U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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Flyin Ryan
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ee/617894/
San Francisco has issued its latest grand moral decree, and bad ex-presidents would be quaking in their coffins—if they could stop laughing.

On January 26, the San Francisco school board announced that dozens of public schools must be renamed. The figures that do not meet the board’s standards include Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, John Muir, Robert Louis Stevenson, Paul Revere, and Dianne Feinstein. A panel had determined that the 44 schools—more than one-third of the city’s total—were named after figures guilty of being, variously, colonizers; slave owners; exploiters of workers; oppressors of women, children, or queer and transgender people; people connected to human rights or environmental abuses; and espousers of racist beliefs.

This holier-than-thou crusade is typical for San Francisco, which in recent years has traded in its freak flag to march under the banner of brain-dead political correctness. Aside from providing invaluable ammunition to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the more than 70 million Trump supporters whose most extreme caricatures of liberals have now been confirmed, renaming the schools is likely to cost the already deeply indebted district millions of dollars, and will not help a single disadvantaged student or actually advance the cause of racial justice. The nation’s reckoning about its racist past might have positive aspects, but exercises in Maoist “constructive self-criticism” are not among them.

The School Names Advisory Committee was created in 2018 by the San Francisco Board of Education. Although the committee of community members and school-board staff was supposed to “engage the larger San Francisco community in a sustained discussion regarding public school names,” no such engagement ever took place. The “blue-ribbon panel” did its own “research” (using that term lightly) and issued its own rulings. In keeping with the incorruptible, Robespierre-like spirit of our revolutionary times, the committee decreed that one sin (being a colonizer or slave owner, using an “inappropriate” word, and so on) was all that was required to send a figure to the guillotine. Once that decision was made, the severed heads rolled into the gutter of history. Since Washington was a slave owner and, in the words of the committee, “the majority of [Lincoln’s] policies proved detrimental” to Native peoples, the leader who won America’s war of independence and the one who saved the union and issued the Emancipation Proclamation were dispatched without further discussion. The decision to rename Abraham Lincoln High took five seconds; George Washington took 12.

The decision process was a joke. The committee’s research seems to have consisted mostly of cursory Google searches, and the sources cited were primarily Wikipedia entries or similar. Historians were not consulted. Embarrassing errors of interpretation were made, as well as rudimentary factual errors. Robert Louis Stevenson, perhaps the most beloved literary figure in the city’s history, was canceled because in a poem titled “Foreign Children” in his famous collection A Child’s Garden of Verses, he used the rhyming word Japanee for Japanese. Paul Revere Elementary School ended up on the renaming list because, during the discussion, a committee member misread a History.com article as claiming that Revere had taken part in an expedition that stole the lands of the Penobscot Indians. In fact, the article described Revere’s role in the Penobscot Expedition, a disastrous American military campaign against the British during the Revolutionary War. (That expedition was named after a bay in Maine.) But no one bothered to check, the committee voted to rename the school, and by order of the San Francisco school board Paul Revere will now ride into oblivion.

The committee also failed to consistently apply its one-strike-and-you’re-out rule. When one member questioned whether Malcolm X Academy should be renamed in light of the fact that Malcolm was once a pimp, and therefore subjugated women, the committee decided that his later career redeemed his earlier missteps. Yet no such exceptions were made for Lincoln, Jefferson, and others on the list.
New Yorker Q&A with one of the renamers: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... ts-schools
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:18 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ee/617894/
San Francisco has issued its latest grand moral decree, and bad ex-presidents would be quaking in their coffins—if they could stop laughing.

On January 26, the San Francisco school board announced that dozens of public schools must be renamed. The figures that do not meet the board’s standards include Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, John Muir, Robert Louis Stevenson, Paul Revere, and Dianne Feinstein. A panel had determined that the 44 schools—more than one-third of the city’s total—were named after figures guilty of being, variously, colonizers; slave owners; exploiters of workers; oppressors of women, children, or queer and transgender people; people connected to human rights or environmental abuses; and espousers of racist beliefs.

This holier-than-thou crusade is typical for San Francisco, which in recent years has traded in its freak flag to march under the banner of brain-dead political correctness. Aside from providing invaluable ammunition to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the more than 70 million Trump supporters whose most extreme caricatures of liberals have now been confirmed, renaming the schools is likely to cost the already deeply indebted district millions of dollars, and will not help a single disadvantaged student or actually advance the cause of racial justice. The nation’s reckoning about its racist past might have positive aspects, but exercises in Maoist “constructive self-criticism” are not among them.

The School Names Advisory Committee was created in 2018 by the San Francisco Board of Education. Although the committee of community members and school-board staff was supposed to “engage the larger San Francisco community in a sustained discussion regarding public school names,” no such engagement ever took place. The “blue-ribbon panel” did its own “research” (using that term lightly) and issued its own rulings. In keeping with the incorruptible, Robespierre-like spirit of our revolutionary times, the committee decreed that one sin (being a colonizer or slave owner, using an “inappropriate” word, and so on) was all that was required to send a figure to the guillotine. Once that decision was made, the severed heads rolled into the gutter of history. Since Washington was a slave owner and, in the words of the committee, “the majority of [Lincoln’s] policies proved detrimental” to Native peoples, the leader who won America’s war of independence and the one who saved the union and issued the Emancipation Proclamation were dispatched without further discussion. The decision to rename Abraham Lincoln High took five seconds; George Washington took 12.

The decision process was a joke. The committee’s research seems to have consisted mostly of cursory Google searches, and the sources cited were primarily Wikipedia entries or similar. Historians were not consulted. Embarrassing errors of interpretation were made, as well as rudimentary factual errors. Robert Louis Stevenson, perhaps the most beloved literary figure in the city’s history, was canceled because in a poem titled “Foreign Children” in his famous collection A Child’s Garden of Verses, he used the rhyming word Japanee for Japanese. Paul Revere Elementary School ended up on the renaming list because, during the discussion, a committee member misread a History.com article as claiming that Revere had taken part in an expedition that stole the lands of the Penobscot Indians. In fact, the article described Revere’s role in the Penobscot Expedition, a disastrous American military campaign against the British during the Revolutionary War. (That expedition was named after a bay in Maine.) But no one bothered to check, the committee voted to rename the school, and by order of the San Francisco school board Paul Revere will now ride into oblivion.

