Has rugby turned boring?

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C69
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by C69 »

SFBB wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:21 am Only two teams in Test rugby are currently at the peak of their squads ability - SA and England, and of those two only England are currently brave enough to play, but have no desire to provide entertainment.

Everybody else is at some stage of falling down and getting back up, which means you get games of very questionable standard for what was reliable Test match rugby.

FWIW, I love scrums, and I think the only way to make rugby better is to focus on reffing them as brutally as possible. No more fast guys who can barely hold their side of the scrum up, and rely on cheating to get away with inability. We've accepted the "dark arts" as part of rugby for too long. If you cheat to survive against a better scrummager, and then get advantage around the field, you should be banned from scrummaging in X amount of subsequent games. I don't care if teams have to pick 160kg fatplums out of suburban 2nd grade to hold up his side of the scrum legally.
Surely Argentina must be having their best results ever?
They must be at the peak of their ability?
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by SFBB »

C69 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:27 am
SFBB wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:21 am Only two teams in Test rugby are currently at the peak of their squads ability - SA and England, and of those two only England are currently brave enough to play, but have no desire to provide entertainment.

Everybody else is at some stage of falling down and getting back up, which means you get games of very questionable standard for what was reliable Test match rugby.

FWIW, I love scrums, and I think the only way to make rugby better is to focus on reffing them as brutally as possible. No more fast guys who can barely hold their side of the scrum up, and rely on cheating to get away with inability. We've accepted the "dark arts" as part of rugby for too long. If you cheat to survive against a better scrummager, and then get advantage around the field, you should be banned from scrummaging in X amount of subsequent games. I don't care if teams have to pick 160kg fatplums out of suburban 2nd grade to hold up his side of the scrum legally.
Surely Argentina must be having their best results ever?
They must be at the peak of their ability?
Short term results can be misleading. They've lost some senior players and are in a minor rebuilding phase. It's just worked well quickly.
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Mullet 2
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Mullet 2 »

I watched the SA NZ final from 1995 the other night on rugby gold.

You will all remember it was by no means a vintage game but the flow to the match was infinitely better.
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Mullet 2
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Mullet 2 »

As were the jerseys
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DragsterDriver
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by DragsterDriver »

Yes.
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nardol
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by nardol »

No.


It always was predominantly boring.
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mr bungle
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by mr bungle »

Mullet 2 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:17 am I watched the SA NZ final from 1995 the other night on rugby gold.

You will all remember it was by no means a vintage game but the flow to the match was infinitely better.
I remember the mid - late 90s as being well flowing and fans could easily understand the ruck and maul laws.
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mr bungle
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by mr bungle »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:57 am
mr bungle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:38 pm Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)
Better offences expose defences, which you lot have never really had. Hence your supposed better defence.
Last year statistically New Zealand had a better defence than England and England had a better attack than New Zealand.
It’s never always one way traffic, but mostly so in NZ’s case. While England utterly smashed us, over the course of the 2019 season they played 25% more tests and faced a largely weaker pool of teams. I’d be surprised if they didn’t have a strong attack.
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Mullet 2
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Mullet 2 »

mr bungle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:49 am
Mullet 2 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:17 am I watched the SA NZ final from 1995 the other night on rugby gold.

You will all remember it was by no means a vintage game but the flow to the match was infinitely better.
I remember the mid - late 90s as being well flowing and fans could easily understand the ruck and maul laws.
The IRB forgot one of the golden rules of rugby. It doesnt have to make sense. Theyhave been trying and failing to put structure on chaos since.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Anonymous 1 »

mr bungle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:58 am
Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:57 am
mr bungle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:09 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:38 pm Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)
Better offences expose defences, which you lot have never really had. Hence your supposed better defence.
Last year statistically New Zealand had a better defence than England and England had a better attack than New Zealand.
It’s never always one way traffic, but mostly so in NZ’s case. While England utterly smashed us, over the course of the 2019 season they played 25% more tests and faced a largely weaker pool of teams. I’d be surprised if they didn’t have a strong attack.
England were playing against the likes of Wales and Ireland who were the top ranked sides IN WORLD RUGBY.
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Anonymous 1 »

mr bungle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:49 am
Mullet 2 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:17 am I watched the SA NZ final from 1995 the other night on rugby gold.

You will all remember it was by no means a vintage game but the flow to the match was infinitely better.
I remember the mid - late 90s as being well flowing and fans could easily understand the ruck and maul laws.
Elf and safety
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message #2527204
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by message #2527204 »

nardol wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:35 am No.


