not sure how useful it is at all.

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:45 am
by Zakar
Australia doesnt keep stats on race (because it's a BS social construct IMO) however based on 'ancestry' we would be

3 Australians
3 Poms
2 Irish
2 Scots
1 Chinese
1 Italian
1 German
1 indigenous
1 other

I think we'd have to reach pretty deep into club rugby to find the Chinese player. Quick go though

1. Bell
2. Nasser
3. Zander
4. Rory Arnold
5. Phillip
6. Dempsey
7. McReight
8. Wilson
9. McDermott
10. O'Connor
11. Ramm
12. Hodge
13. Nigel Ah Wong
14. Matt Carraro
15. Banks

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:50 am
by UncleFB
Zakar wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:45 am Australia doesnt keep stats on race (because it's a BS social construct IMO) however based on 'ancestry' we would be

3 Australians
3 Poms
2 Irish
2 Scots
1 Chinese
1 Italian
1 German
1 indigenous
1 other

I think we'd have to reach pretty deep into club rugby to find the Chinese player. Quick go though

1. Bell
2. Nasser
3. Zander
4. Rory Arnold
5. Phillip
6. Dempsey
7. McReight
8. Wilson
9. McDermott
10. O'Connor
11. Ramm
12. Hodge
13. Nigel Ah Wong
14. Matt Carraro
15. Banks
NZ doesn't make it as an ancestry?

Also, I thought Fijians would at least be on 2. ;)

Re: Should more teams integrate quotas like SA?

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:50 am
by Peaches
There should just be more black players in every team just because they are bigger stronger faster than everyone else