The committee also failed to consistently apply its one-strike-and-you’re-out rule. When one member questioned whether Malcolm X Academy should be renamed in light of the fact that Malcolm was once a pimp, and therefore subjugated women, the committee decided that his later career redeemed his earlier missteps. Yet no such exceptions were made for Lincoln, Jefferson, and others on the list.
New Yorker Q&A with one of the renamers: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... ts-schools
I know it is not universal, I live near to the geographically named Central High School, but does the US stand out in its penchant for naming schools after people?

Having said that, what bad deeds did the "miscreant" John Muir do? Were some of ancestors involved in the Ulster Plantation?
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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puku wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:46 pm
Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:18 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ee/617894/
San Francisco has issued its latest grand moral decree, and bad ex-presidents would be quaking in their coffins—if they could stop laughing.

On January 26, the San Francisco school board announced that dozens of public schools must be renamed. The figures that do not meet the board’s standards include Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, John Muir, Robert Louis Stevenson, Paul Revere, and Dianne Feinstein. A panel had determined that the 44 schools—more than one-third of the city’s total—were named after figures guilty of being, variously, colonizers; slave owners; exploiters of workers; oppressors of women, children, or queer and transgender people; people connected to human rights or environmental abuses; and espousers of racist beliefs.

This holier-than-thou crusade is typical for San Francisco, which in recent years has traded in its freak flag to march under the banner of brain-dead political correctness. Aside from providing invaluable ammunition to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the more than 70 million Trump supporters whose most extreme caricatures of liberals have now been confirmed, renaming the schools is likely to cost the already deeply indebted district millions of dollars, and will not help a single disadvantaged student or actually advance the cause of racial justice. The nation’s reckoning about its racist past might have positive aspects, but exercises in Maoist “constructive self-criticism” are not among them.

The School Names Advisory Committee was created in 2018 by the San Francisco Board of Education. Although the committee of community members and school-board staff was supposed to “engage the larger San Francisco community in a sustained discussion regarding public school names,” no such engagement ever took place. The “blue-ribbon panel” did its own “research” (using that term lightly) and issued its own rulings. In keeping with the incorruptible, Robespierre-like spirit of our revolutionary times, the committee decreed that one sin (being a colonizer or slave owner, using an “inappropriate” word, and so on) was all that was required to send a figure to the guillotine. Once that decision was made, the severed heads rolled into the gutter of history. Since Washington was a slave owner and, in the words of the committee, “the majority of [Lincoln’s] policies proved detrimental” to Native peoples, the leader who won America’s war of independence and the one who saved the union and issued the Emancipation Proclamation were dispatched without further discussion. The decision to rename Abraham Lincoln High took five seconds; George Washington took 12.

The decision process was a joke. The committee’s research seems to have consisted mostly of cursory Google searches, and the sources cited were primarily Wikipedia entries or similar. Historians were not consulted. Embarrassing errors of interpretation were made, as well as rudimentary factual errors. Robert Louis Stevenson, perhaps the most beloved literary figure in the city’s history, was canceled because in a poem titled “Foreign Children” in his famous collection A Child’s Garden of Verses, he used the rhyming word Japanee for Japanese. Paul Revere Elementary School ended up on the renaming list because, during the discussion, a committee member misread a History.com article as claiming that Revere had taken part in an expedition that stole the lands of the Penobscot Indians. In fact, the article described Revere’s role in the Penobscot Expedition, a disastrous American military campaign against the British during the Revolutionary War. (That expedition was named after a bay in Maine.) But no one bothered to check, the committee voted to rename the school, and by order of the San Francisco school board Paul Revere will now ride into oblivion.

The committee also failed to consistently apply its one-strike-and-you’re-out rule. When one member questioned whether Malcolm X Academy should be renamed in light of the fact that Malcolm was once a pimp, and therefore subjugated women, the committee decided that his later career redeemed his earlier missteps. Yet no such exceptions were made for Lincoln, Jefferson, and others on the list.
New Yorker Q&A with one of the renamers: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... ts-schools
I know it is not universal, I live near to the geographically named Central High School, but does the US stand out in its penchant for naming schools after people?

Having said that, what bad deeds did the "miscreant" John Muir do? Were some of ancestors involved in the Ulster Plantation?
Yes. Problem is especially if you have a lot of schools, at some point you run out of geography to name after or the geography you call pull is just the name of the road the school's on and that's it. Throw on top of it people in positions of authority may want to honor someone for whatever reason. Where I grew up all the elementaries save one was named after local political or educator figures that were otherwise totally unremarkable. School district my kids will attend there's one school named after an educator and another named after a local Native American chief.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:18 pm
puku wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:46 pm
Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:18 pm https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ee/617894/
San Francisco has issued its latest grand moral decree, and bad ex-presidents would be quaking in their coffins—if they could stop laughing.

On January 26, the San Francisco school board announced that dozens of public schools must be renamed. The figures that do not meet the board’s standards include Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt, John Muir, Robert Louis Stevenson, Paul Revere, and Dianne Feinstein. A panel had determined that the 44 schools—more than one-third of the city’s total—were named after figures guilty of being, variously, colonizers; slave owners; exploiters of workers; oppressors of women, children, or queer and transgender people; people connected to human rights or environmental abuses; and espousers of racist beliefs.

This holier-than-thou crusade is typical for San Francisco, which in recent years has traded in its freak flag to march under the banner of brain-dead political correctness. Aside from providing invaluable ammunition to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the more than 70 million Trump supporters whose most extreme caricatures of liberals have now been confirmed, renaming the schools is likely to cost the already deeply indebted district millions of dollars, and will not help a single disadvantaged student or actually advance the cause of racial justice. The nation’s reckoning about its racist past might have positive aspects, but exercises in Maoist “constructive self-criticism” are not among them.

