All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

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CrazyIslander
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by CrazyIslander »

The aura is still there. The All Blacks is the only team in the world where beating them still means a lot to the opposition regardless of the stage.
In the 90s, when NH teams beat the big SH teams it was a big deal. In the early 2000s it was still big but became regular for Aus/SA. By mid 2010s it wasn't such a big deal to beat Aus/SA.
The ABs are the only ones left where it's a big deal to beat them.

It's more telling by the fans reaction. In the 90s I would hope the NH play well vs the Wobs. If they sneak a win I'd say good on them. In the 2000s, you hate England but admire France and approve of the progress of Celtic teams. 2010s I fully hate NH teams but expect to beat them. The last 4 years, Aust are underdogs vs most of them away. The losses are so regular that it's expected.
brat
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by brat »

We are definitely on the downward spiral

We have enough backline talent but our fowards just aren’t up to it now

Unless we uncover some ball carriers in the fowards -with good work rates/defence -we will keep losing

Never been a fan or akira- but if we can mould him into an international level player with a decent work rate that would be start

Then hopefully get retallick back and hopefully another lock to come through would help

Like frizzel but not sure he’s ever going to set the world on fire - we miss Kaino a lot
mdaclarke
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by mdaclarke »

Don't know if this is just an error (like the Boks of 2016, 2017) or if this is something deeper. Will have to see when they replace their coach.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by les@mooloolaba »

brat wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:24 am We are definitely on the downward spiral

We have enough backline talent but our fowards just aren’t up to it now

Unless we uncover some ball carriers in the fowards -with good work rates/defence -we will keep losing

Never been a fan or akira- but if we can mould him into an international level player with a decent work rate that would be start

Then hopefully get retallick back and hopefully another lock to come through would help

Like frizzel but not sure he’s ever going to set the world on fire - we miss Kaino a lot
Pretty much agree. Whitelock played really well but didn’t have someone like Retallick to help. Too many of present forwards just can’t cope under pressure and should be ditched. I thought Frizzell carried well but he doesn’t monster in the tackle like Kaino. I don’t feel we have enough leaders in the present lineup, who know how to aim up under pressure. It’s all very well being in the leadership team but some people will always be followers. The AB’s will be formidable again when either Rennie or Razor are appointed.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by TheFrog »

Finally got to watch that game and I have to say that I couldn't recognize the All Blacks. The ill-disciplime was beyond belief and when the slaps started going, they got the referee on the wrong side of them. Add to this that the Pumas had all the momentum in the first half and they could only be punished, with a kicker of Sanchez caliber. Cole had a mare in this context.

The Pumas were as sharp as a team that would have prepared specifically for a world cup. Their fitness and physicality allowed them to bully the All Blacks into a standstill. They were clinical and tool all the points (or almost all of them) that were presented to them. They rarely threatened the try line actually, but they kept the All Blacks muted. Their defense was top notch, and their work at the rucks, especially for their own ball, was top notch (except for their nber 1, the LHP). Their scummy was everywhere and accelerating the game. Impressive collective performance.

The ABs amazed me by their lack of direction. I saw waste more overlaps in one game than in decades watching them. They looked stunned and frustrated and did not perform at their usual level.

Credit to the Pumas for taking the game away from them, but I would not hurry the ABs yet.
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Cartman
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Cartman »

NZ will be sub par for maximum one calendar year
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Morgan14 »

Imho need a new head coach (plenty of excellent homegrown candidates for them to choose from). Adn then need to mould a better pack, not that it's bad by any stretch, but it's come back down to a level that certain other teams can live with and on their day, better.

The NZ backline from 9-15 is still miles ahead of everyone else, imho, and their replacements / next in the depth chart are almost as good. (France's backline i should mention have impressed me mightily too, but not quite in this stratosphere for me.)

Mounga's an interesting one - best flyhalf on the planet for me, but I agree he hasn't put his full stamp on that yet. He will, he's just too good.

Might be a small period of adjustment, but NZ'll remain at or near the top.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Salient »

Eugenius wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:04 pm
MrDominator wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:37 pm We can argue the toss about what the future holds for this All Blacks team, but one thing isn't in doubt: their aura has been shattered by the events of the past few years. That aura was built on the idea of invincibility. Yet if you lose to teams you've never previously lost to, there is no aura left to protect.

2016 - the first New Zealand defeat to Ireland in history.
2020 - the first New Zealand defeat to Argentina in history.

