The culture of sexual abuse in different countries WARNING sensible discussion only to page 4

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eldanielfire
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The culture of sexual abuse in different countries WARNING sensible discussion only to page 4

Post by eldanielfire »

I was reading this article about incest and sexual abuse high up in France. The article seems to indicate it an issue French society hasn't got to grips with and partly the French culture since the 60'ssexual revolution has papered over it.

To our French posters and insightful Francophiles, I was wondering if the article about this are accurate and how is France dealing with it today? Is it over stating it or the feelings of French society today? Is there a lot of sexual abuse covered up culturally or politically? Or is there a more real or accurate spin on all of this?


Cheers.


France begins to confront decades of neglect of incest cases
Book alleging political scientist Olivier Duhamel sexually abused stepson has led to resignations and calls for changes to age of consent

Kim Willsher in Paris

Wed 10 Feb 2021 05.00 GMTLast modified on Wed 10 Feb 2021 05.02 GMT
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Camille Kouchner’s book La Familia Grande claims that the abuse of her brother was common knowledge in her family’s social circle.
Camille Kouchner’s book La Familia Grande claims that the abuse of her brother was common knowledge in her family’s social circle. Photograph: François Mori/AP
When Camille Kouchner – daughter of a former government minister and stepdaughter to a renowned constitutional expert – wrote a book about alleged child sexual abuse in her family it sparked another of France’s periodic moral, social and political crises.

Once again, the country turned itself out to explain why another of its great and good might have abused a child, and how their equally great and good friends might have turned a blind eye – but this time the impact went much further.

In her book La Familia Grande – printed amid great secrecy last month – Kouchner, 45, the daughter of Bernard Kouchner, a former Socialist minister and co-founder of Médecins Sans Frontières, claimed that Olivier Duhamel, a constitutional expert and president of the board that oversees the prestigious Sciences Po university, had sexually abused her twin brother.

Within hours, survivors were posting their traumatic stories under the #MeTooInceste hashtag.

The book sold out within days and Duhamel, 70, resigned all his positions including regular media slots. He has made no public statements. Police announced an investigation into “rape and sexual abuse of a minor” and have interviewed Duhamel’s stepson.

Within a week others had toppled like dominoes. The philosopher Alain Finkielkraut lost his regular television slot after seemingly suggesting Duhamel’s alleged behaviour was not that serious because his stepson was “an adolescent”. Élisabeth Guigou, a former justice minister and another Duhamel friend, resigned as president of the committee looking into paedophilia and incest while insisting she “had no idea of the serious facts”.

The Île-de-France prefect Marc Guillaume, yet another Duhamel friend, quit his post on the Fondation Nationale des Sciences Politiques (FNSP), which oversees the prestigious Sciences Po grande école and of which Duhamel was president.

Within a fortnight Emmanuel Macron became involved, speaking to praise the bravery of those who had broken the omertà on incest and child abuse and calling for legislative change.

Late on Tuesday, another high-profile figure became the latest casualty of the scandal. Frédéric Mion, the director of Sciences Po, who previously admitted he was informed of the accusations against Duhamel in 2018, resigned admitting he had made “errors of judgement”.

Former police captain Laurent Boyet, who says he was abused as a six-year-old by an older brother, now runs an association, Les Papillons, to help youngsters speak out about incest and assault. He says Kouchner’s book has dragged France to a crossroads.

“What this book and the #MeTooInceste has done is allow families to say: ‘That’s enough. Stop. I don’t want to be part of this horror any longer. Stop inviting that uncle to weddings when you know he’s an abuser.’ It demands that each and every family examines its conscience,” he said.

“Because of this it has given hope to the victims. Hopefully the message will spread to outside of France, because it’s not just a problem here.”

France’s post-1968 generation adopted an intellectual position that 60s promiscuity encompassed adult sexual relations and those with youngsters. A 1977 petition supported by a group of leftwing intellectuals, including Bernard Kouchner, called for a lowering of the age of consent to 13. Jean-Paul Sartre and Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida and Simone de Beauvoir were among the signatories.

