The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

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Ulsters Red Hand
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Ulsters Red Hand »

I dont see why this move is unpopular. Any more quality teams (and money) is a good thing. Put it this way, i’d be more inclined to go see Kolisi, Du Toit etc play on a cold, wet December evening than the Kings etc
Nolanator
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Nolanator »

Expanding the competition endlessly is shite. Not a fan. But the lack of competition in the league is killing it. The Saffer teams should address that a bit, and generally generate more interest, for a while at least.

I don't know what the solution would be. Personally I'd like to see the Welsh public give a shit and support their teams, meaning they've more money and can compete at a higher level. Keep the league tight and maximum 12 teams with some semblance of identity.
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diarm
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by diarm »

I say bring in all 6 South African sides and invite two more sides from developing European nations. Create two divisions of 10 with promotion and relegation and let the cream rise to the top.

Conferences are crap and there are too many games. We should use this as an opportunity to create a decent format that even the Welsh can't moan about.
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

Fully with you on the conference system. Its shit.

Divisions with promotion and relegation would be better. With the provision that if the welsh and Italians ever get good we do away with relegation.
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Jensrsa
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Jensrsa »

ZuluBoy wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm
DeDoc wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:44 am [quote="diarm
Am I correct in thinking that the Saffa-based players won't have played at all until this competition starts?
Perhaps other Saffers can answer you better but I know the Currie Cup final is the 23 rd of January
That leave Saffer teams with Feb and Mar but seeing the restrictions on flights and quaranteen requirements I foresee some SA teams might go over to Europe before the competition starts
Apparently there will be a SA Cup in February and March, similar to the old Vodacom Cup, but that will probably be mainly the fringe players and youngsters while the first squad will take a break and then begin preseason training
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by LandOTurk »

diarm wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:06 am The Welsh: "We hate the Celtic League. The standard is shit, nobody cares about it and we just want to play with the English".

The English: "We don't want you".

The Irish and Scots: "Ok, let's look to develop the league by inviting the Italians in".

The Welsh: We hate the Pro12. The standard is shit, including the shit Italian sides has devalued the tradition and history of the Celtic League and now nobody cares about it. We just want to play with the English.

The English: "We still don't want you".

The Irish, Scots and Italians: "Ok, let's look to develop the league by inviting some South Africans in".

The Welsh: "We hate the Pro14. The standard is shit, by including the smaller South African sides we've devalued the tournament and now nobody cares about it. We just want to play with the English.

The English: "We still don't want you".

The Irish, Scots, Italians and South Africans: ""Ok, let's look to develop the league by bringing in the top four South African sides and raising the standard of the league beyond question".

The Welsh: "We hate the Pro16. Inviting all these good teams has destroyed the tradition and history of the old tournaments that we also hated. The regions that we also hate and don't support won't have the money to compete with more high quality sides and we just want to play with the English.
So what did the English say?
Nolanator
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Nolanator »

They shared their Covid instead.
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by LandOTurk »

I am not against it, just not sure it will work.

What I would do:

Summer rugby - every game in Llanelli the past 12 months pretty much has been pissing it down. For a team that loves to run the ball, it is not helping at all.

Two leagues, starting with equal split of all nations' teams.
Home and away 14 game season.
Promotion and relegation, 2 up and 2 down for more variety
No playoffs for winner in either Division

The big downside is that we love our derbies in Wales, and it is by far the biggest game to play your nearest rival (Tosspreys in my case). For the league, I dislike playoffs where a runaway leader e.g. Leinster lose in a 1 off game in the final. I jut don't like the unfairness of it, despite the added excitement. So my proposed solution, to ensure league fairness, playoff excitement and ensure we have derbies, is a Regional Cup. Who is King of Wales, Ireland etc

Completely separate from the league, we could have 4 Welsh teams, play each other home and away to find a winner. Same for Irish, Saffers and Ita/Sco. These 4 teams have 1 sf and 1 final. Unsure when to play it but prefer it as 1 block, maybe start the season with it? As I want summer rugby, the Boxing Day clashes go, unless that means the end of the season when these games are played is December - so season is Mar to Dec. That would be 42 weeks to fit in:

14 games in the league - must be playing your full squad in rotation, not your 2nd teams al the time
Between 6 and 8 for the Cup
6 to 9 for Europe
7 weeks for 6 Nations
4 weeks for AIs
No summer tours
35-40 games over all

That's just too long isn't it?

Could Europe be 8 pools of 3 teams, producing 1 winner straight into qfs, which reduces it to 4 to 7 games in Europe and 32-37 games over all.