The School Names Advisory Committee was created in 2018 by the San Francisco Board of Education. Although the committee of community members and school-board staff was supposed to “engage the larger San Francisco community in a sustained discussion regarding public school names,” no such engagement ever took place. The “blue-ribbon panel” did its own “research” (using that term lightly) and issued its own rulings. In keeping with the incorruptible, Robespierre-like spirit of our revolutionary times, the committee decreed that one sin (being a colonizer or slave owner, using an “inappropriate” word, and so on) was all that was required to send a figure to the guillotine. Once that decision was made, the severed heads rolled into the gutter of history. Since Washington was a slave owner and, in the words of the committee, “the majority of [Lincoln’s] policies proved detrimental” to Native peoples, the leader who won America’s war of independence and the one who saved the union and issued the Emancipation Proclamation were dispatched without further discussion. The decision to rename Abraham Lincoln High took five seconds; George Washington took 12.

The decision process was a joke. The committee’s research seems to have consisted mostly of cursory Google searches, and the sources cited were primarily Wikipedia entries or similar. Historians were not consulted. Embarrassing errors of interpretation were made, as well as rudimentary factual errors. Robert Louis Stevenson, perhaps the most beloved literary figure in the city’s history, was canceled because in a poem titled “Foreign Children” in his famous collection A Child’s Garden of Verses, he used the rhyming word Japanee for Japanese. Paul Revere Elementary School ended up on the renaming list because, during the discussion, a committee member misread a History.com article as claiming that Revere had taken part in an expedition that stole the lands of the Penobscot Indians. In fact, the article described Revere’s role in the Penobscot Expedition, a disastrous American military campaign against the British during the Revolutionary War. (That expedition was named after a bay in Maine.) But no one bothered to check, the committee voted to rename the school, and by order of the San Francisco school board Paul Revere will now ride into oblivion.

The committee also failed to consistently apply its one-strike-and-you’re-out rule. When one member questioned whether Malcolm X Academy should be renamed in light of the fact that Malcolm was once a pimp, and therefore subjugated women, the committee decided that his later career redeemed his earlier missteps. Yet no such exceptions were made for Lincoln, Jefferson, and others on the list.
New Yorker Q&A with one of the renamers: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... ts-schools
I know it is not universal, I live near to the geographically named Central High School, but does the US stand out in its penchant for naming schools after people?

Having said that, what bad deeds did the "miscreant" John Muir do? Were some of ancestors involved in the Ulster Plantation?
Yes. Problem is especially if you have a lot of schools, at some point you run out of geography to name after or the geography you call pull is just the name of the road the school's on and that's it. Throw on top of it people in positions of authority may want to honor someone for whatever reason. Where I grew up all the elementaries save one was named after local political or educator figures that were otherwise totally unremarkable. School district my kids will attend there's one school named after an educator and another named after a local Native American chief.
My son goes to a HS named after the St Paul suburb it is located in, but I know what you mean. One of the metro exurbs came up with the catchy Lakeville North and Lakeville South. Schools are often defined by their mascots. But that can introduce another level of confusion.

Btw, that Q&A with the SFSB head is cringeworthy, she seems out of her depth and so, so earnest.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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TheFrog wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:28 pm
Now that we are done with the Trump impeachment mascarade and that the GOP Senators have demonstrated their courage and integrity, let's move back to President Biden's actions.

Next big debate is the minimum wage.

I am curious to learn and be educated on the matter. I find it an interesting debate. On one side, I hear the argument that hiking the cost of manpower can potentially hurt the economy and businesses and thus kill employment. On the other, I wonder what is the value of employment to a human being if it doesn't pay your bills?
I'm on the fence really. A $15 minimum wage is only a $1.50 increase from what it is in Boston, so I wholeheartedly support that. On the other hand, that's more than double the current minimum wage in Alabama. You don't have to be Murray Rothbard to see how that's just going to result in massive unemployment. I also tend wonder if there'd be big effects on inflation.

The minimum wage definitely needs to be raised, but this push for the magical nationwide $15 minimum wage is just a stupid meme.

Nobody would like to see corporate America take a swift kick in the dick more than me, but the fact of the matter is they have the resources to maneuver around this more effectively than most realize; as FR implies you're never gonna see another cashier in Walmart, McDonalds, etc. Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier. Others are still as they've been for probably 10-15 years (2/3s cashiers with a self checkout area), but if this comes to pass those poor bastards will be served their pink slips the next week.

And those are the people it's supposed to help. I don't think anybody in their right mind seriously thinks this bodes well for small businesses or their employees out in the sticks or in flyover country. But they're used to being f**ked over so they'll probably take it better than the former.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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One same minimum wage for all the States is, I suppose, intended to prevent completion between States. You don't want to see all businesses leave the East Coast to settle in Alabama.

Regarding salary vs employment, I repeat my point. What does employment mean when it is so poorly paid and precarious, it doesn't pay your bills and you remain poor?

Finally, regarding automation, I believe it is coming, minimum wage or not, because machines are always cheaper than humans once they are optimized. And they will slowly take more and more sophisticated jobs away from us.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

Post by fonzeee »

TheFrog wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:37 pm One same minimum wage for all the States is, I suppose, intended to prevent completion between States. You don't want to see all businesses leave the East Coast to settle in Alabama.

Regarding salary vs employment, I repeat my point. What does employment mean when it is so poorly paid and precarious, it doesn't pay your bills and you remain poor?

Finally, regarding automation, I believe it is coming, minimum wage or not, because machines are always cheaper than humans once they are optimized. And they will slowly take more and more sophisticated jobs away from us.
I get your point but this one-dimensional "solution" will only guarantee no employment at all for many and exacerbate poverty conditions for millions. I hate to concede anything to the free market zealots (and have little doubt their concern is rooted mostly in how this will effect their beloved oligarc--sorry, "job creators") but they're generally right on this point.