These are epochal, era-defining events. The All Blacks first played Ireland in 1905 - over a century of dominance shattered in an instant, never to return. The All Blacks first played Argentina in 1985 - three rugby generations of dominance equally shattered, never to return. This All Blacks generation will never be forgiven for surrendering their banners of war to the Irish and Argentines.

We all know what happens next. Like night follows day, New Zealand will lose to Scotland (for the first time ever) and to Wales (for the first time since 1953). It's inevitable, and will almost certainly happen within this RWC cycle. And when that happens, New Zealand will be just another team.

The Germans had an aura until Stalingrad. The Soviets had an aura until Afghanistan. When the aura shatters, complete surrender is only around the corner.


What a very strange person .
As soon as I read "aura" gave up on the rest, the normal delusional posting by someone frothing at the mouth over an AB loss.

A Kiwi posters were saying LAST YEAR, the ABs are in a for a number of hard years due to need of new talent and the current Coaching crisis the Kiwi Rugby Union seem particular blind to.

A good AB coach would have learnt from the English RWC loss, we don't have anything like a good AB coach.
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booji boy
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by booji boy »

This slump was entirely predictable for two reasons:

1. Ian
2. Foster

With a decent coach this team can still be vying for the no.1 ranking in the world but with this clown in charge slipping to about 5th is highly plausible.

Yes, yes I know, this is not the 2015 team chock full of all time greats. I accept that. I'm not talking about them being as dominant as that 2011-15 period or even 2005-2010 but there is still enough talent available to have this team consistently in the top 3 and vying for the top spot. Sure there will still be losses to the top tier teams but not the bumbling, inept, clueless performances we are currently seeing from this mob.

We all predicted Foster would bring this level of performance. It's just lucky we aren't playing Wales this year.
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Thomas
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Thomas »

The ABs will bounce back. Foster will cop the brunt of it because he's the coach even though it's the players making stupid mistakes. We all knew this was going to happen. The 2015 team was one of the best AB teams of all time and they managed to paper over the cracks when McCaw and Carter retired.

What is obvious is that the ABs have a Plan A. And Plan A always worked. Even in tight matches. Relentless pressure and capitalisation on the opposition mistakes. But when Plan A doesn't work...there's no Plan B. Teams have found out how to combat this Plan A and the solution is simple...but often very hard to do. Stop making stupid mistakes and put the ABs under physical pressure. Cheika worked it out a few times but then pushed the stupid "play the ball from everywhere" tactic and the Wallabies would invariably lose. Eddie Jones has the team and the cattle to do it. South African does as well.

I think it goes back to Hanson. The bloke inherited a god-tier team with a GOAT as captain and essentially said "keep playing like you play, lads..." Foster was in the system at the time and he should have seen the writing on the wall.

This AB team reminds me of the AB team of the late 90s. A sprinkling of genuine superstars with some ordinary, run of the mill rugby players. I have no doubt they'll bounce back but it will be interesting to see if other teams can take advantage of this window.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by ZuluBoy »

Thomas's a good post with insight. His comments "players making stupid mistakes" and "Eddie Jones has the cattle" are applicable on any team
Last edited by ZuluBoy on Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Olo
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Olo »

Everyone is jumping on Foster. All he can do is prepare them, which I give there may not have been adequate prep for this one. This is a bit of a surprise coming off a loss? A little arrogance perhaps?
How about on-field leadership? In the middle portion of the second half there was none. Then in the last 10 minutes the ABs started to play a very narrow game and tried go through the middle? Whose idea was that? Not a good idea against a defence that had stood strong for 70 minutes and was clearly winning the physical battle.
Of course Fozzie has to take the hit for this one but you have to question Sam Canes leadership and that of his deputies. Cane is an excellent player but I get the feeling that he is not a strong uncompromising leader in the mould of either McAwe or Read. The captain needs his side to respond when asked and it just didn’t happen over the last two weeks. In the presser post match he looked genuinely shell shocked. Did he take a hit to the noggin? Players just did not previously make the mistakes that were made by Black on the weekend and then were not held to account by their captain. They were terrified of them!
As Thomas says, they will come back. The playing talent and coaching ability in that country is there in spades.
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Thomas
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Thomas »

I honestly didn't think much of Read as a leader and some of the losses during his tenure as captain reflected what we're seeing now. I recall in one test in Brisbane, which the ABs lost, shit was getting out of hand with rucks descending into push and shove battles. Wayne Barnes called the captains over and told them to get the teams to pull their heads in. Hooper had a chat. Read just went back 10m. That match was critically decided by a penalty from some knucklehead doing something silly.

