Ireland and Wales set up official Saxon poaching programmes

[MrDominator]

Pretty brazen stuff. Why not just go the whole hog and set up stud farms in Kildare and Monmouthshire for visiting English rugby teams?

When fly-half Billy Burns made his Ireland debut last Friday night, he became the 10th former England Under-20 international to represent another Six Nations country at senior level. Burns, whose grandfather is from Cork, is now in line to play the country of his birth on Saturday should he pass the concussion return-to-play protocols.

Wales, Scotland and Ireland, through its IQ programme, all have staff based in England dedicated to finding qualified players. As Paul Turner, the former Wales fly-half-turned-talent-spotter, says, he frequently cross paths with his opposite numbers at schools tournaments and Premiership academy matches. “I see guys like Kevin Maggs (from Ireland) and Ian Smith (Scotland) about wherever I go,” Turner told The Daily Telegraph earlier this year. “I suppose it is like something out of a Mike Bassett film.”

It is Lydon’s job to identify and develop Irish-qualified players based abroad, primarily in England in the 17-20 age range, but also further afield. His database runs to hundreds of players but he and his team of Maggs, the former Ireland centre, and Steven McGuinness will concentrate on a pool of six to 10 players in each year group. Lydon says his most important weapon in identifying Irish-qualified players is “word of mouth”, whether through school or club coaches.

So should the Rugby Football Union be concerned? John Fletcher, the former England U18 coach, is fairly relaxed by the drift of U20 players to other countries. “It is inevitable when you have 14 academies developing a lot of players that they will go somewhere else,” Fletcher said. “It is only a problem if it's the British Lions-type players who go somewhere else, an Owen Farrell-type player.”

The only player who falls into that category, according to Fletcher, is Wales back row Moriarty. “He had a different mentality to a lot of the English guys,” Fletcher said. “I feel he would have done really well for England but the fact is his dad and his uncle played for Wales so it was an inevitable choice.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... p-iceberg/

[AND-y]

Have you ever been to Saxony? It's shit

[Winnie]

DD is on form today
Already started one sh1t fight he is moving on to a second front

[AND-y]

DD is on form today
Already started one sh1t fight he is moving on to a second front

I'm not even looking at that "black Brit in Ireland" thread.

[Flyin Ryan]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

[The Sun God]

They can have Billy Burns back.

[YOYO]

Well rugby oracle and esteemed English rugby god Stephen Jones did once suggest that the IRFU should set up a team in English rugby top tier (i.e London Irish) from where they can develop talent because he assumed that the Celtic league in its infancy wouldn’t be a good enough breeding ground for international standard players.

[YOYO]

What about England and France rugby entities setting up poaching programmes in the Pacific islands??

[LandOTurk]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

[eldanielfire]

What about England and France rugby entities setting up poaching programmes in the Pacific islands??

Since when does England have a poaching programs in the Pacific Islands? As far as I'm aware between the two only Ireland has a player from the Pacific who they intentionally had a project player from that end of the world and loads of saffers too.

England happily cap qualified players if they come over and qualify, but have no project players or programs as such.

[eldanielfire]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

Bale went to the same Cardiff school as Sam Warburton didn't he? Hardly any sort of poach.

[MrDominator]

The RFU is surely missing a trick here.

Can you imagine how much supreme genetic specimens like Tom Curry, Sam Underhill and Maro Itoje would earn in the stud market? Let's say £50k a cover, and they each plough through 20 Irish wenches - at a conservative estimate - over the course of a weekend. Those three players alone would generate £3 million in revenue, just from boffing a few Irish maidens from Friday to Sunday. It's up there with the money the RFU makes from Test matches.

You'd have the Irish, Welsh, Scots, Australians and other inferior gene pools queueing up for a dose of superior Saxon spunk.

Time, surely, for the RFU to leverage England's genetic superiority.

[backrow]

You need to work on your bantz m8; that’s the least amusing post involving jizz ever recorded on this forum

Are you saffa?

[Flyin Ryan]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

My former rugby coach was a proud Welshman but lived in and played his career at Bristol.

Your first paragraph whether you realize it or not you're making the implicit case that Wales and England are the same country and that the only border that exists between the two is one of sentiment.

Me personally, it'd be place of birth or where you grew up playing the game, with where you grew up playing the game being the prime consideration. A.J. MacGinty, Eagles starting fly half, is an Irishman. Him living for 3 years in Atlanta does not change that.

[Lemoentjie]

It's ruining rugby. When SA play Ireland, I don't want them to be playing against former Eton College schoolboys, I want them to being playing against hardened farmers.

The rest of the world should aim to be more like South Africa and Argentina, speaking in terms of rugby poaching

[eldanielfire]

It's ruining rugby. When SA play Ireland, I don't want them to be playing against former Eton College schoolboys, I want them to being playing against hardened farmers.