The fact is we need a vast array of reforms to safeguard low-income workers and lift up the bottom rung of society, but this is just another one of the half-assed focus-group-tested measures that our system specializes in. Not to mention we'll surely see the enactment of other policies that will only undermine this one; I didn't have time to comment but I recall you posting an article about how this administration plans to greatly expand immigration, for instance. Yeah, that'll help the poor alright.

I know people will disagree but we should be legislating against automation, at least in the interim period between now and when we can (possibly...) orient our workforce to survive in that world. His campaign was mostly a goofy publicity stunt but Andrew Yang was right about this. People say it's "inevitable"; well, yeah, if you sit there and do fck all about it, it is.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment. We had a fully automated grocery store here for a while, but they had about as much staff as a regular supermarket of the same size because they were constantly stocking the shelves and, yes, helping people who couldn’t work the self checkout.

Automation has always reduced the number of man-hours needed to do certain tasks, but overall that has freed people to do more tasks.

A friend posted a while back about indexing the minimum wage vs the mean or median wage and cost of living in each state. So Alabama’s min wage would actually be closer to $12/13, whereas California would be up near $20 (or more?). Obviously to make it work, that would be reassessed on a regular basis (the current federal min has been in place since well before I first came to CA in 2002, so it’s long overdue due an increase) so the broke states can’t just low-ball everybody forever.

Also, apparently most (as in, comfortably more than half, but depending on which account you read) undocumented immigrants do find a way to pay taxes. They generally want to apply for citizenship at some point down the line whenever the next amnesty comes up, and most of them think that having a record of paying taxes will look favorably for them when that time comes.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 am Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment.
It will in a scenario where the whole reason it's being implemented is to offset a massive increase in the price for labor. A good many shelf stockers will probably lose their job too. I mean seriously, which do people think is going to happen: that employers are just going to eat this cost (the ones that can afford to anyway), or that they will cut those costs by firing people and devising workarounds (including just letting quality suffer because whatever remains of their non-corporate competition will be circling the drain)?

A state-variable minimum wage pegged to inflation and costs of living is obviously the answer (as I infer from your post you agree with). Is this $15 thing just a bargaining position that the Democrats will have the discipline to leverage into such a thing? I'd like to think so, but I'll believe it when I see it.
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I think a variable minimum is only sensible. Ideally it would vary by county, but even by state you’ll have people “living poor and working rich.”
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

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DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:39 am I think a variable minimum is only sensible. Ideally it would vary by county, but even by state you’ll have people “living poor and working rich.”
That's not a bad idea, don't know if that's something that could be done but know of no reason it couldn't be.
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fonzeee wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:34 am
DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 am Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment.
It will in a scenario where the whole reason it's being implemented is to offset a massive increase in the price for labor. A good many shelf stockers will probably lose their job too. I mean seriously, which do people think is going to happen: that employers are just going to eat this cost (the ones that can afford to anyway), or that they will cut those costs by firing people and devising workarounds (including just letting quality suffer because whatever remains of their non-corporate competition will be circling the drain)?

A state-variable minimum wage pegged to inflation and costs of living is obviously the answer (as I infer from your post you agree with). Is this $15 thing just a bargaining position that the Democrats will have the discipline to leverage into such a thing? I'd like to think so, but I'll believe it when I see it.
The $15/hour minimum wage issue is a bit of a "false flag". The proposal seems that the minimum wage proposal starts at $9.50/hour (last I've seen) increasing to $15/hour in 2025 for Federal employees and contractors as well as employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act

29 States already have minimum wages above the current $7.25/hour, some as high as $14.00/hour. Of the rest most have minimum wages equal to the Federal minimum wage

https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/ ... e-by-state

$7.25/hour has been the minimum wage for the last 11+ years.

Interesting article - https://www.epi.org/publication/why-ame ... imum-wage/

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Last edited by Jensrsa on Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

Post by Sensible Stephen »

Flyin Ryan wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:18 pm
New Yorker Q&A with one of the renamers: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/ ... ts-schools
Thats breathtaking. Like that Atlantic article says, its just makes those Fox liberal caricatures real. Seriously, someone with half a brain should just stop this.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

Post by fonzeee »

Jensrsa wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:28 am
fonzeee wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:34 am
DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 am Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment.
It will in a scenario where the whole reason it's being implemented is to offset a massive increase in the price for labor. A good many shelf stockers will probably lose their job too. I mean seriously, which do people think is going to happen: that employers are just going to eat this cost (the ones that can afford to anyway), or that they will cut those costs by firing people and devising workarounds (including just letting quality suffer because whatever remains of their non-corporate competition will be circling the drain)?

A state-variable minimum wage pegged to inflation and costs of living is obviously the answer (as I infer from your post you agree with). Is this $15 thing just a bargaining position that the Democrats will have the discipline to leverage into such a thing? I'd like to think so, but I'll believe it when I see it.
The $15/hour minimum wage issue is a bit of a "false flag". The proposal seems that the minimum wage proposal starts at $9.50/hour (last I've seen) increasing to $15/hour in 2025 for Federal employees and contractors as well as employers subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act

29 States already have minimum wages above the current $7.25/hour, some as high as $14.00/hour. Of the rest most have minimum wages equal to the Federal minimum wage

https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/ ... e-by-state

$7.25/hour has been the minimum wage for the last 11+ years.
That's basically everyone, even mom-and-pops. And 2025 is just under four years away. It is essentially what people are saying it is.
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

Post by DOB »

fonzeee wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:49 am
DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:39 am I think a variable minimum is only sensible. Ideally it would vary by county, but even by state you’ll have people “living poor and working rich.”
That's not a bad idea, don't know if that's something that could be done but know of no reason it couldn't be.
One reason I can think of against it is that it would promote long commute distances. I live in a wealthy county. The counties to the south, east and north are poorer, and people commute here from there. If we had a higher minimum wage, it would increase that, and so increase traffic, travel times, gas emissions etc. I don’t know by how much, though.

