Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

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mdaclarke
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Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by mdaclarke »

https://extra.ie/2020/11/19/sport/rugby ... rish-rugby

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 68108.html

At what point does International Competition loose its essence.

I wonder if CJ Stander or James Lowe or any of the other residency qualified players grow up dreaming of wearing Irish Green.

Compare with the passion of Argentina

https://rugbyonslaught.com/theyre-kicki ... ock-upset/

You can tell he grew up dreaming of playing for the Pumas.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ireland 16 New Zealand 9

Ireland: Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Marmion; Healy, Best (capt), Furlong; Toner, James Ryan; O'Mahony, Van der Flier, Stander.

Image
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

it also has to be said when the kiwis lost to Ireland he kiwis played OK. When they lost to Argentina the kiwis played shite
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Zico
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Zico »

I think we're a symbol of what's possible for countries with relatively small playing populations.

Historically the worst team in the 5 Nations until Italy came on board, we've punched well above our weight over the last 20 years. We followed other countries in naturalising players and now those rules have changed. Ideally we'd be self-sufficient in all areas but until then you pick who you can to compete and win games.

Well done Argentina, they came close to beating the ABs before, delighted for them, their success is well deserved. :thumbup:
mdaclarke
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by mdaclarke »

I assume give Eddie Jones' comments that England won't be picking any more players that are only residency qualified?
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Gavin Duffy
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Gavin Duffy »

Lose not loose.
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nardol
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by nardol »

Sure eldaniel is English one day Welsh the next.

Nationality is more fluid than most let on.



Also Jones is japenese Australian coaching England......
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Gavin Duffy
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Gavin Duffy »

And the two vunipolas are starting. Any other English poaches in the squad?
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Jim Lahey
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Jim Lahey »

Remember the good old days when England used to play with Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey in the centres? And Lesley Vainikolo on the wing.

The late 00s were definitely a classic era for English rugby.
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Sandstorm
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Sandstorm »

Surprised Mr Dominator didn’t start this thread.
Last edited by Sandstorm on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sefton
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Sefton »

Jim Lahey wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:29 pm Remember the good old days when England used to play with Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey in the centres? And Lesley Vainikolo on the wing.

The late 00s were definitely a classic era for English rugby.
Every single one of them bursting with pride playing for the motherland and Queen.
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YOYO
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by YOYO »

“At what point does International Competition loose its essence”..you ask mdaclarke.

May I say, it’s being going on for years. Ireland usually pretty clean in this regard. The few poaches are at later stages of career and will be gone from the team soon enough. The provinces are stacked with up and coming Irish born and bred players. The future us bright.

I could deal with 2 or 3 non Irish born and bred Irish in a 23 man squad but not happy at all with 5 or 6.



England Poaches
Mike Catt
Dylan Hartley
Don Armand
Nathan Hughes
Brad Shields
Ben T‘do
Thomas Waldrom
Lesley Vainikolo
Riki Flutey
Henry Paul
Brad Barritt
Willie Heinz
Matt Stevens
Shontayne Hape
Moritz Botha
Hendre Fourie
Jack Clifford
Stuart Abbott
Geoff Appleford
Michael Horak
Mark Van Gisbergen
Semesa Rokoduguni
Michael Rhodes (trained with England 2018)
Perry Freshwater

One or two of the players above might have had an English grand parent / been qualified at birth but probably wouldn’t have being able to identify England on a map before playing in / for England. Shields & T’eo.

Questionable
Billy Vinipola
Marko Vinipola

Not English born but moved to England before adulthood. Some English qualified by birth. Not poaches.

Joe Cokanasiga
Manu Tuilagi
Marlan Yarde
Kyran Bracken
Marcus Smith
Paul Hill
Simon Shaw
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DOB
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by DOB »

YOYO wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:11 pm Poaches

Ben T‘do
They even poached him via us.
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YOYO
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by YOYO »

DOB wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:26 pm
YOYO wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:11 pm Poaches

Ben T‘do
They even poached him via us.
I’m glad they did!
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UncleFB
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by UncleFB »

[quote="YOYO " post_id=6739901 time=1605910272 user_id=12885]
“At what point does International Competition loose its essence”..you ask mdaclarke.

May I say, it’s being going on for years. Ireland usually pretty clean in this regard. The few poaches are at later stages of career and will be gone from the team soon enough. The provinces are stacked with up and coming Irish born and bred players. The future us bright.

I could deal with 2 or 3 non Irish born and bred Irish in a 23 man squad but not happy at all with 5 or 6.



[b][u]England Poaches[/u][/b]
Mike Catt
Dylan Hartley
Don Armand
Nathan Hughes
Brad Shields
Ben T‘do
Thomas Waldrom
Lesley Vainikolo
Riki Flutey
Henry Paul
Brad Barritt
Willie Heinz
Matt Stevens
Shontayne Hape
Moritz Botha
Hendre Fourie
Jack Clifford
Stuart Abbott
Geoff Appleford
Michael Horak
Mark Van Gisbergen
Semesa Rokoduguni
Michael Rhodes (trained with England 2018)
Perry Freshwater

One or two of the players above might have had an English grand parent / been qualified at birth but probably wouldn’t have being able to identify England on a map before playing in / for England. Shields & T’eo.