Just an observation. I mean, McCaw set the bar really farken high and it's unfair to compare Read and Cane to him. In saying that, Cane is a good flanker but he isn't a captain's arsehole.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by GotheCanes »

It's great to see the amount of neutrals on this thread concerned for the ABs well being :thumbup:
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Tehui
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Tehui »

From an AB fans perspective, better to slump now then in 2-3 years time I guess. The ABs were blessed with a lot of great players between 2005-2017-ish. Time for next generation of players to come through and improve their skills.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by mr bungle »

GotheCanes wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:54 am It's great to see the amount of neutrals on this thread concerned for the ABs well being :thumbup:
Remember the days when the Aussies got incredibly sensitive whenever a Kiwi commented on a Wallaby thread?
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by UncleFB »

Thomas wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:21 am I honestly didn't think much of Read as a leader and some of the losses during his tenure as captain reflected what we're seeing now. I recall in one test in Brisbane, which the ABs lost, shit was getting out of hand with rucks descending into push and shove battles. Wayne Barnes called the captains over and told them to get the teams to pull their heads in. Hooper had a chat. Read just went back 10m. That match was critically decided by a penalty from some knucklehead doing something silly.

Just an observation. I mean, McCaw set the bar really farken high and it's unfair to compare Read and Cane to him. In saying that, Cane is a good flanker but he isn't a captain's arsehole.
McCaw wasn't a captains arsehole early on either - I don't think we get bundled out in the 1/4s in 07 with Umaga as captain. McCaw grew into the roll with the support of other senior players, hopefully Cane can do the same.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Thomas »

I think being a captain is a terrifically hard job to do and being a flanker is one of the hardest positions to play. Imagine busting your gut being a physical menace all over the field and having to make leadership decisions. I think it's kind of why the best captains in the world are from the tight five. All they have to do is hit people and put their head in dark places.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by wamberal »

Tehui wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:56 am From an AB fans perspective, better to slump now then in 2-3 years time I guess. The ABs were blessed with a lot of great players between 2005-2017-ish. Time for next generation of players to come through and improve their skills.
How are your under 20s and NZ Schoolboys teams going against us lowly Aussies?
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Tehui
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Tehui »

wamberal wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:02 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:56 am From an AB fans perspective, better to slump now then in 2-3 years time I guess. The ABs were blessed with a lot of great players between 2005-2017-ish. Time for next generation of players to come through and improve their skills.
How are your under 20s and NZ Schoolboys teams going against us lowly Aussies?
Useless. Why do you ask?
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by obelixtim »

Thomas wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:21 am I honestly didn't think much of Read as a leader and some of the losses during his tenure as captain reflected what we're seeing now. I recall in one test in Brisbane, which the ABs lost, shit was getting out of hand with rucks descending into push and shove battles. Wayne Barnes called the captains over and told them to get the teams to pull their heads in. Hooper had a chat. Read just went back 10m. That match was critically decided by a penalty from some knucklehead doing something silly.

Just an observation. I mean, McCaw set the bar really farken high and it's unfair to compare Read and Cane to him. In saying that, Cane is a good flanker but he isn't a captain's arsehole.
Agree re Read. He went missing. Often.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Sonny Blount »

Thomas wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:32 am I think being a captain is a terrifically hard job to do and being a flanker is one of the hardest positions to play. Imagine busting your gut being a physical menace all over the field and having to make leadership decisions. I think it's kind of why the best captains in the world are from the tight five. All they have to do is hit people and put their head in dark places.
4 world cups have been won by captains playing flanker
2 by half backs
2 by locks
1 by a hooker

Ergo flankers make the best captains.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by obelixtim »

Tehui wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:56 am From an AB fans perspective, better to slump now then in 2-3 years time I guess. The ABs were blessed with a lot of great players between 2005-2017-ish. Time for next generation of players to come through and improve their skills.
There were 5 starting world cup winners on Saturday (not counting Cane). I don't buy the excuse that they were lacking experience.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by MrDominator »

Gordon D'Arcy not holding back on the Kiwis in the Irish Times:
As you might have noticed, the Kiwis are not the best at swallowing a loss. John Kirwan’s moan about removing the sending-off rule for shots to the head was an embarrassing comment to hear from an ex-international. In defeat they always repeat the same scenario: congratulate the victors through gritted teeth and then turn on their own.