Even by state you’re going to get that, though. Hell I worked with people in San Diego who used to commute from Tijuana.
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:lol: Some crazy 3rd world shit that.
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DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 am Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment.

Used to be the common belief among economists, and was backed up by data as long as people newly gained access to education meant the population could move to new, less manual jobs.

However the latest trends show that this is no longer the case, and, as IA and robotics get more and more powerful, we are coming to a point where humans may no longer be necessary to the economy. Which will be problematic in itself if wealthy isn't shared with those doing nothing as a result of this.
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Bernie Sanders @BernieSanders · 26m
I stand in strong solidarity with fast food workers all over this country who are going on strike today to demand $15 an hour and a union. The Senate must raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour with 51 votes this year. We have got to end the crisis of starvation wages in America.
Americans are going to starve if this gets worker support.
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Image


Very investing graphs showing that wealth increase doesn't benefit those who live at the bottom of the food chain. Clearly highlights the point that I was making that while employment may be created, people at the bottom of the food chain earn less and less comparatively to the growth of the economy and most likely the cost of life... meaning they work to get poorer. Not a healthy model and, IMHO, one of the reasons Trump had so much success as a lot of these people are losing faith in the current brand of politicians. It also explains the success of the likes of Sanders and AOC on the other end of the spectrum.
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TheFrog wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:14 pm
DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 am Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment.

Used to be the common belief among economists, and was backed up by data as long as people newly gained access to education meant the population could move to new, less manual jobs.

However the latest trends show that this is no longer the case, and, as IA and robotics get more and more powerful, we are coming to a point where humans may no longer be necessary to the economy. Which will be problematic in itself if wealthy isn't shared with those doing nothing as a result of this.
For me, this is why Andrew Yang's ideas resonated.
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TheFrog wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:20 pm Image


Very investing graphs showing that wealth increase doesn't benefit those who live at the bottom of the food chain. Clearly highlights the point that I was making that while employment may be created, people at the bottom of the food chain earn less and less comparatively to the growth of the economy and most likely the cost of life... meaning they work to get poorer. Not a healthy model and, IMHO, one of the reasons Trump had so much success as a lot of these people are losing faith in the current brand of politicians. It also explains the success of the likes of Sanders and AOC on the other end of the spectrum.
The above graph doesn't factor in changes to Federal tax law, so might be slightly misleading. Things like earned income credits, child tax credits help those on lower wages. However, having said that, part of the burden of wages is just shifted from the employer to the tax paying base. Or put another way, a subsidy to those employers allowing them to maintain those low wages.
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The living wage in the United States is $16.54 per hour, or $68,808 per year, in 2019, before taxes for a family of four (two working adults, two children), compared to $16.14 in 2018.

The minimum wage does not provide a living wage for most American families. A typical family of four (two working adults, two children) needs to work nearly four full-time minimum-wage jobs (a 75-hour work week per working adult) to earn a living wage. Single-parent families need to work almost twice as hard as families with two working adults to earn the living wage. A single-mother with two children earning the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour needs to work 138 hours per week, nearly the equivalent of working 24 hours per day for six days, to earn a living wage.

Across all family sizes, the living wage exceeds the poverty threshold, often used to identify need. State minimum wages provide for only a portion of the living wage. For two adult, two children families, the minimum wage covers 73.1% of the living wage at best in the District of Columbia and 41.1% at worst in Virginia. This means that families earning between the poverty threshold ($25,953 for two working adults, two children on average in 2019) and the living wage $68,808) on average for two working adults, two children per year before taxes), may fall short of the income and assistance they require to meet their basic needs.
The living wage in urban areas is higher than the national median. Consistent with overall regional variation, of the most populous 100 metropolitan areas, New York City ($93,851), San Francisco ($94,741), and San Jose ($98,240) have the highest living wages for the typical family of four, before taxes.
https://livingwage.mit.edu/articles/61- ... n-the-tool
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Jensrsa wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:49 pm
The living wage in the United States is $16.54 per hour, or $68,808 per year, in 2019, before taxes for a family of four (two working adults, two children), compared to $16.14 in 2018.

The minimum wage does not provide a living wage for most American families. A typical family of four (two working adults, two children) needs to work nearly four full-time minimum-wage jobs (a 75-hour work week per working adult) to earn a living wage. Single-parent families need to work almost twice as hard as families with two working adults to earn the living wage. A single-mother with two children earning the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour needs to work 138 hours per week, nearly the equivalent of working 24 hours per day for six days, to earn a living wage.

Across all family sizes, the living wage exceeds the poverty threshold, often used to identify need. State minimum wages provide for only a portion of the living wage. For two adult, two children families, the minimum wage covers 73.1% of the living wage at best in the District of Columbia and 41.1% at worst in Virginia. This means that families earning between the poverty threshold ($25,953 for two working adults, two children on average in 2019) and the living wage $68,808) on average for two working adults, two children per year before taxes), may fall short of the income and assistance they require to meet their basic needs.
The living wage in urban areas is higher than the national median. Consistent with overall regional variation, of the most populous 100 metropolitan areas, New York City ($93,851), San Francisco ($94,741), and San Jose ($98,240) have the highest living wages for the typical family of four, before taxes.
https://livingwage.mit.edu/articles/61- ... n-the-tool
Intresting because the median wage in France is about 39,000 euros, about 48,000 USD. Post taxes, I guess it is about 80% of that.

Cost of employment, though, is higher as employers usually pay 30% of their employees salaries in taxes.

Still, when I am told France employment cost is not competitive, it may not be in relation to Bangladesh but definitely is in comparison to the US.
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TheFrog wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:57 pm
Jensrsa wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:49 pm
The living wage in the United States is $16.54 per hour, or $68,808 per year, in 2019, before taxes for a family of four (two working adults, two children), compared to $16.14 in 2018.