[b][u]Questionable[/u][/b]
Billy Vinipola
Marko Vinipola

[b][u]Not English born but[/u][/b] moved to England before adulthood. Some English qualified by birth. Not poaches.

Joe Cokanasiga
[b]Manu Tuilagi[/b]
Marlan Yarde
Kyran Bracken
Marcus Smith
Paul Hill
Simon Shaw
[/quote]
Manu should be in the poach column, he was an illegal overstayer in England (not living with his parents, Naholo's uncle doesn't count so neither should Manu's brothers), he didn't do the usual stand down period, and the UK had to fast track him citizenship so he didn't get booted "home" to Samoa.

The Manu Tuilagi saga shows just how much the Home Unions will twist the laws to suit themselves.

I feel ashamed for rugby, ASHAMED I tell you, ashamed. That is all.
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Zico
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Zico »

UncleFB wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:56 pm Manu should be in the poach column, he was an illegal overstayer in England (not living with his parents, Naholo's uncle doesn't count so neither should Manu's brothers), he didn't do the usual stand down period, and the UK had to fast track him citizenship so he didn't get booted "home" to Samoa.

The Manu Tuilagi saga shows just how much the Home Unions will twist the laws to suit themselves.

I feel ashamed for rugby, ASHAMED I tell you, ashamed. That is all.
That's harsh. He had to live in England for years and the way thy do things, like with the Windrush, they might send him home when he's an old man to appease a few racists in their parliament. :uhoh:
Trostan
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Trostan »

mdaclarke wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:06 pm https://extra.ie/2020/11/19/sport/rugby ... rish-rugby

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 68108.html

At what point does International Competition loose its essence.

I wonder if CJ Stander or James Lowe or any of the other residency qualified players grow up dreaming of wearing Irish Green.

Compare with the passion of Argentina

https://rugbyonslaught.com/theyre-kicki ... ock-upset/

You can tell he grew up dreaming of playing for the Pumas.
Unlike England -
15 Mike Catt/ Dylan Armitrage
14 Cokanisaga
13 Manu Tuilagi
12 Ben Teo
11 Marlan Yarde
10 Marcus Smith
9 Kyran Bracken
1 Manu
2 Dylan Hartley
3 Paul Hill
4 Simon Shaw
5 Don Armand
6 Nathan Hughes
7 Brad Shields
8 Billy V.
I could do the "finishers" too, but can't be bothered
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Leinsterman
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Leinsterman »

Loving all the threads started in our honour the last few days. 8)
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Trostan »

Hopefully that puts an end to the bs hypocrisy
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Mr. Very Popular
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

The worst poach ever was Ricky Flutey, cünts poached him, he managed to get a Lion's place and then fecked off.

But then, we have Henry Paul, my god he was shït, the day he shāt himself in Thomond park will live long in my memory, that was a great day
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Zakar »

The 5 year rule, coming into place next year will largely put this issue to bed.
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YOYO
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by YOYO »

Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:28 am The worst poach ever was Ricky Flutey, cünts poached him, he managed to get a Lion's place and then fecked off.

But then, we have Henry Paul, my god he was shït, the day he shāt himself in Thomond park will live long in my memory, that was a great day
Henry Paul was probably a better rugby league player. Probably converted to union a bit late .
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Leinsterman
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Leinsterman »

Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:28 am The worst poach ever was Ricky Flutey, cünts poached him, he managed to get a Lion's place and then fecked off.

But then, we have Henry Paul, my god he was shït, the day he shāt himself in Thomond park will live long in my memory, that was a great day
True, but Chabal getting slapped around in 2006 was much funnier
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True Blue
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by True Blue »

Meh, you have to look at the demographics etc of the country. With the greatest of respect to Argentina (who I think is an amazing country) you probably aren't getting many people moving there for more pay or work. At least not from other rugby playing countries. That's just the reality of the global economy pre-covid.
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Leinsterman
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Leinsterman »

True Blue wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:09 am Meh, you have to look at the demographics etc of the country. With the greatest of respect to Argentina (who I think is an amazing country) you probably aren't getting many people moving there for more pay or work. At least not from other rugby playing countries. That's just the reality of the global economy pre-covid.
2/10
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diarm
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by diarm »

YOYO wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:44 am
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:28 am The worst poach ever was Ricky Flutey, cünts poached him, he managed to get a Lion's place and then fecked off.

But then, we have Henry Paul, my god he was shït, the day he shāt himself in Thomond park will live long in my memory, that was a great day
Henry Paul was probably a better rugby league player. Probably converted to union a bit late .
I could live for another 100 years, and I doubt I'll witness another man shit the bed to the same extent that poor lad did that day. By halftime I just wanted to put my arm around him and bring him for a pint.
Leinsterman wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:52 am True, but Chabal getting slapped around in 2006 was much funnier
This one was more satisfying and less pitiful. I'd happily still be roaring the lads on while they shoved his head back through his arse until today.
sunnybanana
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by sunnybanana »

Trostan wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:12 am
mdaclarke wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:06 pm https://extra.ie/2020/11/19/sport/rugby ... rish-rugby

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ ... 68108.html

At what point does International Competition loose its essence.