During the late 1980s, Duhamel and his wife Évelyne Pisier, a feminist writer who had a four-year affair with Fidel Castro – would invite their intellectual friends to the family estate in Sanary-sur-Mer on the French Rivièra each summer. This was “La Familia Grande”. There were parties, skinny-dipping in the pool and naked drives to the seaside. The motto was “Freedom above all”, Kouchner writes.

“Parents and children kissed each other on the mouth. My stepfather flirted with his friends’ wives. The friends picked up the nannies. Young men were offered to older women.” She wrote that her mother, who died in 2017, had explained: “There’s no harm in it, my little Camille. I know what’s going on.”

An anecdote in the book recounts how one young, female guest to the Duhamels’ estate complained to the police after a man slipped uninvited into her bed. “The young woman was repudiated, vilified by my stepfather and mother who were appalled by such vulgarity. They explained to me I had to understand: the girl had exaggerated,” Kouchner, a lawyer and university lecturer, writes.

She tells how her twin, called “Victor” in the book, eventually told his mother that Duhamel had sexually abused him from the age of 13. Pisier angrily accused her son of seducing her husband. Kouchner says the abuse was no secret because “everyone knew”.

A poll by Ipsos in November estimate one in 10 French people have been the victim of sexual abuse within the family as children or adolescents; 78% were female and 22% male. The poll suggested the number of incest cases has risen from 3% of the population in 2009, meaning to 2 million victims, to 10% in 2020 – 6.7 million victims.

Psychiatrist Muriel Salmona, a childhood abuse survivor and president of the association Mémoire Traumatique et Victimologie said Kouchner’s book had come at a time when French society was ready to “smash the omertà surrounding incest”.

“There has been a culture of impunity particularly for those in positions of privilege, power and domination over women and children,” Salmona says. “These people, mostly white men, the all-powerful, are adored and feted […] This generates a sort of sexual privilege to exploit women and children with impunity.

“Nobody wants to keep hearing these old words, we have to admit that we have let something atrocious happen and make amends. We must fight this impunity. We were considered the silly women and girls who were uptight, incapable of liberating ourselves, incapable of higher thought, but now we will send them to prison.”

Under French law, there is no legal age of sexual consent (last month the Senate voted for the threshold to be set at 13) and at present a victim of rape or abuse is considered consenting by default and has to prove non-consent. New legislation proposes to criminalise sexual acts between an adult and a child under 13 – currently an “offence” and not a “crime” – with heavier prison sentences, particularly for incest, and extending the statute of limitations giving victims more time to bring legal proceedings.

Laurent Boyer says he desperately hopes the wave of outrage sparked by #MeTooInceste will not eventually break on “the sands of indifference”. Les Papillons has put letter boxes in more than a dozen schools and youth sports clubs to encourage victims to break their self-imposed silence, and hopes to install them across France.

He stressed that child sexual abuse in the family knows no social, economic or geographical boundaries. “We put a box in one day and the next we have letters from children who need help,” he says. “There are no exceptions. It can be happening in any family.”

He admits it is not just the abuse that has a “catastrophic” legacy.

“It’s not just what is done, for me it was also the 30 years of silence, fear, shame, guilt … 30 years of self-destruction and addiction. It was a non-life, of being but not being there. That’s why we have to say, Stop. Enough.”
Last edited by eldanielfire on Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by DAC_ »

I read a story yesterday about the French Fire Service (not all of them) and the abuse of a young person. MInd boggling stuff to be honest.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by JamesJames »

DAC_ wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:19 pm I read a story yesterday about the French Fire Service (not all of them) and the abuse of a young person. MInd boggling stuff to be honest.
Hope they aren't covering it up like the Brits did in several cities. Apparently Rotherham's finest ignored thousands of complaints for fear of seeming racist.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mick Mannock »

I count myself fortunate to have never been the victim/subject of sexual abuse.

Having worked in adult mental health services in London for a number of years, it became increasingly clear that a significant percentage of my caseload - mostly severe and enduring mental illness - had been so subjected as children.

Those were just the people who spoke about it - some 30%.

Pretty good chance that some on this bored have been victims IMO.

Some might even have been perps.