The minimum wage does not provide a living wage for most American families. A typical family of four (two working adults, two children) needs to work nearly four full-time minimum-wage jobs (a 75-hour work week per working adult) to earn a living wage. Single-parent families need to work almost twice as hard as families with two working adults to earn the living wage. A single-mother with two children earning the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour needs to work 138 hours per week, nearly the equivalent of working 24 hours per day for six days, to earn a living wage.

Across all family sizes, the living wage exceeds the poverty threshold, often used to identify need. State minimum wages provide for only a portion of the living wage. For two adult, two children families, the minimum wage covers 73.1% of the living wage at best in the District of Columbia and 41.1% at worst in Virginia. This means that families earning between the poverty threshold ($25,953 for two working adults, two children on average in 2019) and the living wage $68,808) on average for two working adults, two children per year before taxes), may fall short of the income and assistance they require to meet their basic needs.
The living wage in urban areas is higher than the national median. Consistent with overall regional variation, of the most populous 100 metropolitan areas, New York City ($93,851), San Francisco ($94,741), and San Jose ($98,240) have the highest living wages for the typical family of four, before taxes.
https://livingwage.mit.edu/articles/61- ... n-the-tool
Intresting because the median wage in France is about 39,000 euros, about 48,000 USD. Post taxes, I guess it is about 80% of that.

Cost of employment, though, is higher as employers usually pay 30% of their employees salaries in taxes.

Still, when I am told France employment cost is not competitive, it may not be in relation to Bangladesh but definitely is in comparison to the US.
Stats vary depending on the research. In one report I saw the lowest living wage by state is $58k (can't remember which state)

Here are the 10 states with the lowest livable wages from another site:

Kentucky ($43,000)
West Virginia ($45,000)
South Dakota ($45,000)
Arkansas ($45,000)
Ohio ($46,000)
Missouri ($46,000)
Mississippi ($46,000)
Idaho ($46,000)
Alabama ($46,000)
Tennessee ($47,000)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state ... e-by-state

New York State is only $59,000 but I suppose NYC varies a lot, as does most cities, depending where you live
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Seems Texas energy companies are geared to profit off this. From the article you linked to:
In Texas, where both wind and gas-fired generation was hit by the cold snap, there wasn’t enough reserve power to keep the lights on.

Besides the impact on households, the cold is wreaking havoc on the energy industry itself. U.S. oil production has dropped by well over a million barrels a day, helping U.S. crude prices trade above $60 a barrel for the first time in more than year. The region’s refining complex -- which produces almost half of the nation’s fuel -- is struggling to limp along without power and gas supplies. Some of the largest oil refineries have shut altogether, threatening to reduce supplies of gasoline and diesel across the country.

Natural gas production has also been curtailed just as the cold caused demand to jump. At the Waha hub in Texas gas changed hands at $500 per million British thermal units on Monday, more than 100 times the price at the Henry Hub, the benchmark for the wider U.S.

Power plants with a combined capacity of more than 34 gigawatts were forced offline on Monday, including nuclear reactors, coal and gas generators and wind farms. It’s not yet clear why. Early on Tuesday, power generation in Texas had yet to stage any significant recovery.
Average spot power across the Texas grid hit the state’s $9,000 per megawatt-hour price cap again on Monday. Liquefied natural gas exports from the U.S. plummeted after the freeze shut ports and wells. West Texas Intermediate futures rose by as much as 2.5%, above $60 a barrel for the first time in more than a year. Physical natural gas prices have swung anywhere between $50 to the high of $600 per million British thermal units
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TheFrog wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:37 pm One same minimum wage for all the States is, I suppose, intended to prevent completion between States. You don't want to see all businesses leave the East Coast to settle in Alabama.
Drive around upstate New York sometime.
Regarding salary vs employment, I repeat my point. What does employment mean when it is so poorly paid and precarious, it doesn't pay your bills and you remain poor?
Why don't people understand what is really going on? We're in the middle of a global arbitrage. The fall of communism and the opening up of the greater world via the Internet and improved communications meaning a random person in Beijing can talk to a person in New York in 10 seconds, something completely alien just 30 years ago, it's driven the world economy to where everything is going to where everything can be made cheapest, compounded by currency manipulation. You can see this in inflation/deflation statistics because the Western economies can't stimulate any inflation in their economies and the largely unspoken factor is if you shift manufacturing to China you've reduced your costs in a giant race to the bottom, which aids consumption but also means there's less money to spend on that consumption. If you're one of the persons connected to this supply chain and able to reap the windfall, good for you. But that's a very tiny percentage of the population, and outfits like Amazon make that group even tinier. I can look and see "if I can get a Chinese manufacturer to undercut my competitor and produce 100k widgets, I'll be very successful", but I don't have the capacity to do that. Most everyone doesn't.

The end result of this is either greater trade protectionism (it seems to be where both major American political parties are heading) or the Western economies collapse because at some point no one's going to buy U.S. treasuries or euro bunds anymore if they continue having the government fund everything with little to back it up. But for some reason no one wants to acknowledge the elephant in the room that a lower-class person in Shanghai working up to middle-class largely means a middle-class person in Cleveland becomes lower-class. Yes, group A getting wealthier can benefit group B, but it's at best a small correlation and the way the world works it's largely a zero-sum game. The best way to fix it is to completely destroy currency manipulation by declaring Bretton Woods II moribund, maybe go into China as a state and forcibly buy yuans against their will.

In the end, it doesn't matter. The Democrats and Republicans are going to become more statists because it's what the population demands, the population will become more worthless, and give it 30 years the Chinese will f*#k us in the ass because they are a unitary body focused on one thing and one thing only, while we have politicians that don't understand what the game is and can't focus on anything beyond their next election. So sure, pass a $15 minimum wage, and make it even more of the population completely unemployable...unless they move to Tijuana and become a Mexican citizen, then they can cross the border and be paid a black market rate undercutting the $15 minimum wage which the government and politicians will continue to ignore.
Last edited by Flyin Ryan on Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2021 ... .html#more

Image
In analyzing whether inflation is coming, Mickey Levy at Berenberg Capital https://www.berenberg.de/fileadmin/web/ ... ation=true passes along the above graph. These are price indices, so the upward or downward slope measures inflation. Is there inflation? That depends on whether you ask durable goods or services.

