Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

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shanky
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Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Presumably this has been done before, but Sean Connery’s death puts it back on the agenda.

I’ll start...Monty was a short arse bastard who got lots of guys killed

Amirite?
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Winnie
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Winnie »

One of the greatest war time movies ever

Gene Hackmans polish accent was shite
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Winnie wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:39 pm One of the greatest war time movies ever

Gene Hackmans polish accent was shite
Let’s be honest.

Who, if anyone, can do a good Polish accent.

Certainly not cowardly General Browning
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Mullet 2 »

Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
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The Sun God
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by The Sun God »

Ryan O'Neill was totally miscast although the General he was portraying , James Gavin, was only 37 during Market Garden....

Still though, my favourite war movie ever.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Gynormus »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm Presumably this has been done before, but Sean Connery’s death puts it back on the agenda.

I’ll start...Monty was a short arse bastard who got lots of guys killed

Amirite?
Yet again Connery's command of an accent other than his Edinburg drawl is terrible
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Mullet 2 »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

I’ll say what the Irish are too demure to say

British cavalry regiments were/are? full of cvnts

Sad to say it, but valid
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
Fair enough
Go the Polska!
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The Sun God
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by The Sun God »

Also....Joe Vandeleur was a great friend of my Granddad both before and after the war. My dad was at his funeral back in the '80's.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

The Sun God wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:50 pm Also....Joe Vandeleur was a great friend of my Granddad both before and after the war. My dad was at his funeral back in the '80's.
:thumbup:
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by DOB »

Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Gynormus wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:46 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm Presumably this has been done before, but Sean Connery’s death puts it back on the agenda.

I’ll start...Monty was a short arse bastard who got lots of guys killed

Amirite?
Yet again Connery's command of an accent other than his Edinburg drawl is terrible
I literally don’t care

To steal a quote..I’d literally pay money to watch that man drink beer, he’s that cool. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by ukjim »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm I’ll say what the Irish are too demure to say

British cavalry regiments were/are? full of cvnts

Sad to say it, but valid
as true today as it was in harry flashmans day.

what right minded fella wears scarlet cords?
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

DOB wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:53 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
At that time they were (quite literally) fighting for their homeland. So, I guess there’s the added element of determination to add to the skill. But they probably couldn’t claim additional combat experience, in that sense
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by The Sun God »

DOB wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:53 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
My Grandfather always said that they were very competent airmen when they arrived but after a few flying hours in a spitfire, they were pretty lethal .
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

ukjim wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm I’ll say what the Irish are too demure to say

British cavalry regiments were/are? full of cvnts

Sad to say it, but valid
as true today as it was in harry flashmans day.

what right minded fella wears scarlet cords?
A
Even in my own experience, I’ve got a story...(second hand, not me)

Young officer seconded to the regiment, runs up (because of ceremony, not because of self) huge mess bill

At the end of secondment, literally unable to pay bill, appeals to C.O

The chap whips out his chequebook and personally clears it for him, like it’s nothing
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Anyway, despite what apologists will say, I find myself more-than-willing to believe that this was Monty’s ego at play

If, for no other reason, than because Ike was so naturally cautious, but so politically expedient at the same time

He was Colin Powell’s ancestor, so to speak
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by MrDominator »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm Presumably this has been done before, but Sean Connery’s death puts it back on the agenda.

I’ll start...Monty was a short arse bastard who got lots of guys killed

Amirite?
Opposite of the truth.

If anything, Monty is often accused of being too cautious and over-protective of his men.

Patton is the fella who didn't seem to mind sacrificing his blokes for more personal glory and kudos.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by eldanielfire »

Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
Wasn't that 2nd one the plot to a Bond film as well?
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

MrDominator wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:07 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:37 pm Presumably this has been done before, but Sean Connery’s death puts it back on the agenda.

I’ll start...Monty was a short arse bastard who got lots of guys killed

Amirite?
Opposite of the truth.

If anything, Monty is often accused of being too cautious and over-protective of his men.

Patton is the fella who didn't seem to mind sacrificing his blokes for more personal glory and kudos.
I’ve heard that too

But in the context of Market Garden, I think differently
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by dinsdale »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:01 pm
ukjim wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm I’ll say what the Irish are too demure to say

British cavalry regiments were/are? full of cvnts

Sad to say it, but valid
as true today as it was in harry flashmans day.

what right minded fella wears scarlet cords?
A
Even in my own experience, I’ve got a story...(second hand, not me)

Young officer seconded to the regiment, runs up (because of ceremony, not because of self) huge mess bill

