Has rugby turned boring?

[Derwyn]

Some concerns being voiced by Jiffy and others within Welsh rugby circles about the modern game.

Jonathan Davies

Worried about the game. It’s boring. No quick ball, scrums killing the game, defence on top.

Welsh rugby broadcaster Phil Steele

In these worrying times for all sports, the game is doing itself no favours in either shoring up its core support, or attracting new fans

Former Wales international Lee Jarvis

Definitely need to lose a few subs.

Need to understand union is in the entertainment business and attack should be favoured over defence because at the end of the day that what the supporters want

[message #2527204]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

[EverReady]

I agree that England are a horrible team and dare I say it country Derwyn but what can we do about it

[HighKingLeinster]

I agree that England are a horrible team and dare I say it country Derwyn but what can we do about it

We need to invest more of the welsh tv monies. That pot of gold can fix anything

[Keith]

TL;DR version: The Celts are losing

[Derwyn]

I agree that England are a horrible team and dare I say it country Derwyn but what can we do about it

We need to invest more of the welsh tv monies. That pot of gold can fix anything

You shook our piggy bank and bled it dry whilst the Irish TV purse collected cobwebs.

[ChipSpike]

yes, the rules are against running rugby now.

[iarmhiman]

Go 13 a side?

[mr bungle]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

Better offences expose defences, which you lot have never really had. Hence your supposed better defence.

[Derwyn]

Creativity has certainly dwindled away these last 15 years.

It has got to a point where teams just bish bash and bosh their way into each other looking to scrape by on penalties. Attack is just seen as too risky when defences are so on top that penalties are gifted out like penny sweets.

[MrDominator]

Were the Welsh all asleep during the Warrenball decade?

[Wendigo7]

I'm not sure about creativity but fitness is effecting alot of things now.

1. Players are fitter, realign in defence way quicker and those spaces for broken field attacks aren't there now.

2. Players have higher IQ. I mean mainly in positioning but also around the rules. Players are very clever around the breakdown now and their positioning in defence means those mistakes - a. through fitness don't happen, b. through rugby intelligence and positional awareness don't happen.

3. Size now matters.

All of these things are particularly hurting the all blacks though. Through most periods they'd have players who had an ability to consistently punch through or beat a defender and create go forward and space. Now that's not happening and teams are good at getting into realignment quickly, all that emphasis on attacking flair is struggling against well drilled defence.

I thick it's only further more putting an onus on having a good kicking game and multiple options to kick from. It's also put an onus on selecting when to attack and how to attack.

Unfortunately, it's not easy now to trade off size used well either. Big lumps going round the field unfit but could punch a hole is one thing. But if they tackle just as well, dance and move just as well and have as much pace as a good small player, then the big player will win inevitably.

Not really sure how you change the rules though. Just let the game evolve over time naturally.

[mdaclarke]

No, Rugby is as good as ever.

Playing in empty stadiums removes the spectacle and sense of occasion. All sports are suffering not just Rugby

[lilyw]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

[message #2527204]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

No it isn't. The difference it's the backs can catch a ball more than twice without dropping it nowadays.
Average scrum is 30 seconds.

[LandOTurk]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

No it isn't. The difference it's the backs can catch a ball more than twice without dropping it nowadays.
Average scrum is 30 seconds.

There is no way on this planet an avg scrum is 30s. It must include those scrums that fold in immediately and a penalty awarded, thereby lowering the avg. Its min 60s.

[eldanielfire]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

I don't get this. I love scrums. The anticipation, the build-up, the attempt to shove the other team and then the play off it.

[Theflier]

I posted this elsewhere, why don't we just make the pitches wider? The pitch size is based on 15 ordinarily sized men of ordinary fitness.
And also finally ref sealing off in the opposition 22 and 5m line

[johnstrac]

They could always referee the offside line....

[Jerome Manning]

Reduce the amount of subs and make the big fellas run.

8 subs is absolutely farcical.

[Jerome Manning]

I posted this elsewhere, why don't we just make the pitches wider? The pitch size is based on 15 ordinarily sized men of ordinary fitness.
And also finally ref sealing off in the opposition 22 and 5m line

There would be plenty of stadiums around the world that couldn't take the increased width.

[mdaclarke]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

I don't get this. I love scrums. The anticipation, the build-up, the attempt to shove the other team and then the play off it.

I love scrums too. Don't get all the hate for them.

[shereblue]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

I don't get this. I love scrums. The anticipation, the build-up, the attempt to shove the other team and then the play off it.

Absolutely.

Contested by nasty, sneaky and powerful competitors putting their collective egos on the line and fighting to lift the whole team...with a little skill they can also open up, or thwart, attacking opportunities.

[Thomas]

Were the Welsh all asleep during the Warrenball decade?

MrD has a point.

At what point did Welsh pundits become concerned about entertainment?

[Sandstorm]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

You forgot lineouts. And penalties. And conversions. Backs actually move around only 13 minutes in every 80. The rest of the time they stand and wait. It’s been the same since 80s BTW.

[Whatever]

Some concerns being voiced by Jiffy and others within Welsh rugby circles about the modern game.

...

Well maybe oop north.

But Super Rugby (except the Aussie derbies), Rugby Aotearoa, Mitre 10 and the Tri-Nations have all been pretty darn good.