Why are we experiencing durable good deflation, and will it last? Part of the answer is quality adjustment:
The Bureau of Economic Analysis' (BEA's) official inflation indexes are based surveys of product prices that are adjusted for estimates of quality improvements in new products and services.

Quality adjustments have had a pronounced impact on the PCE price index of durable goods, which has declined 38% over the last 26 years, despite sizable increasers in many pcorudct prices... (For example, the average sticker price of an automobile has roughly tripled since the mid-1990s, but, because of estimated quality adjustments, the BERA's PCE price index of automobiles and parts has risen only 9% since January 1995.)
That raises an eyebrow. Yes, a 2021 computer is more than three times better than a 1995 computer, so if you buy it at about the same price, which you do, we can call that deflation. Is a 2021 car really three times better than a 1995 car? Hmm. However, most economic analysis suggests that the BEA understates the quality improvement of new goods, so there is actually more deflation than it seems here.

Mickey notes
advancements in the distribution of goods has reduced prices of goods and services.
So part of the story is Wal-Mart and Amazon.

Mickey attributes the decline in durable goods prices to productivity improvements. But if you run down to Home Depot and look around the selection of power tools (guilty habit), however, a glaring contributor has to be China, as well as innovation. Electric motors got cheap, yes, but you can only buy a pressure washer for $50 because of China. That source of price decline may not last.
Services?
... Quality adjustments in services is much more difficult to measure (i.e. medical services) and in meany services, quality has not improved much over time ..the PCE price index for services has risen at an average annualized pace of 2.6% since the mid-1990s, and 2.1% during ...2009-2019
I push back a little. If it is difficult to measure, how do we know quality has not improved much over time? But it is true that medical services, paid and provided by the most arcane system devised by human mind, do not bear the marks of the sort of innovation and efficiency gains we see in durable goods. The quality gain is mostly scientific advance.

So, looking at inflation, roughly 70% of the price index comes from services. Of that about half is housing services -- yes, the BEA counts housing as a service, not a durable good. Here the BEA tries to figure out the rental value of houses and quality adjust -- and health care where who knows what the prices mean. Many prices are either determined by Medicare or Medicaid, or insurance negotiation which specify those prices plus a percentage. Is an hour of a lawyer's time better than it was in 2010? An hour of university instruction? (No. Worse, I would guess in the humanities, better in computer science.)

I hope I am unsettling you about just how much we really understand about inflation. That the Fed is obsessing over 1.7% vs. 2% seems a bit strange. Rather than look at a few tenths of a percent variation over time, if we look at variation across goods categories, across methods of accounting for quality change, across space -- the price level in Palo Alto seems about 3 times higher than it is in, say, Reno -- and across people -- the stuff that people with lower incomes buy has gotten a lot cheaper, and the stuff that wealthy people buy has gotten more expensive, a fact our inequality worriers might note some day -- we might get a truer picture of just how fuzzy our measurements are.

I don't know what happens to inflation in the short run. But if this graph is true -- services are inflating 2.5%, really are not having much quality improvement, durable goods are deflating 1% due to continued quality improvement -- the long run means more inflation. As durable goods prices decline, unless people buy proportionally more of them, durable goods become a smaller and smaller part of the shopping basket. Then the CPI weights them less relative to services. We have already seen many goods become free such as maps. They then disappear from the CPI. Inflation then becomes the inflation of services only.
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Brandon Friedman @BFriedmanDC
Here are three Texas Republicans mocking California power outages last year and my Dallas bathtub this morning, a literal block of ice
Image

Image

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Flyin Ryan wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:43 pm
TheFrog wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:37 pm One same minimum wage for all the States is, I suppose, intended to prevent completion between States. You don't want to see all businesses leave the East Coast to settle in Alabama.
Drive around upstate New York sometime.
Regarding salary vs employment, I repeat my point. What does employment mean when it is so poorly paid and precarious, it doesn't pay your bills and you remain poor?
Why don't people understand what is really going on? We're in the middle of a global arbitrage. The fall of communism and the opening up of the greater world via the Internet and improved communications meaning a random person in Beijing can talk to a person in New York in 10 seconds, something completely alien just 30 years ago, it's driven the world economy to where everything is going to where everything can be made cheapest, compounded by currency manipulation. You can see this in inflation/deflation statistics because the Western economies can't stimulate any inflation in their economies and the largely unspoken factor is if you shift manufacturing to China you've reduced your costs in a giant race to the bottom, which aids consumption but also means there's less money to spend on that consumption. If you're one of the persons connected to this supply chain and able to reap the windfall, good for you. But that's a very tiny percentage of the population, and outfits like Amazon make that group even tinier. I can look and see "if I can get a Chinese manufacturer to undercut my competitor and produce 100k widgets, I'll be very successful", but I don't have the capacity to do that. Most everyone doesn't.

The end result of this is either greater trade protectionism (it seems to be where both major American political parties are heading) or the Western economies collapse because at some point no one's going to buy U.S. treasuries or euro bunds anymore if they continue having the government fund everything with little to back it up. But for some reason no one wants to acknowledge the elephant in the room that a lower-class person in Shanghai working up to middle-class largely means a middle-class person in Cleveland becomes lower-class. Yes, group A getting wealthier can benefit group B, but it's at best a small correlation and the way the world works it's largely a zero-sum game. The best way to fix it is to completely destroy currency manipulation by declaring Bretton Woods II moribund, maybe go into China as a state and forcibly buy yuans against their will.