Edited to avoid ambiguity.
Last edited by Mick Mannock on Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mick Mannock »

JamesJames wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:37 pm
DAC_ wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:19 pm I read a story yesterday about the French Fire Service (not all of them) and the abuse of a young person. MInd boggling stuff to be honest.
Hope they aren't covering it up like the Brits did in several cities. Apparently Rotherham's finest ignored thousands of complaints for fear of seeming racist.
Really?

You think?
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mullet 2 »

Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:41 pm I count myself fortunate to have never been the victim/subject of sexual abuse.

Having worked with adult mental health services in London for a number of years, it became increasingly clear that a significant percentage of my caseload - mostly severe and enduring mental illness - had been so subjected as children.

Those were just the people who spoke about it - some 30%.

Pretty good chance that some on this bored have been the victims IMO.

Some might even have been perps.
Fixed
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mick Mannock »

Mullet 2 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:43 pm
Mick Mannock wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:41 pm I count myself fortunate to have never been the victim/subject of sexual abuse.

Having worked with adult mental health services in London for a number of years, it became increasingly clear that a significant percentage of my caseload - mostly severe and enduring mental illness - had been so subjected as children.

Those were just the people who spoke about it - some 30%.

Pretty good chance that some on this bored have been the victims IMO.

Some might even have been perps.
Fixed
I would not have come into contact with you.

We have specialist services for those with personality disorder.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mullet 2 »

I'd say your contact was kept minimal alright
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mick Mannock »

I would say yours still is.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

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I don't know if this is particular to France or not. Difficult to assess how many unknown cases for each case that becomes public.

The horrible thing with these crimes is that the victims often find it extremely difficult to talk about it, seek help and get the perpetrators arrested.

The story you posted, Eldanielfire, show how deep this omerta goes... "Victor's" (as he named in the book) own father knew about the abuse and never did anything about it. This is beyond believable. Beyond hope. Many people, starting with his sister, who finally summoned the courage to write a book, were aware and nobody did a thing about it.

Same goes in the Catholic Church, schools, sports club. People know, but people remain silent. Sometimes it is disbelief, sometimes it is the fear of not being able to prove the truth and be exposed as a lier, sometimes it is the desire to protect an organization, a club, a family reputation. Whatever it is, these crimes are not outed and more victims are abused.

It is revolting and hopefully, with these cases becoming public, awareness will be raised. I hope that people in the know who kept silent will be charged as well, to send a message to all.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

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Another Brexit thread. Yippee
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mick Mannock »

TheFrog wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:07 pm I don't know if this is particular to France or not. Difficult to assess how many unknown cases for each case that becomes public.

The horrible thing with these crimes is that the victims often find it extremely difficult to talk about it, seek help and get the perpetrators arrested.

The story you posted, Eldanielfire, show how deep this omerta goes... "Victor's" (as he named in the book) own father knew about the abuse and never did anything about it. This is beyond believable. Beyond hope. Many people, starting with his sister, who finally summoned the courage to write a book, were aware and nobody did a thing about it.

Same goes in the Catholic Church, schools, sports club. People know, but people remain silent. Sometimes it is disbelief, sometimes it is the fear of not being able to prove the truth and be exposed as a lier, sometimes it is the desire to protect an organization, a club, a family reputation. Whatever it is, these crimes are not outed and more victims are abused.

It is revolting and hopefully, with these cases becoming public, awareness will be raised. I hope that people in the know who kept silent will be charged as well, to send a message to all.
Of course it isn't
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by eldanielfire »

EverReady wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:17 pm Another Brexit thread. Yippee
Only you have brought up Brexit FFS!
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by The Sun God »

TheFrog wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:07 pm I don't know if this is particular to France or not. Difficult to assess how many unknown cases for each case that becomes public.

The horrible thing with these crimes is that the victims often find it extremely difficult to talk about it, seek help and get the perpetrators arrested.

The story you posted, Eldanielfire, show how deep this omerta goes... "Victor's" (as he named in the book) own father knew about the abuse and never did anything about it. This is beyond believable. Beyond hope. Many people, starting with his sister, who finally summoned the courage to write a book, were aware and nobody did a thing about it.

Same goes in the Catholic Church, schools, sports club. People know, but people remain silent. Sometimes it is disbelief, sometimes it is the fear of not being able to prove the truth and be exposed as a lier, sometimes it is the desire to protect an organization, a club, a family reputation. Whatever it is, these crimes are not outed and more victims are abused.