The rest of the world should aim to be more like South Africa and Argentina, speaking in terms of rugby poaching

[Trostan]

DD is on form today
Already started one sh1t fight he is moving on to a second front

Don't worry, 4 or 5 posts in and he will make the usual arse of himself

[Trostan]

The RFU is surely missing a trick here.

Can you imagine how much supreme genetic specimens like Tom Curry, Sam Underhill and Maro Itoje would earn in the stud market? Let's say £50k a cover, and they each plough through 20 Irish wenches - at a conservative estimate - over the course of a weekend. Those three players alone would generate £3 million in revenue, just from boffing a few Irish maidens from Friday to Sunday. It's up there with the money the RFU makes from Test matches.

You'd have the Irish, Welsh, Scots, Australians and other inferior gene pools queueing up for a dose of superior Saxon spunk.

Time, surely, for the RFU to leverage England's genetic superiority.

60 million people, thousands of rugby clubs and just like their soccer team, they get regularly beaten by small countries.
Looks like Lewis Hamilton has the best genes in England, when it comes to sport

[LandOTurk]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

My former rugby coach was a proud Welshman but lived in and played his career at Bristol.

Your first paragraph whether you realize it or not you're making the implicit case that Wales and England are the same country and that the only border that exists between the two is one of sentiment.


Me personally, it'd be place of birth or where you grew up playing the game, with where you grew up playing the game being the prime consideration. A.J. MacGinty, Eagles starting fly half, is an Irishman. Him living for 3 years in Atlanta does not change that.

Not so sure

Your first paragraph whether you realize it or not you're making the implicit case that Wales and England are the same country and that the only border that exists between the two is one of sentiment.

I don't see it described that way at all.

Me personally, it'd be place of birth or where you grew up playing the game, with where you grew up playing the game being the prime consideration. A.J. MacGinty, Eagles starting fly half, is an Irishman. Him living for 3 years in Atlanta does not change that.

That's not the way of the world though. Let me give you some examples:

English kids of south-Asian origin often (but not always) grow up supporting and wanting to play for India, Pakistan or Bangladesh, rather than England. Less so for a Celt family in England granted. I think its because the host culture is further rather than closer to the family culture. Quite frequently, you will find a child raised in England of one Welsh, and one English parent - they support England in footy and Wales in rugby.

Former Wales centre Tom Shanklin, whose father played for Wales, was born and raised in England. He grew up playing age grade rugby through the English system but never thought of himself as playing for anyone but Wales.

Current Welsh international, Ross Moriarty's father and uncle played for Wales. His father went north to league and Ross was born in NW England. His father stayed there post career to coach (some time in Wales too), and Ross grew up playing age grade rugby through the English system but never thought of himself as playing for anyone but Wales.

As soon as you get to grand-parents then the link fades significantly. I'd be fine with limiting it to parents. And I was glad to see the residency rule bumped out to 5 years, but there again I would prefer it to be eradicated entirely. Bringing in a project player to eventually play internationally is just wrong. The system is being abused and this approach by the Celts will exacerbate it. I don't like where it leaves us in terms of team culture. The thought of potentially having the majority of the team with an English accent is quite frankly abhorrent. On the flip side, it does build depth and if we persist with this approach, I would focus on areas where we are historically weak - namely locks.

[earl the beaver]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The grandparent rule, in the home nations especially, is necessary.

I went to uni with a guy who has grown up his whole life in England, his dad had also grown up in England but had played representative rugby (from checking on espn doesn't look like he ever got an actual cap) for Scotland through his parents. The guy I went to uni with considered himself Scottish, supports Scotland in all sports etc. but he would only qualify through grandparents if he had been good enough to play for them (he wasn't).

England is such an economic driver compared to Ireland, Scotland and Wales that thousands of people that consider themselves Irish/Scottish/Welsh even though they are 2nd/3rd/4th generation are born every year.

[DeDoc]

Qualifying through a parent is a bit of a no-brainer for me. The identity of the kid will usually be fairly plural in most cases, even ocassionally more biased towards the ancestor country - depending on nationality of other parent, extended family etc
I'd say it is generally more tenuous at the level of grandparent, but I do know several examples of people who'd see that grandparents nationality as a very important part of their identity. On the average I'd be ok with removing it, but I do think there would be some hard cases. Is there a case for a two level qualification - e.g. one for age grade - which is more generous,and allows qualification through a grandparent, and one for senior which says grandparent isn't enough if you've already played age grade for another country?

[Luckycharmer]

It's ruining rugby. When SA play Ireland, I don't want them to be playing against former Eton College schoolboys, I want them to being playing against hardened farmers.

The rest of the world should aim to be more like South Africa and Argentina, speaking in terms of rugby poaching

2 poor economies that cannot afford to keep their own players never mind attracting overseas players.