It was a performance that “shamed the legacy” of the All Blacks according to The New Zealand Herald. This sort of stuff is hilarious. The All Blacks didn’t shame their legacy, they were beaten fair and square by a team that had not played any rugby in over 400 days. It was an incredible achievement by Argentina.

We know only too well that revenge will be swift and violent but New Zealand are no longer miles ahead of the other tier one rugby nations.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

MrDominator wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:27 am In defeat they always repeat the same scenario: congratulate the victors through gritted teeth and then turn on their own
What the f'k does he know what NZ does in defeat?

Same old 'Aura gone, arrogant NZ' shit from a bitter loser.
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Zakar
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Zakar »

Well, it's true.

I've never seen a loss where most kiwi fans say 'yeah we played well but were beaten by the better team' its always about a poor ABs performance.
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Zakar wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am Well, it's true.

I've never seen a loss where most kiwi fans say 'yeah we played well but were beaten by the better team' its always about a poor ABs performance.
That's just the nature of sport though, one win doesn't prove much in isolation. And when it's one loss after a run of 5 or 6 wins (or 20 something in this case) it's a natural reaction to put the onus of the result on the 'overdog'. Even a dominant win like England's in the RWC is likely to be viewed as something of an anomaly unless they back it up by proving some sort of lasting dominance. When Aus had the wood on NZ in the late 90's/early 00's or in 09 with the Boks, people may have despaired a bit at the results but they accepted the other side was better.

And they have actually accepted that the other side just beat them at their best in some one off losses when it's been a decent AB performance, but the game on the weekend wasn't that.
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handyman
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by handyman »

How many players of NZ are playing up North that would be dead certs to crack the 23?
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by SilverGrin »

Zakar wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am Well, it's true.

I've never seen a loss where most kiwi fans say 'yeah we played well but were beaten by the better team' its always about a poor ABs performance.
You're full of shit.

Everybody I've spoken to agrees the ABs were beaten by the better team and the Argie defence, tactics and physicality was top drawer.
Same thing for the last Wallaby game.

But do carry on poring over your rugby sites til you find the inevitable boorish Kiwi dickhead and !ump us all together like that shitty article further up the page.

Jesus there are some wankers about.
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Zakar
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Zakar »

SilverGrin wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:55 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am Well, it's true.

I've never seen a loss where most kiwi fans say 'yeah we played well but were beaten by the better team' its always about a poor ABs performance.
You're full of shit.

Everybody I've spoken to agrees the ABs were beaten by the better team and the Argie defence, tactics and physicality was top drawer.
Same thing for the last Wallaby game.

But do carry on poring over your rugby sites til you find the inevitable boorish Kiwi dickhead and !ump us all together like that shitty article further up the page.

Jesus there are some wankers about.
:lol:

Poring over, it's harder to not find them. Considered reasonable kiwi fans exist, but they are in the absolute minority on social media.
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wamberal
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by wamberal »

Tehui wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:03 am
wamberal wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:02 am
Tehui wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:56 am From an AB fans perspective, better to slump now then in 2-3 years time I guess. The ABs were blessed with a lot of great players between 2005-2017-ish. Time for next generation of players to come through and improve their skills.
How are your under 20s and NZ Schoolboys teams going against us lowly Aussies?
Useless. Why do you ask?
Because I am interested in your opinion.
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mr bungle
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by mr bungle »

Zakar wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am Well, it's true.

I've never seen a loss where most kiwi fans say 'yeah we played well but were beaten by the better team' its always about a poor ABs performance.
The last three, Argies, Wallabies & England RWC all come to mind. You can always analyse things your team could have done better, but the average Kiwi on the street, not social media, know the better team won.

In the case of Arg & Eng we were dominated.
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Post by shanky »

MrDominator wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:27 am Gordon D'Arcy not holding back on the Kiwis in the Irish Times:
As you might have noticed, the Kiwis are not the best at swallowing a loss. John Kirwan’s moan about removing the sending-off rule for shots to the head was an embarrassing comment to hear from an ex-international. In defeat they always repeat the same scenario: congratulate the victors through gritted teeth and then turn on their own.