It is revolting and hopefully, with these cases becoming public, awareness will be raised. I hope that people in the know who kept silent will be charged as well, to send a message to all.
Although I have been living here almost 8 years, it was only recently that I read that there is no age of consent written into the French Penal Code. I know that Macron wants to amend that but it all seems to move very slowly here.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

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Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mullet 2 »

backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Yeeb talking about child rape shocker
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

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So Ireland-France this weekend is basically the Nonce Derby?
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by backrow »

Mullet 2 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:56 am
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Yeeb talking about child rape shocker
Obsessed Irishman punching himself in face by mentioning children and then claiming victory shocker
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by C69 »

backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Ffs this is systemic predatory paedophilia you bellend.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

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MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:01 pm So Ireland-France this weekend is basically the Nonce Derby?
You'd fit in well.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by backrow »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:01 pm So Ireland-France this weekend is basically the Nonce Derby?
Appears so. Wonder why Italy never got on board ? Probably because their straight porn is so good, as well as their food and weather - just no need.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Lemoentjie »

Well, Catholic societies never really got the openness of the Reformation and this mirrors the top-down structure of the Catholic Church.

England is an exception, as the CoE is basically Catholic and many of the landholder aristocracy were actually Catholic.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mullet 2 »

backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:56 am
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Yeeb talking about child rape shocker
Obsessed Irishman punching himself in face by mentioning children and then claiming victory shocker

Yes it's totally normal that a lad posts 40% of the time about child rape

Good thing you spend the rest of time talking about what a killer ladies man you are.

Covers up well
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by CM11 »

backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:56 am
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Yeeb talking about child rape shocker
Obsessed Irishman punching himself in face by mentioning children and then claiming victory shocker
What do you think this thread is about, you twat?
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mullet 2 »

Lemoentjie wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:18 pm Well, Catholic societies never really got the openness of the Reformation and this mirrors the top-down structure of the Catholic Church.

England is an exception, as the CoE is basically Catholic and many of the landholder aristocracy were actually Catholic.
Yes the Dutch reformed church of South Africa is a paragon of openness
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Mullet 2 »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:22 pm
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:56 am
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Yeeb talking about child rape shocker
Obsessed Irishman punching himself in face by mentioning children and then claiming victory shocker
What do you think this thread is about, you twat?
Ohh have you not met Yeeb?

Stage 1 - Shit Joke from the 70s
Stage 2 - I won innit and you lost (repeat 40 times and wait for Terry and DAC)
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by AND-y »

Where there are (normally) men in positions of authority there will be sexual abuse. Suggesting it is a culturally French thing is pretty vile. In reality the "lighter" forms of sexual abuse seem to be "culturally" accepted by many all over and attitudes need to change.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by JamesJames »

AND-y wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:43 pm Where there are (normally) men in positions of authority there will be sexual abuse. Suggesting it is a culturally French thing is pretty vile. In reality the "lighter" forms of sexual abuse seem to be 3"culturally" accepted by many all over and attitudes need to change.
Haredis cover it up actively as do the Catholic church. UK had the midlands rape gangs. In Africa it is very common. New Zealand and Aus have certain communities where it is rife. Its a problem as old as time and needs to be faced head on. I see that vile Aussie Israeli school mistress has finally been extradited to Aus to face trial. After years of sheltering her. Many such cases unfortunately.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by eldanielfire »

AND-y wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:43 pm Where there are (normally) men in positions of authority there will be sexual abuse. Suggesting it is a culturally French thing is pretty vile. In reality the "lighter" forms of sexual abuse seem to be "culturally" accepted by many all over and attitudes need to change.
No one has claimed that at all x( yes sexual abuse occurs all over the place, however given the article that prompted the topic asks the questions of how it particularly manifests in France, probing if society or pockets of it there has been permissive, secretive or even accepting of such things and the consequences we are seeing in cases today and in the past.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by CM11 »

The issue with France (and yes they're not unique) is the age of consent. Meaning that, as DAC mentioned, a group of firefighters can share a 13 year old around and not be charged with anything. I find that shocking. Correct me if I've got that story wrong.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by JamesJames »

There are an estimated 60,000 survivors of institutional child sexual abuse in Australia.