[4071]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

Bale went to the same Cardiff school as Sam Warburton didn't he? Hardly any sort of poach.

I think he's saying that the likes of Ramsey and Bale are acting as influencers to persuade the young players in English clubs to give Wales a shot if they are qualified. Not that Ramsey and Bale are poaches themselves.

[Flyin Ryan]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

My former rugby coach was a proud Welshman but lived in and played his career at Bristol.

Your first paragraph whether you realize it or not you're making the implicit case that Wales and England are the same country and that the only border that exists between the two is one of sentiment.


Me personally, it'd be place of birth or where you grew up playing the game, with where you grew up playing the game being the prime consideration. A.J. MacGinty, Eagles starting fly half, is an Irishman. Him living for 3 years in Atlanta does not change that.

Not so sure

Your first paragraph whether you realize it or not you're making the implicit case that Wales and England are the same country and that the only border that exists between the two is one of sentiment.

I don't see it described that way at all.

Me personally, it'd be place of birth or where you grew up playing the game, with where you grew up playing the game being the prime consideration. A.J. MacGinty, Eagles starting fly half, is an Irishman. Him living for 3 years in Atlanta does not change that.

That's not the way of the world though. Let me give you some examples:

English kids of south-Asian origin often (but not always) grow up supporting and wanting to play for India, Pakistan or Bangladesh, rather than England. Less so for a Celt family in England granted. I think its because the host culture is further rather than closer to the family culture. Quite frequently, you will find a child raised in England of one Welsh, and one English parent - they support England in footy and Wales in rugby.

Sorry I just have to laugh at that. Go put a banner on your house that says "I'M A BANDWAGONER".

Former Wales centre Tom Shanklin, whose father played for Wales, was born and raised in England. He grew up playing age grade rugby through the English system but never thought of himself as playing for anyone but Wales.

Who made him into the player he was? The RFU or the WRU? Obviously he's a product of the English rugby system, and he was born and raised in England. Like I said earlier, he's only Welsh in sentiment. If Wales had a team full of Tom Shanklins in those circumstances, the Welsh national team might as well disappear because there's no difference between them and England. I know it's not going to practically, but that's like the U.S. national rugby league team from the 2013 League World Cup that was full of Australians and Englishmen I highly ridiculed in a column I wrote for an online rugby site. What's the purpose for development at that point if all your team's best players are developed somewhere else? Just throw all your youth development programs in a trashcan because they serve no purpose then if you can just grab players not good enough for their own national teams to come play for you.

As soon as you get to grand-parents then the link fades significantly. I'd be fine with limiting it to parents. And I was glad to see the residency rule bumped out to 5 years, but there again I would prefer it to be eradicated entirely. Bringing in a project player to eventually play internationally is just wrong. The system is being abused and this approach by the Celts will exacerbate it. I don't like where it leaves us in terms of team culture. The thought of potentially having the majority of the team with an English accent is quite frankly abhorrent. On the flip side, it does build depth and if we persist with this approach, I would focus on areas where we are historically weak - namely locks.

I like the international ice hockey system personally because it's very strict and all the national teams are heavily based around this is where you rose up the ranks playing hockey. It does lead to like rugby a very tiered haves and have nots structure.

In American rugby we have always used foreigners to shore up the front row - specifically prop - and fly half. We've gotten a little better at props but fly half we continue to nationalize foreigners.

[Hellraiser]

You really don't get it.

[Zakar]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

What a load of shit.

[MrDominator]

Ireland's XV for Saturday is fully one-third Kiwi/South African.

Aki
Lowe
Roux
Gibson-Park
Stander

Embarrassing.

[Flyin Ryan]

Ireland's XV for Saturday is fully one-third Kiwi/South African.

Aki
Lowe
Roux
Gibson-Park
Stander

Embarrassing.

Amhrán na bhFiann

[Blackrock Bullet]

Ireland's XV for Saturday is fully one-third Kiwi/South African.

Aki
Lowe
Roux
Gibson-Park
Stander

Embarrassing.

They're economic migrants and proudly New Irish

[Zakar]

I thought the kiwis were the ones trying to poach the German player?

[LandOTurk]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

Bale went to the same Cardiff school as Sam Warburton didn't he? Hardly any sort of poach.

I wasn't insinuating they were not Welsh. I was just mentioning stars of the game that youngsters could train with.

[LandOTurk]

Ireland's XV for Saturday is fully one-third Kiwi/South African.

Aki
Lowe
Roux
Gibson-Park
Stander

Embarrassing.

Amhrán na bhFiann

It is fkin atrocious.

[LandOTurk]

Ireland's XV for Saturday is fully one-third Kiwi/South African.

Aki
Lowe
Roux
Gibson-Park
Stander

Embarrassing.

They're economic migrants and proudly New Irish

You don't mean that.