[MrDominator]

Were the Welsh all asleep during the Warrenball decade?

MrD has a point.

At what point did Welsh pundits become concerned about entertainment?

At the point they stated losing.

Badly.

Every week.

[Thomas]

Some concerns being voiced by Jiffy and others within Welsh rugby circles about the modern game.

...

Well maybe oop north.

But Super Rugby (except the Aussie derbies), Rugby Aotearoa, Mitre 10 and the Tri-Nations have all been pretty darn good.

Did you watch any Super Rugby Australia this year, champ?

[Whatever]

Some concerns being voiced by Jiffy and others within Welsh rugby circles about the modern game.

...

Well maybe oop north.

But Super Rugby (except the Aussie derbies), Rugby Aotearoa, Mitre 10 and the Tri-Nations have all been pretty darn good.

Did you watch any Super Rugby Australia this year, champ?

I actually watched every match. TBF they weren't too bad, although the Force weren't much chop and dragged the standard down. Still as far as SR goes, for me it's always been NZ v SA best, NZ derbies next ... SA derbies 2nd worst (low on skill, but high on anger), Aus derbies worst.

It bums me that next year there won't be any of my favourite matchups, but more of the worst.

Just one man's view, no need to start swinging.

[Theflier]

I posted this elsewhere, why don't we just make the pitches wider? The pitch size is based on 15 ordinarily sized men of ordinary fitness.
And also finally ref sealing off in the opposition 22 and 5m line

There would be plenty of stadiums around the world that couldn't take the increased width.

Even the smallest tier one international rugby stadiums have at least 15-20ft between the touch line and front row on both sides, an extra 10-15ft in width would really solve any problem we have with the current stodge levels, whereas every other idea is fruitless.

[af73]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.

You forgot lineouts. And penalties. And conversions. Backs actually move around only 13 minutes in every 80. The rest of the time they stand and wait. It’s been the same since 80s BTW.

Taken in combination that's lethal to ball in play time
Scrum reset...reset...penalty. On comes the kicking tee and inevitable water bottle. We then wait for the pre-kick routine that takes the full allotted 60 seconds....or 75 if your name ends with Farrell/Sexton/Biggar. Even for the ones dead in front of the posts often times!

Penalties for scrum infringements are fine if that's what they are...infringements. There is nothing in the laws about "rewarding" a dominant scrum. Why should a team be penalised for simply being less strong. If they stay quare and upright, going backwards isn't a penalty offence. The "dominant" team should be told to use the ball.

[Muttonbirds]

Astute observation as always, Derwyn.

Bring back rucking. That will liven things up.

[fonzeee]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

It's gotta be more than that. And I'm not even counting all the resets.

[Flyin Ryan]

So Warren Gatland coached Wales a very long time, left the position, and now the Welsh punditry say the game has gotten boring?

[Whatever]

So Warren Gatland coached Wales a very long time, left the position, and now the Welsh punditry say the game has gotten boring?

Most of the NH rugby I've watch this year has been more turgid than usual. England are strong but Eddie Jones doesn't do exciting teams.

But the one breath of fresh air is France with the young talent they have in the backline. They're worth watching.

[Anonymous 1]

Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)

Better offences expose defences, which you lot have never really had. Hence your supposed better defence.

Last year statistically New Zealand had a better defence than England and England had a better attack than New Zealand.
Saw and interview with Eddie Jones yesterday and he made the point that the length of matches has gone up from around 90 minutes to 110 minutes yet the time the ball is in play has stayed the same. The extra time is taken up by TMO decisions, refs talking and players managing fatigue by delaying the game with a need for a front rower to tie their laces or get medical attention before the go to a set piece.
Every team does it but against England at the weekend ireland were at it from the start of the match.

[GotheCanes]

I posted this elsewhere, why don't we just make the pitches wider? The pitch size is based on 15 ordinarily sized men of ordinary fitness.
And also finally ref sealing off in the opposition 22 and 5m line

There would be plenty of stadiums around the world that couldn't take the increased width.

Play the width of the field. Leave the posts where they are and conversions are kicked from where you touched it down.

[SFBB]

Only two teams in Test rugby are currently at the peak of their squads ability - SA and England, and of those two only England are currently brave enough to play, but have no desire to provide entertainment.

Everybody else is at some stage of falling down and getting back up, which means you get games of very questionable standard for what was reliable Test match rugby.

FWIW, I love scrums, and I think the only way to make rugby better is to focus on reffing them as brutally as possible. No more fast guys who can barely hold their side of the scrum up, and rely on cheating to get away with inability. We've accepted the "dark arts" as part of rugby for too long. If you cheat to survive against a better scrummager, and then get advantage around the field, you should be banned from scrummaging in X amount of subsequent games. I don't care if teams have to pick 160kg fatplums out of suburban 2nd grade to hold up his side of the scrum legally.

[shanky]

Where’s this fecking manifesto we were promosed anyway?

Good powerpoint.

[eldanielfire]

Were the Welsh all asleep during the Warrenball decade?

MrD has a point.

At what point did Welsh pundits become concerned about entertainment?

To be fair, Welsh pundits have complained about Gatland not unleashing natural Welsh flair for years on 'Scrum V'. Including Jiffy.