Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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TheFrog
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Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by TheFrog »

Two french neurosurgeons issued a stern warning to Johnny Sexton, advising him against playing on Sunday:

https://www.planetrugby.com/french-neur ... ions-game/

To what Sexton reacted badly:

https://www.planetrugby.com/ireland-cap ... ions-game/

Mind games? Trues concerns? Unethical behavior from the surgeons? Reckless behavior from Sexton and criminal behavior from the IRFU?
“So what it takes is for him to know what to expect and make the right decisions. I think we can now hear, ‘Yes, I have a risk of developing a neurodegenerative disease but I want to take that risk’.

“But we have to explain to him what it is.”
The neurologist told French radio station RMC Sport on Tuesday that he believed the 35-year-old has sustained around 30 concussions during his career and expressed concern about him rushing back into action.
“I am pretty saddened and shocked by the inaccurate reports that were thrown out yesterday,” [Sexton] said.

“We’ve been here before and it’s very frustrating. For me, I just think it’s totally inappropriate that a doctor that I have seen – many years ago now – felt it was appropriate to come out and talk to whoever it was and say those things.
“I thought there was patient and doctor confidentiality, I am pretty sure that exists in the world, and I just can’t get over the fact that someone thought it was appropriate to just come out of nowhere and just start saying things that weren’t even accurate, that’s the most hurtful thing.
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EverReady
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by EverReady »

Looks dodge from the doc as he treated Sexy so should be keeping his mouth shut. On the other hand 30 concussions for a rugby player doesn't sound impossible. Bottom line is though he treated Sexy so giving specifics, which Johnny disputes, is dodgy
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

The doctor has apologised and confirmed it wasn't 30 concussions. He also confirmed the criteria for which it would be OK for Sexton to play and to my knowledge Sexton has met that criteria.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by inactionman »

Medical professionals should, of course, just shut up and let ex-patients continue to damage themselves.

Less tritely, If Sexton wants to go against advice of some of his ex-doctors, that's up to him, but I'd say those doctors have a right to warn him and others of the risks they perceive Sexton is taking - noting they are not his current doctors so do not have consultations with him.
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CM11
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

inactionman wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:00 pm Medical professionals should, of course, just shut up and let ex-patients continue to damage themselves.

Less tritely, If Sexton wants to go against advice of some of his ex-doctors, that's up to him, but I'd say those doctors have a right to warn him and others of the risks they perceive Sexton is taking - noting they are not his current doctors so do not have consultations with him.
They should convey any concerns they have directly to Sexton. Not in an interview in French, in the French media while divulging medical information.
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TheFrog
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by TheFrog »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:03 pm
inactionman wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:00 pm Medical professionals should, of course, just shut up and let ex-patients continue to damage themselves.

Less tritely, If Sexton wants to go against advice of some of his ex-doctors, that's up to him, but I'd say those doctors have a right to warn him and others of the risks they perceive Sexton is taking - noting they are not his current doctors so do not have consultations with him.
They should convey any concerns they have directly to Sexton. Not in an interview in French, in the French media while divulging medical information.
I tend to agree with this. There is a patient-doctor confidentiality obligation and they should not discuss specifics publicly. And they can always reach out to him and share their concerns privately.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by inactionman »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:03 pm
inactionman wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:00 pm Medical professionals should, of course, just shut up and let ex-patients continue to damage themselves.

Less tritely, If Sexton wants to go against advice of some of his ex-doctors, that's up to him, but I'd say those doctors have a right to warn him and others of the risks they perceive Sexton is taking - noting they are not his current doctors so do not have consultations with him.
They should convey any concerns they have directly to Sexton. Not in an interview in French, in the French media while divulging medical information.
I still think airing an opinion on concussion is legitimate - clearly Sexton isn't going with anything they have to say, and there's a broader public health issue around sporting head injuries.

Depends whether recounting how many concussions they estimate he's had is crossing a confidentiality boundary. If they're commenting on other publicly stated cases, it's fair enough, if they're disclosing cases Sexton would expect to remain private then that's crossing that boundary.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Duff Paddy »

He was silly for commenting on a person he has treated in the past but he does have a point.
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CM11
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

inactionman wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:08 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:03 pm
inactionman wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:00 pm Medical professionals should, of course, just shut up and let ex-patients continue to damage themselves.

Less tritely, If Sexton wants to go against advice of some of his ex-doctors, that's up to him, but I'd say those doctors have a right to warn him and others of the risks they perceive Sexton is taking - noting they are not his current doctors so do not have consultations with him.
They should convey any concerns they have directly to Sexton. Not in an interview in French, in the French media while divulging medical information.
I still think airing an opinion on concussion is legitimate - clearly Sexton isn't going with anything they have to say, and there's a broader public health issue around sporting head injuries.