It always was predominantly boring.
That depends on your definition of 'boring'. It was always a game for players rather than spectators.
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message #2527204
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by message #2527204 »

Anonymous 1 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:16 am
mr bungle wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:49 am
Mullet 2 wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:17 am I watched the SA NZ final from 1995 the other night on rugby gold.

You will all remember it was by no means a vintage game but the flow to the match was infinitely better.
I remember the mid - late 90s as being well flowing and fans could easily understand the ruck and maul laws.
Elf and safety
As far as the scrum is concerned, they've made it less safe by not enforcing the laws. "You have to take the 'hit'" - where did this law come from, and why do refs insist on it? The 'hit' was always a choice for the front rows, not a law. You can't push before the ball comes in. straight.
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Average Joe
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Average Joe »

Scrums, mauls, kicking and lineouts are all part of rugby. If you find it boring watch a different sport like tennis or basketball.
Cabbage
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Cabbage »

If players were fitter there would be no scrums. They are rest periods because players can't run for 80 minutes. Just follow the NFL and bring in time outs.
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message #2527204
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by message #2527204 »

Cabbage wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:35 pm If players were fitter there would be no scrums. They are rest periods because players can't run for 80 minutes. Just follow the NFL and bring in time outs.
Does it mean NFL players can run for 80 minutes
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Whatever
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Whatever »

On the PR front page, Eddie Jones admits his English team is boring. Speak for yourself, Eddie, but don't speak for the SH or France. Perhaps if your teams played with a bit more ambition and had some flair: https://www.planetrugby.com/rugby-only- ... cup-final/
‘Rugby only excites purists currently’ – Eddie Jones

Eddie Jones is confident rugby will emerge from a dull period dominated by defence after conceding it is currently a sport that excites only purists.

Jones is preparing his England team for Sunday’s Autumn Nations Cup final against France at Twickenham after presiding over business-like wins against Georgia, Ireland and Wales that produced few thrills.

Disillusionment has grown over the lack of ambition that has swept through the game since a successful 2019 World Cup, with defence, set-piece and kicking dominating matches at the expense of entertainment.

“Just looking at rugby at the moment, it’s certainly a tough, physical game. A real game for the purists at the moment.

“It reminds me of the 2007 World Cup where defences were pretty dominant and kicking was one of the major ways to get ahead in the game.

“We go through these periods in the game. The next cycle is always an attacking one, so let’s enjoy the defensive cycle we have at the moment and look forward to the attacking cycle when it comes.

“When that happens is always dependent on the laws – when we get quick ball we’re able to play with some space and some time.

“You just look at every side in the world now, they’re so much better organised in defence.

“Everyone’s getting off the line hard and time and space are at a premium. Unless we are able to get quick ball it’s very difficult to play with any fluency.”

The Autumn Nations Cup final has been devalued by an agreement between France and the Top 14 clubs over player access that means head coach Fabien Galthie is missing 25 front-line internationals.

The entire starting XV that sent England spinning to a 24-17 defeat in February is unavailable, including the likes of Antoine Dupont, Virimi Vakatawa and Gregory Alldritt.

It turns the final into a hollow occasion, but for Jones it is another opportunity to distance his recently crowned Six Nations champions from last autumn’s World Cup final defeat by South Africa.

“We’re looking forward to the game, we’re so excited about it. We’ve worked hard for nine weeks to get to this position,” Jones said.

“We can’t control what the opposition puts out there, we’re not even worrying about it. You know whatever side France puts out is going to be competitive.

“They’re going to be tough, they’ve won the last two Under-20 World Cups so they have plenty of good players. We’re not concerned about this one iota – it’s out of our control.

“All we can do is play to our best. We’re worried about our performance and how we can improve that.

“In a championship, the final week is always the greatest learning week. You learn a lot about yourselves, about your team-mates, about how you operate as a team.

“We’ve had one unsuccessful final in the last 13 months, so we’ve learned from that and we’d like to put our learnings into practise this week.

“I’d like to congratulate the organisers of the tournament. They’ve done a fantastic job to put it on in such difficult circumstances.

“It’s quite a feat and it’s been good, competitive rugby. We’re pleased to be in the final but there’s one game to go.”

Even former England captain Dylan Hartley admitted the emphasis on shutting down opponents had been “boring” and there is a perceptible frustration amongst players of all nations that it has become more profitable to play without the ball.

Jones refuses to promise fireworks when 2020 concludes with a rematch of his side’s solitary defeat this year, but insists attacks will ignite once again when the current cycle ends.