Also take out the sf and f from the regional cup then, reducing workload by 2 more games, at the sacrifice of no playoffs in any competition except Europe. So 30-35 games over all across 8 months.

Thoughts?
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

What about a domestic competition first.

Top 2 Or 1 for Sco & Ita go to top tier.

Second Bottom tier?



Domestic derby sorted. Competition integrity secured and not the faux levels of shit we currently have.
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by LandOTurk »

nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:34 pm What about a domestic competition first.

Top 2 Or 1 for Sco & Ita go to top tier.

Second Bottom tier?



Domestic derby sorted. Competition integrity secured and not the faux levels of shit we currently have.
It would make for a ferocious set of derbies that's for sure.
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DOB
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by DOB »

diarm wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:06 am The Welsh: "We hate the Celtic League. The standard is shit, nobody cares about it and we just want to play with the English".

The English: "We don't want you".

The Irish and Scots: "Ok, let's look to develop the league by inviting the Italians in".

The Welsh: We hate the Pro12. The standard is shit, including the shit Italian sides has devalued the tradition and history of the Celtic League and now nobody cares about it. We just want to play with the English.

The English: "We still don't want you".

The Irish, Scots and Italians: "Ok, let's look to develop the league by inviting some South Africans in".

The Welsh: "We hate the Pro14. The standard is shit, by including the smaller South African sides we've devalued the tournament and now nobody cares about it. We just want to play with the English.

The English: "We still don't want you".

The Irish, Scots, Italians and South Africans: ""Ok, let's look to develop the league by bringing in the top four South African sides and raising the standard of the league beyond question".

The Welsh: "We hate the Pro16. Inviting all these good teams has destroyed the tradition and history of the old tournaments that we also hated. The regions that we also hate and don't support won't have the money to compete with more high quality sides and we just want to play with the English.
Came over from the IR thread to find this post. Worth the effort. Well done, sir.
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Cartman
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Cartman »

I honestly don't care anymore who wins what competition.
But I do like watching the games and even better when my team wins.
Genuinely interested in seeing how the top SA sides fare against the likes of Leinster.
Sorry for ruining another competition but rugby every weekend is great.
DeDoc
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by DeDoc »

LandOTurk wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:15 pm I am not against it, just not sure it will work.

What I would do:

Summer rugby - every game in Llanelli the past 12 months pretty much has been pissing it down. For a team that loves to run the ball, it is not helping at all.

Two leagues, starting with equal split of all nations' teams.
Home and away 14 game season.
Promotion and relegation, 2 up and 2 down for more variety
No playoffs for winner in either Division

The big downside is that we love our derbies in Wales, and it is by far the biggest game to play your nearest rival (Tosspreys in my case). For the league, I dislike playoffs where a runaway leader e.g. Leinster lose in a 1 off game in the final. I jut don't like the unfairness of it, despite the added excitement. So my proposed solution, to ensure league fairness, playoff excitement and ensure we have derbies, is a Regional Cup. Who is King of Wales, Ireland etc

Completely separate from the league, we could have 4 Welsh teams, play each other home and away to find a winner. Same for Irish, Saffers and Ita/Sco. These 4 teams have 1 sf and 1 final. Unsure when to play it but prefer it as 1 block, maybe start the season with it? As I want summer rugby, the Boxing Day clashes go, unless that means the end of the season when these games are played is December - so season is Mar to Dec. That would be 42 weeks to fit in:

14 games in the league - must be playing your full squad in rotation, not your 2nd teams al the time
Between 6 and 8 for the Cup
6 to 9 for Europe
7 weeks for 6 Nations
4 weeks for AIs
No summer tours
35-40 games over all

That's just too long isn't it?

Could Europe be 8 pools of 3 teams, producing 1 winner straight into qfs, which reduces it to 4 to 7 games in Europe and 32-37 games over all.

Also take out the sf and f from the regional cup then, reducing workload by 2 more games, at the sacrifice of no playoffs in any competition except Europe. So 30-35 games over all across 8 months.