At the end of secondment, literally unable to pay bill, appeals to C.O

The chap whips out his chequebook and personally clears it for him, like it’s nothing
That sort of happened to a chap I knew. He was seconded to some posh regiment as an instructor for a couple of months. C.O. Says "do join in and enjoy yourself, if at the end of your stay your salary doesn't cover the mess bill, I'll pick it up"
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

dinsdale wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:01 pm
ukjim wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:49 pm I’ll say what the Irish are too demure to say

British cavalry regiments were/are? full of cvnts

Sad to say it, but valid
as true today as it was in harry flashmans day.

what right minded fella wears scarlet cords?
A
Even in my own experience, I’ve got a story...(second hand, not me)

Young officer seconded to the regiment, runs up (because of ceremony, not because of self) huge mess bill

At the end of secondment, literally unable to pay bill, appeals to C.O

The chap whips out his chequebook and personally clears it for him, like it’s nothing
That sort of happened to a chap I knew. He was seconded to some posh regiment as an instructor for a couple of months. C.O. Says "do join in and enjoy yourself, if at the end of your stay your salary doesn't cover the mess bill, I'll pick it up"
Sounds like a thing then

Not that surprising though. If (in modern times) we’re telling these stories, it shouldn’t shock us that those guys were portrayed drinking tea on the road to Arnhem in those days
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Woddy »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
DOB wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:53 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:43 pm Recently saw a couple of Polish war movies on Netflix.

Both recent but 50s level propaganda. Classic.
Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
At that time they were (quite literally) fighting for their homeland. So, I guess there’s the added element of determination to add to the skill. But they probably couldn’t claim additional combat experience, in that sense
They had already developed a deep hatred of the Germans which the Brits were still warming up to. That meant they took a more care-free approach to their own safety and more inclined to go into the thick of it off the cuff. That derring-do and their cheeky "repeat please" way of ignoring orders from the staid officers imposed on them, earned them enormous appeal with the British public, who are still waiting for Michael Caine to return to his faithful hound and young family.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Re: above comments about cavalry

To reinforce that view, I’ve read the source material for Band of Brothers.

The US paratroopers were diplomatic about all their foes and allies, except for British tank guys, who they thought were true blue cvnts, it seems.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

Woddy wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
DOB wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:53 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:45 pm

Please elaborate?

What was/is the Polish view of those things (outside of the obvious our-lads-did-well)?
In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
At that time they were (quite literally) fighting for their homeland. So, I guess there’s the added element of determination to add to the skill. But they probably couldn’t claim additional combat experience, in that sense
They had already developed a deep hatred of the Germans which the Brits were still warming up to. That meant they took a more care-free approach to their own safety and more inclined to go into the thick of it off the cuff. That derring-do and their cheeky "repeat please" way of ignoring orders from the staid officers imposed on them, earned them enormous appeal with the British public, who are still waiting for Michael Caine to return to his faithful hound and young family.
Good and insightful observation, thanks. :thumbup:
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Mullet 2 »

Monty was a Donegal Man
Same way Arthur was a Dub and Kitchy a Kerryman.

Cant let the Pigdogs actually run things themselves. Look at the bollocks they made of Brexit.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by dinsdale »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
DOB wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:53 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm

In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
At that time they were (quite literally) fighting for their homeland. So, I guess there’s the added element of determination to add to the skill. But they probably couldn’t claim additional combat experience, in that sense
They had already developed a deep hatred of the Germans which the Brits were still warming up to. That meant they took a more care-free approach to their own safety and more inclined to go into the thick of it off the cuff. That derring-do and their cheeky "repeat please" way of ignoring orders from the staid officers imposed on them, earned them enormous appeal with the British public, who are still waiting for Michael Caine to return to his faithful hound and young family.
Good and insightful observation, thanks. :thumbup:
I saw a documentary which made that point, it was an interview with a US pilot encountering the hatred of the Germans from the countries they invaded. He said the eastern european fighter pilots would do their best to kill the pilot as well as shooting down the plane and if that meant machine gunning the guy in his parachute the so be it.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by HighKingLeinster »

Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm Monty was a Donegal Man
Same way Arthur was a Dub and Kitchy a Kerryman.

Cant let the Pigdogs actually run things themselves. Look at the bollocks they made of Brexit.
Lions leading lambs :thumbup:
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Mullet 2 »

HighKingLeinster wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:39 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm Monty was a Donegal Man
Same way Arthur was a Dub and Kitchy a Kerryman.

Cant let the Pigdogs actually run things themselves. Look at the bollocks they made of Brexit.
Lions leading lambs :thumbup:
:lol:
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by danny_fitz »

Winnie wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:39 pm One of the greatest war time movies ever
The best bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Li65P_3lvM
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by danny_fitz »

Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:32 pm Monty was a Donegal Man
Same way Arthur was a Dub and Kitchy a Kerryman.