Depends whether recounting how many concussions they estimate he's had is crossing a confidentiality boundary. If they're commenting on other publicly stated cases, it's fair enough, if they're disclosing cases Sexton would expect to remain private then that's crossing that boundary.
As I said, he's confirmed it wasn't 30 concussions and the info was very much private.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Duff Paddy »

Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
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CM11
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:35 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
At the same time, the number of concussions suffered by Sexton must be pretty much public information, it is just a matter of taking the time to go through his game records and you'll get there more or less, unless he had as many K.O. in training as he had during games.

They didn't go into the specific of his brain's state for example, and didn't say whether he already has lesions or not.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

TheFrog wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:44 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:35 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
At the same time, the number of concussions suffered by Sexton must be pretty much public information, it is just a matter of taking the time to go through his game records and you'll get there more or less, unless he had as many K.O. in training as he had during games.

They didn't go into the specific of his brain's state for example, and didn't say whether he already has lesions or not.
Again, the doctor clarified he didn't mean concussion but also sub concussion (whatever that is, I'm assuming it means a bad knock) so he then made it worse by divulging information that would not have been in the public domain.

He also clarified in his apology that he was talking through his arse, even if it was an educated arse.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Gavin Duffy »

Surely someone with a lot of spare time could go back through his tapes/match reports etc and see how many times he’s been sparked out?
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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Gavin Duffy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:31 pm Surely someone with a lot of spare time could go back through his tapes/match reports etc and see how many times he’s been sparked out?
And that wouldn't give you the figure the doctor is talking about.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Flametop »

Concussion can make you narky and aggressive later in life.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:39 pm
Gavin Duffy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:31 pm Surely someone with a lot of spare time could go back through his tapes/match reports etc and see how many times he’s been sparked out?
And that wouldn't give you the figure the doctor is talking about.
Would still be useful data
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Ulsters Red Hand »

We should just rename this the Sexton strop thread
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

Gavin Duffy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:45 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:39 pm
Gavin Duffy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:31 pm Surely someone with a lot of spare time could go back through his tapes/match reports etc and see how many times he’s been sparked out?
And that wouldn't give you the figure the doctor is talking about.
Would still be useful data
For who?
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:46 pm We should just rename this the Sexton strop thread
Did you watch the interview as opposed to reading it in a narky voice?

He was perfectly calm and made reasonable points.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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So, do we think Sexton's story will end up as a Junior Seau piece of selfless advancement of medical science, or cross-faced crippler family tragedy?
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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Short Man Syndrome wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:09 pm So, do we think Sexton's story will end up as a Junior Seau piece of selfless advancement of medical science, or cross-faced crippler family tragedy?
I think you might have overcooked that one.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

It's all very well having a pop at the doctor right up until Sexton develops early-onset dementia in his mid-40s, he can't remember his name in his mid-50s and then the same people will ask why nobody stopped him.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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Fruit and Nutt wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:23 pm It's all very well having a pop at the doctor right up until Sexton develops early-onset dementia in his mid-40s, he can't remember his name in his mid-50s and then the same people will ask why nobody stopped him.
Nobody is being dismissive of Sexton’s health.
We are being dismissive of the timing of the release of his confidential medical files by doctors of the same nationality as the team that he is about to face, in the week before he is due to play them.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

Flametop wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 pm
Fruit and Nutt wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:23 pm It's all very well having a pop at the doctor right up until Sexton develops early-onset dementia in his mid-40s, he can't remember his name in his mid-50s and then the same people will ask why nobody stopped him.
Nobody is being dismissive of Sexton’s health.
We are being dismissive of the timing of the release of his confidential medical files by doctors of the same nationality as the team that he is about to face, in the week before he is due to play them.

Why would a French doctor give a toss any other time? It's the perfect time to raise the question.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by CM11 »

Fruit and Nutt wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:29 pm
Flametop wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 pm
Fruit and Nutt wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:23 pm It's all very well having a pop at the doctor right up until Sexton develops early-onset dementia in his mid-40s, he can't remember his name in his mid-50s and then the same people will ask why nobody stopped him.
Nobody is being dismissive of Sexton’s health.
We are being dismissive of the timing of the release of his confidential medical files by doctors of the same nationality as the team that he is about to face, in the week before he is due to play them.

Why would a French doctor give a toss any other time? It's the perfect time to raise the question.
He hasn't been Sexton's doctor for 5 years and was only briefly his doctor. Of course he's right there's a risk for Sexton. The issue was how much risk after last weekend and he has confirmed it's low risk if certain criteria, which I believe have been met, are satisfied. Sexton himself can then decide on the risk based on advice from his current doctors.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Fruit and Nutt »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:46 pm
Fruit and Nutt wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:29 pm
Flametop wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 pm
Fruit and Nutt wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:23 pm It's all very well having a pop at the doctor right up until Sexton develops early-onset dementia in his mid-40s, he can't remember his name in his mid-50s and then the same people will ask why nobody stopped him.
Nobody is being dismissive of Sexton’s health.
We are being dismissive of the timing of the release of his confidential medical files by doctors of the same nationality as the team that he is about to face, in the week before he is due to play them.