I wonder if CJ Stander or James Lowe or any of the other residency qualified players grow up dreaming of wearing Irish Green.

Compare with the passion of Argentina

https://rugbyonslaught.com/theyre-kicki ... ock-upset/

You can tell he grew up dreaming of playing for the Pumas.
Unlike England -
15 Mike Catt/ Dylan Armitrage
14 Cokanisaga
13 Manu Tuilagi
12 Ben Teo
11 Marlan Yarde
10 Marcus Smith
9 Kyran Bracken
1 Manu
2 Dylan Hartley
3 Paul Hill
4 Simon Shaw
5 Don Armand
6 Nathan Hughes
7 Brad Shields
8 Billy V.
I could do the "finishers" too, but can't be bothered
You’ve done a pretty terrible job of putting a starting team together given the options.
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Zico
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Zico »

Zakar wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:34 am The 5 year rule, coming into place next year will largely put this issue to bed.
Yep and hopefully stop bored jornos having a go at people who've made huge sacrifices to play in other countries. Like a lot of average people do in average jobs in other countries.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Jim Lahey wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:29 pm Remember the good old days when England used to play with Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey in the centres? And Lesley Vainikolo on the wing.

The late 00s were definitely a classic era for English rugby.
Not one of those three came to England to play rugby for England. Two of them didn't even come to England to play rugby union and were here for over 5 years before they started playing the game.
England will select anyone who is playing in the premiership and is qualified and good enough. I've never had a problem with that and never will. What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
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Zico
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Zico »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Ali's Choice »

Zico wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
Or Brad Shields? Wasn't he given an English test jersey before he'd ever stepped foot on English soil?
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Zico wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
Sam Burgess was born qualified to play for England
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 am
Zico wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
Or Brad Shields? Wasn't he given an English test jersey before he'd ever stepped foot on English soil?
Brad Shields was born qualified to play for England but even then I would rather the RFU didn't go down that route but this was never an RFU policy as was the case with Scotland and Ireland. There are plenty of rugby players abroad who are qualified to play for England.
Last edited by Anonymous 1 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Ali's Choice »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:25 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 am
Zico wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
Or Brad Shields? Wasn't he given an English test jersey before he'd ever stepped foot on English soil?
Brad Shields was born qualified to play for England
Yep, just as I was born qualified to play for Scotlansd. Farce rules that exist solely to benefit the Home Nations.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:34 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:25 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 am
Zico wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
Or Brad Shields? Wasn't he given an English test jersey before he'd ever stepped foot on English soil?
Brad Shields was born qualified to play for England
Yep, just as I was born qualified to play for Scotlansd. Farce rules that exist solely to benefit the Home Nations.
I thought you pacific Islanders were the ones who benefitted most from those rules. Also they tend to exist in most sports not just rugby.
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Ali's Choice
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

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Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 am I thought you pacific Islanders were the ones who benefitted most from those rules. Also they tend to exist in most sports not just rugby.
Three year residency and grandparent rules exist in "most sports"? You were once a better troll than this.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:42 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 am I thought you pacific Islanders were the ones who benefitted most from those rules. Also they tend to exist in most sports not just rugby.
Three year residency and grandparent rules exist in "most sports"? You were once a better troll than this.
I was talking ancestry rules in general. As you know they tend to change. It wasn't always three year residency and it's no longer three year residency.
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Zico
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Zico »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:45 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:42 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:38 am I thought you pacific Islanders were the ones who benefitted most from those rules. Also they tend to exist in most sports not just rugby.
Three year residency and grandparent rules exist in "most sports"? You were once a better troll than this.
I was talking ancestry rules in general. As you know they tend to change. It wasn't always three year residency and it's no longer three year residency.
English exceptionalism again. :roll:

;)
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Duff Paddy
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Duff Paddy »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am
Jim Lahey wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:29 pm Remember the good old days when England used to play with Shontayne Hape and Riki Flutey in the centres? And Lesley Vainikolo on the wing.

The late 00s were definitely a classic era for English rugby.
Not one of those three came to England to play rugby for England. Two of them didn't even come to England to play rugby union and were here for over 5 years before they started playing the game.
England will select anyone who is playing in the premiership and is qualified and good enough. I've never had a problem with that and never will. What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
What f**king difference does it make? The end result was the same. Our union just has to be more proactive to compete as we have a much smaller pool of players to choose from. No country exists in isolation. Christ your post was just so naive.
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Duff Paddy
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Re: Are Ireland a symbol of all that's wrong with International Rugby

Post by Duff Paddy »

Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:34 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:25 am
Ali's Choice wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:13 am
Zico wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:08 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am What I don't want is the RFU doing what the IRFU are doing and actively seeking players abroad to qualify them to play for England.
Like Sam Burgess?
Or Brad Shields? Wasn't he given an English test jersey before he'd ever stepped foot on English soil?
Brad Shields was born qualified to play for England
Yep, just as I was born qualified to play for Scotlansd. Farce rules that exist solely to benefit the Home Nations.
Japan?
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