Cant let the Pigdogs actually run things themselves. Look at the bollocks they made of Brexit.
He had the dress sense of a Donegal man

Rommel on the other hand, he was a dapper chap who invented shabby chic in the desert.
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by BlackMac »

danny_fitz wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:41 pm
Winnie wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:39 pm One of the greatest war time movies ever
The best bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Li65P_3lvM
You beat me to it. Classic scene. The subtle look on the SS general's face when he gets the response is great. He knew the answer all along.
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

danny_fitz wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:41 pm
Winnie wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:39 pm One of the greatest war time movies ever
The best bit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Li65P_3lvM
Fantastic sequence,but apparently untrue. The hero guy (Hopkins character) refused to allow the filmmakers to use him in saying that, because he didn’t actually say it, and therefore the credit to him, was unwarranted

Proper, pukka hero. Respect
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Woddy »

shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Woddy wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:14 pm
shanky wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:57 pm
DOB wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:53 pm
Mullet 2 wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:48 pm

In the first one they won the Battle of Britain after teaching the stodgy Brits how to Dogfight

In the second they rescue a nuclear scientist from the Germans but half way through the Russians become the baddies.

Good stuff
"Taught them how to dogfight" is probably overselling it, but weren't the Polish pilots recognised at the time as being some of the best around?
At that time they were (quite literally) fighting for their homeland. So, I guess there’s the added element of determination to add to the skill. But they probably couldn’t claim additional combat experience, in that sense
They had already developed a deep hatred of the Germans which the Brits were still warming up to. That meant they took a more care-free approach to their own safety and more inclined to go into the thick of it off the cuff. That derring-do and their cheeky "repeat please" way of ignoring orders from the staid officers imposed on them, earned them enormous appeal with the British public, who are still waiting for Michael Caine to return to his faithful hound and young family.
Good and insightful observation, thanks. :thumbup:
The first half of my post was sincere and reflected on by their officers at the time. Every German they could kill was one less who could oppose the expected uprising in Warsaw, so they made sure they did their bit at great risk to themselves.

The second half was a tongue-in-cheek reference to their portrayal in the Battle of Britain film, although that could of course be based on truth. The reality I suspect is that the British public were either oblivious to or suspicious of Polish combatants over here; otoh, Polish officers were given a club of their own on Exhibition Road in Kensington which is still Polish to this day.

As for the OP, while the plan was Monty's so he should take ultimate blame for its over-ambition and failure (Dutch staff training before the war had something very similar as How Not To Invade Holland), there are plenty of other commanders who can take some of the blame too: Brereton in particular for blocking mass air-lifts right at the start that might have made it all possible. Rising politics between the top brass, especially Brit vs US, led to very bad coordination of plans before and during the operation. With hindsight, the biggest issue was bad intelligence that suggested the Germans in the area were more or less finished so the resistance along the main road in was unexpected and caused the fatal delays. In any event, it was fully expected that the airborne drops would have the same success that they had had in Normandy and that this punch would shorten the war by many months, hence saving lives. Monty had been shocked by his experience at Caens. That more negative spin is that he was chafing against US leadership within Allied command and wanted something to make the Brits generally and he in particular look better...
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by BlackMac »

As a young cop I discovered an old lad on my beat who had been in the 2nd Parachute Battalion and had been badly injured in the last hours before they surrendered. He had a large photo on his wall of his company, taken in the summer of 1944, he told me that less than 20 had survived Arnhem and captivity.
I used to pop in and have a blether every month or so for three years and he gave me an original shoulder patch which I still have. Kept in touch until he sadly passed away nearly 20 years ago and he was a truly inspiring old gent.
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

BlackMac wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:55 pm As a young cop I discovered an old lad on my beat who had been in the 2nd Parachute Battalion and had been badly injured in the last hours before they surrendered. He had a large photo on his wall of his company, taken in the summer of 1944, he told me that less than 20 had survived Arnhem and captivity.
I used to pop in and have a blether every month or so for three years and he gave me an original shoulder patch which I still have. Kept in touch until he sadly passed away nearly 20 years ago and he was a truly inspiring old gent.
Vale, old fella

This clip probably sums it up for him, in the words of Roy Urqhart

https://youtu.be/1j9kRciiD3E
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shanky
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by shanky »

@woddy

Good points but I’d contend that no thread is going to survive without a clearly defined villain

In this case, we’ve got Monty. :)
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Re: Let’s talk about ‘A Bridge Too Far’

Post by Margin_Walker »

Plan had plenty of problems, but if Gavin (and Browning given he was on the scene) had actually prioritised taking the bridge at Nijmegen rather than focus entirely on the Groesbeek Heights in the initial hours after landing it would likely have worked.
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