“We’d like to dominate France and how we do that will depend on what sort of game it is. We can’t control that,” he said.
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RodneyRegis
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by RodneyRegis »

eldanielfire wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:29 pm
lilyw wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:01 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:38 pm Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)
10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.
I don't get this. I love scrums. The anticipation, the build-up, the attempt to shove the other team and then the play off it.
Then the reset. Then the next reset. Then the guesswork penalty. Then the kick to the corner. Then the undefendable maul. 7 points because of a 'knock-on' on halfway which actually went backwards.
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fonzeee
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by fonzeee »

All I can say is it's better (or at the very least more entertaining) than when I started watching circa 2007. Though granted that had to be one of the duller periods in the game's history.
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Floppykid
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Floppykid »

It's not a patch on late 90s to early 00s. A lot of the late 90s bled tests are so much better than test rugby these days.

Flair, skill and talent have been throttled out of the game a good bit.
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MrDominator
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by MrDominator »

There's nothing boring about watching beefy Saxon yeomen squash troll-like Celts into the mud, my friends.

Nothing boring whatsoever.

:thumbup:
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Newsome
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Newsome »

Scrums from knockons is the shittest rule in the sport.

Just give it to the opposite team and tap and go.

Fuc k sake, how hard is that?
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jambanja
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by jambanja »

Newsome wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:12 am Scrums from knockons is the shittest rule in the sport.

Just give it to the opposite team and tap and go.

Fuc k sake, how hard is that?
This might be more suited to you
https://www.rugbyleagueplanet.com/
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LandOTurk
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by LandOTurk »

RodneyRegis wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:47 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:29 pm
lilyw wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:01 pm
message #2527204 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:38 pm Jiffy's talking bollocks. There's only about 10 scrums a match nowadays. England manage quick ball, as do other teams that aren't Wales.
Defence has always been on top except in the basketball rugby of the super-whatever - which was shit (but they could look at moving the offside line 5m back from rucks)
10 scrums per match, 90 seconds per scrum - 15 minutes where 12 of the players are just standing around trying to keep warm, 2 are chipping at the ref, and 16 are competing in the heavyweight division of the world Irish dancing championships (Walls of Limerick section). It's incredibly tedious.
I don't get this. I love scrums. The anticipation, the build-up, the attempt to shove the other team and then the play off it.
Then the reset. Then the next reset. Then the guesswork penalty. Then the kick to the corner. Then the undefendable maul. 7 points because of a 'knock-on' on halfway which actually went backwards.
Yep. If they worked like they used to or are supposed to. An evenly balanced contest where the hookers cant raise a leg for fear of going backwards is one, if not the best scene in rugby. And I'm a back. Its just the are few and far between.
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LandOTurk
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by LandOTurk »

I wonder if for pro or international rugby only, you could have the forwards or at least the front row wear some broad electronic strips across their shoulders and down their back that indicate if a player is square and driving straight. The TMO is trained well and able to read the visuals from the transmitted technology. Too much?
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Enzedder »

30 second time limit for a scrum to be formed. Penalty to the non-offending team if it isn't ready to pack in time.

We just got 10 minutes of rugby back
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Anonymous 1
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Anonymous 1 »

Derwyn wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:32 pm Are Wales shit at the moment
Yes
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True Blue
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by True Blue »

Seems to be like the NBA and even NFL. The actual real enjoyable stuff is a tier or two down where the defenses aren't quite as robust. The semi-pro Mitre 10 Cup is great fun to watch for example. More line breaks.
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LandOTurk
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by LandOTurk »

Enzedder wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:22 am 30 second time limit for a scrum to be formed. Penalty to the non-offending team if it isn't ready to pack in time.

We just got 10 minutes of rugby back
If you make it 20 seconds, we've got 15 minutes of rugby back. Just sayin'.
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Newsome
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Newsome »

jambanja wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:38 am
Newsome wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:12 am Scrums from knockons is the shittest rule in the sport.

Just give it to the opposite team and tap and go.

Fuc k sake, how hard is that?
This might be more suited to you
https://www.rugbyleagueplanet.com/
I know. Imagine reducing the number of time consuming scrums because of dropped balls in a winter sport often played in the rain, and instead giving players less time to take a break; therefore, creating a faster paced and more attacking orientated game with a more natural flow and where gym monkeys smashing each other becomes less of a thing.

So glad we see eye to eye.
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Nieghorn
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Nieghorn »

Eddie's statement from that PR article...
“We go through these periods in the game. The next cycle is always an attacking one, so let’s enjoy the defensive cycle we have at the moment and look forward to the attacking cycle when it comes."
What's going to magically create this 'attacking cycle', apart from law changes?