Thoughts?
I think promotion and relegation won't work - the TV (and pretty quickly the fan) interest will only be in the top division
No summer tours isn't going to happen, at least not without more autumn games and some revenue share, and probably even that isn't a runner for the SH teams. With international games paying the way for the rest, that is where the top players are going to be prioritised. With the nature of top level rugby, I think a realistic ceiling on the number of games per player is 20-25. There are probably of the order of 12 internationals a year, so maybe a top player plays 9-10 of those. After that you're into making decisions about where to prioritise.
I can't see the current type of Europe structure (effectively 8 pools of 3) lasting - just isn't the same level of drama or excitement, as one loss probably has you out of contention. Maybe you could go to a straight knockout, with two-legged ties in the first few rounds? Although it would probably be quite fragmented if you wanted to facilitate fan travel - you'd need some break after each leg of games to give time to organise and budget. For my money, 6 groups of 4 playing home and away going to QFs is the optimum structure, but that means 6-9 games for every team. I think you have to have Europe as higher priority than domestic, or the competition dies, so now you're looking at top players only having a handful of games in the domestic league. So you either have to pare down the number of games to some really big ones, or accept that it will be a league (as currently) where top players are absent more than they are playing. Personally I like that structure, seeing the next generation coming through - albeit easy for me to say that as a Leinster fan. I don't think we're actually that far away from something good if we (a) stop fiddling with the structure and (b) bring the weaker/average teams up enough so that they compete with the better sides (currently seems to the Irish sides) when they're depleted. Having Leinster and to a somewhat lesser extent Ulster and Munster putting out second string sides and racking up bonus point wins in most games isn't good. It'd be great to see some of the 'weaker' sides who don't lose as many to international windows grabbing a few scalps and making the league a bit less of a procession.
Nolanator
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Nolanator »

Cartman wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:13 pm Sorry for ruining another competition but rugby every weekend is great.
I've no problem with the SA sides. The problems with the Pro14 are already in place. No competition for Leinster, what sides are dreadful, shit viewing figures etc.
Adding the SA teams is just an attempt to revitalise and open up new markets. This version will be better than with the Kings and Cheetahs, at least.
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by eldanielfire »

nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
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Frodder
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Frodder »

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
That's gotta hurt the Dutch man
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
Ok, the Welsh won't beat either of them.

Whats the league below that again? Assuming the English championship also has relaxation.
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

Frodder wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:51 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
That's gotta hurt the Dutch man
You realise he is talking about sarries right?
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Frodder
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Frodder »

nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:25 pm
Frodder wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:51 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
That's gotta hurt the Dutch man
You realise he is talking about sarries right?
No?really?
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

Couldn't figure out what you were on about in that sentence.
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Jensrsa
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Jensrsa »

HOW IT WILL WORK
- The 2020/21 Guinness PRO14 campaign will finish after 16 rounds with the Conference winners facing each other in a final in late March
- Qualification for EPCR tournaments in 2021/22 will be decided by rankings after Round 16
-On April 17, 2021, the Guinness PRO14 Rainbow Cup will kick-off and introduce the Vodacom Bulls, Emirates Lions, Cell C Sharks and DHL Stormers and their World Cup-winning Springboks
- The Guinness PRO14 Rainbow Cup will consist of a pool stage (two pools of eight teams) and a final between the two pool winners

FINAL CHAPTER OF GUINNESS PRO14
Rounds 12 to 16 will take place from February 20 and conclude on March 20. A final will then take place at the home venue of the highest-ranked team. This abbreviated fixture list will aim to ensure home and away in-conference fixtures are completed and each team plays all of its cross-conference matches also. Further clarification will be available when fixtures are confirmed.

The scheduled dates for the conclusion of the 2020-21 Guinness PRO14 campaign are:

R12: February 20

R13: February 27

R14: March 6

R15: March 13

R16: March 20

Final: March 27

Once Round 16 has been completed, the top-ranked teams from each conference will qualify for the 2021/22 Heineken Champions Cup. Requirement for play-offs is under review.
https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/pro14/gu ... uper-teams
mdaclarke
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by mdaclarke »

Talk is that when the Pro 16 comes along they will have a single conference each team playing each other once and the teams from their own country twice. I assume the Scots and Italians will be treated as one country.

Will mean 18 games in the regular season. 9 home and 9 away
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by eldanielfire »

nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:23 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
Ok, the Welsh won't beat either of them.

Whats the league below that again? Assuming the English championship also has relaxation.
Perhaps it's time to stop digging there, not carry on :lol:
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

eldanielfire wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:12 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:23 pm
eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
Ok, the Welsh won't beat either of them.

Whats the league below that again? Assuming the English championship also has relaxation.
Perhaps it's time to stop digging there, not carry on :lol:
How am I the one digging? If Leinster get thumped by English 2nd tier teams what on earth will happen to the Welsh :o
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nardol
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by nardol »

Oh hang on a sec....


Is today your English day?
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Leinster in London
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Leinster in London »

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:08 pm
nardol wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:37 pm I think the Welsh should play the English.