Why would a French doctor give a toss any other time? It's the perfect time to raise the question.
He hasn't been Sexton's doctor for 5 years and was only briefly his doctor. Of course he's right there's a risk for Sexton. The issue was how much risk after last weekend and he has confirmed it's low risk if certain criteria, which I believe have been met, are satisfied. Sexton himself can then decide on the risk based on advice from his current doctors.


Maybe 5 years ago this doctor told him he thought he was already marginal. To be honest, if the game had had more of this type of paternalistic intervention in the past then it maybe wouldn't be facing a class-action law suit now.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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The timing is completely coincidental.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Short Man Syndrome »

Flametop wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:14 pm
Short Man Syndrome wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:09 pm So, do we think Sexton's story will end up as a Junior Seau piece of selfless advancement of medical science, or cross-faced crippler family tragedy?
I think you might have overcooked that one.
Maybe, but who knows with CTE.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:35 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
Totally agreee.

Bizarre how Sexton constantly gets picked on while the likes of North etc go under the radar.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:34 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:35 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
Totally agreee.

Bizarre how Sexton constantly gets picked on while the likes of North etc go under the radar.
It comes up almost every time North gets picked for Wales. The difference is that this time there was a neurosurgeon who has treated Sexton in the past involved.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by MrDominator »

DOB wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:36 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:34 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:35 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
Totally agreee.

Bizarre how Sexton constantly gets picked on while the likes of North etc go under the radar.
It comes up almost every time North gets picked for Wales. The difference is that this time there was a neurosurgeon who has treated Sexton in the past involved.
Not nearly so often.

And I don't recall an opposition coach ever targeting North and his concussions as EJ did with Sexton a few years ago.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by DOB »

MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:53 pm
DOB wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:36 pm
MrDominator wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:34 pm
CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:35 pm
Duff Paddy wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:20 pm Was it 31 :lol: basically he had been tackling high his whole career. The bastareaud games alone probably f**ked him. He is fearless just hope it doesn’t have consequences down the road.
We've no idea how many it was. 30 referred to concussions and head knocks. It could have been one actual concussion but the point is that it was private medical information and he'll probably have more than just an apology as his consequence.

Can't believe anyone thinks it's right in any way.
Totally agreee.

Bizarre how Sexton constantly gets picked on while the likes of North etc go under the radar.
It comes up almost every time North gets picked for Wales. The difference is that this time there was a neurosurgeon who has treated Sexton in the past involved.
Not nearly so often.

And I don't recall an opposition coach ever targeting North and his concussions as EJ did with Sexton a few years ago.
Well North isn't central to everything Wales do. Teams are always going to target the 10, because it's really easy to send large flankers and centres down his channel off first and 2nd phase all game. They play that way against George Ford or Ronan O'Gara or Romain N'Tamack or Michael Lynagh, and they won't just change because this week's opponent has a flyhalf with a glass jaw.

North doesn't get specifically targetted by opposition teams (that we know of), but the subject of his concussions does come up regularly in the media. A quick google of "George North Concussion" brings up several articles from his most recent high profile one this time last year, and also a Beeb article from as far back as 2016 saying he "would be told to retire were he an amateur."

The other thing is, as a coach or a player, if you start targetting players with known concussion issues, you're opening up a can of worms, as (in the current climate) your own team is likely carrying someone who's spent a significant amount of time in HIA. It's the nuclear deterrent on a very small scale.
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Muttonbirds »

Are they close to finding the area of the brain responsible for whinging?
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Yer Man »

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:46 pm We should just rename this the Sexton strop thread
Gonna need a bigger thread
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by Edinburgh01 »

CM11 wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:00 pm The doctor has apologised and confirmed it wasn't 30 concussions. He also confirmed the criteria for which it would be OK for Sexton to play and to my knowledge Sexton has met that criteria.
Is there a link to this apology?
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by The Sun God »

Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:46 pm We should just rename this the Sexton strop thread
Are you a total idiot or is it just a game you play ?
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by EverReady »

CM11 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:05 am https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1196340/
Yeah I thought so. He is right as many games you will get a wallop that needs even a brief shaking off. Some bigger than others. Fact is he worded it very poorly
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Re: Sexton vs French Neurosurgeons

Post by MungoMan »

The Sun God wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:10 am
Ulsters Red Hand wrote: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:46 pm We should just rename this the Sexton strop thread
Are you a total idiot or is it just a game you play ?
Contestant A: "I'm going with the first one".
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