In the end, it doesn't matter. The Democrats and Republicans are going to become more statists because it's what the population demands, the population will become more worthless, and give it 30 years the Chinese will f*#k us in the ass because they are a unitary body focused on one thing and one thing only, while we have politicians that don't understand what the game is and can't focus on anything beyond their next election. So sure, pass a $15 minimum wage, and make it even more of the population completely unemployable...unless they move to Tijuana and become a Mexican citizen, then they can cross the border and be paid a black market rate undercutting the $15 minimum wage which the government and politicians will continue to ignore.
I think everybody understands the world is more and more efficiently connected. We also understand that some super powers are rising in China, India and soon other populous countries with a lot of youth like Indonesia and Nigeria.

Protectionism has been tried before and I am not sure it is the answer. It creates inflation at home and makes exporting your own products even more difficult. Though the USA benefit from a greater domestic market than a lot of countries around the world, this isn't sustainable on the long term.

Free trade creates what you describe, i.e. the transfer of wealth from one country to another. Somewhat fair in a way, with the interesting longer term impact that the new richer countries become too expensive too. The Shanghai middle class example you took would be well worth looking into. Between 2000 and 2020, I bet the gap in income between this person and a middle class New Yorker has got smaller.

The only solution, but one that doesn't suit those who profit at the top of the food chain would be global trade agreements, with quality standards, social minima etc... leveling the ground for everybody and protecting the poorer.

But our wealthier countries will continue to see their wealth eroding and I don’t think there is any stopping that.
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Yes, a 2021 computer is more than three times better than a 1995 computer, so if you buy it at about the same price, which you do, we can call that deflation.
Well that's stupid. A 2021 computer that's only 3 times better than a 1995 computer is going to be way behind on where the current basic software is. Also, in 1995 the number of families that needed a computer was significantly lower, and the number of computers in that family (1 HP tower in the study or living room) vs the number of computers they have today (2 laptops, multiple tablets, possibly an upgrade version of the same tower PC in the living room...) is much greater. Ultimately, the family spend on computer-related goods and services is probably several times higher now than it was in the mid-90s.
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DOB wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:52 am Automation doesn’t have to mean unemployment. We had a fully automated grocery store here for a while, but they had about as much staff as a regular supermarket of the same size because they were constantly stocking the shelves and, yes, helping people who couldn’t work the self checkout.
This isn't exactly true:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... work-study
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fonzeee wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier.
The speciality of conservatives. Blaming progressive policies that haven't even been implemented yet for the negative outcomes of capitalism under conservative governments.
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4071 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 pm
fonzeee wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier.
The speciality of conservatives. Blaming progressive policies that haven't even been implemented yet for the negative outcomes of capitalism under conservative governments.
Yeah, that's totally what's going on here. And if there's anything that can be gleaned from my posts it's that I just loooooooove capitalism. FFS

And PS: there's nothing "conservative" about ceding control of society to multinational corporations
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4071 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 pm
fonzeee wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier.
The speciality of conservatives. Blaming progressive policies that haven't even been implemented yet for the negative outcomes of capitalism under conservative governments.
It's utter bullshit isn't it? Up there with their "we need smaller government, no social programs, except for big cheques for massive corporations with makes many millions or billions" crap.
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fonzeee wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:20 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 pm
fonzeee wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier.
The speciality of conservatives. Blaming progressive policies that haven't even been implemented yet for the negative outcomes of capitalism under conservative governments.
Yeah, that's totally what's going on here. And if there's anything that can be gleaned from my posts it's that I just loooooooove capitalism. FFS

And PS: there's nothing "conservative" about ceding control of society to multinational corporations
But nether-the-less Republicans and those conservatives who claim to be "free marketers" frequently mean exactly that.

However I am aware you lean more towards the Saagar Enjeti position on conservatism here.
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eldanielfire wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:58 am
fonzeee wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:20 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 pm
fonzeee wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier.
The speciality of conservatives. Blaming progressive policies that haven't even been implemented yet for the negative outcomes of capitalism under conservative governments.
Yeah, that's totally what's going on here. And if there's anything that can be gleaned from my posts it's that I just loooooooove capitalism. FFS

And PS: there's nothing "conservative" about ceding control of society to multinational corporations
But nether-the-less Republicans and those conservatives who claim to be "free marketers" frequently mean exactly that.

However I am aware you lean more towards the Saagar Enjeti position on conservatism here.
Oh no one's doubting that.

Don't know who that is but I'll give him a google.
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eldanielfire
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

Post by eldanielfire »

fonzeee wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:30 am
eldanielfire wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:58 am
fonzeee wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:20 pm
4071 wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:58 pm
fonzeee wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:18 pm Now that I think about it I wonder if businesses have already been bracing for this as I went to a Walmart around here about a year ago that was already fully automated at checkout. Not a single cashier.
The speciality of conservatives. Blaming progressive policies that haven't even been implemented yet for the negative outcomes of capitalism under conservative governments.
Yeah, that's totally what's going on here. And if there's anything that can be gleaned from my posts it's that I just loooooooove capitalism. FFS

And PS: there's nothing "conservative" about ceding control of society to multinational corporations
But nether-the-less Republicans and those conservatives who claim to be "free marketers" frequently mean exactly that.

However I am aware you lean more towards the Saagar Enjeti position on conservatism here.
Oh no one's doubting that.

Don't know who that is but I'll give him a google.
You need to watch the Hill's Rising with Krystal and Saagar. Easily the best and most unbiased political commentary in the USA. It's presented by a lefty Dem and a social Conservative who happily call out the two big parties for the pro-corporate interests, hypocrisy etc. Call out the media for their controlling agenda and push of woke politics and corporate support and how the masses get screwed by the people. They both really know their shit as well. Both massive well read as well. Joe Rogan had them on one time as he's a fan.
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Big Nipper
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Re: U.S. politics thread and Joe Biden-the Ronan O'Gara of U.S. Presidents

Post by Big Nipper »

Joe Rogan is a massive twat though, he hardly asks the hard questions to the "edgy" plums he gives airtime to
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