It was a performance that “shamed the legacy” of the All Blacks according to The New Zealand Herald. This sort of stuff is hilarious. The All Blacks didn’t shame their legacy, they were beaten fair and square by a team that had not played any rugby in over 400 days. It was an incredible achievement by Argentina.

We know only too well that revenge will be swift and violent but New Zealand are no longer miles ahead of the other tier one rugby nations.
Why would someone from the Home Kyneties be reading the Irish Times? :lol:
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kiap
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by kiap »

shanky wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:44 am
Why would someone from the Home Kyneties be reading the Irish Times? :lol:
:o To be sure?
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shanky
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Post by shanky »

kiap wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:48 am
shanky wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:44 am
Why would someone from the Home Kyneties be reading the Irish Times? :lol:
:o To be sure?
To be sure
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terangi48
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by terangi48 »

AB's in a slump? Nah......the rest of the world has caught up as the game has widened it's opportunities for player and coaching contracts offshore.

......also, the 2008 to 2015 AB's were exceptional all round the team.......key player retirements were not repaced with the same quality.

We were the No 1 team........and deserved to be.......and the world rankings have us in our true current position......and may fall more yet.

You can only play with the cattle you have.........our backs are as good.......our pack is a lesser bunch that the 2008 - 2015 group.

.........but don't worry.....it's cyclic......and it's someone elses turn to be the dominant force.

We'll be back......
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handyman
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by handyman »

terangi48 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:20 am AB's in a slump? Nah......the rest of the world has caught up as the game has widened it's opportunities for player and coaching contracts offshore.

......also, the 2008 to 2015 AB's were exceptional all round the team.......key player retirements were not repaced with the same quality.

We were the No 1 team........and deserved to be.......and the world rankings have us in our true current position......and may fall more yet.

You can only play with the cattle you have.........our backs are as good.......our pack is a lesser bunch that the 2008 - 2015 group.

.........but don't worry.....it's cyclic......and it's someone elses turn to be the dominant force.

We'll be back......
An honest Kiwi. Sir, I applaud you and wish you all of the best.
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Post by Wilderbeast »

mr bungle wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:35 am
Zakar wrote: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am Well, it's true.

I've never seen a loss where most kiwi fans say 'yeah we played well but were beaten by the better team' its always about a poor ABs performance.
The last three, Argies, Wallabies & England RWC all come to mind. You can always analyse things your team could have done better, but the average Kiwi on the street, not social media, know the better team won.

In the case of Arg & Eng we were dominated.
I recall kiwis being pretty good about the ab loss to Ireland in Ireland as well.
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Zakar
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Zakar »

terangi48 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:20 am AB's in a slump? Nah......the rest of the world has caught up as the game has widened it's opportunities for player and coaching contracts offshore.

......also, the 2008 to 2015 AB's were exceptional all round the team.......key player retirements were not repaced with the same quality.

We were the No 1 team........and deserved to be.......and the world rankings have us in our true current position......and may fall more yet.

You can only play with the cattle you have.........our backs are as good.......our pack is a lesser bunch that the 2008 - 2015 group.

.........but don't worry.....it's cyclic......and it's someone elses turn to be the dominant force.

We'll be back......
There is no way your backs are as good now as they were in 2015.

9. Smith = Smith
10. Carter > Mounga
11. Savea > Clarke
12. Nonu > Goodhue
13. Smith > ALB
14. NMS = J Barrett
15. Smith = B Barrett
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Re: All Blacks. Just a slump? Or...

Post by Jay Cee Gee »

Zakar wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:30 am
terangi48 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:20 am AB's in a slump? Nah......the rest of the world has caught up as the game has widened it's opportunities for player and coaching contracts offshore.

......also, the 2008 to 2015 AB's were exceptional all round the team.......key player retirements were not repaced with the same quality.

We were the No 1 team........and deserved to be.......and the world rankings have us in our true current position......and may fall more yet.

You can only play with the cattle you have.........our backs are as good.......our pack is a lesser bunch that the 2008 - 2015 group.

.........but don't worry.....it's cyclic......and it's someone elses turn to be the dominant force.

We'll be back......
There is no way your backs are as good now as they were in 2015.

9. Smith = Smith
10. Carter > Mounga
11. Savea > Clarke
12. Nonu > Goodhue
13. Smith > ALB
14. NMS = J Barrett
15. Smith = B Barrett

2015 NMS was way better than Jordie Barrett.
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