Defeating Ealing and Jersey would be a huge achievement.
Tough league that. One of their teams beat Leinster last season.
Which match was that?
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Ali's Choice
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Ali's Choice »

I see the South Africans have already destroyed the format of the Celtic League, and the comp hasn't even started yet. Irish and Welsh posters, we warned you this would happen.
Midfieldmaestro
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Midfieldmaestro »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 am I see the South Africans have already destroyed the format of the Celtic League, and the comp hasn't even started yet. Irish and Welsh posters, we warned you this would happen.
No change in the format of the Celtic League had been made. It runs after the B + I Lions tour. 4 SA teams join it and Pro14 becomes Pro16 and 2:SA teams exit, cheetahs & kings.
The Rainbow Pro16 Cup is a new tourney or additional to the normal Pro14.
ZuluBoy
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by ZuluBoy »

The 2 SA owned English Premiership clubs should've played in this to keep the Welsh happy
Last edited by ZuluBoy on Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by LandOTurk »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 am I see the South Africans have already destroyed the format of the Celtic League, and the comp hasn't even started yet. Irish and Welsh posters, we warned you this would happen.
I fear you may be right. AC - the words of wisdom - what has happened to the world. :uhoh:
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PornDog
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by PornDog »

So is this thing actually likely to go ahead? What the hell are we going to do for the next 2-3 months if it doesn't?
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LandOTurk
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by LandOTurk »

PornDog wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:50 pm So is this thing actually likely to go ahead? What the hell are we going to do for the next 2-3 months if it doesn't?
There is no Plan B. x(
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by eldanielfire »

Floppykid wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:00 pm Just a mess.
I find the current Pro14 impossible to follow with it's pools or conferences or whatever.

It also just makes the organisers look tacky, desperate for any and all teams to join.
Agreed. I'll also add how over familiarity seems to have damaged the viewership and attendances of rugby in the SH. How can a test match between a NH side and South Africa feel special when we've seen all the players at it already?
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eldanielfire
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by eldanielfire »

Ali's Choice wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:47 am I see the South Africans have already destroyed the format of the Celtic League, and the comp hasn't even started yet. Irish and Welsh posters, we warned you this would happen.
Posters here needed no warning. NH posters hated it from the start and didn't want it. The Pro Administrators though and useless twats.
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Jensrsa
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Jensrsa »

Opening fixtures confirmed

ROUND 1
24 April 2021
Vodacom Bulls v Emirates Lions
DHL Stormers v Cell C Sharks
Ulster v Connacht
Leinster v Munster
Benetton v Glasgow Warriors
Edinburgh v Zebre Rugby Club
Ospreys v Cardiff Blues
Dragons v Scarlets

ROUND 2
1 May 2021 (EPCR semi-final weekend)
DHL Stormers v Vodacom Bulls
Cell C Sharks v Emirates Lions

8 May 2021
Connacht v Leinster
Munster v Ulster
Zebre v Benetton
Glasgow Warriors v Edinburgh
Cardiff Blues v Dragons
Scarlets v Ospreys

ROUND 3
8 May 2021
Vodacom Bulls v Cell C Sharks
Emirates Lions v DHL Stormers

15 May 2021
Munster v Connacht
Leinster v Ulster
Benetton v Zebre
Edinburgh v Glasgow Warriors
Scarlets v Cardiff Blues
Dragons v Ospreys

ROUND 4: Weekend of 29 May

ROUND 5: Weekend of 5 June

ROUND 6: Weekend of 12 June

FINAL: Weekend of 19 June
Rounds four to six will see the four South African teams play their away games in Europe and those fixtures will be confirmed once all appropriate travel approvals have been confirmed by the relevant authorities and governments. The format means that no teams from Europe will travel to South Africa for Rainbow Cup games because of prevailing COVID-19 conditions.
https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/opening-ra ... confirmed/
Last edited by Jensrsa on Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr. Very Popular
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

Great, more interpro games.
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Jensrsa
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Jensrsa »

Mr. Very Popular wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am Great, more interpro games.
A change from the original format (2 pools of 8 teams), which would have had only one derby per team
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Mr. Very Popular
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Mr. Very Popular »

Jensrsa wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:27 pm
Mr. Very Popular wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am Great, more interpro games.
A change from the original format (2 pools of 8 teams), which would have had only one derby per team
This will have us playing (losing to) Leinster 5 times since August, hardly stirring stuff.
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Jensrsa
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Re: The Rainbow Cup (Pro16) 2021

Post by Jensrsa »

Eina!

(Afrikaans for "Ouch!")

It's a pity they had to change the format. I was looking forward to us playing 5 or 6 NH teams instead of R&R of the 3 derbies we already had since November
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