Today's players have always been pro, coached by pro coaches since their 'academy' years. An increasing number of coaches were pros so understand the demands of the game.

But there's a lot of copy-catting going on. Forward-dominated play across the middle*, backs using the outer third or chasing / returning kicks.

* it annoys me to no end to hear amateur coaches at my level talk 1331 or 242 systems... the defence here is nothing like it is in the pros. Just play rugby, ffs! There's space and gaps and mismatches on every play. Look for it / create it!


As mentioned by someone else above, I also found Mitre 10 the best rugby to watch this year. I'd love to see more video from this tier around the world. I don't care if someone misses a tackle or horribly gets the next phase wrong. That kind of variety keeps the game interesting for me.
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Woddy
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Woddy »

Purely re making scrums quicker and less likely to collapse, what say you all to making a rule that the front rows engage first, then second row, then back row, then ball is fed in straight?

Lack of hit and greater stability should get rid of resets while retaining a technical pushing contest.
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by DragsterDriver »

Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:04 pm Purely re making scrums quicker and less likely to collapse, what say you all to making a rule that the front rows engage first, then second row, then back row, then ball is fed in straight?

Lack of hit and greater stability should get rid of resets while retaining a technical pushing contest.
All you need is packs that want to scrummage.
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Woddy
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Woddy »

DragsterDriver wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:35 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:04 pm Purely re making scrums quicker and less likely to collapse, what say you all to making a rule that the front rows engage first, then second row, then back row, then ball is fed in straight?

Lack of hit and greater stability should get rid of resets while retaining a technical pushing contest.
All you need is packs that want to scrummage.
Should make it harder not to scrummage without it being obvious to the ref (and so get penalised for it).
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by A5D5E5 »

Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:35 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:04 pm Purely re making scrums quicker and less likely to collapse, what say you all to making a rule that the front rows engage first, then second row, then back row, then ball is fed in straight?

Lack of hit and greater stability should get rid of resets while retaining a technical pushing contest.
All you need is packs that want to scrummage.
Should make it harder not to scrummage without it being obvious to the ref (and so get penalised for it).
Nobody it going to disagree with that, but how?
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Zico
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Zico »

Keep tinkering away at the game to please passive viewers so the people playing it are spending more time on interpretations of new laws than creative play that rugby fans already invested in the sport want. :roll:
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Woddy
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Woddy »

A5D5E5 wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:23 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:35 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:04 pm Purely re making scrums quicker and less likely to collapse, what say you all to making a rule that the front rows engage first, then second row, then back row, then ball is fed in straight?

Lack of hit and greater stability should get rid of resets while retaining a technical pushing contest.
All you need is packs that want to scrummage.
Should make it harder not to scrummage without it being obvious to the ref (and so get penalised for it).
Nobody it going to disagree with that, but how?
'cos there would be no hit, and pressure would build gradually as each row binds in so keeps the scrum steady as it forms. Then you just push on put-in.
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Floppykid »

Zico wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:35 pm Keep tinkering away at the game to please passive viewers so the people playing it are spending more time on interpretations of new laws than creative play that rugby fans already invested in the sport want. :roll:
There's a few things that have it f**ked tbh.
Caterpilar rucks, offside defences, collapsed scrums.

Alot of it stems for the ever increasing cynicism and athleticism of pro rugby.
How to fix it beats me.

TMO needs massive curtailing too, should only be consulted for groundings of tries and maybe final passes. Egregious foul play if the ref notices it/wants to take a look.
Heading more and more towards NFL style committee reffing is boring.
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A5D5E5
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by A5D5E5 »

Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:53 pm
A5D5E5 wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:23 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:09 pm
DragsterDriver wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:35 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:04 pm Purely re making scrums quicker and less likely to collapse, what say you all to making a rule that the front rows engage first, then second row, then back row, then ball is fed in straight?

Lack of hit and greater stability should get rid of resets while retaining a technical pushing contest.
All you need is packs that want to scrummage.
Should make it harder not to scrummage without it being obvious to the ref (and so get penalised for it).
Nobody it going to disagree with that, but how?
'cos there would be no hit, and pressure would build gradually as each row binds in so keeps the scrum steady as it forms. Then you just push on put-in.
But significantly weaker scrums would still take the gamble and cheat to give them a (say) 40/60 chance of the penalty going their way compared to a much higher chance of the penalty going against them if they try and compete fairly (but badly).
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Re: Has rugby turned boring?

Post by Floppykid »

Refs should hold a lighter under the chins of props to stop them collapsing during scrums.
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