[LandOTurk]

Who made him into the player he was? The RFU or the WRU? Obviously he's a product of the English rugby system, and he was born and raised in England. Like I said earlier, he's only Welsh in sentiment. If Wales had a team full of Tom Shanklins in those circumstances, the Welsh national team might as well disappear because there's no difference between them and England. I know it's not going to practically, but that's like the U.S. national rugby league team from the 2013 League World Cup that was full of Australians and Englishmen I highly ridiculed in a column I wrote for an online rugby site. What's the purpose for development at that point if all your team's best players are developed somewhere else? Just throw all your youth development programs in a trashcan because they serve no purpose then if you can just grab players not good enough for their own national teams to come play for you.

Sorry, you are just wrong here. I am very definite that a kid raised in England from 1 or 2 Welsh parents could very much think of themselves as being Welsh, but not always. Take Shanklin. His Dad is full on Welsh born and bred, but post rugby his career took him to England where his son was born. He grew up supporting Wales. Would have gone to support Wales in Cardiff with his rugby mad Dad. England were the enemy.

But growing up, Tom wanted to play rugby. Playing at school, then at a club in his tees, training during the week, playing at weekends. He gets to an age where things get more serious. You can play U15s, U17s etc. Does he travel 3 hours+ each way to train with the Welsh setup, who may not even know him enough to even get an invite. Can the family afford the time or money? Or does he go with local with possibly some people he knows? Its not until he is a pro, early 20s that his ability reaches the attention of Welsh teams and selectors. But oh no, he is born in England. Of course he cant play for Wales. Because he's not Welsh.

What sense does that make??? I am fully against project players - e.g. Ireland starting XV this weekend is 1/3 kiwis and saffers - terrible. I am not even keen on players having a Welsh g/parent being allowed to play, but a Welsh mam or dad who brings them up on stories about Welsh rugby, isn't allowed to play for Wales. That's just shockingly wrong. They are passionately Welsh.

[LandOTurk]

As an aside, Mr Ds pic is of a player who's mam is Welsh - from Carms - just outside Llanelli by the way. He took some development sessions within the Welsh youth setup when he was a teen.

[Short Man Syndrome]

Johnny Williams went to the same primary school as me, a short 2.5hr drive just outside Swansea. We're both proud Welshmen, even if he did play for London Irish for a bit, for a laugh, like.

[SFBB]

I can understand how people might want to limit the qualifying standards to parents only, but there are so many families where grandparents form a core role in raising children that their national identity could easily be influenced by them. I've met lots and lots of "Irish" people born and raised in England who genuinely consider themselves Irish, and from talking about their experiences growing up, they are remarkably similar to my own to the point that I would consider them Irish too.

Personally I would like to see a bit more discretion used in the selection of overseas players, because when I support Ireland I want to be very confident that the players in green feel passionately about representing our Island. Ultimately I can't remember anybody who appeared to be phoning it in, but I would hate to have that be a thing in my mind. CJ Stander may not consider himself Irish in the sense that I consider myself, but he applies himself with a level of passion and commitment that I am content in his selection. Thats the bar for me.

[eldanielfire]

International-level rugby - by far the largest moneymaker in global rugby - continues to become more and more meaningless.

I agree.

The fact is that there are many Celts making a living in England. I went to Uni and worked there for over 10 years. My kids were bornin Wales when I returned. However, if they had been born over the border, raised there, played for England age grade rugby, I still would have expected them to play for Wales. It would of course depend on them, how they felt, and if their mother was English (which she isn't, thank God) it would complicate matters. But I would consider them Welsh. When you start talking grand-parents though, that's a stretch.

The Wales football team has been employing this tactic for well over a decade. Young players train with Ramsey, Bale etc. The line is join us, play with your mates, you meet the stars, you're not just a number because of England's large population, better chance of playing in internationals etc - and it works.

Bale went to the same Cardiff school as Sam Warburton didn't he? Hardly any sort of poach.

I think he's saying that the likes of Ramsey and Bale are acting as influencers to persuade the young players in English clubs to give Wales a shot if they are qualified. Not that Ramsey and Bale are poaches themselves.

Ah. I read it as they were poaches and are encouraging the young players as well to be. I think your take is right.

[eldanielfire]

I wasn't insinuating they were not Welsh. I was just mentioning stars of the game that youngsters could train with.

Fair enough

[Blackrock Bullet]

Ireland's XV for Saturday is fully one-third Kiwi/South African.

Aki
Lowe
Roux
Gibson-Park
Stander

Embarrassing.

They're economic migrants and proudly New Irish

You don't mean that.

I do indeed. Ireland only pick domestically based players. They serve their time before being picked. They take huge personal risks in moving abroad.

Ireland loves our New Irish. The growth in non bloodline foreign born players is great to see, it reflects the nation these days.