According to this source.


https://theconversation.com/my-mob-is-t ... eed-122645
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by JamesJames »

JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:18 pm There are an estimated 60,000 survivors of institutional child sexual abuse in Australia.

According to this source.


https://theconversation.com/my-mob-is-t ... eed-122645
How many prosecutions have there been as a result?
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by A5D5E5 »

JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:19 pm
JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:18 pm There are an estimated 60,000 survivors of institutional child sexual abuse in Australia.

According to this source.


https://theconversation.com/my-mob-is-t ... eed-122645
How many prosecutions have there been as a result?
Talking to yourself again? I'd suggest buying another computer as clearly you can't handle two separate tabs.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by Varsity Way »

A5D5E5 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:32 pm
JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:19 pm
JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:18 pm There are an estimated 60,000 survivors of institutional child sexual abuse in Australia.

According to this source.


https://theconversation.com/my-mob-is-t ... eed-122645
How many prosecutions have there been as a result?
Talking to yourself again? I'd suggest buying another computer as clearly you can't handle two separate tabs.
Always amusing when the trolls and multi's forget to log out and then log in.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

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Easy to spot the wrong 'uns...

Image
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by eldanielfire »

Varsity Way wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:34 pm
A5D5E5 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:32 pm
JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:19 pm
JamesJames wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:18 pm There are an estimated 60,000 survivors of institutional child sexual abuse in Australia.

According to this source.


https://theconversation.com/my-mob-is-t ... eed-122645
How many prosecutions have there been as a result?
Talking to yourself again? I'd suggest buying another computer as clearly you can't handle two separate tabs.
Always amusing when the trolls and multi's forget to log out and then log in.
It doesn't that help that this has happened on a few occasions in just a couple of weeks :lol:
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by eldanielfire »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:35 pm Easy to spot the wrong 'uns...

Image
I was shocked a few years ago at how many countries had no/little legal blocks on incest. Not just that but also how many weirdos all over the place got a bit too excited at the incest stuff in Game of Thrones.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by MrDominator »

eldanielfire wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:40 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:35 pm Easy to spot the wrong 'uns...

Image
I was shocked a few years ago at how many countries had no/little legal blocks on incest. Not just that but also how many weirdos all over the place got a bit too excited at the incest stuff in Game of Thrones.
Shocking indeed.

And they wonder why we wanted to leave the EU.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by backrow »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:22 pm
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:56 am
backrow wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:49 am Catholic’s in bumming their own shocker
Yeeb talking about child rape shocker
Obsessed Irishman punching himself in face by mentioning children and then claiming victory shocker
What do you think this thread is about, you twat?
It appears to be (one of many) where certain Irish posters punch themselves in da fais and yet somehow claiming victory.
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Re: The culture of sexual abuse in France

Post by TheFrog »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:11 pm The issue with France (and yes they're not unique) is the age of consent. Meaning that, as DAC mentioned, a group of firefighters can share a 13 year old around and not be charged with anything. I find that shocking. Correct me if I've got that story wrong.
It is not quite like that... there is no law in France that defines an age where you are considered to have reached sexual adulthood, or "majority". There is however a law acknowledges the right of having sexual relationships after 15 years old.

This has set a sort of precedent for the "legal" age of sexual relationships. As a result, a teen who is older than 15 can have sexual relationships with another team who is 15 and higher, or with an adult providing, of course, that the teen is fully consenting. However, there are plenty of legal precedents condemning adults in position of power or care for having had sex with a 15+ teen under their responsibility, even if the teen said that he/she had consented to the act. In practical terms, adults can therefore be charged for having sex with a teen 15+.

The debate in France is whether or not this legal age should be raised.

With respect to kids who are younger than 15, sexual relationships are explicitly prohibited and any adult having sex a teen younger than 15 will face a minimum of 7 years in jail, and, generally, if it is established that there was no mutual contentment - and often it is the case as the child is not considered mature enough to freely consent to a sexual relationship - then it is 10 to 20 years in jail.

Basically, sex without consent is rape aggravated by the violation of the age limit.

So, no, firemen can't share a 13 years old between them without facing a long term in jail.
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